View Full Version : Oh my god! Did Belkar save Roy?!
Katrover_Swatroad
2013-05-18, 07:29 PM
Not from death, of course, but from damnation as an oathspirit after death.
In strip 881, Roy, disheartened by the loss of Durkon, considers pulling out and leaving the mission of saving the gates to more qualified heroes. In short, he is considering giving up on his oath to defeat Xykon. Like Eugene before him, Roy would have been barred from Celesta after death. How horrifying, to be denied entrance into Heaven after being let in the first time! :smalleek:
That is, were not for Belkar and his little "pep talk" ...
Bulldog Psion
2013-05-18, 07:32 PM
Not only that, but he'd be stuck on the cloud with dear old dad. :smalleek:
Math_Mage
2013-05-18, 07:38 PM
I don't know if it's really an "Oh my god!" thing, but Belkar did keep Roy from giving up. The implications depend on what you think Roy was giving up on. He was on the verge of giving up on the Gates, but that's not necessarily the same as giving up on defeating Xykon.
I doubt Roy was ever at all likely to simply wash his hands of Xykon like Eugene did.
He might have tried to go look for more powerful help, but I don't think him truly disengaging from the battle with Xykon was in the cards, as long as Xykon is among the undead.
King of Nowhere
2013-05-18, 07:49 PM
don't know about that. unless the oath requires you to be lawful stupid, roy's decision to retreat made a lot of tactical sense. He would have come back another day, possibly. Also, roy wasn't giving up on xykon, he was giving up on the gates. he'd havve probably still tried to take xykon eventually.
And last, even if roy had given up on the oath of vengeance on account of not being capable of carrying it, it may count for something in the afterlife. While eugene abandoned the oath because he lost interest, Roy abandoning it because he never became strong enough to pose a serious treath to xykon would be something entirely different. If the judging deva is reasonable enough to admit people who tried and failed, she may alsso be reasonable enough to recognize that engaging a foe that has around 8 levels and 4 tiers more than roy would have been suicide and serve no purpose. And if roy kept adventuring with the purpose of getting enough xp to challenge xykon, but never reached that level, he wopuld probably still be admitted in the afterlife.
Rakoa
2013-05-18, 07:50 PM
I would agree that Belkar's little pep talk catalyzed the process of getting Roy back on track, but by no means caused it. Roy was momentarily disoriented and distracted from his goal, nothing more. Belkar or not, Roy would have continued on. It was only a matter of time.
KillianHawkeye
2013-05-18, 07:51 PM
The implications depend on what you think Roy was giving up on. He was on the verge of giving up on the Gates, but that's not necessarily the same as giving up on defeating Xykon.
I dunno, I feel like Roy considers defeating Xykon and protecting the gates to be basically the same thing at this point, since doing one more or less involves doing the other.
I had not thought of why Eugene, likely with the resources to do it, wasn't raised before this. It wasn't because of this, either, i think. Well. Nice catch, by the way. I'd forgotten about it.
Bulldog Psion
2013-05-18, 07:54 PM
Well, it strikes me on further reflection that Belkar might have done them a bad turn by goading Roy into going on. This trap isn't exactly beneficial to them, after all.
KillianHawkeye
2013-05-18, 07:57 PM
I had not thought of why Eugene, likely with the resources to do it, wasn't raised before this. It wasn't because of this, either, i think. Well. Nice catch, by the way. I'd forgotten about it.
I believe Eugene actually died of natural causes. Either way, eventually even powerful adventurers stop being able to come back to life. Eugene probably died and was raised several times before finally dying for the last time.
thereaper
2013-05-18, 08:13 PM
Roy would have gotten about 5 miles away from the dungeon before changing his mind, and I think we all know it.
As for Eugene, it's implied he died of old age (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html).
KillianHawkeye
2013-05-18, 08:16 PM
As for Eugene, it's implied he died of old age (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html).
Implied in the sense that he explicitly says so in the strip you linked?
Mando Knight
2013-05-18, 08:55 PM
Eugene probably died and was raised several times before finally dying for the last time.
Given how his gravestone is marked in OtOoPCs, he died and was raised six times (though he was better at it than Leeron the Unlucky, who died four times at the age of 27...).
angry_bear
2013-05-18, 08:55 PM
I believe Eugene actually died of natural causes. Either way, eventually even powerful adventurers stop being able to come back to life. Eugene probably died and was raised several times before finally dying for the last time.
I doubt it. If he had multiple times, he probably would have known that he'd never enter Celesta without at least attempting to finish his oath.
I'm pretty sure that Roy wouldn't have abandoned the quest. It was a moment of self doubt, but he'd have more than likely snapped out of it sooner than later. Belkar just saved us several strips of seeing Roy doubt himself. :smallsmile:
thereaper
2013-05-18, 09:13 PM
Implied in the sense that he explicitly says so in the strip you linked?
