Piggy Knowles' Archer Build Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 11:58 AM

In the same vein as ksbsnowowl’s excellent archer thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=653.0), I thought I’d put together a build compendium of some ranged builds that I’ve been working on. This has all existed basically as a Google Doc for some time, since for some reason I love tinkering with ranged builds. A recent thread on archery’s shortcomings made me decide to put this together in a more complete form, and try to strengthen up some of these builds a bit.

It's worth noting that some of these builds barely even qualify as archers - the Totemist, for example, is just a standard ranged Totemist with special focus on the Manticore Belt. Still, I like having this around for any time I'm considering playing a ranged build.

In any case, there are three things that I always try to keep in mind when building an archer:

1. Do something useful besides archery.

Every single one of these builds is meant to fulfill at least one other party role besides “damage dealer.” I like having something handy to do in most situations, and build accordingly.

The thing is, archers can be surprisingly easy to shut down. Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, high damage reduction, weather conditions, concealment - all of these wreak havoc on the standard archer.

Also, while I absolutely love archers thematically, they share a problem with uberchargers - they’re kind of boring. A charger build probably only has a couple of tactically useful things it can do on any given round, and most of those are some variation of “charge and Power Attack for full.” The same is often true for archers. Without some other party role, they can get very repetitive.

2. Knowledge skills are important.

Unless you’re willing to metagame like crazy, I believe that any archer needs to dedicate a few skill points to most of the monster-related knowledge skills. The biggest reason for this is damage reduction. Damage reduction is the bane of the archer’s existence - it can turn a volley of 8 attacks into a joke. A good archer will carry a variety of arrows to pierce most types of DR, but if you don’t know what you’re fighting, you won’t know how to use them.

Monster identification can certainly be passed on to another party member, but at the end of the day, it’s your responsibility. At the bare minimum, I always push in at least a point for each, so I can make the checks at all. As an added bonus, those knowledge skills feed the easiest source of bonus damage out there - Knowledge Devotion.

3. No over-reliance on precision damage.

Archery is already surprisingly easy to shut down (see point 1). Making your archery build ALSO contingent on precision damage is an easy way to spend a lot of combat sessions feeling useless.

Entire swaths of enemies are immune to precision damage. And no, I’m not talking about undead and constructs - thanks to things like Swift Hunter and weapon crystals, these are actually the least of your problems. But there are a lot of OTHER things that cancel out precision damage, things that are not so easy to get around (especially without Penetrating Strike). Any concealment at all renders precision damage impossible, for example. Fortification is another big concern.

None of these problems are insurmountable, and I’ve seen decent ranged builds that rely on precision damage (Stormwind & co.’s Chaingun Porcupine (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29255309/), for instance). But I don’t like doing it. Like I said, archery is easy enough to shut down on its own. Instead, I prefer to have precision damage be a nice bonus, an easy way to rack up extra damage when I do come across susceptible enemies.

So yeah, while several of these builds might include precision elements, they are all designed to still be decent if that side of things gets shut down for any reason.

Anyhow, here are the archers!

The Zen Chameleon, a Wis-centric Chameleon/Soulbow with splashes of Swordsage
Soul Dreamer, a Chameleon/Earth Dreamer alongside Incarnate
The Ultimate Arcane Archer, a build that combines all the goodness of Chameleon's dual casting with Arcane Archer
Savage Singer, an iconic bard 20 archer
Arrow of the White Raven, a DFI bardblade archer
The Strafing Manticore, a totemist 20 focused on making strafing flyby Manticore Belt attacks
The TISP Sniper, an Arcane Archer/Nar Demonbinder/Unseen Seer that can see and fire imbued arrows through walls
The Psycarnum Archer, a neraph ranger/psychic warrior with splashes of incarnum to fuel bonus damage and PP recharge tricks
The Murderous Sniper, my take on ksbsnowowl's classic sniper archer, which relies on Murderous Intent and hunter's mercy to deliver track down enemies and headshot them from afar
Factotum Poison Archer, a factotum-based archer that creates poisons and uses Phase Cloak to ethereally phase in, fire off several volleys of poison arrows, and then phase back out.

..................................................

In my opinion, it is hard to find a better archery prestige class than Chameleon. Access to all of the best archer-specific spells, an excellent pool of turning for divine metamagic, decent base chassis, easy to qualify for - if there's a better prestige class, I have yet to find it.

In any case, three of my archery builds currently involve the Chameleon. Though the builds look similar from the outset, they've got some differences. One is an arcane archer focused on single debuffing shots, one is a Wis-centric zen archer, and one focuses on Sighting Gloves for bonus damage.

The Zen Chameleon

BUILD STUB: Human, Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Planning, Trickery) 1/Soulknife 2/Ranger 2/Soulbow 2/Chameleon 10/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1

PROGRESSION:

1. Cloistered Cleric1- Point Blank Shot, Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
2. Soulknife1- Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation)
3. Ranger1- Track, Precise Shot
4. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
5. Soulknife2-
6. Soulbow1- Zen Archery, Persistent Spell
7. Soulbow2-
8. Chameleon1-
9. Chameleon2- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10. Chameleon3-
11. Chameleon4-
12. Chameleon5- Extra Turning
13. Chameleon6-
14. Chameleon7-
15. Chameleon8- Travel Devotion
16. Chameleon9-
17. Chameleon10-
18. Swordsage1- Woodland Archer
19. Swordsage2-
20. Warblade1-

This is my attempt at a solely Wis-centric zen archer. Ends up with Wisdom to attack, damage and AC, in addition to powering Chameleon spellcasting. I must say, I do like Chameleon alongside a splash of initiating classes, for the ability to pick up Martial Study for maneuvers on demand. (I do similar things with the incarnate archer, picking up Totemist-only soulmelds or chakra binds when necessary).

Soul Dreamer

BUILD STUB: Azurin, Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Trickery, Planning) 1/Incarnate 2/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/Earth Dreamer 5

PROGRESSION:

1. Cloistered Cleric1- Able Learner, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, DMM (Persistent Spell)
4. Incarnate1-
5. Incarnate2-
6. Chameleon1- Earth Sense
7. Chameleon2-
8. Earth Dreamer1-
9. Earth Dreamer2- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
10. Earth Dreamer3-
11. Earth Dreamer4-
12. Earth Dreamer5- Chain Spell
13. Chameleon3-
14. Chameleon4-
15. Chameleon5- DMM (Chain Spell)
16. Chameleon6-
17. Chameleon7-
18. Chameleon8- Extra Turning
19. Chameleon9-
20. Chameleon10-

This was actually an early draft for the Archer Assassin, but I liked it so much that I branched it off on its own. In addition to the standard persist shenanigans, this also uses DMM (Chain) to apply Brilliant Energy Arrow to all her arrows as a swift action. Earth Dreamer provides Earth Glide and Earth Sight to stalk enemies from afar, while Chameleon's floating feat can be used to nab higher level chakra binds or totemist soulmelds when necessary.

Ultimate Arcane Archer

BUILD STUB: Half-Elf, Half-Elf Paragon 3/Martial Wizard 1/Cloistered Cleric (Trickery, Planning) 1/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Death Delver 1

PROGRESSION:

1. Half-Elf Paragon1- Human Heritage, Able Learner
2. Cloistered Cleric1- Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
3. Wizard1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
4. Fighter1- Rapid Shot
5. Fighter2- Weapon Focus (longbow)
6. Chameleon1- Persistent Spell
7. Chameleon2-
8. Chameleon3-
9. Chameleon4- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10. Arcane Archer1-
11. Arcane Archer2-
12. Chameleon5- Extra Turning
13. Chameleon6-
14. Chameleon7-
15. Chameleon8- Extra Turning
16. Chameleon9-
17. Chameleon10-
18. Death Delver1- Extra Turning
19. Half-Elf Paragon2-
20. Half-Elf Paragon3-

OK, I love Arcane Archer, and I love Chameleon, so it should be no big surprise that I tried to get them both into the same build. Half-Elf Paragon lets me take both Human Heritage and Able Learner at first level, allowing me to qualify for both Arcane Archer and Chameleon down the road.

