Upping the era in fantasy worlds

[ZeroGear]

Alright, I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but how would you advance the era in a Pathfinder game without rebalancing the entire system.
Just to avoid arguments, let me clarify:
As I see it, most D&D/Pathfinder games are set in essentially a pseudo-medival world where most habitual areas are governed by some form of Aristocracy or feudalistic form of government and areas the characters are sent to are ruins from ages past and/or unexplored regions where monsters make settling difficult. And I am perfectly alright with that. However, what if you moved the "era" of the setting from something similar to "528 AD" to something closer to "1500 AD" or even to "1800 AD". If a setting were put into the fantasy equivalent of the Victorian era, or even the era of the Wild West, how would that effect the general availability of weapons/armor/magic without drastically changing the core mechanics of the game?

As far as I have seen, the only changes I can find are that firearms become cheeper/more readily available, and that characters will have access to other modes of transportation (such as early cars, bicycles, and steam locomotives). But how would that affect the types of armor people wear? Or how would that change the selection of animal companions or even available classes/archetypes/prestige classes that would be most commonly found? And where would most of the adventures take place?

Could anyone offer any insight or thing of how things would change while keeping the core of the game the same?

[Rhynn]

In D&D/Pathfinder, you're sort of a slave to the rules. Wearing armor does not inconvenience you in significant ways. In real life, it is so uncomfortable to carry the weight that soldiers regularly ditch heavy inserts from their vests that are meant to stop or slow bullets, and many types of "full" plate armor left the legs unarmored because the risk of having your leg chopped or crippled off wasn't considered great enough to justify the weight.

PF has some rules for firearms ignoring armor, right? That might mean a slight decrease in how common armor is in periods more like the 17th century and onwards, but given that melee weapons are at least as good of an option, armor would still be important.

The 16th century, the early Renaissance, would be much easier. The differences are slighter. Armies become pike-dominated and handgonnes start to appear, but do not yet radically alter warfare.

You should note, though, that normal armor becomes easier to produce as time goes on: plate armor would become more common (munitions-grade plate was cheaper and faster to make than chain mail), especially because forges can be automated to a degree with technology.

Your question is so big, though, that it's very hard to quite answer. If you chose a specific level of technology (year or range of years and region), it'd probably be easier to give clear and specific answers.

[Salbazier]

What do you mean by core of the game? I you mean just mechanics, there isn't really a need to change to mechanics. If firearms become more prevalent, you just end up using firearms rule more. Maybe you would want to add new weapon enhancement or feats for firearms but that's it. New mode of transportation? Just ballpark it speed and done. With the existence of various magical vehicles and/or mounts, it is unlikely that adding new vehicle will unbalance the game.



Your question is so big, though, that it's very hard to quite answer. If you chose a specific level of technology (year or range of years and region), it'd probably be easier to give clear and specific answers.

What Rhynn said. Development of technology and culture depend on a lot factor. You cannot just slap Victorian Age or Wild West to a generic fantasy world and how it will look. For one thing, the culture and technology of that world not necessarily will go in the direction that produce Victorian or Wild West outlook. For another, a lot of D&D settings do not correlate with medieval age. Some may already have Victorian age outlook.

Increase of numbers of firearms is not necessarily true. What was firearms advantages again? Ease of training? But in a world like D&D having a legion of gunslingers may not as important in winning battles that having an high-level evoker.

[Berenger]

Standard D&D already is much closer to 1500+ AD than to 550 AD.

D&D doesn't do a good job at portraying different weapons and armors, so there will be no mechanical reason to drop armor. Hide armor will stop a bullet as easy as it stopped a club. If you want to mimic reality anyway, armorers will at first try to cope with firearms by making armor of better quality before armor is dropped in favor of mobility, "cheaper" troops and different tactics (skirmishing, heavy fortifications, trench warfare...).

[Jay R]

The biggest change is the scientific revolution - the belief that you can study the universe and understand the underlying principles that are universal, consistent, and eternal.

But in a game in which stone gargoyles can fly and people can cast magic spells, modern rules of physics and chemistry simply don’t apply. There aren’t 92 natural elements, lightning is not caused by an imbalance of electrical potential, and stars are not gigantic gaseous bodies undergoing nuclear fusion.

Mass and energy are clearly and obviously not conserved, gravity is not universal, and physical phenomena are capricious.

My assumption is that the principles of science can't apply in a world with conflicting panthea and cosmologies, because the principles of the universe aren't universal, consistent, and eternal.

You can develop stronger Fireballs at higher levels, usable by wizards, but you can't invent TNT usable by anybody who lights the fuse.

Therefore the world cannot advance from the High Middle Ages into the Renaissance.

[EccentricCircle]

A few people have talked about technology so I'll focus mainly on cultural changes. (Generalisation warning: People who know a lot about history will note that i'm talking in extremely broad strokes, please excuse generalisations)

You mention that the standard fantasy setting is a feudal society so think about how the feudal society changed in the real world's medieval europe, and how it ultimately fell apart.
You start with a situation where a few people have a lot of power, but the vast majority are serfs or peasants with little or no liberty or rights. the late middle ages see a shift away from this model with events like the peasants revolt establishing more rights for the common people. But there is also change at higher levels of society with the Barons gaining more power over things that were previously the domain of the king. these changes weren't easy, or swift. People fought for them and gradually over the course of generations the old order was eroded. at the same time the way warfare works is changing as well.

And its not all to do with guns. In the middle ages armies are led by a few knights, who are all noblemen. When the king needs themto they raise an army of peasants, equip them and fight for the king, thats the basis of the feudal system. However as warfare changes it is no longer practical for each vassle to bring an army of untrained soldiers to a battle. You start to see the development of the professional soldier, something which hasn't been as common since roman times. Cromwell's New model army is an excellent example of this.

You get to the point where the government has wrested a lot of power from the king, through things such as magna carta, and so the very idea of the divine right of kings is challenged. The Nobility begin to feel that they no longer need the monarch, and you get events like the Civil War in England and some time later the Revolutions in France, Ireland and beyond.

Republics start to be born. note that this isn't new per see, see Rome, but the age of absolute monarchy is crumbling, the monarchies that do survive become increasingly constitutional, rather than all powerful.

At the same time you have the Rennaisance and later the Enlightenment. People, initially nobles and clergy, start thinking about how the world actually works. You get people like Leonardo Da Vinci, Copernicus and Galilaeo. As more and more people actually begin to understand how the world works this threatens the power of the other great pillar of the medieval world, The Church. A scientific world view isn't a new idea, a lot of what happens in the rennaisance is that people start building upon the ideas of the ancient greeks. This was already happening in the middle east much earlier, during the golden age of Islam, but it takes Christian Europe longer to catch up. As the world becomes more comprehensible technology advances, and advanced in technology drive advances in scientific understanding.

But bear in mind that although science is now being conducted doesn't mean that mysticism is dead, Newton was a believer in Alchemy and was working on trying to create the philospher's stone while laying the foundations of modern physics. He also firmly believed that he could predict the apoclaypse through interpretations of scripture.

The invention of the printing press revolutionises the way knowledge is disseminated and has a far more profound effect on the world than the invention of the canon.

As you move into early modern times the societal changes that started at the top are percolating down. Where before the nobility has challenged the divine rights of the royalty now the common people are challenging the role of the nobility. Anarchisam and Marxism become important forces in the world, with a much more significant grass routes support than has been seen before. Nationalism also becomes an important force and very much shapes the history of the 19th century in places like Germany and Italy.

Basically the sorts of conflicts that are present within the world change as the King and Church cease to be the most powerful driving force. But its a slow and gradual evolution rather than a sudden paradigm shift from a medieval world view to an early modern one.

[Rhynn]

You can develop stronger Fireballs at higher levels, usable by wizards, but you can't invent TNT usable by anybody who lights the fuse.

Therefore the world cannot advance from the High Middle Ages into the Renaissance.

This actually suggests a theme I like: the fantasy world evolves and the gods (and magic in general) slowly fade into the background. Which causes which can be unclear, but they become less important as technology and science become more important...

[Salbazier]

The biggest change is the scientific revolution - the belief that you can study the universe and understand the underlying principles that are universal, consistent, and eternal.

But in a game in which stone gargoyles can fly and people can cast magic spells, modern rules of physics and chemistry simply don’t apply. There aren’t 92 natural elements, lightning is not caused by an imbalance of electrical potential, and stars are not gigantic gaseous bodies undergoing nuclear fusion.

Mass and energy are clearly and obviously not conserved, gravity is not universal, and physical phenomena are capricious.

My assumption is that the principles of science can't apply in a world with conflicting panthea and cosmologies, because the principles of the universe aren't universal, consistent, and eternal.

Huh? :smallconfused: I thought science are falsifiable knowledge gained through observation and experiment? Why are those factors necessary at all? Consistency perhaps, but I'm not sure on the others.

Looking at wikipedia, Scientic revolution are based on the assumption that there is an objective reality shared by all observer. This is not the same with universality, so long what means by universality here is universality in regards to time and location. Even the necessity of all observers sharing same experience is a bit debatable. For example, in morphic plane the direction of gravity is subjective, but different observers on the same plane observe gravity in different direction, every observer observe the law/phenomeno 'gravity are subjective' the same way. Therefore there is still an objective reality shared by all observer.

Eternity are not necessary either. Even if a natural law changes, so long as the change remain observable and every observer observe the same change then scientific principles can still apply. To illustrate, if suddenly tomorrow the value of G (gravity constant) changes it doesn't mean science cannot be applied again in this reality.

Consistency, okay this is necessary. But is it true that the natural laws in D&D settings are inconsistent?



You can develop stronger Fireballs at higher levels, usable by wizards, but you can't invent TNT usable by anybody who lights the fuse.


Untrue. See Necklace of Fireball.

