[3.5] Which class should I pick for that party?

[Xothguk]

Hello everyone. I've been following Giant in the Playground Forums for a very long time, but just registered today. Because I am struggled about a situation and need advice as a D&D newbie.

Our party includes:

Chaos Gnome - Bard
Dwarf - Ranger
Lesser Aasimar - Fighter (Paladin changed his class)

As we can see,it is not possible to follow the core tank/arcanist/mystic/sneak route because of the choices. Considering those members, which class should I pick for a better synergy as the 4th member?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I decided on playing a cleric. Thread is now about that cleric's build :)
And we are playing at Faerun.

[JellyPooga]

Well apart from the Paladin, you've got the potential to do a bit of a stealth-party there. If you can convince the Paladin to not wear full-plate and give a thought to not being an idiot, then I say go for a Scout or Rogue and approach your challenges from the sensible perspective of "watch, wait and strike at the opportune moment" instead of "RAAARGH! Door Smash! Ignore puny arrows! MuderDeathSlay!"

[Xothguk]

I was thinking to play a rogue but couldn't decide because I am asking to myself that:

1- Are we gonna be a really squishy party with that comp?
2- Are we gonna need high level arcane spells in the future?

And what do you think about a Spellthief? Will it fit in? Another sneak with some spell casting.

[JellyPooga]

It depends on how long you think the game will go on, really.

Sure, a "true" arcanist is very handy at higher levels, but up until about 7th level, they don't really outshine any other class that dramatically.

If you think you need a bit of extra arcane, then yeah, a Spellthief might do it, but I've never been all that enamoured with the class myself.

Between a Ranger/Rogue/Paladin/Bard party could actually be remarkably effective. You've got the Paladin there as your front-line, the Rogue to provide melee support with Sneak Attacks and the Ranger to provide long-ranged firepower. The Bard, meanwhile, provides everyone a boost and can be the party healer in a pinch. I like it.

[Xothguk]

Your last pharagraph is inspirational. I should consider a melee support to Paladin as Rogue or something else (may be a Cleric). Thanks for help.

[angry_bear]

I'd say a Druid. The group is already a bit eclectic and an extremely diverse class like that can fill any role absent in a given situation.

A rogue could be fun as well though, and you don't run the risk of stealing the spotlight from the other players in their roles. What level are you starting at?

[Metahuman1]

Hmmmm,

If you don't mind sub systems, Try the Binder form Tome of Magic.

Otherwise, I'd say a cleric, a druid, or a wizard focusing on Buff/Debuff magics would be good, or maybe a fighter focusing on tripping. (Deals less damage, but it inhibits enemy mobility and action economy and makes it easier for the Paladin to kick butt. Ranger and Bard too if they like Melee weapons. If they like Archery though, maybe use one of the earlier suggestions. )

[Xothguk]

What level are you starting at?

We are starting at level 2 :) And our ranger will focus on archery instead of TWF, but dunno about our bard, because he hasn't decided yet, but he will be a buffer type I guess.

I will decide between a rogue and a cleric. My ability scores are 10,10,12,13,13,16. By picking Lesser Aasimar i guess i can be a decent cleric with +2 wis and cha bonuses.
Ah, and our DM wants me to play human or something looks like human, because he thinks that we will be like a circus squad if I choose another small sized creature :)

[RogueDM]

Upon reading the OP I was thinking Cleric, but after reading some of the other suggestions Druid does sound like a clever choice as well. Most of the party is already "cross-over" classes allowing you all to fill in for one another in a pinch, and the Druid would continue that trend. Besides it gives you access to some healing spells (in addition to any your Bard may take) and at higher levels things like Call Lightning (mix with Cloudburst ftw). But also gives you the option of Shapeshifting into something powerful to aid the Paladin/tank or something small and quiet to do recon and bypass obstacles.

The Rogue approach is also valid, and which is the better option really depends on the characters (RP-wise) and their players. If they all agree to being a covert party, rock on. If they want to kick down doors and hack-and-slash their way through problems... hide behind your animal companion.