This should allow me to persist a ridiculous number of buffs, depending on how your DM interprets mimic class feature - with five turning pools (cleric, death delver, mimic class feature x3), that's 75 + (5xCha) turn attempts before items. In any case, as for spells to imbue, there are a huge number of options, since as a Chameleon you can cast just about any spell in the game of 6th-level or below. The classic is AMF, of course. You can also pick up Control Weather off the shugenja list as a 6th-level spell, and that's a fun one to imbue. Guards and Wards is another.

Another great damage source is Inspire Courage. I couldn't help but do a vanilla bard 20 inspire build, even though it doesn't really have anything too new or exciting about it. I also put together a Song of the White Raven bard/warblade archer, which is actually one of my favorite builds on this compendium.

Savage Singer

BUILD STUB: Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard 20
ACFs: Bardic Knack, Music of Creation

PROGRESSION:

1- Dragonfire Inspiration, Point Blank Shot
3- Knowledge Devotion
6- Rapid Shot, Song of the Heart
9- Precise Shot
12- Words of Creation
15- Woodland Archer
18- Improved Precise Shot

Spells Known:
1- Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Silent Image, Grease, Swift Invisibility
2- Alter Self, Glitterdust, Pass Without Trace, Sonorous Hum, Harmonize
3- Haste, Dispel Magic*, Glibness, Alter Fortune, Charm Monster
4- Dimension Door, Summon Nature’s Ally IV, Shadow Conjuration, Celerity, Ruin Delver’s Fortune
5- Commune With Nature, Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic, Mislead, Shadow Walk
6- Superior Resistance, Find the Path, Reincarnate, Greater Scrying

*Retrain to Slow when Greater Dispel is taken.

I decided I ought to have at least one standard bard archer (barcher? archard?) here. This is nothing fancy - just a fairly straightforward IC build, with an archery focus. Bardic Knack + Knowledge Devotion is a nice little damage boost across the board, and with regular Inspire Courage, DFI, Knowledge Devotion and haste, it should actually be putting out pretty solid numbers.

My original version of this build was more of a tracker, and involved a rat familiar with Stealthy PsyRef’d out for Track. But I decided I wanted to make this build as straightforward as possible, and so went this way.

Arrow of the White Raven

BUILD STUB: Silverbrow Human, Bard 3/Warblade 17
(Alternately, go Bard 4/Warblade 16. One fewer maneuver per day, but more uses of bardic music when it counts. Especially valuable if you can't take flaws to get Extra Music early.)

PROGRESSION:

FEATS:
1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3- Rapid Shot
6- Song of the Heart
8- Improved Initiative
9- Song of the White Raven
12- Dragonfire Inspiration, Iron Will
15- Woodland Archer
16- Great Fortitude
18- Extra Music
20- Blind-Fight

MANEUVERS:
1- Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Attack
2- Wall of Blades, Action Before Thought
3- White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge
4- Covering Strike
5- Iron Heart Focus, Mountain Hammer
6- Order Forged from Chaos
7- Iron Heart Endurance, Quicksilver Motion
8- Raging Mongoose, Diamond Defense
9- Time Stands Still

STANCES:
Blood in the Water, Hunter's Sense, Hearing the Air, Stance of Alacrity

This is basically just combining everything I love about bard archers with everything I love about warblades. This build is especially good at making crazy volley attacks, which alongside Blood in the Water and Woodland Archer will rack up some pretty decent damage as time goes on. It also has the standard DFI/IC/Song of the Heart goodies.

If I were to play any of these builds tomorrow, it would probably be this one.

Next, I wanted to put together a decent build that utilizes the Manticore Belt. Of course, after I built this, Stormwind&Co more or less blew it out of the water with the Chaingun Porcupine, but I still really like the simplicity of this one.

The Strafing Manticore

BUILD STUB: Azurin, Totemist 20

PROGRESSION:
1- Darkstalker, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
3- Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
6- Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)
9- Double Chakra (Totem)
12- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
15- Craven
18- Bonus Essentia

Focusing on the Manticore Belt, this build is a ranged skirmisher. The idea is to be constantly surrounded in an inky cloud of darkness, swooping by and releasing a huge volley of spines. Manticore Belt bound to the Waist gives excellent Fly speed plus Flyby attack, while binding it to the chakra gives you the ability to fire one spine per essentia invested as a standard action... and by 14th level, both should be bound. The Shadow Mantle’s shoulders not only surrounds you in a globe of magical darkness (which, unlike regular darkness, explicitly prevents any sight), it also gives you blindsight within that globe. This should make it very easy to activate sneak attack via Assassin’s Stance, and Craven damage.

Instead of blowing two feats on PBS/Precise Shot, instead the build blows one feat on Sighting Gloves, which give the same benefit but also provide a significant damage boost.

Plus, you know, you’re a level 20 Totemist, so you’ve got skill boosters out the wazoo, can switch to melee when necessary, etc.

NOTE: Rules Compendium states that a volley attack is ANY attack that fires multiple shots in less than a full round, even if there are separate attack rolls for each, and in a volley only the first hit applies precision damage. If that ruling is in effect, the damage on this build goes down considerably against precision-vulnerable enemies, although it still has some decent utility and potential damage. Check with your DM.

Next, a build that might not fly at most tables, but that I'm pretty proud of:

The TISP Sniper

BUILD STUB: Gray Elf, Feat Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Martial Wizard 1/Assassin 1/Earth Dreamer 5/Arcane Archer 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Unseen Seer 6
ACFs: Feat rogue, martial wizard, immediate magic (abrupt jaunt)

PROGRESSION:
1. Feat Rogue1- Point Blank Shot, Darkstalker
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Iron Will
4. Feat Rogue2- Precise Shot
5. Martial Wizard1- Weapon Focus (Longbow)
6. Assassin1- Earth Spell
7. Unseen Seer1-
8. Earth Dreamer1-
9. Earth Dreamer2- Spell Focus (Conjuration)
10. Arcane Archer1-
11. Arcane Archer2-
12. Earth Dreamer3- Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
13. Earth Dreamer4-
14. Earth Dreamer5-
15. Nar Demonbinder1- Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin)
16. Unseen Seer2-
17. Unseen Seer3-
18. Unseen Seer4- Practiced Spellcaster (Nar Demonbinder)
19. Unseen Seer5-
20. Unseen Seer6-

Assassin spells known:
1- Sniper's Shot, True Strike, Shock and Awe, Ebon Eyes
2- Brilliant Energy Arrow, Spellslayer Arrow, Alter Self, Darkness
3- Create Fetch, Arrowsplit, Magic Circle Against Good, False Life
4- Assassin's Darkness, Glibness

Nar Demonbinder spells known:
2- Hunter's Eye*
4- Lesser Planar Binding, Dimensional Anchor, SMIV, Wall of Fire
5- Flame Strike, Plane Shift, Spell Resistance, SMV
6- Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Fiendform
7- Blasphemy, Fire Storm, Moment of Prescience*
8- Greater Planar Binding

*Advanced Learning

The goal of this build is to combine Earth Dreamer's Earth Sight ability with the Assassin spell Brilliant Energy Arrow. The idea is to be able to fire brilliant energy arrows through dirt, walls, etc., from hiding. Since Brilliant Energy Arrow means I'll be firing single shots, I thought I'd add in Arcane Archer for Imbue Arrow. This way I can fire things like Blasphemy or Fire Storm from the other side of a wall.

Now, just to get this out of the way: your DM has every reason to say this won't work. Brilliant Energy does not turn the whole weapon into brilliant energy, only a significant portion (the head of the arrow). Technically it still says that the arrow will ignore any nonliving material, but it's a stretch, and I would highly recommend getting this DM-approved before springing it on anyone (as I would with any build). I'm mostly going by rule of cool here - the idea of tracking someone from behind a wall or underneath their feat, then peppering them with imbued brilliant energy arrows, is just too cool to not include.

