Is the Fey Foundling feat OP?

[Frosty]

Feat is here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling

So...+2 vs death effects is nice...but the +2 per DICE of healing? Is it just me or this feat a bit too good?

[sonofzeal]

Feat is here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling

So...+2 vs death effects is nice...but the +2 per DICE of healing? Is it just me or this feat a bit too good?
With the way healing spells work, that's actually less powerful than "Augment Healing" from CDiv. It's the same for CLW/CMW/CSW/CCW, but less effective for the Mass versions, and doesn't do diddly for Big Granddaddy Heal. I'd say it's okay.

[Frosty]

I guess I'm just thinking that there's no reason for a PF paladin not to take this feat, or a PF Oracle/Paladin.

[tyckspoon]

I guess I'm just thinking that there's no reason for a PF paladin not to take this feat, or a PF Oracle/Paladin.

It's decent if you have a means of applying healing to yourself that comes primarily as d6s and that means of healing also isn't doing enough to help you. Which basically means an HP-tanking Paladin, I guess? Even then I don't think I can get excited enough about healing up to 18 more points of damage at very high levels to consider this feat overpowered.

[Frosty]

This feat basically Empowers a Lay on Hands (since the average healing per die is 3.5 healing). Well ok maybe this isn't OP, but it's pretty good.

[Vknight]

Seems like it would be great for a undead campaign for a cleric.
Heal all allies and damage the undead

[icefractal]

Seems like it would be great for a undead campaign for a cleric.
Heal all allies and damage the undeadIt only increases the healing you personally receive, not all healing that you channel/cast.

It's ... ok. As good as the majority of PF feats at least, which is not saying much. When I was revamping feats, I tried having Toughness double all healing you received. That was a bit too good (didn't break the game, but it was something that everybody wanted), but 1.5x would probably be fine.

It trips my "fiddlyness to payoff ratio" meter though. When you're giving a bonus to a very specific category like "vs death effects", it really should be +4 or higher; it's just not worth remembering a rare conditional for a 10% difference. +1 damage from cold iron, even more so.

[Frosty]

hmm...how prevalent are death effects anyways? I know a lot of save-or-dies are, like Phantasmal Killer...but does it really come into play that often?

[TuggyNE]

hmm...how prevalent are death effects anyways? I know a lot of save-or-dies are, like Phantasmal Killer...but does it really come into play that often?

Mostly at higher levels, I think. PK is basically the herald and banner-bearer of a whole slew of spells and monster abilities getting pretty fierce somewhere between level 12 and level 18, I'd guess.

[Vknight]

It only increases the healing you personally receive, not all healing that you channel/cast.

It's ... ok. As good as the majority of PF feats at least, which is not saying much. When I was revamping feats, I tried having Toughness double all healing you received. That was a bit too good (didn't break the game, but it was something that everybody wanted), but 1.5x would probably be fine.

It trips my "fiddlyness to payoff ratio" meter though. When you're giving a bonus to a very specific category like "vs death effects", it really should be +4 or higher; it's just not worth remembering a rare conditional for a 10% difference. +1 damage from cold iron, even more so.

Well now its not nearly as great.
Hmmmm
Lay on Hands with a Paladin with 16 Charisma

Level 2
1d6+2, 4/day

Level 4
2d6+4, 5day

That sounds fun

[SowZ]

It isn't OP since healing is lackluster in the first place. It is why feats that give a big boost to archery or TWF aren't OP since those fighting styles are weaker, anyway.

[CTrees]

Great on an Oradin build. Otherwise... eh.

[nedz]

This looks pretty lacklustre.
The HP boost looks OK, until people start casting spells from the vigour line or heal.
The save bonus is quite situational, though handy if it keeps you alive I suppose. This might happen two or three times in an entire campaign.
I would be surprised if there weren't better, must have, feats which you wanted at first level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

On a "tank" Paladin that's tanking the Right Way (TM) -- doing as much damage as possible with a 2H weapon so enemies are forced to pay attention to him -- it's not bad to supplement the swift action self-healing the paladin will be doing many combat rounds anyway.

Still not broken, but not bad.

Don't think it's good for anyone else.

[Akal Saris]

StreamOfTheSky has the right of it - looks good for a tanking paladin.

Theoretically, a cleric that "heal-tanks" with channel energy (and quicken channel so he can still do a standard action each round) would also work, though that would be a very niche build.

What else...hmm. Perhaps another build that would get some leverage out of this might be a magus, melee alchemist, or bard who took the eldritch heritage feat chain for a familiar, then upgraded it to an improved familiar such as an imp, which spends its rounds being invisible and UMDing a wand of cure light wounds on the main character. That would bump 1d8+1 to 1d8+3, almost like having DR 7/- as a tank.

Edit: Actually, couldn't one get the familiar as a paladin? That would double up on the benefit of this feat.