[Xuc Xac]

However, what if you moved the "era" of the setting from something similar to "528 AD" to something closer to "1500 AD" or even to "1800 AD". If a setting were put into the fantasy equivalent of the Victorian era, or even the era of the Wild West, how would that effect the general availability of weapons/armor/magic without drastically changing the core mechanics of the game?

D&D is already "528 to 1500AD". In 528, a knight would have a horse, a chain shirt, a big shield, and a spear. In 1500AD, he would have a suit of full plate, a much bigger horse, a smaller shield, and a lance (and probably a pair of pistols among other sidearms). The weapons and armor on the equipment list cover over a thousand years of development. Most of them weren't in use at the same time in the real world, but they're all mixed up in D&D.

Also, the "Wild West" was during the Victorian Era. Victorian novels commonly feature an American cowboy as an "exotic foreigner". The most famous was probably Quincey Morris the Bowie-wielding Texan who helped kill Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel.

[ZeroGear]

Alright, a lot of you have pointed out that I need to clarify a few things here, so let me clear some stuff up:

-Core of the game:
When I talk about the "core" mechanics of the game, I am not just talking about the rules. What I (and admittedly I thought most others) consider the "core" is the idea of groups of adventurers going though quests and getting rewards. By this, I mean that the classical roles still exist: the heavy-hitting fighters, the clerical healers, the crowd-controlling mages, and the skill-oriented rogues. What I want to know is how one could change the world to something that feels like the 16-1800's while keeping much of how the game works the same.
As such, I want to know things like: where would these groups go adventuring? Who or what would they most commonly face? How would the background of each one change? Things like that.

-Firearms and armor:
For this, I am using the rules of the Ultimate Combat Firearms, because they seem to work best. If I were to change the level from "Emerging Guns" to either "Commonplace Guns" or "Guns Everywhere", that would probably affect who has access to firearms, thus (I imagine) causing a slight change of focus for some classes. Since almost all firearms hit touch AC rather than regular AC within a certain number of range increments, I would think that this would cause some people to rethink the gear they have (and for the sake of simplicity, let us put aside real-world armor physics, ok?). How do you guys think gear would change?

-Classes and Archetypes:
Similar to how changing times affect gear choices, I imagine it would also affect the prominent classes/archetypes in the setting. Thus, I would like to hear what you think the more common classes would be. (using Pathfinder as a basis, but open to other systems) would Spellslingers be more common than the traditional Wizard? Would Holy Guns take the place of regular Paladins? How would this affect the choices of a Rogue's Talent's? Would Barbarians still be around? How about the animals a Druid chooses as a companion?

Hope this helps with my previous question.

[DisasterArea42]

if you are going to change how d&d handles changes in a way similar to the real world, probably the biggest thing would be making magic usable by mundane characters easily. That would probably start with a mage of some sort making a business selling fireball wands for huge chucks of money. then another would make fireball wands for less money or maximizing it and charging more. Eventually, someone would figure out that while fireballs are cool, magic missiles are cheaper and more accurate.

The magic missile wand producer would be the early rifle maker as opposed to the fireball maker being the guy selling smooth bore guns.

of course, tactics would change with the introduction of new weaponry. mass produced fireball wands would mean less fighters, more rogues and have them spread out to avoid the fireballs. as the mage weaponmakers create newer and better tools for the silly mundanes to kill each other with, the UMD DCs would keep dropping (all the fighter 20s died when they faced a bunch of rogue 20s with a ton of fireball wands, rogue 20s died when the other guy got more rogue 10s with more magic missile wands, and so on) to fit the larger numbers of soldiers with equipment that needs less training time (aka lower leveled rogues). Eventually, you'll have commoners that dump points into UMD so they can get a military issue wand of maximized enlarged scorching ray for cottage defense.

[Narren]

if you are going to change how d&d handles changes in a way similar to the real world, probably the biggest thing would be making magic usable by mundane characters easily. That would probably start with a mage of some sort making a business selling fireball wands for huge chucks of money. then another would make fireball wands for less money or maximizing it and charging more. Eventually, someone would figure out that while fireballs are cool, magic missiles are cheaper and more accurate.

The magic missile wand producer would be the early rifle maker as opposed to the fireball maker being the guy selling smooth bore guns.

of course, tactics would change with the introduction of new weaponry. mass produced fireball wands would mean less fighters, more rogues and have them spread out to avoid the fireballs. as the mage weaponmakers create newer and better tools for the silly mundanes to kill each other with, the UMD DCs would keep dropping (all the fighter 20s died when they faced a bunch of rogue 20s with a ton of fireball wands, rogue 20s died when the other guy got more rogue 10s with more magic missile wands, and so on) to fit the larger numbers of soldiers with equipment that needs less training time (aka lower leveled rogues). Eventually, you'll have commoners that dump points into UMD so they can get a military issue wand of maximized enlarged scorching ray for cottage defense.

New Wand Control laws will stipulate the caster level and number of charges that are available in wands produced for public us :)

[Katasi]

if you are going to change how d&d handles changes in a way similar to the real world, probably the biggest thing would be making magic usable by mundane characters easily. That would probably start with a mage of some sort making a business selling fireball wands for huge chucks of money. then another would make fireball wands for less money or maximizing it and charging more. Eventually, someone would figure out that while fireballs are cool, magic missiles are cheaper and more accurate.

The magic missile wand producer would be the early rifle maker as opposed to the fireball maker being the guy selling smooth bore guns.

of course, tactics would change with the introduction of new weaponry. mass produced fireball wands would mean less fighters, more rogues and have them spread out to avoid the fireballs. as the mage weaponmakers create newer and better tools for the silly mundanes to kill each other with, the UMD DCs would keep dropping (all the fighter 20s died when they faced a bunch of rogue 20s with a ton of fireball wands, rogue 20s died when the other guy got more rogue 10s with more magic missile wands, and so on) to fit the larger numbers of soldiers with equipment that needs less training time (aka lower leveled rogues). Eventually, you'll have commoners that dump points into UMD so they can get a military issue wand of maximized enlarged scorching ray for cottage defense.

This actually sounds like a fun basis for a campaign.

[ZeroGear]

@DesasterArea42:
So tell me, where do all these wands come from?
Going by standard rules, you can only make 1 wand per day even at the highest character level. Somehow it doesn't seem very economical to mass-produce wands, especially in 3.5 where you have to pay xp for each one (and no, you cannot create a wand-making factory without a viable reason).
Other than that, it's a really cool idea.

[DisasterArea42]

This actually sounds like a fun basis for a campaign.
Don't forget the mandatory Dirty Harry reference.

Did I expend 50 charges or only 49? Well, to be honest, in all this excitement, I kinda lost track myself. But seeing how this is a Wand of Polar Ray, the most powerful Evocation spell in the world, you just gotta ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky ? Well, punk, do ya?

New Wand Control laws will stipulate the caster level and number of charges that are available in wands produced for public us :) The government is just trying to steal my magic. Lets see those lousy politicians try and rip my wand from my cold dead hands!

[hiryuu]

Hmm. Already do this with my home campaign, what with it being inspired more by 1930s America than medieval Europe, but I stopped using D&D as a system entirely and switched to M&M for easier management.

The core basis for technology in the setting is based on either the understanding of the interactions between magical energies and the physical world, or the complex series of contracts and deals that hold the physical world together. Energy sources powered by spirits, pledged obligation, or the diffusion of energy across the gaps between worlds are the primary sources of gathering energy. In short form, spellcasting is practiced by earning enough respect to prove to the world that it should listen to you.

But, uh, let's see - large scale robotics (golem technology), communication, television, and so on are all accomplished by spiritual contraptions that look superficially like retro-future tech of the type we imagined in the 1930s-1950s.

As a bonus: Because a television in that setting works by a network on non-sentient spirits acting out instructions they receive from a longer spirit chain, television channels can still be playing at odd hours, and if you're out far enough in the boonies, they messages get "corrupted," and the spirits, not knowing (and incapable of knowing) exactly why humans are doing the things they do, "fill in" the blank spots like any game telephone, so rather than getting signal corruption in the form of snow, you get signal corruption in the form of what you're watching becoming ever more dreamlike and surreal the farther away you get from the signal source. Radio does the same thing.

There's a lot more to the setting, but suffice to say that anything they have resembling our technology only superficially does so.



In the case of D&D, I'd thought about it - making bank vaults and combination locks complicated spell layers, making all carriages powered by summoned elementals, and even having "computers" made of spell-trigger effects. Even a "soul tax" using a magic item similar to a thought bottle to squirrel away 1 or 2 xp from every citizen once a year to be divvied out among companies and guilds constructing magical public works. All this under the assumption that anyone above 5th level is impossible or super rare outside of PCs.

[DisasterArea42]

@DesasterArea42:
So tell me, where do all these wands come from?
Going by standard rules, you can only make 1 wand per day even at the highest character level. Somehow it doesn't seem very economical to mass-produce wands, especially in 3.5 where you have to pay xp for each one (and no, you cannot create a wand-making factory without a viable reason).
Other than that, it's a really cool idea.

Mostly, Rule of Cool. Even though the rules wouldn't support everything I said, the basic idea would still stand. Eventually someone would figure out that magic makes for better warriors than a bunch of muscle bound ruffians and magic would start becoming more common. With more NPC clerics buffing the frontline troops, there is more access to things like Create Food and Water, which allows for the commoners to have more time to learn a craft. This would mean more NPC Experts and less reliance on subsistance farming. You could even justify having some Experts researching ways to mimic magic effects with mundane items. Dynamite makes a pretty handy replacement for your standard fireball.

All acheived through a few kingdoms hiring twice as many spell-slingers as swordsmen for their wars.

[ZeroGear]

Mostly, Rule of Cool. Even though the rules wouldn't support everything I said, the basic idea would still stand. Eventually someone would figure out that magic makes for better warriors than a bunch of muscle bound ruffians and magic would start becoming more common. With more NPC clerics buffing the frontline troops, there is more access to things like Create Food and Water, which allows for the commoners to have more time to learn a craft. This would mean more NPC Experts and less reliance on subsistance farming. You could even justify having some Experts researching ways to mimic magic effects with mundane items. Dynamite makes a pretty handy replacement for your standard fireball.