Next, the Psycarnum Archer - a Wis-focused Psychic Warrior archer gish that uses incarnum-based PP recharge and augment tricks.

The Psycarnum Archer

BUILD STUB: Neraph, Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 18

PROGRESSION:

Feats:
1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent
4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion
5. PsyWar3-
6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity
8. PsyWar6-
9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment
10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation
11. PsyWar9-
12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity
13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation
14. PsyWar12-
15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
17. PsyWar15-
18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar)
19. PsyWar17- Linked Power
20. PsyWar18-

Powers:
1- Expansion, Metaphysical Weapon, Extend Range
2- Hustle, Psionic Scent, Damp Power
3- Greater Concealing Amorpha, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier/Telekinetic Boomerang
4- Schism, Metamorphosis, Steadfast Perception, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier
5- Empower Weapon, Oak Body, Change Fate
6- Personal Mind Blank, Dispelling Buffer, Inconstant Location

Several ways to regain and expend psionic focus each round, to feed Psycarnum Infusion
Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent to break the PsyWar's low PP problem
A soulmeld that grants Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, letting this become a build that totally dumps Dex in favor of Wis (yay for more bonus PP!)
Ability to metamorph into an Arrow Demon for multiple full attacks each round
Bonus damage via Sighting Gloves or bonus attack via Incarnate Avatar as needed (and able to be maxed out when necessary via Psycarnum Infusion again)
Ability to augment powers to their max without expending additional PP with Midnight Augmentation + Psycarnum Infusion, mostly used for long lasting powers
Ranger levels to gain Rapid Shot without needing pre-reqs, and also to open up wand chambers of swift action Ranger archery spells

Finally, the Murderous Sniper. This is my take on ksbsnowowl's classic Deepwood Sniper archer. The build relies on Murderous Intent combined with hunter's mercy to make single high-critting shots from distance.

The Murderous Sniper

BUILD STUB: Human, Ranger 2/Wilderness Feat Rogue 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Chameleon 7

PROGRESSION:

(Dedicated to an Elder Evil of your choosing.)

1. Feat Rogue1- PBS, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Evil Brand
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Darkstalker
4. Feat Rogue2- WF (Comp. Longbow)
5. Feat Rogue3- Blood War Conscript
6. Feat Rogue4- Far Shot, Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
7. Deepwood Sniper1-
8. DWS2-
9. DWS3- Knowledge Devotion
10. DWS4- Murderous Intent
11. Chameleon1-
12. Chameleon2- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
13. DWS5-
14. DWS6-
15. DWS7- Apostate, Craven
16. Chameleon3-
17. Chameleon4-
18. Chameleon5- Maiming Strike
19. Chameleon6-
20. Chameleon7- Insane Defiance

All of the relevant stealth and tracking goodies, including Darkstalker, excellent skill ranks, and any stealth related spells as needed.
Poison Use, plus Chameleon spells for minor creation to make poisons on demand.
Murderous Intent automatically confirms any crits versus favored enemies. Arcane Hunter gives a huge range of favored enemies (anyone who can cast spells or SLAs), and the Chameleon floating bonus feat can pick up additional enemies on demand via Extra Favored Enemy.
Kaorti resin arrows allow for ×6 crits, for hunter's mercy/Murderous Intent fun.
Hunter's eye brings the sneak attack up to +8d6 for 4 points of Charisma damage (which is multiplied on a crit, unlike the variable sneak attack damage would be). That's a solid 24 points of Charisma damage on every successful crit. Sniper's shot lets you do this from any range.

So, assuming a +2 collision energy bow with GMW cast on it, and a +4 strength bonus, we can look at something like...

1d8 +2 FE +20 craven +1 Blood War Conscript +5 enhancement +5 collision +4 strength +17 power shot +5 knowledge devotion = 1d8+59 base damage. So with a single arrow, we're looking at a MINIMUM of 360 points of damage, plus poison and 24 points of Charisma damage. That's just from the first shot that successfully hits - if this fails to KO, the remaining shots should.

Factotum Poison Archer

Human, Factotum 8/Warblade 3/Fighter 2/Heir of Siberys 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Mindbender 1

PROGRESSION:
1. Factotum1- Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation), Master of Poisons
2. Factotum2-
3. Factotum3- Heroic Spirit
4. Factotum4-
5. Factotum5-
6. Mindbender1- Mindsight
7. Fighter1- Point Blank Shot
8. Fighter2- Rapid Shot
9. Warblade1- Manyshot
10. Factotum6-
11. Factotum7-
12. Factotum8- Greater Manyshot
13. Heir of Siberys1- Action Surge
14. Heir of Siberys2- Mark of Stars
15. Heir of Siberys3- Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders), Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak)
16. Warblade2-
17. Warblade3-
18. Uncanny Trickster1- Darkstalker
19. Uncanny Trickster2-
20. Uncanny Trickster3- Blind-Fight

(Uncanny Trickster progresses Warblade. Siberys mark is the Mark of Sentinel.)

MANEUVERS:
1- Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind
2- Claw at the Moon
3- Mind over Body
5- Dancing Mongoose
6- Moment of Alacrity
7- Quicksilver Motion

STANCES:
Blood in the Water, Leaping Dragon Stance

ALTERNATIVES:

This build assumes multiclassing penalties are in effect. If they aren't, drop uncanny trickster for more warblade, giving you Factotum 8/Warblade 6/Fighter 2/Mindbender 1/Heir of Siberys 3.
If flaws are allowed, drop fighter and uncanny trickster, and instead run Factotum 8/Warblade 8/Mindbender 1/Heir of Siberys 3. End result is +16 BAB, 8th-level maneuvers and all relevant tricks.
If fractional BAB is used, feat rogue is a viable alternative in place of fighter.
If Dragon material is allowed, two levels of Invisible Fist Martial Monk can go in over fighter.

The basic plan is as follows:

TRACK your enemies via Mindsight;
PHASE IN ethereally via Phase Cloak;
ATTACK with multiple poisoned arrows via Greater Manyshot, gaining extra standard actions with Action Surge and Cunning Surge;
PHASE OUT as a swift action via Quicksilver Motion or Sudden Leap.

In addition, this guy has excellent skills, has Mind Blank up 24/7 via his Siberys mark, is never surprised or flat-footed, has great stealth (Mind Blank, ethereal movement, spells, skills and Darkstalker), and has all of the goodies you'd expect from an 8th-level Factotum.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 01:20 PM

BUILDS IN PROGRESS
Uurkrau Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15319194&postcount=57) - A Dex-focused illumian Ultimate Magus that uses the Uurkrau sigils to have Dexterity drive the spells on both casting classes.

OTHER ARCHERS
Bird of Prey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286818), by Emperor Tippy - A druid-based soulbow sniper that strikes unerringly from a thousand miles away.
The JPAM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15266526&postcount=11), by Vaz - A sha'ir/incantatrix/jade phoenix mage focused on throwing.
Zen Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15270017&postcount=23), by thethird - A cleric-based Zen Archer using Prestige Ranger to get into Stalker of Kharash.
Psionic/Roguish Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15271986&postcount=32), by Draz74 - A tiefling rogue/psychic warrior/shadowmind taking advantage of CPsi's archery powers and arrow demon metamorphosis.
Boomerang Daze Thrower (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15271986&postcount=32), by Draz74 - A half-giant warblade/psychic warrior/bloodstorm blade that runs off of Boomerang Daze
Throw & Snatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15493655&postcount=76), by thethird - A thrower that disarms from afar, steals the weapon, and throws it back at the enemy, while getting iajutsu damage all the while.

TO-DO:

Finish formatting on all builds so that they are consistent
Add in maneuvers on Zen Archer build
Add in spells on Arrow of the White Raven
Add general "Items" section
Finish and add in Ultimate Magus Dex-focused arcane-only persistifying archer.
Finish and add in Psycarnum archer.
Add links to existing archery handbooks.