Somehow I missed the one sentence in that strip that stated it explicitly, yes.
137beth
2013-05-18, 10:06 PM
I doubt it. If he had multiple times, he probably would have known that he'd never enter Celesta without at least attempting to finish his oath.
Yes, we know from OOotPCs that he died several times. We are certain of it. He eventually died of old age, as he told the deva. Whether you doubt it or not, we know it happened.
angry_bear
2013-05-18, 10:37 PM
Yes, we know from OOotPCs that he died several times. We are certain of it. He eventually died of old age, as he told the deva. Whether you doubt it or not, we know it happened.
Can you link a source?
Granted it could just be an oversight on Rich's part, but I'm just curious.
KillianHawkeye
2013-05-18, 10:45 PM
Yes, we know from OOotPCs that he died several times. We are certain of it. He eventually died of old age, as he told the deva. Whether you doubt it or not, we know it happened.
Can you link a source?
Granted it could just be an oversight on Rich's part, but I'm just curious.
On the Origin of PCs is a book and, by its very nature, unlinkable.
Anteros
2013-05-18, 11:03 PM
Can you link a source?
Granted it could just be an oversight on Rich's part, but I'm just curious.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html
"Just like your father, always dying and coming back when it's convenient for you."
He probably knew about the Blood Oath but just always figured he'd get around to it one day before he died.
Hajutze
2013-05-18, 11:47 PM
An idea - They resurrected him 6 times BEFORE he gave up on the vow.
Ashtagon
2013-05-19, 01:26 AM
I'm under the impression that Roy can't become an oathspirit like his father, because he never swore that oath. He can redeem his father if he succeeds, but he himself can't suffer from it.
Mike Havran
2013-05-19, 03:14 AM
I would agree that Belkar's little pep talk catalyzed the process of getting Roy back on track, but by no means caused it. Roy was momentarily disoriented and distracted from his goal, nothing more. Belkar or not, Roy would have continued on. It was only a matter of time.
This.
Roy was just wrecked with emotions in that strip, there's no way how he would leave the cause for good.
Amphiox
2013-05-19, 12:48 PM
I'm under the impression that Roy can't become an oathspirit like his father, because he never swore that oath. He can redeem his father if he succeeds, but he himself can't suffer from it.
Agree with this.
Roy never took the same kind of oath. He's explicitly (per the deva) not bound by those rules. While he did vow to take care of Xykon, it was not a blood oath, but just a personal vow. The same rules therefore do not apply.
He's explicitly (per the deva) not bound by those rules.
That is not even close to what the deva said.
Anteros
2013-05-19, 07:08 PM
He is bound by the rules. He's only allowed to ascend since he didn't give up on the oath. He is still bound by it though. It's pretty much stated explicitly in the comic.
Perhaps the times dear old dad died and were rezzed were all before he gave up on finding Xykon?
Dr.Epic
2013-05-20, 01:44 AM
I doubt Roy was ever at all likely to simply wash his hands of Xykon like Eugene did.
Why not? He was prepared to do the same with Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)
ROY! GREATEST LAWFUL GOOD FIGHTER EVER!!!! Always helps his friends and never thinks of quitting, especially when the fate of the world and all existence is on the line! Selfless and always thoughtful!!!:smallwink::smalltongue:
Cizak
2013-05-20, 03:10 AM
Why not? He was prepared to do the same with Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)
ROY! GREATEST LAWFUL GOOD FIGHTER EVER!!!! Always helps his friends and never thinks of quitting, especially when the fate of the world and all existence is on the line! Selfless and always thoughtful!!!:smallwink::smalltongue:
You really can't get over that, can you? Is that the fourth of fifth time you bring this up over the last few months? Roy learned his lesson. He regrets it. His character has developed. That was more than 700 strips ago. He wouldn't do it again today. The only reason he thought about quitting recently is because he's under a lot of stress and his best friend just died.
Nymrod
2013-05-20, 04:30 AM
It's also entirely possible that Eugene died as part of a COMPETENT adventuring party, so he was rez'd fast enough that he never had to go through the revolving door.
Twilight Jack
2013-05-20, 09:34 AM
It's also entirely possible that Eugene died as part of a COMPETENT adventuring party, so he was rez'd fast enough that he never had to go through the revolving door.
This. I was just scrolling to the end of the thread to reply with this very notion.
Jay R
2013-05-20, 10:00 AM
Roy would have gotten about 5 miles away from the dungeon before changing his mind, and I think we all know it.
Given that much time to think, yes, Roy would have turned back. But ...
... The Linear Guild are coming down the pyramid, Tarquin is at the top of the pyramid, and Xykon's group are approaching. We have no reason to assume that Roy would have ever gotten 5 miles away.