Edit: If it's between Rogue and Cleric... I dunno. Cleric would allow your Bard to focus on doing whatever it is that Bards do and allow your Paladin to operate at full steam. Rogue would definitely be a blast in a high stealth party, but if you get caught with your pants down you'll be hard pressed relying on the Bard for healing and magic support. I begrudgingly vote Cleric.

[MukkTB]

The party consists of a tier 3, tier 4, and a tier 5, so far.Obviously its not time for a DMM Persist beatstick cleric.

My suggestion is to do one of two things: A buff oriented caster (Tier 1 or 2) that will manage encounters and help the other guys shine.

A tier 3 or 4 adventurer of a play style you enjoy.

I don't know your preferences. If the only criteria is to supplement the party as well as you can, then go with the first option. A Wizard with some battlefield control and buffs on the party like haste would be highly appreciated. People like getting buffed. A Cleric gets fine buffs and can fix people afterwards. Its not so much the healing a Cleric has that makes it a good bandaid class, so much as the ability to cure poison, cast restoration, ect.

[Amphetryon]

Hello everyone. I've been following Giant in the Playground Forums for a very long time, but just registered today. Because I am struggled about a situation and need advice as a D&D newbie.

Our party includes:

Chaos Gnome - Bard
Dwarf - Ranger
Lesser Aasimar - Paladin

As we can see,it is not possible to follow the core tank/arcanist/mystic/sneak route because of the choices. Considering those members, which class should I pick for a better synergy as the 4th member?

Thanks in advance.

Bard: Skill-based CHA-caster, Arcanist and Face. T3, generally.

Ranger: Skill-based combatant, either TWF or Archery. Secondary healer, divine caster, and skill-monkey. T4, generally.

Paladin: Melee combatant, Face and Healer. Secondary divine caster. T5, generally.

The party could use someone with some stealth skills, and some additional arcane magic (but would probably be overshadowed by a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Archivist). Beguiler and Spellthief are both appropriate choices here to fulfill roles not well-represented within the party. This assumes that none of the listed Characters are using ACFs that alter their presumed roles significantly, such as a Trapfinder Ranger.

[Xothguk]

Thanks for the alternative ideas. Our paladin changed his class to a fighter for more freedom (allignment and rolepaly wise), so I guess picking a cleric for me is nearly a must right now. Right?

[Amphetryon]

Thanks for the alternative ideas. Our paladin changed his class to a fighter for more freedom (allignment and rolepaly wise), so I guess picking a cleric for me is nearly a must right now. Right?

Cleric may be a bit strong by comparison to the rest of the party, unless you plan to just play as a support Character. Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, or Favored Soul (all in Complete Divine) might be closer fits to your group's apparent power level. Alternately, there's a Healer class in the Miniatures Handbook that's basically What It Says On The Tin.

[Xothguk]

I am not experienced about clerics, so I was checking some builds that includes Persist Spell+DMM with plannig+ another domain. (We are not using the gods that exist in PHB we are using Faerunian Pantheon).
Can't I use this kind of cleric for support? Or is this already a "Clericzilla" as people call it? :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

I am not experienced about clerics, so I was checking some builds that includes Persist Spell+DMM with plannig+ another domain. (We are not using the gods that exist in PHB we are using Faerunian Pantheon).
Can't I use this kind of cleric for support? Or is this already a "Clericzilla" as people call it? :smallsmile:

That's a short-form Clericzilla. If you're using DMM Persist or Extend, you (generally) will wind up as a better melee type than any of the members of your party by a fair margin, while ALSO having access to your full spell list.