So, I'm interested in where I should go with this. I wanted to have this up as a build compendium that I can reference back to, both for my own personal use and also so that I can point to it when I recommend archer builds to other people.

I didn't want to turn this into a handbook, because we already HAVE archer handbooks, some of which are quite good. I'd be interested in feedback on tightening up the existing builds, and I'd be happy to offer advice on anyone else's range-focused build. (As a note, though, I do tend to build archers different than other people - I really don't recommend building archers without magic or something similar, such as meldshaping or initiating.)

Finally, I'm still working on the two more builds that I'd like to include. One is a Dex-centric Uurkrau illumian, basically an attempt to build an arcane-only Persist archer. The other is a Psychic Warrior with a splash of incarnum and Psycarnum Infusion to max out damage-focused soulmelds. I'd love some more ideas, though - both on these, and more directions to go in for archers.

Thanks, all!

Flickerdart

2013-05-19, 01:26 PM

Can you jam a level of Shiba Protector into the Zen Archer build? An extra +WIS to attack and damage is nice to have.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 01:39 PM

Can you jam a level of Shiba Protector into the Zen Archer build? An extra +WIS to attack and damage is nice to have.

Hmm... That's not a bad idea, although it'll be tough. I could knock off the level of Warblade, which means I wouldn't get access to WRT, but adding Wisdom yet again to both attack and damage, especially once I start bringing Owl's Insight into play, is pretty juicy.

More difficult would be the feats. Three otherwise useless feats is a pretty high cost for that, and I would hate to lose Travel Devotion, Extra Turning and Woodland Archer. I guess if I cheesed in Iron Will via Otyugh Hole, I could drop two out of the three, although I'm not sure which ones should go. (Extra Turning could of course be dropped in any game that allows Nightstick stacking, but I have yet to play in a game that does...)

Flickerdart

2013-05-19, 01:47 PM

You can get Alertness for 10k (Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone), so you only really need to drop one feat on Combat Expertise. Woodland Archer seems like the logical choice, since the +Wisdom to attack greatly outweighs the +4 on attacks it might give you, and the other benefits are relatively marginal.

Vaz

2013-05-19, 03:22 PM

For a Thrower build, it's a bit cheesy;

Insectile (+2LA) X=16/Mindbender 1/Cancer Mage 1 with Brutal Throw and Mindsight.

Arbitrary Strength, means that you're hitting 19/20 and insta-gibbing anything without immunity to no-save, no SR Force Damage (from Gloves of Endless Javelins) with 6 Thrown Shots a turn.

If you can find some way to regain your thrown weapons instantly (Returning Crystals; a couple of quivers etc), an Insectile character with the Multi-weapon fighting chain and Shadowblade (using Aptitude enchantment to allow Shadowblade to trigger with Javelins). It also can make Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip incredibly fun should they ever get too close.

Arcane Strike explicitly channels into melee weapons; melee weapons can still be thrown however, which might not be allowed in all games, though, due to RAI and liberal wording.

Sha'ir 6/Incantatrix 3/Sacred/Exorcist/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 with Martial Study (Twice) and Martial Stance (Once). Take Arcane Disciple (Competition) for Divine Power. Extend for Persistent Spell prerequisites, Persist as the free spell. This gets you a huge number of Spell slots. JPA sacrifices spell levels for more Initiator ability, more melee ability.

Divine Power (requires Wis 14), which you then Persist for Day-long BAB20. You can now use the Arcane Strike to gain the ability to sacrifice a number of spells as a free action; which we'll say is 20. This grants you +20 to hit, and +20d4 damage. Which at 20th level, as a Wizard/Sorcerer 18 is not particularly brilliant, admittedly due to the number of save-or-sucks, but as you're a prepared caster, with another primary caster elsewhere within the party, you can prepare a load more utility spells.

Throw on other persist cheese; Wraithstrike etc, but with a touch attack with in excess of +45ish to hit, you're hitting whatever you want, doing 80 damage a shot. Typical optimization outside of that.

Travel Devotion, and Death Devotion, etc. If Nightstick stacking is allowed, then you could arguably allow DMM Persist in place of Incantatrix. Death Devotion is less useful on a thrower; but Travel Devotion for Full Attacking etc is hella useful. Death Devotion is better on an Archer build.

Hope some of that's useful. ;).

123456789blaaa

2013-05-19, 04:12 PM

No Vald Lokkur? :smalleek: That build of yours was amazing.

I really like the Arcane Sniper (though he needs a better name :smalltongue:) but it looks a bit diptastic (also, he doesn't appear to have a Summon Monster spell as a spell known before taking the nar demonbinder level. How is he qualifying?). As a variant, taking flaws would allow the fighter levels to be left out at least (moar skills). Most of the others seem pretty necessary :smallfrown:.

Good builds here all around. Nice job Piggy :smallbiggrin:.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 04:54 PM

*snip*

Hmm. Yeah, arbitrary Strength-boosting shenanigans unfortunately don't excite me much, any more than Tainted Sorcerers with arbitrarily high taint scores. It's clever from a TO perspective, but once you get to that point, it seems silly to be mucking around bothering with throwing weapons and the like.

That being said, I might not mind including a thrower build. The main problem is coming up with something more interesting than a straight Bloodstorm Blade, which already does a pretty excellent job at it. I'll give it some thought, and post my ideas in a bit.

The Sha'ir/Incantatrix build is a little more interesting. I've been hoping to work in an arcane persister here - the build I'm currently working on goes that route from another angle, using Ultimate Magus, but the JPM is pretty nice too.

Death Devotion requires one melee weapon, so bows aren't really an option. Yes, elvencraft means that your bow is a melee weapon as well, but even at tables where persistent spells are being thrown around like crazy, I still have trouble imagining a DM who rules that a melee-only effect put onto an elvencraft bow will transfer to the arrows you fire.

Still some good thoughts here, though. I think I might toy around with your JPM idea a bit and see where it takes me.

No Vald Lokkur? :smalleek: That build of yours was amazing.

I really like the Arcane Sniper (though he needs a better name :smalltongue:) but it looks a bit diptastic (also, he doesn't appear to have a Summon Monster spell as a spell known before taking the nar demonbinder level. How is he qualifying?). As a variant, taking flaws would allow the fighter levels to be left out at least (moar skills). Most of the others seem pretty necessary :smallfrown:.

Good builds here all around. Nice job Piggy :smallbiggrin:.

Thanks! A Divine Crusader/Arcane Archer might be nice to include, although there's some things I would change if I weren't making the build for an Iron Chef competition. (Actually, there are things I'd change even if I was - it was my first IC, after all, and I think I could make it better after competing for a year and a half.)

Re: the Arcane Sniper - crud, you're right. I was so focused on meeting the level 4 spells requirement of demonbinder that I completely forgot about the Summon Monster requirement.

That being said, there's an easy fix that also solves your issue with the fighter levels, and ends up netting the build an extra feat:

1. Remove the Spellthief and Fighter levels. Change Master Spellthief to Practiced Spellcaster.

2. Replace with a level of Martial Wizard and two levels of Feat Rogue. (Alternatively, keep Spellthief/Master Spellthief, and replace Fighter with one level of Feat Rogue and one level of Wizard, but that drops you to only +10 BAB on a build with no Divine Power... even with the plan of primarily using Imbue Arrow and touch attacks, I kind of shudder at the idea of dropping below +11.)

So the final build stub would be:

Gray Elf, Feat Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Martial Wizard 1/Assassin 1/Earth Dreamer 5/Arcane Archer 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Unseen Seer 6

I'll edit that all in and maybe do a build table of contents, too. And Vaz, when I come up with something interesting on the thrower end, I'll toss that up here as well.

PS- I really was not being particularly original when coming up with names - in my archer google doc, they're all called things like "Chameleon #4 (zen arch, no psywar)" and so on. If anyone has better ideas for names, please don't be shy. :smalltongue:

123456789blaaa

2013-05-19, 06:49 PM

<snip>
Death Devotion requires one melee weapon, so bows aren't really an option. Yes, elvencraft means that your bow is a melee weapon as well, but even at tables where persistent spells are being thrown around like crazy, I still have trouble imagining a DM who rules that a melee-only effect put onto an elvencraft bow will transfer to the arrows you fire.

