Optimus Prime

[Graytemplar]

Long post: I have a friend who has a deep voice and a penchant for spouting old Optimus Prime quotes from the original TV show. We are playing in a 3.5 game this semester that starts at level 4 and ends at level 8. Ideally, everyone would be playing balanced characters, but one of our fellow players has a penchant for power-gaming to the point of making all other characters redundant, and threatening violence (or other stupid shenanigans) if we don't do what he wants to do. With this in mind, we decided that optimus prime needs to be as overpowered as possible.

Short post: We want to build a low-level, high-power optimus prime. Levels 4-8, (hopefully recognizable as the character before halfway through the game). All books are available except for BOED, BOVD, and Psionics.

What I am tentatively working on:
Warforged dragonfire adept with human heritage plus humanoid shape?

Item of continuous alter self (with some means by which one can remove the hd limit)

Some sort of haunt shift abuse combined with a custom mundane statue (guess it could be built like a transformers toy)
Thanks in advance!

[Mando Knight]

Without having a truck mode, it's easier to do Primal (just a Warforged Druid that turns into an ape) than Prime...

[Graytemplar]

That's just a standard druid, and yes, I'm aware that druids are powerful, but it fails to be powerful or really hold to any form of Transforming robot, as it goes from robot to animal. If there was some way to make it an effigy ape, then it would still not be powerful enough, but at least fit the flavor.

[Graytemplar]

Could anyone tell me if the humanoid shape and human heritage invocation/feat combo work?

[nyarlathotep]

If you're going warforged something you could see about backporting the demonic auto from d20 modern.

[Diovid]

Warforged Druid using either Cityscape's City Soul ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) or the Urban Druid variant from Dragon Magazine #317.

[Zonugal]

Ideally, everyone would be playing balanced characters, but one of our fellow players has a penchant for power-gaming to the point of making all other characters redundant, and threatening violence (or other stupid shenanigans) if we don't do what he wants to do.

Come again?

[Graytemplar]

@Diovid: would either of those acf's or variants be available by levels 4-8? IIRC, City soul requires level 14 or something.

@Zonugal: Essentially, he typically plays a broken swordsage that turns concentration checks into perform checks, then uses every manuever that allows concentration checks for bonuses. He outright tells the party that if any party member but himself tries to speak to an npc, he will kill the party member. If anyone gets an item that he wants, (I had a sorcerer who spent most of his gp on a runestaff, for example) he uses an abused sleight of hand check to take it.

TL; Dr, everyone else is a side character to him, including other party members.

I began breaking my own, and other's characters, just so we don't become redundant/ can actually stand up to him.

[Zonugal]

@Zonugal: Essentially, he typically plays a broken swordsage that turns concentration checks into perform checks, then uses every manuever that allows concentration checks for bonuses. He outright tells the party that if any party member but himself tries to speak to an npc, he will kill the party member. If anyone gets an item that he wants, (I had a sorcerer who spent most of his gp on a runestaff, for example) he uses an abused sleight of hand check to take it.

TL; Dr, everyone else is a side character to him, including other party members.

I began breaking my own, and other's characters, just so we don't become redundant/ can actually stand up to him.

I don't understand why would you attempt to match his level as opposed to trying to fix this problem, and it is a problem, through direct conversation.

[Graytemplar]

We have, first with the player, then with the DM, but the dude's got a superiority complex about how well he can break characters, and the DM won't do anything because T gives him a ride to and from the university that we attend/ where we hold the games.

So the solution that I found was just to show him how he isn't that great at breaking characters. E.G. by countering everything he does. He tries to be stealthy, well my character is a war weaver who has mindsight and is ready to abuse celerity/ legion's snake's swiftness.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, those are NOT COOL behaviors. I would ether find another group of settle this OOC.

IC solutions are not going to work, but if you really want to, build the mailman and have the mailman flatten him the first IC threat he makes.