[Glimbur]

I am not experienced about clerics, so I was checking some builds that includes Persist Spell+DMM with plannig+ another domain. (We are not using the gods that exist in PHB we are using Faerunian Pantheon).
Can't I use this kind of cleric for support? Or is this already a "Clericzilla" as people call it? :smallsmile:

It depends on what you do with it. DMM Persist lets you be clericzilla, but there's no rule that says you have to persist Divine Power and Righteous Might. Find party-friendly spells to persist, or persist your defenses and cast party-wide buffs during combat.

[Xothguk]

That's a short-form Clericzilla. If you're using DMM Persist or Extend, you (generally) will wind up as a better melee type than any of the members of your party by a fair margin, while ALSO having access to your full spell list.

What makes a "long-form" Clericzilla? I think a melee oriented cleric would be good in this party while we have only one and a low tier melee fighter. And I was considering not to multiclass or PrC for not being stronger. What do you think?

[Malroth]

Instead of DMM persist via planning domains I'd reccomend toning the character down by being a cloistered cleric with the Kobald and trickery domains so you can be the party trap monkey when not buffing the melee guys.

[Amphetryon]

What makes a "long-form" Clericzilla? I think a melee oriented cleric would be good in this party while we have only one and a low tier melee fighter. And I was considering not to multiclass or PrC for not being stronger. What do you think?

"Long-form" and "short-form" as I used the terms here merely indicated that it looked like how one typically sees Clericzilla made, but most of the information on your actual build (what other Feats, what Spells, how you intend to play your Character in-game) was not delineated and, therefore, was left for the reader to assume. Bad things can happen when one assumes.

[Xothguk]

Instead of DMM persist via planning domains I'd reccomend toning the character down by being a cloistered cleric with the Kobald and trickery domains so you can be the party trap monkey when not buffing the melee guys.

If you mean the race Kobold, I can not pick that because of our DM's " Circus Squad" restriction. He prefers me to be Human or something else like that.


"Long-form" and "short-form" as I used the terms here merely indicated that it looked like how one typically sees Clericzilla made, but most of the information on your actual build (what other Feats, what Spells, how you intend to play your Character in-game) was not delineated and, therefore, was left for the reader to assume. Bad things can happen when one assumes.

And you are right abut assuming but actual build is not delineated because I haven't decided yet :smallredface:

[SciChronic]

you could be a factotum(Dungeonscape) they provide a large amount of versatility. You get Arcane abilities through Arcane Dilettante SLAs, you get some minor healing/turning through opportunistic Piety, you can still be stealthy/skillmonkey/face as you get all skills as class skills, and you can do good damage through things like Craven (will need to convince DM that Cunning strike qualifies as Sneak attack) or Knowledge Devotion.

[ericgrau]

Well I already see 2 melee, assuming the dwarf is one, so you could be a full caster or an archer. I don't think you actually need anything in particular.

If you go with the stealth party route, you might consider UMD and a wand of invisibility. The bard can handle noise issues with silence or better yet zone of silence, or you can also get a wand of silence. Make sure both you and foes are taking 10 on skill checks, or rolling a single check for the group, with listen penalties for distance. If the DM deviates from this in the slightest, abandon all skill checks immediately because statistically there is no hope. There will be one (un)lucky roll among the many and then stealth party over. Rely only on the wands and other spells if you have a DM who doesn't get it.

True you could also do that with a full caster, but even on a full caster wands are handy for situational spamming. So knowing the spells instead isn't that special. And outside of bard it's hard to get both invisibility and silence on your list. And sometimes, if your DM isn't too terrible about skills, you may want to conserve spells and only tag the paladin while you rely on skills.

[Waker]

I'd say go Cloistered Cleric with Trickery as one of your domains and maybe the Divine Magician acf from Complete Mage. You have access to plenty of skills, several of which are sneaky related. Plenty of good spells to buff, heal, blast or provide utility depending on your preferred style. You aren't inherently a good combatant but the option is there if you want it. As you level up, it's a handy idea to look at the Divine Oracle PrC from CDiv to provide another domain, evasion and some other little treats. You might also consider the Contemplative for other domains.