Still some good thoughts here, though. I think I might toy around with your JPM idea a bit and see where it takes me.

I suppose it depends if making a successful attack with the bow includes using the bow to fire arrows. I'm not a RAW expert but it seems to be that it could go either way, and it isn't overpowered so what's the problem?

Thanks! A Divine Crusader/Arcane Archer might be nice to include, although there's some things I would change if I weren't making the build for an Iron Chef competition. (Actually, there are things I'd change even if I was - it was my first IC, after all, and I think I could make it better after competing for a year and a half.)

Oh? Which things? The only thing I can think of that would improve the build is exchanging the 3 levels of Abjurant Champion for 3 levels of Hexblade (much more elegant that way).

Re: the Arcane Sniper - crud, you're right. I was so focused on meeting the level 4 spells requirement of demonbinder that I completely forgot about the Summon Monster requirement.

I did a bit of research on this when looking for alternative ways to enter the Fiendbinder PRC. Off the top of my head, the feat Fiendish Legacy gives you teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), summon monster V (fiendish creatures only), and unholy blight as SLA's once per day (you can take Magic in the Blood to increase that to 3/day). It requires the crappy Fiendish Heritage feat though.

There are also a bunch of other ways. I'll look them up when I have a bit more time.

That being said, there's an easy fix that also solves your issue with the fighter levels, and ends up netting the build an extra feat:

1. Remove the Spellthief and Fighter levels. Change Master Spellthief to Practiced Spellcaster.

2. Replace with a level of Martial Wizard and two levels of Feat Rogue. (Alternatively, keep Spellthief/Master Spellthief, and replace Fighter with one level of Feat Rogue and one level of Wizard, but that drops you to only +10 BAB on a build with no Divine Power... even with the plan of primarily using Imbue Arrow and touch attacks, I kind of shudder at the idea of dropping below +11.)

So the final build stub would be:

Gray Elf, Feat Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Martial Wizard 1/Assassin 1/Earth Dreamer 5/Arcane Archer 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Unseen Seer 6

I'll edit that all in and maybe do a build table of contents, too. And Vaz, when I come up with something interesting on the thrower end, I'll toss that up here as well.

Ah yes, Feat Rogue. Forgot about that ACF. Nice.

I assume you replaced the spelltheif level with the Martial Wizard level for the Summon Monster Prequisite? As I said above in this post, you don't have to do that. Giving up that tasty stackable CL is harsh (and I've always felt that dipping a tier 1 class like wizard on a lower tier build is a little inelegant).

PS- I really was not being particularly original when coming up with names - in my archer google doc, they're all called things like "Chameleon #4 (zen arch, no psywar)" and so on. If anyone has better ideas for names, please don't be shy. :smalltongue:

Instead of the Sniper assassin, call him...the TISP (Totally Interactive Slim Particles) assassin. It references WISP's (Weakly Interactive Slim Particles), theorized light particles that can shine through walls. I have no idea if they're valid or real but who cares? They fit well with the shtick of the build.

TISP doesn't really have a good ring to it though...I picked "totally" because the arrows the build can shoot can go through peoples bodies and kill them. A different word that can give the same "feel" would be nice.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 07:12 PM

I suppose it depends if making a successful attack with the bow includes using the bow to fire arrows. I'm not a RAW expert but it seems to be that it could go either way, and it isn't overpowered so what's the problem?

Personal preference, I guess. It's not overpowered and I could see a pretty decent argument for it technically working, but it has always felt pedantic to me.

Oh? Which things? The only thing I can think of that would improve the build is exchanging the 3 levels of Abjurant Champion for 3 levels of Hexblade (much more elegant that way).

Yeah, if I were to redo it for IC, I would do exactly that.

If I were to do it for a game rather than an Iron Chef competition, though, I'd probably add in some warblade for Weapon Aptitude and a few nice maneuvers, use a greatbow instead of a shortbow (switching the weapon focus (shortbow) to greatbow accordingly), which would actually give me better range than Ranged Weapon Mastery + shortbow, and take only a level or so of Divine Crusader to progress the rest with another decent PrC.

I did a bit of research on this when looking for alternative ways to enter the Fiendbinder PRC. Off the top of my head, the feat Fiendish Legacy gives you teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), summon monster V (fiendish creatures only), and unholy blight as SLA's once per day (you can take Magic in the Blood to increase that to 3/day). It requires the crappy Fiendish Heritage feat though.

There are also a bunch of other ways. I'll look them up when I have a bit more time.

Ah yes, Feat Rogue. Forgot about that ACF. Nice.

I assume you replaced the spelltheif level with the Martial Wizard level for the Summon Monster Prequisite? As I said above in this post, you don't have to do that. Giving up that tasty stackable CL is harsh (and I've always felt that dipping a tier 1 class like wizard on a lower tier build is a little inelegant).

Yeah, Wizard was brought in to meet SM requirements. Fiendish Legacy is a nice alternative that I hadn't really thought about.

If I switched back to Spellthief, I could theoretically pick up Iron Will via Otyugh Hole (although I always consider feats from magical locations about the same as I do flaws - great if your DM allows them, but better used for "extra" feats in case they aren't kosher). If I did that and dropped Precise Shot, I could fit the feats in.

On the other hand, switching to the Martial Wizard version does hurt my CL a bit (although not as much as it could - I didn't really cheese out Master Spellthief this build), but also means I can nab Abrupt Jaunt, and even pick up a spare feat for Darkstalker.

Not really sure - might be worth having two variants, one with Spellthief and one with Wizard.

Instead of the Sniper assassin, call him...the TISP (Totally Interactive Slim Particles) assassin. It references WISP's (Weakly Interactive Slim Particles), theorized light particles that can shine through walls. I have no idea if they're valid or real but who cares? They fit well with the theme of the build.

TISP doesn't really have a good ring to it though...I picked "totally" because the arrows the build can shoot can go through peoples bodies and kill them. A different word that can give the same "feel" would be nice.

The Quantum Tunneler?

Vaz

2013-05-19, 07:20 PM

Okay, put some more work into the build; For names? Is the JPAM too obvious?

Aasimar Racial Class; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a/Human

Str; 17 (All increases go here)
Dex; 8
Con; 10
Int; 10
Wis; 13+2 (Required for Divine Power)
Cha; 16+2 (Requires items for 9ths)

Flaws; Travel Devotion (or through Human), Iron Will (or through Otyugh Hole)

Additional Feat options if going for Human+Otyugh hole); Bind Vestige (Charisma based, become Diplomancer), Death Devotion (swing it in melee).

1- Sha'ir 1; Extend
2- Sha'ir 2;
3- Sha'ir 3; Martial Study (Clinging Shadow Strike)
4- Sha'ir 4;
5- Sha'ir 5;
6- Sha'ir 6; Martial Study (Any)
7- Incantatrix 1; Persist
8- Incantatrix 2;
9- Incantatrix 3; Martial Stance (Child of Shadow)
10- Sacred Exorcist 1
11- JPA 1
12- JPA 2; Brutal Throw
13- JPA 3
14- JPA 4
15- JPA 5; Arcane Strike
16- JPA 6;
17- JPA 7;
18- JPA 8; Arcane Disciple (Competition)
19- JPA 9;
20- JPA 10;

If you want to go for a more melee build, swap Brutal Throw with Shadow Blade, and use an Aptitude Weapon. As it stands, this is a 48 Hour long buffer, with access to Persistable Sor/Wiz spells; Metabreath spells being very, very fun. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12944.