[Graytemplar]

I am looking for other groups to join, but in my area, the only other group is the one that I DM. Until a new group arises, I just try to treat this like an incredibly high-power group. T builds his broken character and is a jerk about it, I build my own character and offer help with other's as well. They give me a concept and I do my best to bring that concept to life and (hopefully) make it powerful. The thing that stumps me though, is making optimus prime at low levels. Does anyone know if the humanoid shape + human heritage feat is a viable combo?

[Vicerious]

@Zonugal: Essentially, he typically plays a broken swordsage that turns concentration checks into perform checks, then uses every manuever that allows concentration checks for bonuses. He outright tells the party that if any party member but himself tries to speak to an npc, he will kill the party member. If anyone gets an item that he wants, (I had a sorcerer who spent most of his gp on a runestaff, for example) he uses an abused sleight of hand check to take it.

Besides the fact he's a jerk who doesn't deserve to play D&D, he's not even any good. That build isn't broken good, it's broken illegal or non-functional. Swordsages do not get Perform or Sleight of Hand as class skills.

[Fable Wright]

I'm thinking a Goliath Shapeshifter Druid 1/Mountain Rage Barbarian 1/Warblade 1 going into Idiot Crusader might fit the bill nicely. Truck form? Refluffed Predator Form with a Slam instead of a Bite attack. If you get him angry? He goes into a Rage from Predator form, which you refluff as him turning into a giant version of himself. The Slam from Predator form is now him slamming into someone with his arm instead of running them over, and he does a good amount of damage from all of the Strength bonuses he gets. Instead of the refluffing, getting a Mouthpick Greatsword (LoM p. 46) would be handy, as he could use them when he's raging either in or out of predator form.

In combat, on top of great racial stats, he gets +10 Str, +4 Con, net +1 AC (+4 Natural armor from predator form, -3 from the Mountain Rage and lost Dex), automatic full reset on all granted maneuvers from Crusader, 50ft movement speed, and at level 6, you give him Martial Study (Wall of Blades) to add to the Crusader maneuver list so he can use that strength to make up for his dumped defense. Using Punishing Stance when that comes online might not be a bad idea, as well.

[Daftendirekt]

but it fails to be powerful or really hold to any form of Transforming robot, as it goes from robot to animal.

Clearly you never watched Beast Wars. Shame...

[Graytemplar]

I feel like getting to large size isn't enough to really call it a transformer, especially since he won't even be a construct. But having a mouthpick weapon gives me a great idea for representing the weaponry that randomly pops out of vehicle form.

[Graytemplar]

Clearly you never watched Beast Wars. Shame...

I have, (In my opinion, it's the best transformers series) but it would have to be an effigy ape, which isn't really an option.

Now, turning into a warforged charger, which is explicitly described as "ape-like" would be an interesting adaptation. Couple this with a nightmare hauntshifted into a hoverboard-shaped piece of iron, and Primal's main movement mode is covered.

[Zonugal]

You could always do a simple build of:

Warforged Wildshaping Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms X/Warshaper X

[Graytemplar]

Unless there is some means by which he could wild-shape into a construct within levels 4-8, that venue is off the table. I'm still asking if anyone can speak for or against the humanoid shape and human heritage feat combination. Failing that, is there some way to remove the hd limit on forms assumed with alter self?

[Rubik]

If you tossed the divine minion template onto a warforged he could wild shape as an 11th level druid at level 2. If LA buyoff is in effect, you could knock that LA off and enjoy transforming without a level adjustment.

And Human Heritage is a feat that can be taken by anyone, so long as there's a human in their ancestry. If your warforged has, say, human flesh as part of what he's constructed of, this might work (DM willing). The feat can be taken by anyone who could conceivably have humans in his ancestry (and since humans can breed with virtually anything -- much like dragons can -- this could be done with nearly anything), but warforged are rather dubious as to whether they can even HAVE an ancestry.

[Fable Wright]

I feel like getting to large size isn't enough to really call it a transformer, especially since he won't even be a construct. But having a mouthpick weapon gives me a great idea for representing the weaponry that randomly pops out of vehicle form.
Large size isn't big enough to really do a Transformer justice, but it is better than nothing.

One note about Shapeshifter Druid: When you shapeshift, you don't lose your type, so if you're a Warforged, you can be a Construct in Predator form.