All acheived through a few kingdoms hiring twice as many spell-slingers as swordsmen for their wars.

Flat out, I'll say no more "rule of cool" here. Has to be supportable by the system's rules.
So less commoners and more experts? I can understand that. Would that be influenced by things like crop rotation and combined farmland?

[Katasi]

Flat out, I'll say no more "rule of cool" here. Has to be supportable by the system's rules.
So less commoners and more experts? I can understand that. Would that be influenced by things like crop rotation and combined farmland?

PF item creation wuld not only allow it, but support it. Also some of the options in the UA, or house rules.

[ZeroGear]

PF item creation wuld not only allow it, but support it. Also some of the options in the UA, or house rules.

Elaborate please; in simple, easy-to-understand words so that even an idiot like myself will understand.

[Salbazier]

Maybe he means since you don't have to spend XP for crafting under PF rules, mass wand-making is more profitable?

Should have mention this earlier, but take a look at Eberron. It is the kind of setting where magic is more commonplace and applied in daily life of everyday people (Everbright lanterns for streetlight, lightning rails, food service using purify food & drink & Heroes' Feast, Arcane mark to seal official documents, sending as telegram-analogue, magebred horses, ect, ect)

Eberron also has NPC class magewright,which indicate and allow more people having access to magic. There are also eternal wands and schema. While they usable only one to three times per day, they can be used for as long as it last instead of having unrenewable charges. Items like this would help with the economical cost producing a lot of wands for public use since in the long runt they are cost-efficient.

And classic adventuring style are very much still valid in Eberron.

[Yora]

I think Pathfinder already looks very 1800 by default. Especially the Golarion setting. Forgotten Realms is a bit earlier. Always looks a lot like the Three Musketeers era to me (~1620).

[JusticeZero]

@DesasterArea42:
So tell me, where do all these wands come from?
Going by standard rules, you can only make 1 wand per day even at the highest character level. Somehow it doesn't seem very economical to mass-produce wands, especially in 3.5 where you have to pay xp for each one (and no, you cannot create a wand-making factory without a viable reason).
Other than that, it's a really cool idea.
PF, which also contains the Gunslinger class, removes the XP cost. And while items cannot in that game be MASS produced, the fact that you get a bit of time counted on item creation on adventuring days indicates that you can crowd-produce. This is, however, running counter to the industrialist capitalist trend that shaped modern society, which seems like it could start to cascade into a more difficult exercise than just "wizards in cars".

[DisasterArea42]

So less commoners and more experts? I can understand that. Would that be influenced by things like crop rotation and combined farmland?

Pretty much, although if you introduce more clerics capable of casting Create Food and Water you have even less need for Farming in general. It helps that in Core 3.5, a 5th level cleric can do most of what Jesus could. Even purify food and drink would allow expansion into areas with dirty water and make people healthier. In fact, a cleric 5 would be able to make 50 gallons of water per day, summon 4 animals to help cultivate land or provide protection for commoners, and provide a day's food and water for 30 people. Farmers wouldn't need to rely on the harvest for all of their food, allowing them to experiment with things like crop rotation. And with a potential 50 gallons of water on standby every day, they would be able to keep plants growing in adverse conditions like a drought.

I wasn't actually aware of the PF wand creation rules, but if that lets you wave off the exp cost then it wouldn't be too crazy to think someone would start ordering them in bulk. And I could see a Lawful Evil Lich setting up a sweatshop of lower leveled casters making nothing but wands and selling them for a handsome profit. Nothing quite as evil as capitalism.

[ZeroGear]

Since we all have talked so much about the physics and technology aspects, can we put that in the back pocket for now and take a look at culture and other aspects that would change? Please?

[QuintonBeck]

In my mind one of the biggest aspects of Europe following the late middle ages was the first beginning expansion and colonization done by the Western world. The Dark Ages had kept people sick and populations small and mostly stupid and as such unwilling and uninterested in exploration and lacking any real need for expansion. However, once health got better and people began to prosper neighboring kingdoms looked more appetizing for the taking as well as the unknown suddenly becoming a curiosity rather than a fear.

In the campaign I'm running now, which is semi-low magic, this is the era of the world and the PCs are adventurers looking to escape the mainland (analogue-Europe) and go to the new colonies the nations established on the new continent they found a while ago (think American colonies sort of) That has been a good adventuring area. Low technology area despite a higher technology setting.

The general concept for fun Dungeon Crawling D&D games should you wish to up the era is, I believe, making them frontiersman/explorers. Not to say a Victorian/modern city game wouldn't be fun, I'd love to play one (though I'd loathe to run one myself) but if you wanna keep what I find to be the spirit of D&D in tact as you move forward chronologically stick the characters facing the metaphorical West and let them go.

[Yora]

I think Health-wise, the Dark Ages actually were one of the better times in Europe. After that you got cities and pre-industrial mass economy. Those are reall killers for the health of common people. And of course plague.
Farming villages really were a lot healthier places to live where you got good food and sanitation.

[Spiryt]

In my mind one of the biggest aspects of Europe following the late middle ages was the first beginning expansion and colonization done by the Western world. The Dark Ages had kept people sick and populations small and mostly stupid and as such unwilling and uninterested in exploration and lacking any real need for expansion. However, once health got better and people began to prosper neighboring kingdoms looked more appetizing for the taking as well as the unknown suddenly becoming a curiosity rather than a fear.
.

???

Even if it was true, those 'sick' people had actually reached the Americas, for example. It's confirmed.

'Dark Ages' were actually period when 'appetizing neighboring kingdoms' were pretty much among only ways to get rich. Different than in 15th century.

Actual 16th century colonization that happened centuries later was possible due to state in which European monarchies were - so political organism that could pay for ,organize, protect etc. those enterprises. For their own benefits, of course.

Large ships and other sailing technologies, people educated in geography etc.

Sickness, stupidity, 'curiosity' of general humble people had little to do with it, just as health and thought horizons of average office worker or taxi driver today have about 0% influence on space programs today.

[QuintonBeck]

You're right, I'm not much of a historian, especially pre-industrial. Odd for a D&D enthusiast maybe, but still.

My general point remains, keeping PCs on the frontier is a good way to keep adventures feeling D&Desque I think and frontiers are one of the things that changes as eras change.

[Jay R]

Huh? :smallconfused: I thought science are falsifiable knowledge gained through observation and experiment? Why are those factors necessary at all? Consistency perhaps, but I'm not sure on the others.
...
Consistency, okay this is necessary. But is it true that the natural laws in D&D settings are inconsistent?

Mass and energy aren't conserved; momentum is not conserved; gravity is not universal; Entropy is not inherently increasing.

The cube square law doesn't work. Different species can breed.

Observation and experiment to learn the universal gravitation constant is meaningless if gravity is neither universal nor constant.

[Gnoman]

A world where magic works might not have the same laws of physics that the observed world does. That does not mean that the scientific is worthless, or than you are perpetually locked into a pseudo-midieval technology level.


In any case, there's no reason why a DND world can't follow the same physical laws. If magic draws upon some source of energy, even if that source is effectively infinite, then the classical laws of thermodynamics work perfectly. Likewise, the square-cube law only prevents giants and dragons if you insist that the only possible composition of flesh and bone is identical to that which humans are made up of. Stronger and/or lighter bones would eliminate this.

[ZeroGear]

I can see another pseudo-scientific slap fight about how magic works coming here, and that is not something that needs to happen.
So far, aside from the "prevalence of wands" and "less commoners and more experts" ideas, no one has actually given any reasonable suggestion as to how culture would develop in settings with a more advanced time frame than classical D&D. Is that because you all enjoy bashing each other with magi-scientific ideas or is it because no one has any idea as to how cultures develop?

In either case, if arguing about how the laws of magic is all that's going to happen, then I'm severely disappointed in the content. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong on this?

[hiryuu]

I can see another pseudo-scientific slap fight about how magic works coming here, and that is not something that needs to happen.
So far, aside from the "prevalence of wands" and "less commoners and more experts" ideas, no one has actually given any reasonable suggestion as to how culture would develop in settings with a more advanced time frame than classical D&D. Is that because you all enjoy bashing each other with magi-scientific ideas or is it because no one has any idea as to how cultures develop?

In either case, if arguing about how the laws of magic is all that's going to happen, then I'm severely disappointed in the content. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong on this?

No, it's because it's going to depend very heavily on the culture and the way magic develops. It's going to develop case by case and it's going to be very different over very short distances. Just look at the vast cultural differences between, say, medieval Spain and Europe. You know if the Siege of Constantinople went the other way the Americas might very well haven't been discovered until well into the 1800s, for example? Or if Dynastic Egypt had a little bit more usable land we might all be using their mythology as our base rather than Greece and Rome?

Cultural development occurs on an extremely individual basis.

That said, certain forms of magic may be dependent on culture - you'll note that in my post I said as such. If your magic requires contracts or entreaties to other entities, like gods or spirits, your culture will be defined by that. It's actually a complain I have about D&D in general - even the most devout D&D clerics are just offering lip service compared to the complexities of real world religions and cultures. It's something that SHOULD be focused on some more. I had a batch of new players once who ran into an alien moment to them when they witnessed a rite in which they had a cleric, pretending to be Nerull, come in and kill a cleric dressed as Obad-Hai during a seasonal festival and the locals did nothing but cheer. They were Obad-Hai worshipers, sure, but killing Obad-Hai every year to signify the change in winter is what Nerull does. But they got hung up there, because they didn't expect what was a one-sentence aside in a book to turn into a shadow play that the people acted out every year in thanks to their gods. Gods who - I might add - have a real, active presence in the world where they exist.