[Xothguk]

Well I already see 2 melee, assuming the dwarf is one, so you could be a full caster or an archer. I don't think you actually need anything in particular.


Our ranger will use his Combat Style on bows.



I'd say go Cloistered Cleric with Trickery as one of your domains and maybe the Divine Magician acf from Complete Mage. You have access to plenty of skills, several of which are sneaky related. Plenty of good spells to buff, heal, blast or provide utility depending on your preferred style. You aren't inherently a good combatant but the option is there if you want it. As you level up, it's a handy idea to look at the Divine Oracle PrC from CDiv to provide another domain, evasion and some other little treats. You might also consider the Contemplative for other domains.

One of the biggest questions that I have is revealed by you! How do we use ACF's can you tell me? As I've mentioned on OP, I am at starter level at D&D.

[eggynack]

One of the biggest questions that I have is revealed by you! How do we use ACF's can you tell me? As I've mentioned on OP, I am at starter level at D&D.
You basically just trade out the class feature it says for the one it gives you. In this case, you'd be trading out a domain for the ability to add wizard spells to your list at the rate found within the ACF, which is essentially one abjuration, divination or necromancy spell every odd level. Cloistered cleric is a variant class, but the idea's the same. You lose some hit die, base attack bonus, and armor proficiencies above light, and you gain knowledge domain, extra skills, extra spells, and the lore ability. It's pretty sweet for a character who wants to be more caster than melee cleric. Moreover, with some finagling, you can persist divine power on yourself to replace your poor attack bonus with the good attack bonus, while simultaneously buffing your strength and hit points. That stuff is a bit cheesy though, and probably a bit too powerful for the party.

Instead, I'd second the rogue option. Spell thief is fine, as you mentioned. The advantage of taking the spell thief path over the cleric path is that it's low powered, which means that you'll remain in balance with your low powered party. If you play a cleric, and do so with anything close to optimization, you risk overshadowing the rest of the party. Rogues, comparatively, are nestled comfortably at the ranger's power level, sandwiched between the somewhat higher powered bards, and the somewhat lower powered paladins. Thus, you can gain something approximating harmony.

Edit: Just making a note on ACF's in case it wasn't clear. You're unable to trade the same class feature twice. It seems obvious, but it's the main limiting factor on the amount of ACF's you can take.

[Xothguk]

I can replace any CF that I want, with a desired ACF, that simple huh? I should consider that option while creating my character.

I really understand and agree with "shadowing the party" ideas generally, but everybody picked their classes by their own will according to their desired roleplay.

After considering the options, I really want to play a cleric of Sharess, a hedonist man who lives at one of Sharess' festhalls. By using Travel and Trickery domains, I am planning to be the "Jaqen H'ghar" (GoT) of our campaign.

And I guess if you help me to build a cleric without optimizing him (by using those domains), we can decrease the possibility of shadowing the party a little bit, IMO.

[Waker]

For the future, here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) is a list of acfs for D&D. That page simply gives a brief summary of the acfs and their location, but it makes it much faster when everything is consolidated.

For your Cleric, my first suggestion for your character concept is that you look at the Changeling race from Eberron, also reprinted in MMIII. It has an at-will shapeshifting power which will help you with disguising yourself. As for overshadowing the party, I wouldn't worry about that too much. Clerics can be very powerful, but unless you resort to DMM+Persist shenanigans, you should be fine.
Aside from being a sneaky ne'er-do-well, did you have any idea of playstyle? That is, what is your usual approach to a problem, whether physical, diplomatic or whatever? Deciding that could influence our suggestions for your build.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to recomend

Rogue 5 / chameleon 10 / Something X

There, once you start to feel the bite from lack of spellcasters in the group the chameleon will be kicking in to give you some relief.

[Gwendol]

Go cleric. The good thing about them is that power is quite easily dialed up or down, even on a daily basis due to the extreme versatility the class offers. Try to get many domains, as that increases your versatility. One thing though: isn't the trickery domain going to make you look a little like the bard? Just some food for thought.
Cloistered cleric to get the knowledge domain is solid, your other two domains could be magic and whatever, planning maybe?