If you would like to increase size categories at all rather than just cutting your losses in that field, making it a Psiforged and taking some levels in Ardent would be able to grant you Expansion for Large size. Ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester and Psiforged would allow you to get to Large size 1/day for 40 minutes. Combined with Predator Form, you could pass off as a truck decently well. Using the Justice and Freedom mantles would be rather fitting, as well. (Physical Power would be better offensively than the Justice mantle, but it's less in-character.) (Expansion can be added to the lists via the variant in the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Substitute Powers variant.)

Going Psiforged Druid 1/Ardent 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1 would be fairly decent, with Crusader's Strike at will, Shapeshift boosts to Str, Natural Armor, and speed (you could Run up to 240ft per round, making you a decent vehicle). Also, at level 5, you're able to store 3 power points in your Psionic Body, so then you'd be able to become Large twice per day on occasion. Your feats would be pretty tight for the first few levels (level 1 has to be Psiforged Body, level 3 Practiced Manifester, and if you have access to Flaws, you're going to need to grab Power Attack) but it could turn out to be a pretty decent build.

[Rubik]

I believe he said that psionics was banned.

Is there a reason for that, Mr. O.P.?

[Immabozo]

I cant recall what the enchantment is called, but it's a cleric spell, I believe, that you can place on an item and if the person puts it on willingly, there is no saving throw allowed, and it is a dominate monster effect.

So put that on a nice ring and take advantage of his superiority complex and that he will steal it and stick him with a no-save dominate "you're my female dog".

Or, better yet, put it on a "third eye" from MIC, probably the +10 to concentrate checks one, to ensure he puts it on.

[Fable Wright]

I believe he said that psionics was banned.

Is there a reason for that, Mr. O.P.?

Dang, missed that. And magic wouldn't work similarly, as Enlarge Person only works on humanoids and not constructs...

If it's just because of book availability, all of the important bits can be found online. Otherwise...

[Fyermind]

My Suggestion would be:
Divine Minion Warforged
Artificer 3
level ups all go into artificer.
Focus on melee.
Make items into your own body (you can do that at a 10% discount for requires my race too) to give you disguise self at will and other abilities you want

Infusions and the ability to turn into a beast with full adamantine plating should do pretty well to mimic transforming.

[Waker]

My suggestion is Sorcerer Gish (Paladin, Abjurant Champion...) and rely on Alter Self to transform into an animated cart (refluffed as a truck).

[Graytemplar]

I believe he said that psionics was banned.

Is there a reason for that, Mr. O.P.?

The DM is unfamiliar with the system and "T" keeps telling him that it's "an unbalanced alternative system to magic."

Right now, the warforged divine minion might be best, Thoth for baboon (Optimus Primal) and Hawk (Jet?) forms.

This, with Human Heritage to get Jotunbrud and make enlarge person viable.

Edit: but I forget, it's a robot turning into a not-robot animal, which completely breaks the theme.

[Fable Wright]

My suggestion is Sorcerer Gish (Paladin, Abjurant Champion...) and rely on Alter Self to transform into an animated cart (refluffed as a truck).

While Sorcadin is probably a bad idea, given that Cha has a racial penalty, Alter Self would be a great idea.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1 with Mithral Body, Flaw: Precocious Apprentice for Alter Self, and Flaw: Versatile Spellcaster could actually work for transforming. Battle Sorcerer takes away the ASF from Mithral Body, Precocious Apprentice grants a second level spell known, and Versatile Spellcaster means that your 1st level spells can be used to cast it without the normal caster level check. Versatile Spellcaster at 3rd level means that you would be able to assume two critical forms: Warforged Charger (MM3), and Animated Cart/Wagon for the truck form. From there, you could go into ToB classes (I really think that Optimus Prime should be a Crusader) after a 1-level dip in a class of your choice first.

Also, recommending Blade of Blood as first level spell known. Excellent swift action damage boost, and Crusader can restore the HP cost very easily.

[Graytemplar]

Hmmm... crusader would definitely be appropriate, but only really for white raven maneuvers....

