Pyromancy

[Cranthis]

Hello once again Playground, sorry if you've missed me.

Anyways, I intend to make a fire based sorcerer.
Things to clarify:
We are starting at level 5.
It will be 32 point buy (I haven't assigned them yet.)
Yes I know all the drawbacks to fire based things.
No, I will not be using Psionics.
Yes, I am going to do this.

Mostly, I'm looking for things to make my fire spells all around awesome.
Energy Substitution: Fire, and Searing Spell are a given.

What else does the Playground recommend for pyromancy?

[Spuddles]

Ring of Mystic fire from the magic item compendium. Produce Flame on your spell list, if you can swing it. Superior blasting efficiency with that spell, mixes nicely with metamagic.

Call Lightning, ring of mystic fire & ring of mystic lightning, sculpt spell and energy admixture gets you 18d6 blasts in a variety of shapes CL times per casting. Combine with metamagic reducers, of course.

[thethird]

My personal take on pyromancy has silver pyromancer on it (from five nations) which is pretty good, and among other things gives you paladin spellcasting. Also bloodline of fire, from player's guide to faerun is nice.

[ArcturusV]

Forward, Down, Down-Forward, Fierce Punch. :smallbiggrin:

I'd suggest getting a template, hopefully lower LA than say, Demonblooded (LA 2, 3 if you get the natural flight in). Among other neat things? Complete immunity to Fire. And heck, dropping Fireballs as Melee is always nice and fun. Save your metamagic shenanigans for more high impact uses than just making sure you don't AoE yourself out of life.

Since you're probably going to be counting on a lot of Metamagic, gotta suggest the Metaphysical Spellshaper PrC for it. Bonuses:

You can spontaneously metamagic up your Prepared spells as you cast them. You take Ability damage to any ability of your choice equal to the level difference. You do not have to be able to cast a spell of the effective metamagiced level. So if you can only cast 3rd level spells max, you could effectively metamagic up a 3rd level spell to a 7th, and just take 4 damage to say, Strength. Bonus metamagic feat at 2nd level. Third level gives you a -1 spell level total to Metamagiced spells. Doesn't stack PER metamagic applied. Just one flat. So you can't stack three 1 level metamagics for a net zero. But hey? Free level is free level.

3 level PrC, full casting. Easy entry requirements (3 ranks in Craft Weaving or Sculpting, 5 Know: Arcana, can cast 3rd level spells). No reason not to take it for your Pyromancer unless you got much, much better stuff to do for 3 levels. But being focused on fire chucking that's probably going to be one of the better PrCs for it.

[JellyPooga]

If you're looking at AoE spells in any great number, the Sculpt Spell metamagic Feat is fairly amusing. A Sculpted Burning Hands, for example, is a fairly viable alternative to Flaming Sphere for a Lvl.2 spell slot (just watch out for that Range limitation).

If you can swing for extra feats, the Sudden Metamagic feats are remarkably good in lower level games (heck, they're pretty solid in higher level games, too). Sure, they're only 1/day, but you can apply them to your highest level spells. Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximise and Sudden Widen are all solid choices (Sudden Quicken would be awesome if it didn't have such harsh prerequisites). A Sudden Maximised Flaming Sphere for 12 points of damage per turn, at the level you're playing at, is nothing to be sniffed at

[KillianHawkeye]

The Fire Bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine Compendium will get you extra spells known in some nice places, although they sadly aren't ALL about burning things. Mostly useful if you expect to be getting at least to the teens level-wise.

The Fiery Burst reserve feat from Complete Mage will ensure that you never EVER run out of burnination, and gives you a small boost to your caster level with fire spells.

[iDesu]

If you're looking for a prestige class then the Warmage (of Krynn) is nice for a sorcerer. You'll get CHA to ac for 3 allies, two metamagic feats and 3 additional damage per dice. It's in the dragon lance book age of mortals, which I believe is third party.