In any event, yes, Belkar helped keep Roy focused, and prevented Roy from turning away. He was getting Roy out of a mental situation that Roy brought upon himself. That's what loyal teammates do for each other, isn't it? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)
Niknokitueu
2013-05-20, 10:50 AM
My take on it is that yes, Belkar did save Roy.
Remember, Belkar, one way or another, is becoming good(er). Mainly, IMO, due to his relationship with his cat.
Prior to this Belkar was still his 'loveable' CE self, but pretending to be reformed in order to get along.
Since this, he has been slowly evolving as a person, and actually tried to motivate Roy for all the right reasons. When this failed, he let them think he was motivating thm for all the wrong reasons.
It is a part of the tragedy that is Belkar that Roy will allow him to die -permanently- despite him being firmly on the path to CG. And probably before he pays off all the really negative evilness. Which means he will be a good-motivated PC in the CE afterlife. Poor Belkar.
Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
quasit
2013-05-21, 04:04 PM
I support the idea of belkar saving Roy: if he turned back he'd have crossed ways with the LG and I'm not sure if M would be able to keep his promise, there's a chance that tarkin would go full "if you're not going to touch all the maze's traps ahead of me, you can suck on a power attack full round attack instead" on him (hilariously, with a whip) and also a devil and a yugoloth might join the fun. So while at first glance pushing onwards looked like a bad idea, belkar's words might have had avoided the whole order getting curbstomped.
(maybe the could sneak their way trought, but I do not count on it)
It's also entirely possible that Eugene died as part of a COMPETENT adventuring party, so he was rez'd fast enough that he never had to go through the revolving door.
Yep.
And it's probable that he didn't really give up on Xykon until he retired from adventuring. At which point, he stopped being part of said party, his expected deaths per year (EDY) dropped from something like 1 to something like (1/40), and the expected return on resurrection costs (ERRC) dropped from something huge (the party's future earnings) to, at best, cost (assuming you could persuade him to pay for his own resurrection out of his savings).
So all those earlier deaths would have happened before he gave up on Xykon, as well as not really giving him time to discuss the theological iimplications of his oath with the Deva.
Barsoom
2013-05-21, 06:07 PM
Not from death, of course, but from damnation as an oathspirit after death.
In strip 881, Roy, disheartened by the loss of Durkon, considers pulling out and leaving the mission of saving the gates to more qualified heroes. In short, he is considering giving up on his oath to defeat Xykon. Like Eugene before him, Roy would have been barred from Celesta after death. How horrifying, to be denied entrance into Heaven after being let in the first time! :smalleek:
That is, were not for Belkar and his little "pep talk" ...Since, in case of Roy giving up, there is a serious chance the Snarl would undo all creation, there would even be no Celestia for Roy to be barred from. There would also be no Roy's Archon, no Eugene, just nothing.
Living Oxymoron
2013-05-21, 10:10 PM
My opinion is that, more than saving Roy, Belkar is trying to save himself from the burden of living without honoring Durkon's death, who died to save all his friends from a more bitter fate. So when Belkar talks about himself being a "little bastard" that would "shrug off" that incident, he is actually talking about an older "him" that is no longer the reality.
brionl
2013-05-22, 03:19 PM
Why not? He was prepared to do the same with Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html)
ROY! GREATEST LAWFUL GOOD FIGHTER EVER!!!! Always helps his friends and never thinks of quitting, especially when the fate of the world and all existence is on the line! Selfless and always thoughtful!!!:smallwink::smalltongue:
Yeah, and Elan married the Sorceress, and Haley & Belkar & Vaarsuvius & Durkon all got killed by the bandits, all because Roy abandoned them. Then Xykon and Redcloak conquered Azure City and undid all of creation by messing with the gate. Roy didn't even get a chance to die old, bitter and alone.
Oh, wait. That didn't happen because Roy changed his mind and went back and rescued them.
scurv
2013-05-22, 04:46 PM
Implied in the sense that he explicitly says so in the strip you linked?
Well, Old-age may of simply been the straw that broke the camels back, It is entirely possible that he died in action due to his old age, And his father simply blames it on old age.
Well, Old-age may of simply been the straw that broke the camels back, It is entirely possible that he died in action due to his old age, And his father simply blames it on old age.
The only reason Eugene wasn't resurrected the last time was because, having died of old age, he couldn't.
Emanick
2013-05-22, 08:20 PM
Since, in case of Roy giving up, there is a serious chance the Snarl would undo all creation, there would even be no Celestia for Roy to be barred from. There would also be no Roy's Archon, no Eugene, just nothing.
The last time the Snarl undid all of Creation, it didn't affect the Outer Planes. So probably not.
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