[3.5] Paladin/Bard Concept and Advancement

[Zovc]

So, I have a character concept that is a Paladin who is dedicated to honorable, steadfast, and vigilant service to his lord. Nothing can distract him from his orders--except a damsel in distress.

As the paladin goes on quests and encounters maidens who totally need his help, he decides he should start acquiring more skills to serve his lord in court (totally not to impress ladies).

I'm envisioning a Paladin/Bard for this sort of character. However, I was wondering if there were any particularly cool synergies between the two classes whether flavorful or mechanical. Also interested in prestige class options (again, flavorful or mechanically powerdul). This concept isn't tied to a campaign or group, so the level of optimization and target levels aren't specified.

Obviously, I've got incentive to put points into Charisma because of Paladin and Bard class features. Are there any other ways to get more mileage out of a high Charisma score?

[Fates]

Hmm...

I'm a big fan of the Healing Hymn variant from Complete Champion (replaces fascinate). It may work well for a paladin, as it gives a bonus on the amount of damage you heal with healing spells (though some DMs might let you apply it to Lay on Hands as well) equal to your ranks in perform. This can be very useful with Cure Minor Wounds, as the spell actually becomes a viable source of healing between combat. It even applies to Lesser Restoration and other such spells, greatly increasing their effectiveness.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, there's obviously Devoted Performer, which allows Paladin/Bard multiclassing in the first place. If you ALSO happen to be in the Forgotten Realms, you can combine it with Initiate of Milil (from Champions of Valor). Both allow you to stack your Paladin and Bard levels for accessibility to bardic music and uses of bardic music per day, so if all your levels are based off Paladin OR Bard, you pretty much get all traits from Bard.

Based off the 'A-Game Paladin" build, there's From Smite to Song, which turns your smites into extra songs, using your paladin level as your effective bard level; since you'll also have Bard levels, it's reasonable to think that your Inspire Courage might also stack, so that's the third leg of the trifecta. You'll suffer a bit from the hit to caster levels, so you'll have to decide if you want more Bard levels or more Paladin levels.

On the side of Alternate Class Features, you can combine such traits. If you don't mind Inspire Competence, you can replace it for Hymn of Fortification, which grants an ally the Protection against Evil effect for as long as you sing. If you care about it, you can get the Harmonious Knight enhancement and replace Remove Disease (ugh!) for...Inspire Competence. So there's virtually NO excuse to replace Inspire Courage when you first get it. Healing Hymn is also a great replacement, since there's other ways to get Fascinate (though you'll miss on Suggestion). Since you'll probably have very few Paladin levels, the best thing is to nix Paladin spellcasting (your Bard levels will cover for your spellcasting), so you can get a free feat (Complete Champion).

Item-wise, you'll definitely want the Crystal Echoblade, which adds your bard level to your damage. Mix this with Divine Might, and you'll add your bard levels and your Charisma to damage. If you can get a Vest of Legends, you can improve your effective Bard levels by 5, which can have interesting effects with From Smite to Song, and which will boost your bard levels in general.

And, in general: Bard 14/Paladin 6 seems to be the way to go. That nets you BAB +16 (formidable for melee characters), 5th level spells (very decent, at least more than what the Paladin gets), and pretty much all abilities except Inspire Heroics (and with Initiate of Milil, you also get that as well).

[Zovc]

Thanks, both of you! I really like how flavorful the Healing Variant's use is, thanks for pointing me to it!

Cool, so there's more synergistic feats than just the one in complete adventurer. Where can I find From Smite to Song? Good suggestion on cutting Paladin casting--I might as well not incentiveise Wisdom, this character probably doesn't have the most exceptional base willpower.

So, there aren't any fancy pants prestige classes that can advance Paladins and Bards in a "Theurge" kind of way? :(

[Keld Denar]

One Pala-bard, coming up! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689/Weekly_Optimization_Showcase:_A-Game_Paladin)

[Zovc]

That's a Paladin 20 build!

[Waker]

I do rather like that paladin build. Seems like it would be quite funny to charge into battle and confuse everyone will your "non-paladin" approach to things.

[Socratov]

the only way that build could be mroe awesome is if the palladin would play in his lyre which is also an axe in the literal sense (not just figurative). that way you could really, really rock...

[Gwendol]

One Pala-bard, coming up! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689/Weekly_Optimization_Showcase:_A-Game_Paladin)

Very nice. And strangely enough also very paladin still. As was agreed in the "paladin tier thread" not long ago, while the optimization floor of the class is rather low the ceiling goes way up to tier three.

[T.G. Oskar]

the only way that build could be mroe awesome is if the palladin would play in his lyre which is also an axe in the literal sense (not just figurative). that way you could really, really rock...

An axe-lyre? How about a greataxe-guitar? Nothing says heroic like a massive axe hidden within a Magitek guitar, ready to unleash metal over the world!

...Coincidentally, I'm about to do that, except that not on D&D (d20 Modern, Urban Arcana/Shadow Chasers actually. Not exactly a Bard/Paladin, but a "Barbarian"/"Paladin" with ranks in Perform (really Tough/Thrasher/Street Warrior/Holy Knight with Celebrity occupation, which is pretty close).