So, talking about what magic is and how it works, or at least, how they THINK it works, is what you have to do before you start trying to figure out how the culture is going to react to it.

[ZeroGear]

Ah, thank you. Real hard facts with an example for clarification. This is what I was looking for.
Sorry if you have taken this the wrong way, but I didn't want this thread to turn into an argument as to how magic works in a fantasy setting (mostly because it tends not to be very relevant to the adventure in most cases; though there may be exceptions). What you gave was more of an example of how religion and festivals may interact, which I am looking for.
As an example:
I know that during the California Gold Rush people tended to have a church in almost every town that would hold mass on Sunday. However, this is in a world with only a single religion, so how would this be different in a world where there isn't just one 'god', but multiple gods that actually influence the world on a daily basis (although I am personally fond of the 'distant gods' concept)?

Similarly, how do you think that the presence of magic would influence the development of colleges and universities, and who would attend such institutes?

These are the kinds of 'fluff' answers I seek to answer here.

[Salbazier]

I can see another pseudo-scientific slap fight about how magic works coming here, and that is not something that needs to happen.
So far, aside from the "prevalence of wands" and "less commoners and more experts" ideas, no one has actually given any reasonable suggestion as to how culture would develop in settings with a more advanced time frame than classical D&D. Is that because you all enjoy bashing each other with magi-scientific ideas or is it because no one has any idea as to how cultures develop?

In either case, if arguing about how the laws of magic is all that's going to happen, then I'm severely disappointed in the content. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong on this?

Principle of science not law of magic (yes, pedantic I know). I'm slightly miffed that you accuse not just me but other posters as just bashing people and not giving any ideas. :smallannoyed: Maybe you can put my examples of daily magical appliance as 'prevalence of wands' but I did try to engage you, you know and I already question you from the beginning about specific culture. Plus, Quinton et al above was arguing about health which is new.

Also, seriously? 2 posts by Jay, 1 by me, and 1 by gnoman. That what 'you called enjoyed bashing each other'? By your first sentence, I'm already willing to drop the argument but you just have to bash people, don't you? And none of us three was saying anything that even remotely insulting.

tl;dr: If you think people are 'bashing' each other don't escalate the bashing/try asking nicely first.

I'll adress your examples later.

EDIT: I forgot that we were talking about item creation rules before. I was assuming that your post above was made in regards to Jay''s response to me and Gnoman's post.

[BWR]

You have settings like Dragonstar where they say "Science lets us learn the laws of the universe. Magic lets us break those laws."
So you have a SF setting with lasers and plasma guns and spaceships and rockets, but need magic to go FTL or create infinite energy.


. However, this is in a world with only a single religion,
Say what? Think carefully about what you just wrote.
And even within those sects of religions which are supposedly the same there are drastic differences in opinions about what is right and what isn't.


so how would this be different in a world where there isn't just one 'god', but multiple gods that actually influence the world on a daily basis
A lot easier to know where you stand with them for starters. When the priests actually get powers based on dedication to real beings, you can be pretty damn sure that the precepts they preach are the ones they practise and the ones that the god actually wants. It would be a lot harder for the priests of a loving and forgiving god to get away with self-interested abuse of parishoners because they would lose their powers.
Of course, many gods aren't nice.

[Salbazier]

I know that during the California Gold Rush people tended to have a church in almost every town that would hold mass on Sunday. However, this is in a world with only a single religion, so how would this be different in a world where there isn't just one 'god', but multiple gods that actually influence the world on a daily basis (although I am personally fond of the 'distant gods' concept)?


How this relate to the issue of development? I mean current D&D settings already have multiple gods despite having medieval/rennaissance outlook (which IRL Europe only has one). So this question apply more in regards to the current cultural stage.

How it would look? Varies. Each town can still have one church with the gods worshipped en mass, multiple churches in each town (probably just shrines though since unlikely for small town to have enough resource to build to many churches), or each town would worship specific patron god of said town. Basically it would look like how it was in real world places where polytheistic are dominant really.

And people would still be as devout, in fact even more devout (obvious miracle and all).

This is mostly status quo though. In a scenario like gold rush, eh I'm not familiar with US history but gold rush help encourage people to expand and build more settlements isn't it? A expansion attracted by promise probably attracts gods related to wealth. Like Abadar, to use a Golarion example. Maybe also Asmosdeus, since IIRC his portofolio includes contracts. Since churches and culture related to these gods are very bussiness-like (priest of Abadar would not heal for example) it would possibly encourage development of culture that have strong value of bussines and entepreneurship, whether capitalism or mercantilism, strong value of formality (due all of those contracts), and stress a lot of importance in pledge and contracts.

Much later, provided this region's economy continue to grow (how did IRL gold rush ended, BTW?) and its industry diversifies, it would be a likely place from which modern business model and economic theory develop.



Similarly, how do you think that the presence of magic would influence the development of colleges and universities, and who would attend such institutes?


It would not be much different I think. After all, there is already magical universities in most D&D settings. Concept of university/college itself already exist from way back in the ancient times.

Who would attend such institutes? Those who have enough money to
attend I guess. Deeper answer require deeper information/assumption about the setting/culture in question.

For example, a culture which discriminate on gender would likely to forbid one gender from studying in university. But, magical talent (usually) don't discriminate based on gender and it would be foolish for a nation to throw the advantages gained from having more magic users. Especially if by this era magic has been applied widely (again like Eberron). So, assuming those in charge are practical enough, magical universities would be more egalitarian than the rest of the society. At worst there is specified departement for man and woman like warmage academy is male-only or Healer's academy is female only.

Does that look like what you are looking for?

EDIT: Magic may changes the methods of education much like how technology changes it. For example, I have this vision of a mage who teaches her class by drawing diagrams, pictures, and moving 3-D illustration made using Image line of spells just like teachers nowadays would use Powerpoint. Two-way scrying pool or telepathic bond allows for long-range tutoring. Things like that.

[Jay R]

I can see another pseudo-scientific slap fight about how magic works coming here, and that is not something that needs to happen.

Insult received. I wasn't trying to fight about how magic works, but to give my reason why it would prevent a scientific revolution. My primary answer to your question is that it is not likely to happen. And that is in fact a valid answer, even if you disagree.


Is that because you all enjoy bashing each other with magi-scientific ideas or is it because no one has any idea as to how cultures develop?

No, it's because I have way too many ideas about how cultures develop. Even without the complicating fact of magic. The introduction of technology to the world did in fact lead to such wildly different results as a scientific revolution and enlightenment, African colonialism, and the Cargo Cult, not to mention the far more subtle reactions of Japan, India, etc.

I can't answer in any simple way how a culture without magic would develop as its scientific knowledge grew; how could I possibly answer how magic would change it?


In either case, if arguing about how the laws of magic is all that's going to happen, then I'm severely disappointed in the content. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong on this?

I would never run such a game. It misses the flavor of fantasy that I come to magic games for, and the feeling of a specific culture that I come to games like Flashing Blades for.

But if I did, I would pick a particular type of cultural reaction for its story purposes, since I know it's impossible to decide the one reaction people would have. Here are a few ideas.

1. Consider the Cargo Cult. People in a small island in the Pacific had no contact with the modern world until the island became important in Word War II. They saw both Japanese and Americans build airstrips, and then great birds (planes) came out of the sky bringing them goods and riches called "cargo". When the soldiers left, no more cargo appeared. So the islanders concluded that the airstrips were appeals to the gods for gifts, and built their own crude airstrips in the hope that the gods would send them some cargo.

Similarly, if a single area develops industry or science, the other lands would assume that they had found a new type of magic, and people would likely try to become "First-level scientists", expecting to be able to memorize a single first level technology each day. But since magic does exist, it might work in some twisted way. Or some chaotic god might choose to grant them powers that mimic some aspects of the science developing elsewhere.

[Note that the wizards' view of muggle science in the Harry Potter books approaches this.]

2. Assume some wizard is starting to understand science. Can he combine his magic with scientific principles to achieve greater effects? How much harder is a magnetic bolt than a Lightning Bolt, and what happens to a unit of knights, all of whose arms and armor are now magnetic? I suspect that individual results such as this would be more likely, at least for the first couple of hundred years, than any grand change in culture. The Industrial Revolution occurs three centuries (more or less) after the Renaissance.

3. The scientific principles of the modern world aren't those of a world of magic. Flight and Levitation spells, not to mention flying gargoyles, are proof that gravity is different. Easy access to other planes needs explaining. Fireballs and Lightning Bolts violate the conservation of energy, etc. The DM would have to either find some extended version of scientific principles, or insist that the players never know the principles.

4. How do the gods feel about it? Is it a threat to their dominance? Do some gods support science and some hate it?

5. My recommendation is to decide that relativity and nuclear forces simply don't exist. People think it would be easy to create an atomic explosion, but it took very modern industry to be able to do it.

6. The first culture to master the new tools of science for practical purposes is likely to feel superior to other cultures, and also likely to be stronger. Colonialization and domination are likely. But unlike the age of colonialization in our world, the non-scientific cultures would have wizards. This could lead to some very interesting wars.

But the crucial thing to realize is this: different cultures will receive the new learning at different times, in different ways, with different levels of acceptance, and with different degrees of success. There is no "one way" that this great cultural shift (or any other) would occur.

[ZeroGear]

Alright. First, I would like to apologize to you posters, especially Jay R and Salbaizer. I should not have called it "bashing", but I wanted to nip the derailing argument of "magic works this way" in the bud, because trying to explain 'how' magic works tends to complicate settings way more than needed. I am sorry I said I was disappointed in you, because your posts after mine are exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. For the sake of common ground, let us from now on assume non-magic physics will work the way it does in the regular world we all grew up in, save for some "special areas" that will be handled on a case-by-case basis in another thread.