Sample build:

Half-Elf Paladin 10
1: Fey foundling
1: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) [B]
3: Power Attack
5: Furious Focus
7: Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)
9: Improved Familiar (one of the small angels)

- Ends up with lay on hands healing 5d6+10, and familiar healing 1d8+3. I put PA and Furious Focus in there since he'll need to be threatening enough to opponents for them to target him regularly.

[ericgrau]

I think healing is underrated in these forums, but I still think this feat isn't OP, only good. Don't worry about it.

[Frosty]

You don't need to be an elf or half elf to take the feat right?

[Snowbluff]

I don't think it's very good, but for a paladin, it's pretty awesome. It gives about 50% to the paladin's unlisted hp (which is what LoH effectively is). :smallcool:

[Frosty]

Now if there's only a way to change the healing dice to d4s or less but increase the number of dice :smallbiggrin:

Actually, what healing spells keep on adding more dice anyways? Cure Critical caps out at 4...

[TuggyNE]

Actually, what healing spells keep on adding more dice anyways? Cure Critical caps out at 4...

I'm not sure there even are any.

[JadePhoenix]

It isn't OP since healing is lackluster in the first place. It is why feats that give a big boost to archery or TWF aren't OP since those fighting styles are weaker, anyway.

Archery is weaker? Are you sure you're talking about Pathfinder?

[Slipperychicken]

Properly optimized, self-LoH will heal roughly half your hit points with a single Swift action. The Lay on Hands self-healing combo I'm familiar with (I don't recall where I picked it up, but it's not my creation) is as follows:

Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) Paladin, taking the racial favored class feature. This adds +1 per level to LoH healing, when used on himself. This race hurts your Charisma, but lets you dump Int and Dex harder to make up for it (not such a big deal, honestly).

Fey Foundling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling) will add 2 points of self-healing per die, from any source. This should must can only be taken at first level, so we'll take it then.

Greater Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-mercy) will add 1d6 to the normal LoH amount, if the target does not possess conditions removable with your mercies. We qualify at 3rd level, so we'll take it then.

Assuming a Paladin with 14 Constitution and average hp rolls after 1st level, his Lay on Hands will heal roughly half or more of his hit points per use. This will make him a wonderful damage-sponge, and far more resilient than most characters could ever hope to be. The fact this is a Swift action makes it all the sweeter, as the Paladin can relentlessly 2H power attack (LoH requires one hand, changing handedness is a free action), even while revitalizing himself.

2nd level: 1d6 + 4. Average result is 7.5, compared to total hp 19.5

4th level: 3d6+ 10. Average result is 20.5, compared to total hp 34.5

6th level: 4d6+ 14. Average result is 28, compared to total hp 49.5

8th level: 5d6+ 18. Average result is 35.5, compared to total hp 64.5

10th level: 6d6+ 22. Average result is 43, compared to total hp 79.5
[...]
20th level: 11d6+ 42. Average result is 80.5, compared to total hp 154.5 (probably more like 214.5 with a +6 Con item, but still).

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you're going to use Tiefling, you should go with Demon-spawned for +2 Str/Cha, -2 Int instead of normal tiefling ability mods. Yes, that's a pretty strange biological background for a LG Paladin.

[Frosty]

If you're going to use Tiefling, you should go with Demon-spawned for +2 Str/Cha, -2 Int instead of normal tiefling ability mods. Yes, that's a pretty strange biological background for a LG Paladin.
But, the Demon-spawned actually explains the weakness to Cold Iron quite well by happy circumstance! :smallcool:

[Slipperychicken]

If you're going to use Tiefling, you should go with Demon-spawned for +2 Str/Cha, -2 Int instead of normal tiefling ability mods. Yes, that's a pretty strange biological background for a LG Paladin.

Don't you need to take the Fiendish Heritage feat and then roll 4 on a d10 to get that? :smallconfused:

Your DM could let you choose Demon-Spawned without rolling, but you'd still need to add the feat at 1st level.


EDIT: Fiendish Heritage and Fey Foundling can't be combined. Both must be taken at 1st level, and Tieflings only have 1 feat then.

[CTrees]

I'm not sure there even are any.

Turns out there's really not a lot that has more than four dice for healing any given target in PF besides channeled energy and LoH. Greater Rejuvenate Eidolon and Breath of Life both use five dice. You could maybe make an argument on Fractions of Heal and Harm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fractions-of-heal-and-harm), depending upon how you counted dice. I don't think it would work, but... a lot of dice are rolled, and then healing happens, so... maybe? Depends on your Profession (Rules Lawyer) skill check.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't you need to take the Fiendish Heritage feat and then roll 4 on a d10 to get that? :smallconfused:

Your DM could let you choose Demon-Spawned without rolling, but you'd still need to add the feat at 1st level.


EDIT: Fiendish Heritage and Fey Foundling can't be combined. Both must be taken at 1st level, and Tieflings only have 1 feat then.

Maybe you do, but I'd just ask the DM to waive it because the entire premise of Fiendish Heritage is stupid (unless you want to do the d100 roulette wheel thing, I guess) for choosing a variant heritage. Aasimar has better stats (two good, none bad) and lets you choose their variant bloodlines without any feat at all. I think you only need the feat for the d100 variant options, but if the DM says no, you should at least attempt to call bs on him by pointing out how it works for Aasimar...