[JellyPooga]

Ooo, thinking of Prestige Classes...you should totally take a level of Wild Mage at level 6. Nothing says half-crazed (fully crazed?) pyro sorcerer guy like spells that wildly fluctuate from being slightly weedy to AWESOMELY POWERFUL.

Well, maybe not that extreme, but a 1 level dip of Wild Mage (even though you have to pay a Feat-tax to get in) can really add to lower-level builds that rely on Caster Level for spells like Fireball and Fire-subbed Lightning Bolts...

[Khedrac]

When I played a pyromanic wizard (she was more than a little insane) I found Parboil from Sandstorm a great little 4th-level spell.
Yes the base damage is poor, but think of it as a Fortitude Save or take 2d4 Int damage AoE.

At higher levels Radiant Assault may not be a fire spell, but it looks like one (7th, Spell Compendium) and just how many AoE spells with a Will save are there? It's a great spell for mowing down the army of mooks between you and the boss.

Enjoy this one - such characters can be great fun, and it is so much more stylish to hit a fire immune creature with a fire spell for half damage than a sonic spell for full - it's the damaging equivalent of a rude gesture.

[KillianHawkeye]

When I played a pyromanic wizard (she was more than a little insane) I found Parboil from Sandstorm a great little 4th-level spell.
Yes the base damage is poor, but think of it as a Fortitude Save or take 2d4 Int damage AoE.

I'll second that just on the basis of it targeting Fort instead of Reflex. You'll need at least that much variety in your spell selection.

[Grayson01]

Explosive spell and Energy Gestalt are good ones. And for some reason I remember blistering spell

[Komatik]

Forward, Down, Down-Forward, Fierce Punch. :smallbiggrin:

You forgot jab, jab at the beginning. Need to hitconfirm that stuff, it's not cool to sail helplessly skyward and be murdered for it, would much rather light opponent on fire instead.

[gr8artist]

Have you looked at the pyromancer handbook? It's hard to find, but it's a 3.5 book with stats on the pyromancer class.
Highlights: Spontaneous casting from limited list, but gets a flame version of magic missile. Elemental familiar. Natural energy resistance bypass. SLA's everywhere, for a variety of burning. Light armor, no spell failure. Proficient with 1 martial weapon. Charisma based everything. Add charisma to fire damage. Fun times to be had.

EDIT: I don't think the book is legit WotC. This makes me sad. I have the PDF, though, so it's a least a decent third party thing.

[Soranar]

If you don't want to waste a feat getting searing spell (which isn't that good honestly)

you could dip into Sanctified one of Kord (found in complete champion)

you lose a caster level but all your fire damage from spells is converted into holy damage and it doesn't affect your casting time since it's not a metamagic effect

as for fire based spells scorching ray tends to be incredibly cost effective damage wise (11d6 damage with a level 2 spell is just golden) and it stacks very well with fiery spell and arcane thesis if you intend to go the metamagic route

otherwise you can look up the mailman build and replace orbs of force with orbs of fire (there's also a lesser version of the orb of fire that's a level 1 spell)

[pyromanser244]

If you don't want to waste a feat getting searing spell (which isn't that good honestly)

you could dip into Sanctified one of Kord (found in complete champion)

you lose a caster level but all your fire damage from spells is converted into holy damage and it doesn't affect your casting time since it's not a metamagic effect


wait what? in what way is searing spell not good?

[Soranar]

ok, I guess I need to explain the searing spell thing

first comparison

searing spell (option A) vs sanctified one (option B)

option A costs a feat
option B costs a caster level

option A deals 50% damage vs anything, +100% vs a handful of creatures
option B deals 100% damage vs anything (unless you fight epic CR creatures)

option A extends your casting time
option B doesn't

option A makes your spell 1 level higher
option B doesn't affect your spell's slot level

second comparison

searing spell vs different spell (I know this is a themed build but the point is to show why searing spell isn't that great from an optimizer's point of view)

searing orb of fire vs orb of force

the first deals 15d6 /2 (26 on average) vs a fire immune creature and is a level 5 spell
the second deals 10d6 damage (35 on average) and is a level 4 spell

the first cost you a feat, the second cost you a spell known , problem is that orb of force is a very good spell to know so you're not losing much