Martial study or a later level dip will net him those maneuvers, but in a dnd setting optimus prime is a rediculously powerful robot first, crusader second.

Could he put alter self on an artificer?

[Waker]

While Sorcadin is probably a bad idea, given that Cha has a racial penalty, Alter Self would be a great idea.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1 with Mithral Body, Flaw: Precocious Apprentice for Alter Self, and Flaw: Versatile Spellcaster could actually work for transforming. Battle Sorcerer takes away the ASF from Mithral Body, Precocious Apprentice grants a second level spell known, and Versatile Spellcaster means that your 1st level spells can be used to cast it without the normal caster level check. Versatile Spellcaster at 3rd level means that you would be able to assume two critical forms: Warforged Charger (MM3), and Animated Cart/Wagon for the truck form. From there, you could go into ToB classes (I really think that Optimus Prime should be a Crusader) after a 1-level dip in a class of your choice first.

Also, recommending Blade of Blood as first level spell known. Excellent swift action damage boost, and Crusader can restore the HP cost very easily.

The Charisma penalty does hurt a bit. I simply suggested the usual Sorcadin build because
1. Many people are familiar with it
2. I literally woke up right before posting, so my mental processes weren't quite there yet.

Paladin or Crusader are both good dips for the character, depending on which build you want to go. Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer work fine if you don't mind the spell loss, but note that if you go into a PrC you lose quite a bit since you don't get the bonus HP and whatnot but still have less spells. Some of the decent gish PrCs to check out are: Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, Spellsword, Jade Phoenix Mage.


Could he put alter self on an artificer?
Well, I refuse to look up the item creation rules, on account of me hating them, but I'm pretty sure an artificer could create a custom at-will alter self item.

[Fable Wright]

Hmmm... crusader would definitely be appropriate, but only really for white raven maneuvers....

Martial study or a later level dip will net him those maneuvers, but in a dnd setting optimus prime is a rediculously powerful robot first, crusader second.

Could he put alter self on an artificer?
Artificer probably can get a custom item of Alter Self if the DM is amenable to it. In other words, there's no guarantee. The closest thing that's been published would be Skin of Proteus, which is both psionic and ridiculously expensive. There's also no way to get the capability with a one-level dip.

Also, the problem with building Optimus Prime as just a ridiculously powerful robot is that, well, D&D doesn't really have a class for ridiculously powerful tanking. Warblades and/or Crusaders are the best classes for representing ridiculously powerful robots, because they're about being awesome at melee. Filing the fluff off the classes, an Idiot Crusader build would probably be best for building Optimus Prime: Excellent durability, inspirational ability, and the ability to deliver crushing blows. Devoted Spirit is similar, mechanically, to White Raven at level 1, with the added bonus of being able to restore hit points (fluffed as inspiring yourself and allies to keep fighting in the book) and is a pretty good fit in general. Besides, the goal of Idiot Crusader is to not be a Crusader; just (ab)use its maneuver refresh mechanics on the chosen maneuvers. Between all the level 1 Stone Dragon, White Raven, and Devoted Spirit, you have all the tools you need to make Optimus, and after getting Martial Study at level 6 to give him auto-refresh on Wall of Blades, you get a good way to model a ridiculously powerful robot.

The Charisma penalty does hurt a bit. I simply suggested the usual Sorcadin build because
1. Many people are familiar with it
2. I literally woke up right before posting, so my mental processes weren't quite there yet.

Paladin or Crusader are both good dips for the character, depending on which build you want to go. Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer work fine if you don't mind the spell loss, but note that if you go into a PrC you lose quite a bit since you don't get the bonus HP and whatnot but still have less spells. Some of the decent gish PrCs to check out are: Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, Spellsword, Jade Phoenix Mage.
Personally, I'm not recommending a gish, as Optimus Prime doesn't, to my knowledge, cast spells. And as you get access to increasing number of spells, the number of non-obvious magical effects you can use goes down.