[Snowbluff]

Maybe you do, but I'd just ask the DM to waive it because the entire premise of Fiendish Heritage is stupid (unless you want to do the d100 roulette wheel thing, I guess) for choosing a variant heritage. Aasimar has better stats (two good, none bad) and lets you choose their variant bloodlines without any feat at all. I think you only need the feat for the d100 variant options, but if the DM says no, you should at least attempt to call bs on him by pointing out how it works for Aasimar...

I agree with this assessment. It says to seek GM adjudication in the text either way.

[SinsI]

Feat is here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling

So...+2 vs death effects is nice...but the +2 per DICE of healing? Is it just me or this feat a bit too good?
For plain 3.5, it is extremely weak. Note that Lay On Hands don't use DICE at all.
Thus, it heals you for extra +2 (CLW), +4 (CMW), +6 (CSW) or +8 (CCW) - not worth a feat at all.
Plain +2 to Fortitude (as most of Death Effects are Fortitude) is much, much better, as it doesn't expose you to extra +1 from cold weapons.

[Snowbluff]

It is extremely weak. Note that Lay On Hands don't use DICE at all.
Thus, it heals you for extra +2 (CLW), +4 (CMW), +6 (CSW) or +8 (CCW) - not worth a feat at all.
Plain +2 to Fortitude (as most of Death Effects are Fortitude) is much, much better, as it doesn't expose you to extra +1 from cold weapons.


Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.Am I missing something? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Lay-On-Hands-Su-)
:smallconfused:

[SinsI]

Am I missing something? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Lay-On-Hands-Su-)
:smallconfused:

Was looking at SRD for 3.5, not the Pathfinder version of Palading.

[SowZ]

Archery is weaker? Are you sure you're talking about Pathfinder?

Weaker then melee, yes. Guns, on the other hand...

[Frosty]

Weaker then melee, yes. Guns, on the other hand...
But didn't melee get nerfed a lot too? No more ridiculous Power Attack and Tripping...

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, this is a PF thread.

But didn't melee get nerfed a lot too? No more functional Power Attack and Tripping...

Fix that for you. Tripping just doesn't work... well... at all. UNLESS you are a mage with toppling spell.

[icefractal]

Actually, Power Attack isn't as bad as I first thought. Barring a way to avoid the penalty like Shock Trooper, the PF amount is as high as you'd want to go in most cases anyway, at least in the low-mid levels. At high levels - yeah. But martial characters have a lot of issues at high levels anyway.

Except Gunslingers. I've found them to be surprisingly effective in three different games, with the only house-rule being that your guns don't misfire with sufficient proficiency. In the longest running, the Gunslinger has reached the point where only overwhelming force or specific foe types will be a threat - usually caster territory.

[grarrrg]

I guess I'm just thinking that there's no reason for a PF paladin not to take this feat, or a PF Oracle/Paladin.

There is a reason Fey Foundling is considered the only _mandatory_ feat for an Oradin.

Outside of Oradin though...decidedly "meh".
The 'weakness' to Cold Iron will never really hurt that bad.
While the +Saves are nice, they are fairly narrow in what they apply to.
The Healing is the biggest boon, but if you are getting hurt enough that you feel you "need" this feat, then you're doing something wrong (excepting builds where you are TRYING to take all the damage, like the Oradin).

[Frosty]

I have a Paladin (Sacred Shield archetype) that I'm also giving the feat to.

Actually, Power Attack isn't as bad as I first thought. Barring a way to avoid the penalty like Shock Trooper, the PF amount is as high as you'd want to go in most cases anyway, at least in the low-mid levels. At high levels - yeah. But martial characters have a lot of issues at high levels anyway.So, is it Shock trooper that's OP?

[Glimbur]

So, is it Shock trooper that's OP?

In general, abilities that are balanced by a cost somewhere else become unbalanced if you remove or shift that cost to something less important. That's why Shock Trooper is so good, that's why metamagic is good with reducers, and there are probably other examples too.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, Power Attack isn't as bad as I first thought. Barring a way to avoid the penalty like Shock Trooper, the PF amount is as high as you'd want to go in most cases anyway, at least in the low-mid levels. At high levels - yeah. But martial characters have a lot of issues at high levels anyway.


It's also a matter of normalizing and balancing the damage, which PF Power Attack does pretty well. It still gives a good bonus, but doesn't allow abuse like True Strike + Full Power Attack.

It makes the feat easier to use, too. You don't have newer players wondering how much they should PA for; that work is done for them.

[Frosty]

In general, abilities that are balanced by a cost somewhere else become unbalanced if you remove or shift that cost to something less important. That's why Shock Trooper is so good, that's why metamagic is good with reducers, and there are probably other examples too.Which is also why I'm surprised PF has metamagic reducers. Casters don't need the help.