[pyromanser244]

a few points.

searing spell doesn't reduce the spell's damage unless the target was immune to fire. everything else takes full damage. if your DM is throwing mostly fire immune creatures at a dedicated pyromancer(at early levels), then either the caster is dealing enough damage to not care or you've got a problem with the DM.

option B has a prerequisite of +5 BAB. most of the best blast spells that can deal fire damage are arcane. so most likely option B doesn't exist until level 11+. option A, on the other hand, is a feat with no prerequisites at all and thus can be taken at first level.

option B costs an entire spell level. caster level checks, level dependent variables, and spells per day are also sacrificed for the extra guarantee.


I can see were you're coming from but I'd argue that from early to mid levels searing spell is the better option. from there it will depend on the character build as to whether the caster cares about the difference.

[Divayth Fyr]

option B costs a caster level
Which means you'll get new spell levels even later than normal (and a sorcerer already has this delayed when compared to a wizard).


option A deals 50% damage vs anything, +100% vs a handful of creatures
option B deals 100% damage vs anything (unless you fight epic CR creatures)
No, option A deals 100% of damage againtst most of things, 50% vs a handful (fire immunes) and 200% againts a different handful (cold subtype)


the first deals 15d6 (52 on average) vs a fire immune creature and is a level 5 spell
the second deals 10d6 damage (35 on average) and is a level 4 spell
Fix'd that for you.

[Soranar]

Alright people, here's a simple thought exercise

pick up your monster manuals and look up every monster that has resistance to fire

now add all the stuff that has immunity to fire

now add all the spells/special abilities and magic items that grant resistance and immunity to fire

If your DM is forced to customize his campaign so you stay relevant, you have a problem. For the same reason the enchantment school is subpar (because so many things are immune to enchantments) fire is a really weak element.

And if your character has a reputation for using fire damage spells, it's a given that even low intelligence characters that will oppose him will do so with some form of defense against fire

Now compare all of those things to force damage

There is 1 creature immune to force damage, if your DM makes it part of the campaign you can become suspicious
There are no magic item that give resistance to force damage
There is all of 1 spell, that is setting specific, that gives immunity to force damage

so yes, searing spell is seriously underpowered

[Divayth Fyr]

(...)

so yes, searing spell is seriously underpowered
Congratulations - you have proven fire damage is underpowered. Not that searing spell is.

Also, what spells have the fire subtype (do spells even have subtypes? descriptors, yes, but subtypes?)? Sanctified one specifically calls for such a thing, so does it even work on anything (by RAW of course)?

[pyromanser244]

that works for NORMAL fire damage. for a caster with searing spell, fire resistance doesn't even exist. fire immunity can only slow you down. and nothing makes you irrelevant. you can have this and force damage, no penalty.

a DM should always build his encounters with the party in mind. and he should be fair. if the players don't know their enemies ahead of time there should be an even chance the villains don't know to be immune to fire. if it's a recurring villain then the player knows the other guy has immunity to fire and can use other things.

but this is arguing in theoretical circles. fact is searing spell brings fire damage up into force's range of optimization. they aren't equal but given where fire started out it's a good investment for anyone who wants to actually use fire.

[Vizzerdrix]

For stats, pump Int and Cha. Make sure you take the metamagic variant (the reason you'll want a high Int). Fell Drain might be useful as well. It'll help with fire immune targets.

[Fable Wright]

Ooo, thinking of Prestige Classes...you should totally take a level of Wild Mage at level 6. Nothing says half-crazed (fully crazed?) pyro sorcerer guy like spells that wildly fluctuate from being slightly weedy to AWESOMELY POWERFUL.