If thrower; any weapon works, but Endless Javelins gives you a free action reload. DMM works best (obviously) with Nightsticks; but you're a Cha based Caster. Of awesome note is a scroll of the Wu Jen Spell "Transcend Mortality"; use your Incantatrix Metamagic effect for; DR 30/epic, SR39 (without augmentation), all energy resist (50), Immunity to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, and death effects, +10 enhancement to saves, then use JPA capstone to dismiss before the end and reform.

Spells; Fist of Stone, Guided Shot, Wraithstrike, See Invisibility, Elation, Blink, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Mirror Image, Draconic Polymorph etc, see handbook above all help. Incantatrix gets ability to Persist scrolled effects, so use that on Divine Spells; http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7260/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2018.0

123456789blaaa

2013-05-19, 08:12 PM

Personal preference, I guess. It's not overpowered and I could see a pretty decent argument for it technically working, but it has always felt pedantic to me.

Yeah, if I were to redo it for IC, I would do exactly that.

If I were to do it for a game rather than an Iron Chef competition, though, I'd probably add in some warblade for Weapon Aptitude and a few nice maneuvers, use a greatbow instead of a shortbow (switching the weapon focus (shortbow) to greatbow accordingly), which would actually give me better range than Ranged Weapon Mastery + shortbow, and take only a level or so of Divine Crusader to progress the rest with another decent PrC.

Fair enough. Personally I'm enjoy pedanticness if it results in something cool.

And would you do anything about the damage problem the build has? When using the pure Hexblade/AA/DC combo I feel the elegance and simplicity of the build overcomes the lower power. However if you're going to be adding in dips and such-oops. Forgive me, I think of all builds in terms of IC contests :smallredface:.

Yeah, Wizard was brought in to meet SM requirements. Fiendish Legacy is a nice alternative that I hadn't really thought about.

If I switched back to Spellthief, I could theoretically pick up Iron Will via Otyugh Hole (although I always consider feats from magical locations about the same as I do flaws - great if your DM allows them, but better used for "extra" feats in case they aren't kosher). If I did that and dropped Precise Shot, I could fit the feats in.

On the other hand, switching to the Martial Wizard version does hurt my CL a bit (although not as much as it could - I didn't really cheese out Master Spellthief this build), but also means I can nab Abrupt Jaunt, and even pick up a spare feat for Darkstalker.

Not really sure - might be worth having two variants, one with Spellthief and one with Wizard.

Two variants sounds good. Although you can get PBS and Weapon Focus from the Domain Drought item [Elf Domain (SpC) and War Domain (DMGII) respectively. 3,300 gp cost. (MIC)]. It's single use so you don't have to worry about it getting destroyed.

You can also get the Precise weapon special ability: the wielder is treated as having Precise Shot feat at a +1 bonus cost to the weapon (I personally dislike relying on losable items for feats though).

If you're using the Spelltheif variant you also free up one or two feats (later on in the build though).

The Quantum Tunneler?

Sounds good. Personally I prefer mine more :smalltongue:. Go with what feels right.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-05-19, 08:30 PM

A_S

2013-05-19, 08:50 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-05-19, 08:54 PM

Swift Hunter is great for reliably delivering Skirmish damage, but I wouldn't put it on par with 6th level casting from multiple lists in terms of power, I don't think...I feel like if nothing else, the Chameleon builds up there are more powerful than a Swift Hunter build just on the strength of being Chameleons.

Not really. Take another look at the limitations on Chameleon and you'll discover the reason it is only used as a two-level dip for the floating feat.

Flickerdart

2013-05-19, 09:07 PM

If you're going Hexblade, don't forget the Hexbands from the MIC for a nice boost to damage.

Vaz

2013-05-19, 09:09 PM

An 18th level Caster, meanwhile is a walk in the park?

Cheating, I know, to roll out a Full Caster (as arguably, the Caster is better on its own without optimizing the Bow side), but hey-ho.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-19, 09:13 PM

Honestly, Swift hunter is more powerful than any of those, with the sole exception of the Bard build, and has the knowledge skills and out-of-combat utility to boot (trapfinding from scout).

Furthermore, it's surprisingly difficult to be immune to the precision-based damage a Swift Hunter can deal. He isn't reliant on conditions like 'denied dex bonus to AC' or 'flanked', all he needs to do is move around, which is easily accomplished. Swift Hunter also bypasses immunities. As far as Fortification or Concealment... there's an answer to that as well. Concealment is negated with Improved Precise Shot which you pick up automatically from Ranger. For everything else, Pierce Magical Concealment solves the problem.

It's a clean and elegant build which is, quite bluntly, the best archer build to date I've seen. Unless you want to count HFW Cheese in the mix.

I'm really not sure I agree. Don't get me wrong, the Swift Hunter is a fine build. I didn't address it because I think the Chaingun Porcupine and the Swift Hunter handbook have plumbed its depths fairly well, and I don't have anything new to add to it.

But I would argue that basically any of these builds can stand up to the best Swift Hunter build and then some. The Chameleon builds all have DMM Persist, 4-5 pools of turning (cleric plus Mimic Class Feature x3), and just about every persistable spell you could want off the divine side - and they still have their arcane side to cast during the day, after spending a good chunk of their divine spells on buffs.

For example, here's the sample persist list I have for the Chameleon/Arcane Archer build:

Divine Power
Bite of the Wererat
Swift Haste
Greater Blink
Find the Gap
Inspired Aim
Recitation
Hunter's Eye
Arrow Mind
Cloud of Knives
Master Air
Divine Favor

That could probably be improved, it's just a sample list I pulled up. The arcane side can then be dedicated to utility spells and area spells to channel via Arcane Archer for single shots or debuffs, as well as swift action spells like Sniper's Shot and Arrowsplit.

The bard build can almost certainly outdamage the Swift Hunter thanks to Words of Creation/DFI, although admittedly fire resistance is an issue. But it's still a level 20 bard with casting on top of that, and boosts its party as well. The bardblade might have lower damage overall, although Blood in the Water, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still and all certainly do a good job of bridging the gap. But it also aids its party with pretty decent DFI/Inspire, and gets the various counters/boosts and utility stances like Hunter's Sense and Hearing the Air.

The totemist theoretically keeps up thanks to eight shots a round + Assassin's Stance + Craven. But the damage definitely drops below the Swift Hunter against precision immune enemies. Still, the totemist has the advantage of being able to rebind its totem chakra and switch over to melee or utility when necessary.

The arcane sniper/TISP build definitely deals far less damage than a Swift Hunter, no argument there. That's not it's goal, though. It was just an attempt to make a build that can fire through walls, and seeing where I could take that. It's definitely the most situational of the builds here, but I mostly put that one together for the cool factor.

Again, none of this is to knock the Swift Hunter - I agree, it's an excellent archery option. But I'd like to think almost any of these builds do just as well in combat, and have a whole host of other options as well.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 06:10 AM

Okay, put some more work into the build; For names? Is the JPAM too obvious?

Not too shabby, although it does seem more like a sha'ir build that just happens to be able to throw fairly well.

My own attempts have been circling around an aeshkrau illumian Warblade/Wu Jen with giant size and two levels in Bloodstorm Blade. I still have yet to come up with something I really like, though.

Vaz

2013-05-20, 06:46 AM

That was my first thought as well, but I struggled to come up with a reason for not optimizing the Wu Jen more using similar tricks as the Sha'ir build (DMM'ing and Incantatrix); and because the Sor/Wiz combined lists are more powerful than the limited access Wu Jen uniques (except the obvious ones; Transcend Mortality, BoB, Giant Size, Minute Form, Arboreal Transformation, Scarf etc), despite the slower progression, and the wording on Arcane Strike allowing "melee weapons" (which can then be thrown) to be so enhanced, in combination with a UMD check high enough to get Wu Jen scrolls (which can then be Persist+Extended for 48 Hour duration).

That's the problem with using a Spell-slot build. Especially as a Giant Size spell really limits dungeoneering potential. Unless of course you use the Shrink Collar (A+EG, pg80, 10K); Become small, do not change stats.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 07:26 AM

Arcane Strike was my main reason for thinking aeshkrau illumian - bonus spells off Strength (with its huge +32 bonus) to feed into AS alongside full PA and thunderous throw.