[Waker]

Personally, I'm not recommending a gish, as Optimus Prime doesn't, to my knowledge, cast spells. And as you get access to increasing number of spells, the number of non-obvious magical effects you can use goes down.
I'm only recommending the Gish so as to have ready access to the Alter Self usage while still having some combat ability. If he could get a magic item with at-will Alter Self, I would say that going Warblade or Crusader into something like Warforged Juggernaut would be a better representative of a "ridiculously powerful robot." It is possible the DM would be more lenient with the magic item idea if you stipulated that it would only allow the one other form, that of an animated cart.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. I've had to deal with someone before, in a similar situation that was "I am the star, you're all just my backup singers" type. Even worse because rather than try to optimize his characters he just used blatantly loaded dice to achieve a similar result.

The solution was that I put him in a situation where his brokenness and his ego were a non-factor and a detriment. It doesn't matter how high you can make your stealth skills if you have nowhere to hide. It doesn't matter how nimble your fingers are if you cannot get a clear approach at the target. It doesn't matter how hard you can punch when your opponent is out of arm's reach.

In the case of that player? I twisted his actions so his "Lawful Good" shiny hero that everyone loves was revealed to be the worst sort of villain, universally despised and basically blamed ICily for everything that is going wrong with the world. Wasn't even all that much of a stretch really. His actions were borderline/obviously evil anyway.

For all his blatantly loaded dice and attempts to be a shining hero? He still failed. There wasn't anything he could have rolled that would have fixed his situation. He was faced with overwhelming numbers of coordinated people who I had convinced to hate his guys.

The fact that his evil actions were then blatantly pointed out as evil did end up altering his behavior. Having it rubbed in his face ICily, and everyone just nodding along, saying "Yeah... using Charm spells to get into people's bed is probably rapey... and putting people in mortal danger so you can be the Hero is probably evil... and unleashing a demon apocalypse and scouring the planet for Demonic Artifacts to power you up, so you can "reclaim" your throne is probably evil... and unleashing a Dragon God to clean up your Demon Apocalypse so you can be the Hero who saves the world is probably evil... and then calling for the Demon Prince of Indiscriminate Slaughter and Carnage to kill the Dragon God you cannot control is probably also evil..."

And that epilogue to the campaign got through to him a lot more our OOC discussions with him yet.

[danzibr]

The DM is unfamiliar with the system and "T" keeps telling him that it's "an unbalanced alternative system to magic."
This guy is either lying or clearly doesn't know as much about DnD as he thinks he does.

[Fable Wright]

I'm only recommending the Gish so as to have ready access to the Alter Self usage while still having some combat ability. If he could get a magic item with at-will Alter Self, I would say that going Warblade or Crusader into something like Warforged Juggernaut would be a better representative of a "ridiculously powerful robot." It is possible the DM would be more lenient with the magic item idea if you stipulated that it would only allow the one other form, that of an animated cart.

With two levels of Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (actually not a bad lead-in for Warblade/Crusader), you're able to cast Alter Self 2/day without failure from Versatile Spellcaster, and 1/day with a 15% failure chance. By level 6, this chance is reduced to 5%. Those levels are also rather good at tanking, as the average HP from them is the same as a d12 HD. (Also note that Divine Companion, from Complete Champion, is a pretty good ACF for combat-oriented sorcerers. Gives you improved defensive capabilities in the form of deflection bonuses to AC and healing in a pinch.)

So, my final recommendation for a Prime build would be Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 2/Warblade 1/Crusader 1 taking additional levels in Warblade into Jade Phoenix Mage (Ending up taking Warblade 2/JPM 2) and picking up Martial Study for Wall of Blades on the Crusader side at level 6. It gives you a mostly mundane martial badass that can turn into a giant robot (with incredible strength, constitution, and armor) or a truck a few times per day, is difficult to damage with attacks, can inspire combat skills and reinvigorate itself and others, and deal impressive damage with attacks that bypass defenses others struggle with. Sound close enough to Optimus Prime for you?

[Graytemplar]

Thanks everybody. Especially DMofDarkness, or SuaveXykon as your avatar denotes. He ultimately decided to go artificer because he'd rather focus on being a transformer rather than anyone in particular. He will be building all of his magic items into himself, including a few maneuver items from Tome of Battle.