Well, maybe not that extreme, but a 1 level dip of Wild Mage (even though you have to pay a Feat-tax to get in) can really add to lower-level builds that rely on Caster Level for spells like Fireball and Fire-subbed Lightning Bolts...
If you're doing Wild Mage, don't forget to add Practiced Spellcaster. Go from slightly above average firepower to way, way, way above average. :smallamused:

Casting 10d6 damage fireballs half the time you cast the spell is nothing to scoff at at level 6, even if it did cost you two feats to pull off.

[Cranthis]

Great advice from everyone, except maybe Soranar. You seem to be missing the point. While everything you said is right, its just abit off target.

I do not believe I'm going to go with Wildmage, as hilariously awesome as it looks. So far, I've ended up with the Mailman, but with some changes to fire themed things.


For stats, pump Int and Cha. Make sure you take the metamagic variant (the reason you'll want a high Int). Fell Drain might be useful as well. It'll help with fire immune targets.

Excellent advice, although I had already done that.

[ahenobarbi]

There is also Consecrate Spell from Book of Exalted Deeds. It transforms half damage to non-elemental. So damage-wise weaker for fire-resistant foes than Searing Spel but it adds [good] descriptor (so you can for example apply Spell Focus( Good) to them and get +2 DC)(and I think it stacks with regular Spell Focus).

[Randomguy]

The Fiery Burst reserve feat will give +1 to Cl for Fire spells and will let you blast mini fireballs at will.

Try and get a few non-blasting but still fire spells as spells known, for example Wall of Smoke and Pyrotechnics.

[ArcturusV]

And of course some of it is a stretch but still can fit theme if you play it right. For example, playing a "Fire" mage, I actually used a lot of Illusion spells to tie into the light and visibility aspect of Fires, some divinations as burning is a typical part of some soothsaying traditions, etc. I ended up with a "Fire" mage (And he claimed to be one IC and no one disagreed) who never actually cast things like Fireball or Meteor Swarm.

[pyromanser244]

something you might want to try is fiery spell from sandstorm. not a lot of damage on its own but paired with energy admixture and twin spell on something with a lot of potential dice it adds a considerable amount to the total.

[tyckspoon]

you lose a caster level but all your fire damage from spells is converted into holy damage and it doesn't affect your casting time since it's not a metamagic effect


The main problem with this approach is that once you convert all the Fire damage, you no longer have a [Fire] spell. And there's a lot of resources that key on that descriptor to help make a fire-based caster particularly potent. It's not as important at high levels, since you're doing "enough" damage either way and you probably already hit the dice caps on your spells.. but at the low and mid levels, those extra 3-4 caster levels and extra damage benefits for using fire spells really help out.

[Spuddles]

The main problem with this approach is that once you convert all the Fire damage, you no longer have a [Fire] spell. And there's a lot of resources that key on that descriptor to help make a fire-based caster particularly potent. It's not as important at high levels, since you're doing "enough" damage either way and you probably already hit the dice caps on your spells.. but at the low and mid levels, those extra 3-4 caster levels and extra damage benefits for using fire spells really help out.

Just apply the stuff that need [Fire] first?

[Ravens_cry]

Mix in a little divination magic as well, please.

[Xervous]

If going metaphysical spellshaper, take the Bind Vestige feat for Naberius. Suddenly you can spam +1 metamagic adjusts effortlessly, +3 adjusts can also be spammed if you manage the ability damage allocation.

[almightycoma]

since I haven't seen it mentioned yet take thematic spell [adjective][color]fire.

Now all of your spells look like fire and you look super awsome.:smallcool:

[Cranthis]

Mix in a little divination magic as well, please.
The only divination I need is detect magic.

since I haven't seen it mentioned yet take thematic spell [adjective][color]fire.

Now all of your spells look like fire and you look super awsome.:smallcool:

If only. But that would be wasting a precious feat.

[pyromanser244]

yaknow there should probably be a handbook on this.

[Spuddles]

If going metaphysical spellshaper, take the Bind Vestige feat for Naberius. Suddenly you can spam +1 metamagic adjusts effortlessly, +3 adjusts can also be spammed if you manage the ability damage allocation.

Unfortunately binding naberius like that doesn't work that way.