Vaz

2013-05-20, 10:29 AM

Just realised, completely forgot about Stormguard Warrior. Yup. I agree, go for it!

UMD'ing something to gain Bite of the Werebear. Draconic Polymorph into high strength form (Pit Fiend is a large form with 37 (?) strength. While there is stronger (Dusk Giant?), I think they're also huge or larger, which unless you have something like the Collar mentioned above, makes adventuring difficult in the dungeons.

thethird

2013-05-20, 10:40 AM

How would you feel about another zen archer?

(Cloistered) Cleric 3 / Church inquisitor 4 (4th level not really useful) / Prestige ranger 2 / Stalker of Kharash 4 / Seeker of the misty island 7

It can pierce illusions
It needs the animal domain, and elf domain would be nice too.
It gets the knowledge domain, the inquisition domain (any of either can be traded for knowledge devotion), the travel domain (which can be traded for travel devotion), and the magic domain.
If you use urban companion instead of animal companion (probably a good idea anyway) it would gain alertness, and thus reduce the feat tax.
Favored enemy evil, with some favored enemy optimization is good.
It also has all ranger spells over a cleric basis so he gets them much faster.

Alternatively I really like Archivist Archers but Archivists can do whatever they feel like.

Vaz

2013-05-20, 10:57 AM

If 4th level's not useful, then something like Contemplative can get you additional domains for funzies.

Edit; with regards to Bloodstorm Blade; can you use it alongside Pounce? When you charge, do you need to attack the person you charge, or can you pounce and throw your weapons against another target, and combine with Leap Attack Shock Troopers?

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 11:10 AM

I'll comment on the build and all when I'm not on a smartphone, but your mention of archivist archers did remind me of a character I once considered playing, an archivist that used lesser celerity or hustle to stun enemies with dread secret, then followed it up with a full attack, with sneak from persistent hunter's eye.

Never turned it into an actual build, rather than just a neat idea, but maybe one day I'll stat it out.

A_S

2013-05-20, 11:33 AM

Not really. Take another look at the limitations on Chameleon and you'll discover the reason it is only used as a two-level dip for the floating feat.

Okay, so I went back and reread Chameleon, and I'm really not sure what limitations you're talking about. The fact that you can't use the spellcasting to qualify for stuff? That just means no PrC's, and locks you out of a couple (mostly bad) metamagic options. It's still spells up to level 6 off of any list you want. That's, like, really good, right? Not as good as 9th level spellcasting, but a lot better than 5d6 bonus damage.

And, I always thought people use all 10 levels of Chameleon all the time. Three of these builds do; it's how everybody always tells people to finish a Factotum 8; and it's a great way of making a character who's good at crafting without making everything about them focused on it like an Artificer is.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 12:36 PM

Okay, so I went back and reread Chameleon, and I'm really not sure what limitations you're talking about. The fact that you can't use the spellcasting to qualify for stuff? That just means no PrC's, and locks you out of a couple (mostly bad) metamagic options. It's still spells up to level 6 off of any list you want. That's, like, really good, right? Not as good as 9th level spellcasting, but a lot better than 5d6 bonus damage.

And, I always thought people use all 10 levels of Chameleon all the time. Three of these builds do; it's how everybody always tells people to finish a Factotum 8; and it's a great way of making a character who's good at crafting without making everything about them focused on it like an Artificer is.

It's also worth noting that, assuming you've got the stats for it, you can end up with essentially two classes worth of 6th-level casting simultaneously, and that Mimic Class Feature means three pools of turning to spend on domain feats, DMM and the like in addition to whatever other places you've picked it up.

Chameleon is one of my favorite classes in general, and I especially like it for an archer - it gets all of the cool ranger-only archery spells without the suckage of ranger casting, and also gets the other spells necessary to become a good archer (such as Divine Power or Bite of the XXX).

Vaz

2013-05-20, 01:03 PM

thethird

2013-05-20, 01:46 PM

If 4th level's not useful, then something like Contemplative can get you additional domains for funzies.

Derpity derp It could qualify for seeker of the misty isle down there, so it is an option

Cloistered Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 3 / Seeker of the misty Isle 1 / Prestige ranger 2 / Stalker of Kahrash 4 / Seeker of the misty isle +6 / Stalker of Kahrash +1

I'll comment on the build and all when I'm not on a smartphone, but your mention of archivist archers did remind me of a character I once considered playing, an archivist that used lesser celerity or hustle to stun enemies with dread secret, then followed it up with a full attack, with sneak from persistent hunter's eye.

Never turned it into an actual build, rather than just a neat idea, but maybe one day I'll stat it out.

I enjoyed a lot playing an Illumian Uurkrau archivist with knowledge devotion, collector of stories and other knowledge focused stuff. I used it as an archer, but it could be anything it wanted really... Archivists are truly versatile and have good class features. If you also are a persistomancer then more power to you.

Deox

2013-05-20, 02:07 PM

Great thread idea.

I'm surprised Stormlord wasn't mentioned, however.
If I find the recent build, I'll toss it up.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 03:27 PM

Thinking on how to improve/modify some of the other builds, what about a modification of the BardBlade, using Bard 3/Warblade8/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7, levels interspersed to get the greatest benefit (IL of 13, for 6th(?) level maneuvres.

While you take a hit on the Maneuvre front (notably, no Diamond Mind for Time Stands Still), you do get to use Divine Impetus and Recovery to get that ability.

Notably; only works on the Turn Undead stacking from Nightsticks; otherwise, you don't get enough feats between needing Dragonfire Inspiration, Extra Turning, Extra Music, (and potentially Draconic Heritage (Howling) for Sonic).

Assuming Nightstick stacking;

Silverbrow Human
1- Point Blank Shot, Precise ShotDraconic Heritage; Precise Shot picked up from Precise Weapon or Flaw
3- Rapid Shot
6- Song of the Heart
9- Song of the White Raven
12- Dragonfire Inspiration (Sonic)
15- Woodland Archer
18- Extra Music

Or does WRT remove the need for RKV?

It might, honestly.

Couple of issues: Song of the White Raven only stacks bard or crusader levels, so that would have the music of a 12th level bard. Draconic Heritage requires sorcerer or the Dragontouched feat.

While Divine Impetus is awesome, this build doesn't seem to get as much out of it as most - I'm really not sure it's worth losing Time Stands Still and better maneuver and IC progression for.

I do think Bard 3/Crusader 1/Warblade 16 is a decent alternative, though.

Draz74

2013-05-20, 04:22 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-05-20, 04:31 PM

thethird

2013-05-20, 04:36 PM

You know I've just realized this but...I don't think I've ever seen a psionic archer build (other than soulknife+soulbow of course). Weird :smallconfused:.

Elf soulborn 7 / Psywar 13 works nicely. You can also use the incarnum recharge trick for unilimited pp.

It has a really long range too.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-20, 04:54 PM

You know I've just realized this but...I don't think I've ever seen a psionic archer build before now (other than soulknife+soulbow of course). Weird :smallconfused:.

Really? I feel like I've seen it a fair bit. The most common one I see is a Zen Archer PsyWar that uses dissolving weapon on a batch of arrows. Looks cool on paper, except that dissolving weapon lacks the verbiage about being able to apply it to a batch of fifty projectiles.

One of the builds that I haven't finished yet is Psycarnum Archer build that splashes incarnum for Incarnate Avatar and Sighting Gloves, and maxes them out via Psycarnum Infusion.

EDIT: And just noticed thethird's post. I'd imagine what I'm working on is pretty similar to the Soulborn/PsyWar that thethird just mentioned. I'd be interested in seeing your thoughts on the topic.

thethird

2013-05-20, 05:08 PM

Elf soulborn substitution levels are your friends.