Second. BWR, yes, I acknowledge that our world has more than one religion in it, and never disputed that fact. However, most individuals who ar mentioned in American and European stories from the 17-1900's tended to worship the same god under different names (God, Allah, Jehovah, etc...). Especially in American stories, most settlers were described as 'Good Christian Souls'.
I would like to step AWAY form this and look more towards what gods of different races would worship in a fantasy game, and I must say Salbazier and Jay R did a very good job with this in the last two posts.
Since this part of the topic will probably bring other issues if it were to spark an argument, I would think it wise to end it here and step away from religion with a sufficiently satisfactory answer.

Next, Jay R and Salbazier, keep the ideas as to what kind of various cultures could develop coming. Please, paint me as many different pictures as you can. Give me every feasible way that cultures could develop using the background of any fantasy race you can think of. How would an Elven city develop as opposed to a Dwarfen one? Would Gnomes be the first to create new weapons and gadgets? Would goblins try to form labor unions? What status would mages have in a city with gunpowder weapons? Would an army of spellcasters win against one armed with muskets or rifles? Which [fantasy] churches would be the most likely to start a crusade?
Your ideas are awesome thus far, I beg you, give me more!

[DisasterArea42]

I would like to step AWAY form this and look more towards what gods different races would worship in a fantasy game
I would imagine that you could just carry over the gods that are more race-specific, like Moradin for the dwarves, Garl Glittergold for gnomes, Corellon Larethian for elves and so on. Maybe have the nature-favoring gods fall out of favor as cities become more prevalent. If it has plants, animals, or nature in its domains/portfolio, it would slowly start dying out. Maybe have cities have one major god as a patron and acceptance of gods that don't outright oppose that god. Directly opposed gods would be worshiped in backrooms and cellars, far out of sight and in relative safety. Example: A city dedicated to Bahamut might have Tiamat worshipers, but they would be an underground sect and very discreet about their beliefs. Vecna operates as normal, because what worshiper of Vecna practices in the open?


How would an Elven city develop as opposed to a Dwarfen one? Would Gnomes be the first to create new weapons and gadgets? Would goblins try to form labor unions? What status would mages have in a city with gunpowder weapons? Would an army of spellcasters win against one armed with muskets or rifles? Which [fantasy] churches would be the most likely to start a crusade?
Your ideas are awesome thus far, I beg you, give me more!
I imagine that the PHB races would play out pretty much like this:

Humans: Receive changes well, accepting of new ideas and creations in general. I would have the humans be early adopters of new technology, magic driven and mundane alike.
Dwarves:Resistant to new ideas, although not hostile. Some would be early adopters of new tech and ideas, others would be stubbornly resistant to anything new. I would maybe have some of the early adopters convince the old-timers to use the new tech to wage huge Crusade-type wars against the standard villain mooks, the orcs, goblins, gnolls, kobolds, ect.
Elves:Strongly resistant to any kind of change. There might be early adopters in the elves, but they would be the exception to the rule. They might not be hostile to new ideas, but they certainly wouldn't lower themselves to use these crude weapons and tactics.
Gnomes:THE early adopters. Probably would have them helping make your early guns, since the PHB paints them as inventors and inquisitive. They would certainly help the dwarves on their holy wars against scumbag gnolls, giants, kobolds and what not, but they probably would start these wars.
Half-Elves: These guys would be parallels to the humans. They might be a bit more hesitant, but certainly not as opposed as the pretentious full-blooded elves.
Half-Orcs:Your poor whipping boys. These guys would get no love, just because of their brutish full-blooded brethren. They would probably be resistant to new ideas, but not opposed to them. They would make themselves as inconspicuous as possible in cities and favor the suburbs when possible.
Halflings: Think humans,gnomes, and half-elves. Gnomes would love having halfling friends, humans would tolerate, and half-elves would be okay with them, but probably react to extended halfling attention with a good deal of discomfort.
Various Races usually treated like cannon fodder:Your orcs and goblins and kobolds and the lot? The more intellegent would make themselves as scarce as possible and the entirety of them would probably be pushed further and further away from cities by war and discrimination.

[Kami2awa]

One setting to consider might be the Discworld.

Over the course of the 30+ books in the series, DW has gone from a pseudo-medieval setting that parodied popular fantasy of the time through a series of innovations that have altered in completely. They have either fully adopted or had to deal with magitek cameras (still and cinema), rock music (!), mechanical computers, public transport (driven by mysterious perpetual motion devices), Da Vinci-esque submarines, newspapers, printing, and the introduction of paper money and modern banking.

None of this has stopped wizards being wizards or warriors being warriors; it got integrated so the wizards now resemble Oxford dons and the barbarian warriors arrange highly choreographed bar brawls as a spectator sport.

One angle to take in the changing fantasy world might be to have the wizards take the role of the church; i.e. once-mysterious, powerful organisation sitting on a lot of secrets that is being sidelined by progress and new ways of thinking. Any PC wizard can simply be a rebel from this institution.

[Jay R]

The entire range of reaction to technology that humans have had on this earth is available to humans in the game. Not all human cultures are alike.

Gnomes would of course lead the way in engineering and manufacturing.

Tolkien elves would retreat further into the forests, or sail across the sea, to escape the world of men. A fascinating game of culture clash might be created when human technology creates ships that can sail better than elves can, and the elves learn that retreating to another continent doesn't get them away from the modern world.

Elfquest elves can fit into a technological world just fine, but they wouldn't be the drivers of it.

The goblin races would be shut out, at least at first, and treated as advanced explorers have always treated the low-tech tribes they met along the way, with mankind's complicated blend of charity, condescension, contempt, and exploitation. But once they got their own guns and cannons, they are just as powerful as anyone else, and some major wars would break out.

But fundamentally, I don't have many more ideas, because I wouldn't want to play in such a world.

I suspect that the real result of some sort of industrial revolution in a high medieval world with magic would be combining tech and magic to mass-produce magic items. Pretty soon there would be shops buying and selling the items, and rather than being rare, they would be normal commodities.

In short, it would turn the AD&D world of 1E and 2E into the world assumed by 3E and 4E, which I don't play.

[ZeroGear]

I suspect that the real result of some sort of industrial revolution in a high medieval world with magic would be combining tech and magic to mass-produce magic items. Pretty soon there would be shops buying and selling the items, and rather than being rare, they would be normal commodities.


I thought almost every town had a magic items shop. But, I get what you're saying, yet find it had to properly reduce the price of magic items without breaking game balance. Short of sidelining all the questions as to why farmers have low-magic items and just blaming it on inflation, I kinda think this is where technology fills the niche instead of magic.

Technology is (in my opinion) cheeper easier to come by than magic (since magic tends not to come in standardized parts), although magic takes less time to perform the same actions and is less likely to break down.

Is my assumption mistaken?

[Gildedragon]

It is: in any given plane.
Society in a D&D like world would be hard to evaluate. Not only are human societies already pretty random in how they respond to change and stimuli: throwing in groups with radically different takes on the world (LONG lifespans, ability to see in the dark, SLAs, shapeshifting, flight, stature) make it all but impossible to predict social change over time. In short: it goes however you want it to.
For an exercise of socio-economic change in a d&d world check out the tippyverse.

Possibly illusion or enchantment spells are seen as social evils, as alcohol or drugs. Gnomes are branded drug-peddlers and confined to ghettos or forced out of cities.
Elves, with their supremely long lifespans end up ossifying government.
Every police department has a clerico-necromantic division to "speak with dead"

[Jay R]

I thought almost every town had a magic items shop.

In 3E and 4E. This is a major point of difference separating them from the earlier versions, in which magic items are extremely rare.

That's why magic items feel more like technology in these later versions.


But, I get what you're saying, yet find it had to properly reduce the price of magic items without breaking game balance.

The lowering has already happened if there are prices at all, because in earlier versions, magic is irreplaceable and priceless.

[Rhynn]

In 3E and 4E. This is a major point of difference separating them from the earlier versions, in which magic items are extremely rare.

I'm not sure that's true, really... it may be something a lot of DMs imfer, but I'm not sure the PHB & DMG really say or imply it.


The lowering has already happened if there are prices at all, because in earlier versions, magic is irreplaceable and priceless.

Pretty much - although in AD&D 1E, magic items have a GP value they can be sold for (but not bought by PCs). Obviously, the DM might rule that some other adventurer happens to be trying to sell a specific item, but that's far from a shop.

[Endarire]

What the OP suggests is similar to my module, The Metaphysical Revolution (http://campbellgrege.com/work-listing/the-metaphysical-revolution-dd-3-5-module/). The setting includes the ramifications of industrialized magic.

And yes, it was inspired by Final Fantasy VI and the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007).

[Slide]

I'm not sure that's true, really... it may be something a lot of DMs imfer, but I'm not sure the PHB & DMG really say or imply it.

The PHB and DMG don't say it, but the Magic Item Compendium (Official WOTC publication, 3.5e) does.

[Rhynn]

The PHB and DMG don't say it, but the Magic Item Compendium (Official WOTC publication, 3.5e) does.

That's a bit late to have had any effect on how common it was even in early 3E play, though.

[Slide]

Technology is (in my opinion) cheeper easier to come by than magic (since magic tends not to come in standardized parts), although magic takes less time to perform the same actions and is less likely to break down.

Is my assumption mistaken?


It depends. You can have a Tippyverse setting, as set forth by the Emperor himself: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

You don't even need to get into high level hijinks to get Tippy. A magitechnic society is quite possible in an E6 setting, as Zonugal shows: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242955

Eberron itself is how WOTC explored the idea of moving the time setting up a ways. Cities have the Lightning Rail train network connecting them, elemental-powered Airships soar through the skies, and the Warforged race itself is built from the results of industrial war come to a magical society.

You can't build a spaceship in Greyhawk or Faerun or Golarion from technology, but you CAN build one from magic. It's going to be incredibly expensive and require a powerful spellcaster, but it's completely doable.

Technology's big strength is that once you've done it once, it becomes vastly easier to do it a thousand more times. Doing it that first time may be very, very hard, but the thousandth time is literally a press of a button. With magic, it's just as hard or easy every time.