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to suggest Kobold Cleric for trapfinding!

[Xothguk]

First of all, as we are playing in Faerun, I can not select Changeling. I can only go with Human, or Lesser Aasimar. I have 22 points to spend on starting abilities of :8-10-10-10-10-10.

As domain wise I wanted to have "Time Stop". The domains that contain Time Stop are: Celerity,Planning,Time and Tricky. As a personal choice, I didn't want to use Lathander or Helm because, I want to play a Chatoic character. As a summary, from the list of Faerunian Pantheon the god that suits me most as a personal flavour is Sharess. From her domain list, I picked Travel next to Trickery, because I wanted fly,dimension door etc.

I don't plan on going Radiant Servant PrC because of my deity preference. Dunno about other PrCs. Tbh, my first option was DMM+Persist Spell, and I think I will stick to it, if the community won't guide me to another one :)

[Callin]

Just tossing this out there. Psychic Rogue.

That cleric sounds fine. Cyric was always my fav FR God.

[Gwendol]

Travel and trickery are solid choices, also go cloistered for knowledge.

Can you take knowledge devotion?

[Xothguk]

There is no restriction about it, I can take. But what CF you prefer to drop for taking Cloistered Cleric? And while having that much skills to use, will 6+Int modifier from Cloister Cleric be enough? Because as I've mentioned before I have to spend 22 points on 8-10-10-10-10-10.

P.S: Dunno if it is usual but, spending points scales like that:

From 8 to 13, 1 ability score = 1 point,
From 13 to 16, 1 ability score = 2 points,
From 16 to 17, 1 ability score = 3 points,
From 17 to 18, 1 ability score = 4 points.

[eggynack]

There is no restriction about it, I can take. But what CF you prefer to drop for taking Cloistered Cleric? And while having that much skills to use, will 4+Int modifier from Cloister Cleric be enough?
It's not really a choice when it comes to ACF's, and cloistered cleric isn't really an ACF. You just kinda make the modifications to the class as listed, no direct trades involved. For example, the variant specifically states that you have a d6 hit die, so you just sub in that hit die where the regular cleric says d8. In a combination with your other question, one of the changes of cloistered cleric is that it gets 6+int skill points, instead of 2+int for the regular cleric. Cloistered cleric is sweet like that.

Edit: You should probably just not invest so much into getting all 10's. You can generally dump strength, as you're mostly getting your strength from buffs, and you can mostly dump dex too, because you get heavy armor. I guess you could go with greater luminous armor instead to get both armor and full dex bonus, but it's a bit of an excuse to pump dex. Here is the point buy calculator (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html). I don't know if it's the same system as you're using, but it probably is.

Double edit: I think that the only change is that the shift from 17 to 18 should cost 3 instead of 4.

[Xothguk]

It's not really a choice when it comes to ACF's, and cloistered cleric isn't really an ACF. You just kinda make the modifications to the class as listed, no direct trades involved. For example, the variant specifically states that you have a d6 hit die, so you just sub in that hit die where the regular cleric says d8. In a combination with your other question, one of the changes of cloistered cleric is that it gets 6+int skill points, instead of 2+int for the regular cleric. Cloistered cleric is sweet like that.


With that post, I can say that now I know how ACFs work, thanks eggynack.:smallsmile:


EDIT: This is our Ability Score system:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2976/scoresaf.jpg

[only1doug]

This is our Ability Score system:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2976/scoresaf.jpg


Here is the point buy calculator (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html). I don't know if it's the same system as you're using, but it probably is.

Double edit: I think that the only change is that the shift from 17 to 18 should cost 3 instead of 4.

Kinda the same with a few key differences, it's effectively 32 point buy with only 1 stat being allowed to be below 10 and stats with 14's and 18's cost an additional point for each.