Regarding A-Game Paladin: while I mentioned the build a bit, there's a few problems with establishing the full Paladin 20 build, namely the need for high Int and Wis. The high Int is to make the second half of the A-Game Paladin build work, which is the Sword of the Arcane Order feat; the Wis is to actually get spellcasting. The build does suggest going Illumian (for the Aeshkrau power sigil), so that at least takes care of Wisdom, but not of Intelligence, of which you need at least 14. So you need good Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and a decent amount of Intelligence for SotAO. Still a wee bit MAD; Serenity is more efficient IMO, at least in that regard, as it allows you to work with any race, though you'll have to consider the feat choices.

Pal 6/Bard 14 offers a whole lot extra options, even though armor will be limited (Battle Caster can take that to medium armor, and mithral full plate covers for the rest), and while you won't get the full extent of Wizard spells, you'll get 5th level Bard spells, which is a nice exchange.

[thethird]

Would a divine bard into prestige paladin work?

[Keld Denar]

Very nice. And strangely enough also very paladin still. As was agreed in the "paladin tier thread" not long ago, while the optimization floor of the class is rather low the ceiling goes way up to tier three.

I disagree. I think with this build, the optimization ceiling goes up to 11!


Regarding A-Game Paladin: while I mentioned the build a bit, there's a few problems with establishing the full Paladin 20 build, namely the need for high Int and Wis. The high Int is to make the second half of the A-Game Paladin build work, which is the Sword of the Arcane Order feat; the Wis is to actually get spellcasting. The build does suggest going Illumian (for the Aeshkrau power sigil), so that at least takes care of Wisdom, but not of Intelligence, of which you need at least 14. So you need good Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and a decent amount of Intelligence for SotAO. Still a wee bit MAD; Serenity is more efficient IMO, at least in that regard, as it allows you to work with any race, though you'll have to consider the feat choices.

Aesh-Krau Illumian changes bonus spells/day from Int/Wis respectively to just Str. You still (somewhat debatably) need a 14 Int and Wis to be able to cast the 4th level spells, but you can easily buy a 12 at PB and then get a +2/+4 item for each (or tack on +2 stats to existing items per the rules in the MIC) to have full access to your spells. Your save DCs will be trash, but you shouldn't be casting attack spells with saves ANYWAY, because that is not who you are. Buff yourself and use no-save attack spells like Whirling Blade if needed.

[Gwendol]

This is true: this build relies on IC and full BAB to lay down the smack, not save-or-whatever spells. Casting stat can be kept to a minimum. However, investigating the possibility of applying serenity to the build is worthwhile exploring.

Keld: Tier 11?

[hamishspence]

Might this Paladin's motto be "Be excellent to each other (party on, dudes)"? :smallamused:

Does seem like it would fit the theme.

[Keld Denar]

Keld: Tier 11?

It's 1 higher! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7rWiY5obI)

Also relevant

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/spinal_tap_amps.png


As far as Serenity, this build doesn't have a huge Cha focus. Your critical stat is Str. Just buy a 14 on PB, slap on a +6 Cloak (or the best you can buy at some point after buying a +Str and +Con) and call it a game. You aren't Smiting (Smite to Song), and you really aren't Turning much (or at all with the Mystic Fire Knight sub), so the only thing you have that runs on Cha is Divine Grace. You'd be spending a feat to switch importance on Cha to Wis and all that would net you is about 2-3 points of Will save. Iron Will gives +2 Will save and is generally seen as a throw-away feat. No, leave Wisdom at 10-12 (with a +2-4 item) to get to 14 (all you need), and put the rest in Str, Con, and Cha.

Plus, Serenity would make you want to dump Cha, and what rockstar Paladin is gonna have a low Cha?

[Gwendol]

Yeah, you don't want to dump CHA. I've been wanting to make a smite to song paladin, and even more now.

I'm a little sceptical to how WoC is applied though. The way I've read the feat it doubles the IC you would "normally" have. Not necessarily doubling whatever bonuses you end up having after spells, items, etc.

[Socratov]

Yeah, you don't want to dump CHA. I've been wanting to make a smite to song paladin, and even more now.

I'm a little sceptical to how WoC is applied though. The way I've read the feat it doubles the IC you would "normally" have. Not necessarily doubling whatever bonuses you end up having after spells, items, etc.

well, it depends on when you activate the feat. If you activate it before adding the additive bonuses, it only doles tge original bonus... If you activate it after the additive bonuses it doubles them as well... (At least that is the ruling I have used and have seen used before)

[Shaynythyryas]

well, it depends on when you activate the feat. If you activate it before adding the additive bonuses, it only doles tge original bonus... If you activate it after the additive bonuses it doubles them as well... (At least that is the ruling I have used and have seen used before)

WoC are applied when you start to sing. So basically any enhancing you already have may reasonnably be considered as doubled. But the badge of valor, which apply AFTER you've started singing, shouldn't be doubled.

Regarding WoC, every DM has his own interpretation : it's better to just stick with whatever he decides than to spend hours debating RAW/RAI.

[Gwendol]

That makes a lot of sense. And yes, ultimately it is the DM ruling that's going to count.

[Talya]

Would a divine bard into prestige paladin work?

Not really. PrC Paladin requires turn undead already. It's obviously intended for cleric, although you can use other classes that grant turn undead to qualify.