As technology levels increase, some things are going to become easier and effective income levels will rise. You can do it via technology (weaving looms), magitech (a construct operating the loom and supervised/supplied by people), or magic (high level mages cast Fabricate or create resetting Fabricate traps). However it happens, it's going to create major changes that will completely change your society. *How* it's going to change it, and what method it will use, is up to you.

[ZeroGear]

You raise an excellent point about technology and magic Slide, and if you guys don't mind, I would like to hone in on this as a point of focus.

I have checked out the links you guys have posted about the Tippyverse, and I find it very well done I must admit, but it seems that there is a heavier focus there on magic than there is on technology.

For the sake of argument, let's assume (as the core rules don't really cover this) that magic and technology are mostly incomparable and are unable to mesh in the way that produces magitech in most settings. Thus, creations are either made either purely magical, purely technological, or technologically mundane with magical enchantments (as reflected by wands, muskets, and enchanted muskets respectively). Therefore, wile it is possible to create ships with enchanted sails and rudders, it is not possible to make wand-making factories that do not include magical assistants. In effect, the creator of magic items would still need Creation Feats in order to properly make said items while non-magical creations would be create via the Craft Skill. (And just for clarification purposes: regular golems are magical creations, clockwork golems are technological ones that are non-magical)

As such, what roles would/could technology and magic play in the development of a society that resembles the British Empire during the 1800's? What roles would these forces play in every day life?

[The Fury]

You raise an excellent point about technology and magic Slide, and if you guys don't mind, I would like to hone in on this as a point of focus.

I have checked out the links you guys have posted about the Tippyverse, and I find it very well done I must admit, but it seems that there is a heavier focus there on magic than there is on technology.

For the sake of argument, let's assume (as the core rules don't really cover this) that magic and technology are mostly incomparable and are unable to mesh in the way that produces magitech in most settings. Thus, creations are either made either purely magical, purely technological, or technologically mundane with magical enchantments (as reflected by wands, muskets, and enchanted muskets respectively). Therefore, wile it is possible to create ships with enchanted sails and rudders, it is not possible to make wand-making factories that do not include magical assistants. In effect, the creator of magic items would still need Creation Feats in order to properly make said items while non-magical creations would be create via the Craft Skill. (And just for clarification purposes: regular golems are magical creations, clockwork golems are technological ones that are non-magical)

As such, what roles would/could technology and magic play in the development of a society that resembles the British Empire during the 1800's? What roles would these forces play in every day life?

Just wondering, by "the British Empire in the 1800s" do you mean like 1801 or more like 1880? Because that would make quite a difference in the tech available.
Looking at it in broad terms though, oceanic travel would become much safer and more practical with better ship designs. Maybe your standard D&D era would have ships like caravels and this new advanced era has things like steam frigates. Maybe with factory production methods things like paper might become cheaper, which in turn makes printed media much more common.
I would imagine that tech might offer a cheaper solution to problems than magic would by virtue of not needing experienced spellcasters to build or maintain. Though perhaps some people might prefer magic over tech for a few practical reasons. For example an incandescent bulb and a continual flame lamp do practically the same thing-- the light bulb would probably be cheaper but the continual flame doesn't need to be hooked to a power source.
There's some tech that might work well with the aid of magic too, like maybe a steam engine could operate without a fuel source due to a magic-powered firebox.
All this is mostly off the top of my head I admit.

[DisasterArea42]

Just wondering, by "the British Empire in the 1800s" do you mean like 1801 or more like 1880? Because that would make quite a difference in the tech available.
Looking at it in broad terms though, oceanic travel would become much safer and more practical with better ship designs. Maybe your standard D&D era would have ships like caravels and this new advanced era has things like steam frigates. Maybe with factory production methods things like paper might become cheaper, which in turn makes printed media much more common.
I would imagine that tech might offer a cheaper solution to problems than magic would by virtue of not needing experienced spellcasters to build or maintain. Though perhaps some people might prefer magic over tech for a few practical reasons. For example an incandescent bulb and a continual flame lamp do practically the same thing-- the light bulb would probably be cheaper but the continual flame doesn't need to be hooked to a power source.
There's some tech that might work well with the aid of magic too, like maybe a steam engine could operate without a fuel source due to a magic-powered firebox.
All this is mostly off the top of my head I admit.

Technology would probably be a lot cheaper, but it would probably be a lot more civilian based. An Empire would want the additional versatility that magic provides, especially from actual casters instead of magic items.

Magic would also fill niches that just aren't fillable by mundane technology, such as the Teleportation Circles in the Tippyverse or the free labor of Unseen Servant. Unseen Servant would allow for military ships like the steam frigates in your example to operate with a much smaller crew with the Servants performing simple jobs within the range of the spell.

[Slide]

As such, what roles would/could technology and magic play in the development of a society that resembles the British Empire during the 1800's? What roles would these forces play in every day life?

What's easier to do with magic will be done with magic. What's easier to do with technology will be done via technology.

What really matters is how effective magic is allowed to be. In the magitechnic societies linked, magic is incredibly easy via traps. It's essentially moving magic from the artisan level (wizards) to the factory level (expensive auto-resetting traps).

Once that happens, magic is EASY. It's going to be easy the first time, it's going to be easy the millionth time. Create Food and Water? Magic. Healing? Screw doctors, we've got magic healing booths. Going from London to Paris? Step into a teleportation booth and you're there.

If you don't want that, how hard is magic to learn? If it's something that simply requires an Intelligence score above 10, then a good third of your society is going to be able to cast a first level spell. Any educated person will be able to use Prestidigitation or an Unseen Servant to make their life easier. Graduates from a good university will be able to Fly to work, and courts will employ people to cast Zone of Truth on trials.

If it's harder than that, how many eligible people will have the "spark" required to cast a spell? One in ten? In a hundred? In a thousand? I use spark with a purpose, because that idea (http://girlgeniusonline.com) has also been explored.

How common and effective do you want magic to be in your society?

[The Fury]

Technology would probably be a lot cheaper, but it would probably be a lot more civilian based. An Empire would want the additional versatility that magic provides, especially from actual casters instead of magic items.


I suppose that's true. Though one thing that occurred to me is the with the ability to mass-produce printed media it would be possible to produce quantities of standardized spell books which could enable an Empire to field larger quantities of wizards than ever before

[ZeroGear]

Admittedly, 100 years in more modern eras can be a very drastic time, so let's say a society that resembles the British Empire from around 1830-70.

Now, a target question: if magic that is not inherent (meaning that it is prepared rather than cast spontaneously) requires extensive education to learn, wouldn't that create a dividing line between those who can afford schooling and those who cannot?
Thus, would this mean spellcasters that do not have inborn magic would be from rich families and noble lines?

[Gnoman]

Not necessarily. In any such world, a wizard would be a major national asset, on the same scale as a battleship, aircraft carrier, or nuclear power plant (or, if it is easier to become a wizard, a fighter plane or oil well.) If there is an inborn talent needed, then the state (ANY state) will not allow even a single potential wizard to escape the training if they can help it (barring the refusal of the individual in more permissive or paranoid cultures), and will devote significant resources to ensuring that they CAN help it. If no special talent is needed, then there will still be extensive state-operated magic schools, simply because a "wizard gap" is an intolerable situation.

[Slide]

Will the wizards be an asset of the State, or will wizards be the State? If wizardry is low-level and difficult in general, keeping a few hundred level 1-3 spellcasters in check in an industrial nation wouldn't be overly hard.

If your experienced spellcasters can get up into the mid-teens or later, they might object to being treated as possessions of the government. When you can turn invisible, rain death and destruction on an entire city, then disappear to a hidden lair hundreds of miles away, even threats to your family and loved ones might not enough- or might just result in messily dead guards.

[The Fury]

With that being said I'd imagine arcane schooling might become publicly funded. The ends in mind being finding as many people smart enough to be wizards and make them wizards.
The idea is that maybe this Empire is wanting to be an arcane superpower so it would want as many wizards as possible. As for people from noble lines, I'd imagine that some form of magic training is expected in those families. Though I'd imagine they'd go to more prestigious, better quality schools or have private tutors.


Will the wizards be an asset of the State, or will wizards be the State? If wizardry is low-level and difficult in general, keeping a few hundred level 1-3 spellcasters in check in an industrial nation wouldn't be overly hard.

If your experienced spellcasters can get up into the mid-teens or later, they might object to being treated as possessions of the government. When you can turn invisible, rain death and destruction on an entire city, then disappear to a hidden lair hundreds of miles away, even threats to your family and loved ones might not enough- or might just result in messily dead guards.

That's a good point, an industrialized empire couldn't expect to keep a mid to high-level wizard a lowly sweatshop worker. Though such a wizard would probably not be best serving the empire in a position like that. Higher-level wizards would likely be better paid if they're not working for themselves.

[Slide]

Thinking out the "how hard is it?" thing a little more, the Tippyverse and similar settings assume that traps are available to reproduce magic. Magic *becomes* technology, and Emperor Tippy's setting is a logical conclusion.

We're going to have to eliminate that option. Everything magical must be done by hand. Also, since it's the only system I'm thoroughly familiar with, magic works via D&D 3.x/PF systems, whether Vancian wizard, spontaneous casting, Psionic Power Points, Spell Points or whatever.

There's a popular theory that 10,000 hours of diligent, deliberate practice, provided one has the aptitude for a task or field, is suffient to make you an expert on it. That's not 10,000 hours of noodling around, that's 10,000 hours of focused drills, exercises and brutal memorization. Interestingly enough, that's about how long a college student with a heavy credit load honors schedule and summer internships would spend on a technical bachelor's degree. Your average doctor probably spends 20,000 hours in training (or more- residency is *evil*), and people like neurosurgeons and plastic surgeons might spend 30,000 hours. A world-class neurosurgeon probably has over 40,000 hours of time invested.