I'd avoid using the calculator as the numbers will be off in a number of ways.

Edit:

I have 22 points to spend on starting abilities of :8-10-10-10-10-10.



My ability scores are 10,10,12,13,13,16.

I make that 19 points spent:
raise the 8 to a 10 = 2 points
keep 10 = 0
raise 10 to 12 = 2 points
raise 10 to 13 = 3 points
raise 10 to 13 = 3 points
raise 10 to 16 = 9 points

You still have 3 points left to spend.

[Xothguk]

Any ability score suggestions for either Human or Lesser Aasimar DMM+Persist Melee Cleric by using our score system:

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9540/scoresn.jpg

[graymachine]

Human Cloistered Cleric

1st: Cloistered Cleric
2nd - 4th: Human Paragon
5th+: Cloistered Cleric

It's fairly rough, but how does that suit you? Sure, it is dumping a caster level with the first level of Human Paragon, but it seems like that should be a problem, give the party, unless the DM is planning to run you trough a meat grinder.

We could flesh this out much more, and tune it to the power level of your group, but I think it is a little unclear what you want to do with your cleric. Do you want to focus on healing? Buffing the party? Debuffing? Monster summoning? Necromancy? Go full out Clericzilla? Etc?

[Xothguk]

Because of lower HD and light armor restriction, I don't want to take Cloistered Cleric.
I am planning to be something like;

Lesser Aasimar

Str-13
Dex-9
Con-12
Int-12 (To give extra points to Disguise or Knowledges-for roleplay- while maximizing Concentration and Spellcraft)
Wis-18
Cha-16 (plus Extra Turning x2 = 14 turn Undead for Double Persistent Spells)

Was checking Radian Servant of Pelor before, but we are playing at Forgotten Realms and I prefer to play a Chaotic cleric thats why I've chosen Sharess-Travel and Trickery domains (for roleplay especially).

Feats: Extra Turningx2, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell,DMM, Reach Spell and dunno other slot yet.

I want to be at frontlines with my fighter while buffing and casting my spells.

[eggynack]

I'd probably bump that con some. Putting it at 10 seems a bit low. You should probably switch it with strength, int or cha. Constitution is pretty sweet, and DMM is bolstering your strength by a lot anyway. You can also use nightsticks to boost turn attempts in lieu of some amount of extra turning and charisma. Even if they aren't ruled to stack in your game, picking up at least one is worth it. There're probably other items that can boost turn attempts too.

[graymachine]

As the build stands, I think you are going to be doing the fighting and the Fighter is going to be support.

I still think you can get better mileage out of Human Paragon for your purposes, even with the caster level lost, but there's nothing wrong with Lesser Aasimar. Or you could look into Half-Dragon fun if there is LA buy-off in play, for more frontline goodness.

[eggynack]

As the build stands, I think you are going to be doing the fighting and the Fighter is going to be support.

I still think you can get better mileage out of Human Paragon for your purposes, even with the caster level lost, but there's nothing wrong with Lesser Aasimar. Or you could look into Half-Dragon fun if there is LA buy-off in play, for more frontline goodness.
I don't really see what would make human paragon good. It doesn't really do anything on the list of things I'd be willing to trade a caster level for. I can think of war weaver and sandshaper as things that do worthwhile things, but human paragon doesn't seem to be anywhere close.

Edit: I forgot, but malconvoker is also considered to be worth the loss of a caster level.

[graymachine]

I don't really see what would make human paragon good. It doesn't really do anything on the list of things I'd be willing to trade a caster level for. I can think of war weaver and sandshaper as things that do worthwhile things, but human paragon doesn't seem to be anywhere close.

Edit: I forgot, but malconvoker is also considered to be worth the loss of a caster level.

Hmm. Fair enough. I misremembered Human Paragon; just popped over to the SRD and corrected my memory.

[graymachine]

Just so I can try to salvage my Racial Paragon suggestion, perhaps Drow with a 1 level dip into Drow Paragon? The SR for Drow is ridiculous, you would gain an extra SLA use per day, and you would have no caster level loss, assuming you were female.

