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View Full Version : [3.5/PF] A little bit of tier reworking [PEACH]



Jormengand
2013-05-17, 06:07 PM
Introduction:

This is a universal fix for the "tier system." If you don't know what that is, it's basically the fact that a wizard of any level above about 5 will murder a fighter of the same level. For more detail, see this. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0)

With that done and dusted, let's have a look at what this is. This is a fix for the tier system. How does one fix the tier system, one might ask? Well, you could go through and nerf magic a ton, or make physical attacks and combat manouevres (things like bull rush, not TOB) better... but then things psions would sail through untouched. There's always some non-standard way of being T1 - even Tome of Battle produces pretty high tiers.

Let's see what I want to do, first:

Aims:

What I definitely do want to do is:


Make it easier for low and high tier classes to play in the same game.
Make low tier classes a bit more exciting.
Make high tier classes a bit less unpredictable.
Curtail Wizards' abilities to destroy entire worlds.


What I don't want to do:


Make every class exactly the same.
Make level 1 fighters kill level 1 wizards even more easily.
Flip the tier system on its head.
Restrict T1-2 classes to be as boring as fighters are currently.


What I'm not really setting out to do:


Make every class equally powerful.
Put mage-hunters out of a job.


So, without futher ado:

The fix:

All right, so this is it. this is what you've all been waiting for.

The fix consists of applying additional class features to classes based on their tier.

If you multiclass, decide what the tier of the overall character is - for example, if you have 10 levels in a T2 class and levels 10 in a T4 prestige class, then you do not take 10 levels in the T2 table and 10 in the T4, you take 20 levels in the T3 one.

If you multiclass after character creation and change tier, immediately re-spec your tier-fix tables as necessary. Lose all tier features of your old tier, and gain the ones for your new tier and level.


Tier 1:
{table]Level|Effect
1|Power over skill, Unheroic, Strength of the Apprentice.
2|Glass cannon
3|Only one focus
4|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon
5|
6|Only one focus, Glass cannon
7|
8|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon
9|Only one focus
10|Glass cannon
11|
12|The true power is enough!, Only one focus, Glass cannon
13|
14|Glass cannon
15|Only one focus
16|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon
17|
18|Only one focus, Glass cannon
19|
20|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon[/table]

Power over skill (ex): The class is treated as having 1 fewer skill point than listed for all levels.

Unheroic (ex): The character does not gain a feat at first level except through being human or having a bonus feat.

Strength of the Apprentice: (ex) The character is treated as one level higher than he is for determining hit points (glass cannon is taken into effect) until fifth level.

Glass cannon (ex): The character does not roll a hit die this level, but still counts as having the hit die. CON takes effect as normal.

Only One Focus (ex): The character counts as not having levelled up for purposes of save progresion.

The True Power is Enough! (ex): The character does not have ability score progression at these levels, except from class features.

Tier 2:
{table]Level|Effect
1|Power over skill, Unheroic, Greater strength of the Apprentice.
2|
3|
4|Glass cannon
5|
6|Only one focus
7|
8|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon
9|
10|
11|
12|Only one focus, Glass cannon
13|
14|
15|
16|The true power is enough!, Glass cannon
17|
18|Only one focus
19|
20|Glass cannon[/table]

Power over skill (ex): The class is treated as having 1 fewer skill point than listed for all levels.

Unheroic (ex): The character does not gain a feat at first level except through being human or having a bonus feat.

Greater strength of the Apprentice: (ex) The character is treated as one level higher than he is for determining hit points (glass cannon is taken into effect) until sixth level.

Glass cannon (ex): The character does not roll a hit die this level, but still counts as having the hit die. CON takes effect as normal.

Only One Focus (ex): The character counts as not having levelled up for purposes of save progresion.

The True Power is Enough! (ex): The character does not have ability score progression at these levels, except from class features.

Tier 3:
{table]Level|Effect
1|
2|Weak
3|
4|
5|
6|
7|
8|
9|
10|Resolve
11|
12|
13|
14|
15|
16|
17|
18|
19|
20|[/table]

Weak (ex): From second level, the character has one fewer hit point each level, including the first.
Resolve (ex): The character has a +1 morale bonus to all saves.

Tier 4:
{table]Level|Effect
1|Skilled
2|
3|
4|Training
5|
6|
7|
8|Training
9|
10|Specialist
11|
12|Training
13|
14|
15|
16|Training
17|
18|
19|
20|Training, Specialist[/table]

Skilled (ex): The character class is treated as having 2 more skill points per level.

Training(ex): The character gains an extra ability score point to spend this level.

Specialist: The character may choose a skill, and gains a +3 bonus to that skill.

Tier 5:
{table]Level|Effect
1|Skilled
2|Bonus feat
3|
4|Training
5|Specialist
6|Bonus feat
7|
8|Training
9|
10|Specialist, Bonus feat
11|
12|Training
13|
14|Bonus feat
15|Specialist
16|Training
17|
18|Bonus feat
19|
20|Training, Specialist[/table]

Skilled (ex): The character class is treated as having 2 more skill points per level.

Training(ex): The character gains an extra ability score point to spend this level.

Specialist: The character may choose a skill, and gains a +3 bonus to that skill. This stacks with itself.

Bonus feat (ex): The character may choose any feat he/she meets the prerequisites for.

Tier 6:
{table]Level|Effect
1|Skilled, Specialist, Training
2|Bonus feat, Training
3|Specialist, Training
4|Training
5|Specialist, Training
6|Bonus feat, Training
7|Specialist, Training
8|Training
9|Specialist, Training
10|Specialist, Bonus feat, Training
11|Specialist, Training
12|Training
13|Specialist, Training
14|Bonus feat, Training
15|Specialist, Training
16|Training
17|Specialist, Training
18|Bonus feat, Training
19|Specialist, Training
20|Training, Specialist[/table]

Skilled (ex): The character class is treated as having 2 more skill points per level.

Training(ex): The character gains an extra ability score point to spend this level.

Specialist: The character may choose a skill, and gains a +3 bonus to that skill. This stacks with itself.

Bonus feat (ex): The character may choose any feat he/she meets the prerequisites for.

AuraTwilight
2013-05-17, 06:42 PM
This...doesn't do anything to "fix" Tiers. All it does is fiddle with numbers, when the strengths and weaknesses of the tiers come from the sheer versatility and amount of options a class has, and the competence they have at their different tricks.

Eldan
2013-05-17, 06:58 PM
Yeah, sorry. Those won't do much to change tiers. Maybe a bit, in the middle tiers. It will make casters a lot more obnoxious to play at the low levels, I grant you. At higher levels, they don't really lose anything relevant.

See, the thing is this. You could make a melee fighter with an ability called:

Kill Things (ex): as a swift action, you may touch a creature. That creature immediately dies. No resistances or immunities apply.

or

Mine's bigger (ex): You base attack bonus is +300 and you have 9001 hit points.

And it would still be tier 4, because it could still only do one thing.