We'll assume magic follows a similar pattern.

In a medieval society, learning magic is really hard when it requires a moderately capable wizard with a knack for teaching in your neighborhood, plus enough leisure time to master the skill. Nobody has thousands of hours to spare except the very fortunate, or the truly gifted who have 'the knack' and can pick it up with uncanny aptitude.

OPTION 1: Magic is learned, a high primary casting stat is the major requirement, and anyone with sufficient diligent study can pick it up. Let's examine the result of that:

Magic is EVERYWHERE. As it turns out, 'the knack' meant you were gifted, like some people have perfect pitch or others can win county fair strong man competitions while barely trying. With enough practice, anyone can build up their magical muscles and learn to cast a spell- and the key is 'with enough practice.' Not everyone has the discipline to do it, and mental agility still plays a significant factor. About a third of the population learns how to cast at least a single 0-level spell. Some only need a "Magic for Dummies" book and an hour a day for a month or two to get it down (we used to call them wizards), while others practice in their off time for a few years. Of that group, most learn two or three little spells. Uses include:

* Country doctors, nurses, emergency responders, some law enforcement and military medics learn Cure Minor Wounds. They can only cast it a handful of times per day, so they save it for their "Oh fewmits, he's gonna code!" cases. In the case of country doctors who see a handful of patients per day or personal physicians to the wealthy, Johnny's broken arm might be set, then healed with a touch.
* Medical personnel dealing with catastrophic injuries learn Preserve Organ, making limb reattachment and recovery from the most horrendous wounds possible if further treatment can be given.
* Craftsmen, tinkerers, engineers and mechanics learn Mending. It won't fix seriously broken machinery, but a stopped clock won't be wrong for long. Knowing how to fix the stuff in the first place lets them save their handful of uses per day for the really obstinate problems, where it turns out one little piece is broken/worn out/finicky.
* Well-trained soldiers and unusually dedicated anarchists, petty criminals and hitmen learn Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Electric Jolt or Launch Bolt
* Dedicated scholars pick up Amanuensis, making note-taking far simpler- but less rewarding.
* Mothers, nursemaids and nannies learn Lullabye. If one person in the neighborhood knows it, bedtime for toddlers and infants becomes sychronized, as visiting Lady Sandwoman (and tipping once a week) is a regular ritual. Neighbors of young families rejoice, as do shift workers and members of the military who need to fall asleep at random times.
* Security guards, bodyguards, elite strike teams and lovers learn Message to communicate privately and silently.
* Experienced sailors and anyone who travels beyond civilization learn Create Water, just in case
* Detect Poison is popular among the retainers and security teams of the wealthy, powerful and nobility.
* Everyone learns Mage Hand and Prestigiditation, because they're so darn useful.

Fully 10-15% of your population can cast first level spells. (INT/WIS/CHA of 11 or more, plus the will to actually knuckle down and study, practice and drill.)

* Scholar's Touch is REQUIRED for any serious schooling. (You can touch a book or scroll and absorb the knowledge contained within as if you had just read it. This is equivalent to a solid reading but not deep study.) Advanced prep schools teach it to children under 10, and anyone attending a university without it is clearly an idiot. Students are expected to read at least one 500-page book per day. Minimum. Prestigious universities might require 2-4 books per day. Textbooks are written to extensively discuss a handful of topics in detail, with multiple examples, and it is expected that a university library will stock at least 30 textbooks per course to be used in sequence. Excessive usage of this spell shatters the 10,000 hour rule for experienced spellcasters. A high-level mage has a few ranks of Knowledge(Every goddamn thing).
* One or two members of any well-trained, first-rate military squad can throw a Magic Missile, True Strike a sniper's bullet, Entropic Shield themselves in a battle, Burning Hands or Color Spray a melee fight, Entangle a whole enemy platoon, Endure Elements themselves through deadly conditions, or Obscuring Mist themselves to break contact. In elite units, everyone will do one or more of the above, as required.
* Cure Light Wounds is mandatory for any doctor of medicine, or experienced nurses and medics.
* High-end bodyguards can Sanctuary their clients.
* Diplomats and spies Comprehend Languages as a matter of course.
* Silent Image allows a professor to demonstrate anything, in detail. A good street performer also makes use of it, as do scam artists.
* Unseen servants make crime pay, and mundane tasks are accomplished in a fraction the time it would normally take. A single well-trained (and well paid) butler and lady replace half a dozen servants in wealthy households.


You have a magical society. Mechanical, devices such as power looms, refineries and jigs are still around, and the majority of people who lack the ability or drive to master magic can still operate them. But power sources might be a trapped Small fire elemental in the furnace box of a train, or a paired magically heated and cooled set of metal boxes hooked into a heat pump in the factory basement. Pollution is dramatically reduced. The wealthy heat, cool, and light their homes with magic, and it trickles down into the middle class.

Warfare is *terrifying*. Only a tiny fraction of 1% of your population can master 3rd level spells and higher, but industrial nations have a much greater population than medieval ones. Those with high magical potential are indoctrinated from early childhood with nationalist propaganda. Elite strike teams can hit all but the most heavily protected locations, and the steam-powered battleships beginning to spread over the oceans are protected as much by layer upon layer of defensive spells as steel. Two paradigms exist- low-level assets can only exist as long as they aren't detected. Camouflage is developed early, and to be seen is to court death. High-level assets such as commanders, vital strong points, ships and spellcasters themselves are ringed with magical defenses. Royal palaces are warded so heavily by paranoid court wizards that merely passing too close to the perimeter makes one's hair stand on end, but the example of Ivan the Terrible inspires them to continually strengthen the defenses. Nobody ever found all the pieces of the Tsar's body.

Ever since the Fireballing of Paris in 1792 by the massed wand-lines of Swiss Royal Guard mercenaries putting down the short-lived Bastille Revolt, a fragile agreement has left civilian population centers off-limits. Warfare is generally confined to proxy wars outside of Europe, much to the horror of the local population. While they've never been used rumors exist of cleverly constructed spells capable of vaporizing everything within an area hundreds of miles across. If such things do exist, presumably they are in the hands of nations vulnerabilty to a counter-strike. The idea of a renegade wizard of high power, even without such refined magic, gives magical strategists insomnia and ulcers. Detection spells continuously scan every mile of terrain just in case, but there is one location that is never checked- about 384,000 kilometers straight up. It would take an insanely powerful wizard to get there and survive, but foiling the detection scans of the Scotland Yard and Bureau de Magie on a long-term basis might be even more dangerous. Perhaps it's time to mount an expedition, just to be sure...

[Slide]

Option 1a:
Turns out that if you use genius-level wizards with magically enhanced intelligence to plan your strategies, engineer your defenses, and risk death in your service long enough, they start wondering why there's still some random, magically inept person with a crown bossing them around. These people are as smart as Newton and Gallileo combined, that propaganda you were feeding them wore off by the time they became a master mage. While the non-spellcasters never realized it, seeing through it was considered an intelligence check to become a master-grade mage.

In a single day, the mages of the Empire turned on their supposed masters, killing or teleporting them to an unknown location (Nobody's quite sure, and the end result was the same anyway), and seizing power for themselves. With that example before them, four other nation's spellcaster corps revolted within the week. In a fifth, the ruling family had some magical talent themselves and struck first with coordinated attacks using journeyman mages. That kicked off the Spellwar and over 99% of the citizens were either collateral damage or refugees within a month. The survivors tend to be dangerous, ruthless and magically gifted. On the plus side, the 'city buster' spells never materialized. On the downside, it turns out demons and devils are real, incredibly powerful and they get really grumpy when they're summoned from the Beyond with no way to get back. Keeping them in check is a frequent task for spellcasters in neighboring countries.

The wizards rule now. There have been a few revolts, which got one or two unprepared mages, but the response was brutal and effective. They generally leave local governments alone, except when a hazy, barely visible figure shows up to 'suggest' a certain course of action. These suggestions are taken slightly more seriously than the direct Word of God by most people. Nobody really knows what the wizards do the rest of the time. Twice in the last year, a remote mountain has vanished in fire and explosions, and weird, unnatural creatures were seen in the vicinity afterwards. Presumably it was the result of a wizard's battle, but whether it was individuals, faction infighting, or even an assault from another nation's spellcasters is unknown.


Option 1b:
London vanished last winter. So did Paris, later on that evening. Every other major city in Europe and Asia followed over the course of the next few days, with little apparent pattern. The Americas were spared, until suddenly after a fortnight they weren't. New York and Chicago were the first to go. Nobody's quite sure who started it, since the mushroom clouds that climbed to the edge of the atmosphere didn't come with flags attached. The survivors have assumptions of course, mostly along the lines of agent provocateurs or "Let's you and him fight" as the earthier put it.

It turns out that the rumors of magical city bombs were true all along, and finally, after decades of slowly increasing tension, someone was crazy enough to start using them. From the smoking, lava-filled craters strange crawling beasts of fire emerged, along with walking pillars of flame. The great mage colleges were all in the cities, and turned to ash alongside the millions of others who used to live there. All that was left was the 'hedgemage' centers that taught cantrips and precious little else.

It was enough, barely. Magic destroyed civilization, but the tiny shreds that remained saved it, albeit with horrific casualties among the survivors, mage and mundane alike as they retreated from the wild zones near the craterlands. The survivors salvaged anything of use they could find, and news of a Maxim with ammunition or untouched rifle stockpile sends (often doomed) expeditions back. Some say it was the odd 'radiation' of the city bombs that caused the weird and unnatural mutated animals that infest the wild zones. Rats the size of dogs, spiders the size of cows, and even flying horse-eagle hybrids have been seen.

Summer never came. The trees died, choked with ash from the falling smoke clouds. The shorelines were crowded with dead fish. Healers who could create food or magical, nutritious berries supported tiny groups of survivors. Magic is life now- either the harsh combat magic of the mages to protect the tribes, or the succor and food of the healers to sustain life among the hard-eyed, hollow-bellied survivors for another day. There is never quite enough of either, and death is common. Some point to the bodies of the dead and wonder if those who no longer feel pain or hunger or fatigue could possibly be magically reanimated to protect the living, and it is hard to argue against such ruthless practicality.