[Xothguk]

I can only go with Human, or Lesser Aasimar.

DM's restriction :)

[eggynack]

Just so I can try to salvage my Racial Paragon suggestion, perhaps Drow with aDrow Paragon? The SR for Drow is ridiculous, you would gain an extra SLA use per day, and you would have no caster level loss, assuming you were female.
There's no direct caster level loss, but you have to be a drow to do it. That means an LA of two which translates into two lost caster levels. You can probably do a bit better with buy off, but you only recoup the total loss at level 9, and it comes with the obvious XP buy off cost. It's probably not worth it for the stuff you get in return.

[graymachine]

There's no direct caster level loss, but you have to be a drow to do it. That means an LA of two which translates into two lost caster levels. You can probably do a bit better with buy off, but you only recoup the total loss at level 9, and it comes with the obvious XP buy off cost. It's probably not worth it for the stuff you get in return.

Argh, now I just feel dumb.

[Xothguk]

I've completed my character creation totally, special thanks to "eggynack":smallsmile:.

I have one last question to you guys; planning to take my feats in this order:

1-Extra Turning (Level-1)
2-Extend Spell (Level-3)
3-Persistent Spell (Level-6)
4-DMM (Persistent Spell) (Level-9)

Any other idea?

[eggynack]

Well, to start with you should probably take extra turning last, instead of first. It doesn't really do that much until after you have DMM. Second, have you considered skipping through half of those feats with domains? Planning was on your list of possible domains, and that crosses extend spell off the list right there. Undeath never shows up with planning, but it's good for a free extend spell, which is nice to have. Planning is the more important of the two, though you can pick both up if you pray to an ideal rather than a god.

[Xothguk]

So I should find a suitable ideal or philosophy that can include Plannig+Undeath, and fun to roleplay :)

EDIT: But Undeath is an evil domain I guess, am I right?

[eggynack]

If you want to go all out on DMM, then yeah, sure. If you went human, then you could theoretically get the whole set of feats at level one, but it's probably unnecessary. There are some guidelines on domain selection based off of ideals on page 52 of complete champion, so that could be helpful. Really, you can probably do just about anything as long as it's not wildly out of line. However, if you have to choose one, it should be planning. That one's actually vital, while extra turn attempts have some methods of approximating it.

[Xothguk]

I am checking page 52 right now. Hopefully, I will finish that cleric today.

[graymachine]

Well, despite having placed both of my feet firmly in my mouth, I'm curious as to the final build.

[jderk]

I think a Warmage would fit well. Since there are mostly tier 4 classes. Play best you can as a battlefield control.

But don't play as the flavor demands. Maybe Mage of the Arcane Order prc to add some extra utility spells.

Have your Bard play support! Dragonfire Inspiration optimization for the win (for everybody!)

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm pretty sure that Forgotten Realms only allows clerics of deities.

Why Dex 9 and Str 13? They give the same modifiers as Dex 8 and Str 12. That's like a build with an odd number of Fighter levels greater than 1; it is displeasing to the gods of optimization. Whereas Dex 10 & Str 12 would actually be, y'know, an improvement over Dex 8 & Str 12.

[Xothguk]

My goal was not optimizing the class, thats why I didn't pick Plannig Domain or strong PrC. Just wanted to be solid while having fun with my hedonist cleric of The Dancing Lady Sharess. So the final build is:

Lesser Aasimar - Sharessian Cleric with Travel and Trickery Domains,

Str:14
Dex:8
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:18
Cha:15

Feats:

lvl-1: Extend Spell
lvl-3: Persistent Spell
lvl-6: DMM
lvl-9: Extra Turning.

Haven't decided other feats yet because even reaching to level 9 will take very long time for us with our DM's playstyle :)

I don't think to change this build. So thanks to everyone who gave advice, inspiration and helped.