[ZeroGear]

Slide, while I appreciate the though you put into the last post, please stop being so depressingly morbid about this. Wizards ruling the world does not necessarily mean it's going to be hell for everyone else.

On a happier note: I took a look at two things that related to this subject, and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on them:
1) Looking at the gods of both D&D and Pathfinder, I find that while some of the nature and technology oriented gods may have their quarrels, not all the nature deities actually fully oppose technology. That got me thinking: would druids still be around in a more advanced era? And if so, would they have druid schools to train agents that would supervise land development the same way organizations like Green Peace do in our time?

2) A lot of you have have focused on the idea that mages would make up most of the armies in a latter era, though I find myself at odds with this. The reason is that if you compare a spellcaster to a warrior with a gun (assuming this is at least at "Guns are Commonplace" level) I find that while a mage CAN cause more short-term damage, he is like a candle that burns very brightly for a short time while a martial character will (to continue the metaphor) "burn dimmer for a lot longer". This becomes more apparent when a caster needs to sacrifice some combat spells for utility and buff spells. This boils down to the following question: how much of a balance would exist between casters and non-casters and how could this translate into social roles and/or social classes?

[Gnoman]

1) Looking at the gods of both D&D and Pathfinder, I find that while some of the nature and technology oriented gods may have their quarrels, not all the nature deities actually fully oppose technology. That got me thinking: would druids still be around in a more advanced era? And if so, would they have druid schools to train agents that would supervise land development the same way organizations like Green Peace do in our time?


Unlikely, I think. The essential nature of the druid isn't simply Nature, but wild Nature. In pretty much any nation that has become a Power, "wild" isn't likely to be very present, except possibly on the Frontier, or inhospitable regions without sufficient resources to draw settlers. Otherwise, the only areas where Nature would be found is in parks, preserves, and similar areas, all of which would have to be carefully tended. I can't see such areas giving rise to a druidic class. Likewise, Rangers would be much rarer, except for urban variants, while Barbarians would be extinct. However, the traditional forms of all three could easily be found in frontier areas, or in low-tech indigenous peoples of newly discovered lands.

[ZeroGear]

Unlikely, I think. The essential nature of the druid isn't simply Nature, but wild Nature. In pretty much any nation that has become a Power, "wild" isn't likely to be very present, except possibly on the Frontier, or inhospitable regions without sufficient resources to draw settlers. Otherwise, the only areas where Nature would be found is in parks, preserves, and similar areas, all of which would have to be carefully tended. I can't see such areas giving rise to a druidic class. Likewise, Rangers would be much rarer, except for urban variants, while Barbarians would be extinct. However, the traditional forms of all three could easily be found in frontier areas, or in low-tech indigenous peoples of newly discovered lands.

This can be a sticky point. I will agree that the most well known gods of nature are about the untamed wilds, but not all of them.
Just as nature can be the untamed wilds, it can also be other aspects, such as hunting and agriculture. It can also deal with healing done though herbal remedies, fertility and childbirth, amongst others.
I note this, because I do not want people to just lump everything into one category and shove it to the side (I only use generalizations so others may define smaller aspects of them, not because that's all I know).
Therefore, rangers do exist today, and not just the urban ones. Heck, if it al all counts, and this is just my opinion, so take it at face value, I would consider Steve Irwin (may he forever play in the great jungle in the sky) to be one of the best examples of a range. Heck, if he had magic, I would call him a druid.
Anyway, I digress, while I can see druids and being less mainstream, I find it hard to believe that they would completely disappear form bigger cities.
Feel free to agree or disagree with my view, I appreciate more feedback.

[DisasterArea42]

Regarding the "Wizards ruling the world" thing, while that might be how it would play out, I would think that if they did do that and suddenly some high leveled mages controlled different opposing nations there would be only a few city destroying spells used.

City Busters would be mostly abandoned much like nuclear weapons were abandoned by the Soviet Union and United States. Both groups knew the other side had a super-weapon and both knew that if they launched one, the world would turn to a hellish wasteland. The opposing mage cities would settle down and begin defensive posturing, knowing a full committed attack would end in disaster. There would be extreme paranoia, and the world would be in a state of Cold War. Instead of testing the super-weapons in a isolated deserts, one of the high leveled mages would simply create a new plane with Genesis for testing purposes. A campaign in a setting like this would either be a nuclear super-war for a bunch of epic-leveled characters or a low combat political espionage campaign.


As for druids and rangers, I imagine they would still be present. Druids would be high powered defenders of nature. As magic and technology spread, the forests would be endangered much like they are in reality by the expansion of cities and the clearcutting for lumber, and druids would be the most outspoken defenders of preservation of nature.
Rangers would be bounty hunters and trackers. Lots of favored enemy humanoid and a bit of refluffing and homebrewing so they can track stuff through urban environments.

[TuggyNE]

As for druids and rangers, I imagine they would still be present. Druids would be high powered defenders of nature. As magic and technology spread, the forests would be endangered much like they are in reality by the expansion of cities and the clearcutting for lumber, and druids would be the most outspoken defenders of preservation of nature.

I never have quite figured out how the "defenders of the forest" image came about, or rather how it got tagged to the name Druid. Cause after all, that's not what that word meant.

[DisasterArea42]

I never have quite figured out how the "defenders of the forest" image came about, or rather how it got tagged to the name Druid. Cause after all, that's not what that word meant.

In my example, it is mostly because society advancing into the countryside and technology overwhelming nature would push the classes that primarily worship nature gods into doing whatever they can to protect nature. Those people that chain themselves to bulldozers to keep construction crews from knocking down trees? Take away the chains and let them become a fireball-spewing grizzly bear and you have druids.

In general, people probably read that bit about how to become ex-druids where it says something about not revering nature properly and decide that means you must love nature all the time, hug all the trees, etc.

[ZeroGear]

I never have quite figured out how the "defenders of the forest" image came about, or rather how it got tagged to the name Druid. Cause after all, that's not what that word meant.

Mostly from the idea that they worshipped nature deities. While we know that originally druids were kind of like priests and wise-men for the celtic and Gallic religions, someone grabbed hold of the idea that since they worshipped nature, and forests are considered by many to be the representation of nature (eco systems and all that) that druids must somehow be defenders of the forests.
Personally, I only agree to half of that, because I tend to see them more as individuals who are caretakers of both flora and fauna in every environment, up to and including the parks and sewers of bigger cities.
To me, nature can come in many forms, but I understand that may not be the case for the rest of the posters.

[TuggyNE]

In my example, it is mostly because society advancing into the countryside and technology overwhelming nature would push the classes that primarily worship nature gods into doing whatever they can to protect nature. Those people that chain themselves to bulldozers to keep construction crews from knocking down trees? Take away the chains and let them become a fireball-spewing grizzly bear and you have druids.

Yeah, it's just that, well, I'm not sure there actually were (any significant number of) people like that before about two hundred years ago. :smalltongue:

[LordChaos13]

Because it wasnt a problem back then.
A logging company tore down 3 trees from that 5K+ forest last year? To use as firewood in the winter?
10x that fell over as part of the natural cycle of growth and regrowth.

[TuggyNE]

Because it wasnt a problem back then.
A logging company tore down 3 trees from that 5K+ forest last year? To use as firewood in the winter?
10x that fell over as part of the natural cycle of growth and regrowth.

Ehh, that isn't necessarily true. Much of Europe was deforested during the Middle Ages for various reasons, mostly warfare. England (and probably other countries) had to regulate how much was cut down to ensure they wouldn't run out of yew for bows, or pines for ship masts.

There's also cultural reasons; the Romantic movement was, I think, a large part of this.

[ZeroGear]

Alright, enough about the druids. Back to the main subject please.

[LordChaos13]

The thing with upping the era is we dont actually know what technology could bring.

I mean look at Wizards. Those are what happens to Scientists in D&D. Think about it, they have to be smart, they spend ages in higher learning, studying things no-one else does. They emulate the natural world artificially with preparation...
Int casting stat
Higher age needed and fluff of them being learned scholars
Magic isnt really studied by other classes. Sorcerors just get it, Clerics are handed it...
In a world where Gnomes get SLAs innately you know its a natural part of D&Dland. Wizards emulate that with arcane rituals

This is a world where Gravity and even the basic principles of Thrust and Air Resistance are altered. Surface area, weight, shape, density all mean nothing you fall at a flat rate for 6 seconds, then a faster flat rate until you hit something.

The only way to extrapolate into the future is to make Traps and Wands more common and homebrew a way of making mass-production not suck.
Maybe give the option to obviate the need for UMD checks on Wands for an added cost to represent it being for the non-wizards?
Other than that just make more powerful, lower spell level spells.
Greater Mage Armour becomes a lvl1 spell, Immunity to Fire a cantrip used when exploring volcanic regions for rare minerals to study by the scientific Wizards.

This is because Magic in D&D is represented (via Wizards) as scientific but personal.
While in RL scientific innovation became more standard for everyone, D&D spells are personal power with no real option to improve all of society. The exceptions are Wands (minus UMD checks) and Traps but are prohibitively expensive on the macro scale.

In summation: The advancing of eras will be led by Wizards. Their high INT making them equal to the scientists of the RL era and their strongest members our Newton and Einstein.
But the D&D world is NOT Real, it cannot be real with (Ex) dragon flight. It operates under very different laws and magic is a big part of them. So the march through the ages will, instead of becoming tech-y will become even more arcane.
Not magitech, Arcane Tech. Pure arcane used in place of RL sciences

EDIT: Also check out my sig for a game going from tribal nonmagical to, well wherever you want to go. A natural progression from nothing to everything
Currently recruiting so you can help shape its course