Smite Opposition (Su): An elf soulborn’s link to the master archers of her race allows her to charge her bow attacks with the power of incarnum. She can deliver smite attacks just as a normal soulborn. However, she can deliver this smite attack with either an arrow fi red from a bow or with a melee attack (unlike the normal smite opposition attack, which can only be delivered with a melee attack). The foe to be smited must be within 30 feet of her to deliver the smite attack by an arrow.

Vigilance of the Ancestors (Ex): As a side effect of channeling incarnum, an elf soulborn benefi ts from the inherent vigilance of her people. The range of her low-light vision improves to triple normal human sight. Whenever a soulmeld occupies an elf soulborn’s brow chakra, she gains improved visual acuity. She gains an insight bonus on Search and Spot checks equal to twice the invested essentia.
If a soulmeld is actually bound to her brow chakra, the range increment of any bow she uses increases by one-half.

I personally also like soulbound weapon acf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) (as it gives quite a lot of customization to the psywar archer)

Basically you can manifest extend range and augment it like a lot, to increase your range to ridiculous levels. Once the enemy is close expend pps or shift essentia to be viable at close range.

Vaz

2013-05-20, 08:29 PM

I'm not entirely sure how a few bonuses (admittedly rare types) and ~+5 Damage on a target that may or may not be of an opposing alignment is all that powerful a couple of times a day, even if you can get unlimited power points.

It doesn't need Soulborn, least of all ELF soulborn (it's one good thing, d10 HD reduced for THAT?) to accomplish ranged power.

Unless I really am missing something.

thethird

2013-05-22, 05:26 AM

You can of course go incarnate it will be stronger (even if it has a lower bab), I originally build it when trying to make a soulborn and an archer to boot. It also has a niche at long range.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-22, 06:05 AM

You can of course go incarnate it will be stronger (even if it has a lower bab), I originally build it when trying to make a soulborn and an archer to boot. It also has a niche at long range.

I'm a sucker for using classes like soulborn, so I can definitely say that I empathize. My favorite soulborn trick is taking Incarnate Avatar so that you get both sets of bonuses - in this case, a CG archer would boost both AC and ranged attacks.

My current Psycarnum Archer build stub actually doesn't use any levels in a meldshaping class - it had levels in incarnate, but I dropped them for just taking Shape Soulmeld, since psychic warrior is feat-heavy enough to pull it off. I have yet to actually finish the build in a manner that I'm satisfied with, though...

Flickerdart

2013-05-23, 12:58 AM

I've got a challenge for ya, Piggy. Can you build this (http://drmcninja.com/archives/news/ive-got-some-stuff-to-plug/)?

Norin

2013-05-23, 01:45 AM

I've got a challenge for ya, Piggy. Can you build this (http://drmcninja.com/archives/news/ive-got-some-stuff-to-plug/)?

Arcane archer with imbue arrow + fireballs? :smalltongue:

TuggyNE

2013-05-23, 02:41 AM

Arcane archer with imbue arrow + fireballs? :smalltongue:

The trick is getting that neat little magic mouth effect. :smallwink:

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-23, 07:29 AM

Dang, that's a tough one. I'd say Arcane Archer, except that there is no friggin' way that Deadpool is an elf.

OK, so we want those lame bludgeoning arrows from Races of the Wild, plus a craft check to make them shaped like Hulk fists. Magic mouth is an easy enough spell to add on, since it's permanent and comes with a built in trigger, so "RAAAH! HULK SMASH!" on impact is pretty easy to do. (And it's a natural spell for the merc with a mouth to be able to cast.)

Now, how to make them all blow up after the fact...

Here are some random thoughts:

Explosive runes and a far away trigger, the classic D&D bomb.
Holly berry bombs, nabbed via Chameleon most likely because come on, you really think Deadpool is a druid?
Something silly involving Combat Trapsmith traps? Combat Trapsmith would be a good fit character-wise, but it would take some DM-approved modifications to allow it to work here.
Alchemy. Alchemist's fire, or maybe alchemist's fire++ via Alchemist Savant.

I would say some sort of Chameleon once again works well. Craft bludgeoning arrows shaped like Hulk fists, tie a magic mouth effect to them just to be a jerk, and load them up with holly berry bombs from fire seed. Then speak the command word for the comical delayed explosion.

Unfortunately Chameleon's divine side is Wis-based, or else I'd say that the Deformity (Madness) feat would be a natural pick....

Draz74

2013-05-23, 10:35 AM

Dang, that's a tough one. I'd say Arcane Archer, except that there is no friggin' way that Deadpool is an elf.

Changeling with Racial Emulation?

But yeah ... I think I'll stick to Legend for attempting to model Deadpool (and most other superheroes). :smallcool:

Flickerdart

2013-05-23, 01:15 PM

I would say some sort of Chameleon once again works well. Craft bludgeoning arrows shaped like Hulk fists, tie a magic mouth effect to them just to be a jerk, and load them up with holly berry bombs from fire seed. Then speak the command word for the comical delayed explosion.
Is there any way to have the magic mouth be what triggers the holly bombs?

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-23, 01:23 PM

Is there any way to have the magic mouth be what triggers the holly bombs?

Sadly, magic mouth is specifically prohibited from using command words, so no. There may be some other "speak when triggered" effect somewhere without that restriction, though.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-26, 10:26 AM

OK, for the Psycarnum Archer, here is the build stub that, thus far, I am happiest with:

Neraph, Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 18

1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent
4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion
5. PsyWar3-
6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity
8. PsyWar6-
9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment
10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation
11. PsyWar9-
12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity
13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation
14. PsyWar12-
15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
17. PsyWar15-
18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar)
19. PsyWar17- Linked Power
20. PsyWar18-

Basically, we've got a couple of things going on here:

Several ways to regain and expend psionic focus each round, to feed Psycarnum Infusion
Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent to break the PsyWar's low PP problem
A soulmeld that grants Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, letting this become a build that totally dumps Dex in favor of Wis (yay for more bonus PP!)
Ability to metamorph into an Arrow Demon for multiple full attacks each round
Bonus damage via Sighting Gloves or bonus attack via Incarnate Avatar as needed (and able to be maxed out when necessary via Psycarnum Infusion again)
Ability to augment powers to their max without expending additional PP with Midnight Augmentation + Psycarnum Infusion, mostly used for long lasting powers

Still working on the power list, but I was curious what folks thought about this one so far.

EDIT: Gah, accidentally posted the wrong version, which left off Linked Power. Editing in the correct one.

EDIT 2: Also, from a formatting perspective, how would you folks like to see some of the other builds posted here? For instance, I'd like to at least include a link to Draz74's builds, etc., so that people reviewing the thread can find them easily. Just links and a small description? Repost them to the top?

Vaz

2013-05-26, 11:58 AM

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-26, 03:51 PM

I like that. Neraph are one of my favourite races. Although it isn't overly powerful (abusing polymorph etc), it is their camoflage that is a fantastic ability. Anyway of generating additional damage off a flat footed character with it (unless it is only thrown and melee, i've forgotten now

Yeah, the Neraphim are a lot of fun. Camouflage only works on a charge or a thrown weapon attack though.

I thought about messing around with Camouflage and Telekinetic Boomerang in the mid-levels until Metamorphosis comes online, and having it throw around a telekinetic annulat Xena-style, but my current list of powers ended up removing TK Boomerang in favor of just sticking with a bow and arrows.

I'm thinking of something along the lines of this for powers:

1- Expansion, Metaphysical Weapon, Extend Range
2- Hustle, Psionic Scent, Damp Power
3- Greater Concealing Amorpha, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier
4- Schism, Metamorphosis, Steadfast Perception, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier
5- Empower Weapon, Oak Body, Change Fate
6- Personal Mind Blank, Dispelling Buffer, Inconstant Location

Possibly might replace Metaphysical Weapon with Call Weaponry, so that I can call a second bow when I take arrow demon form, but I still think Metaphysical Weapon and just carrying two bows is superior.

I might drop Oak Body for Energy Adaptation - Oak Body's immunities are nice, but EA has the immediate action option that's so appealing. Then again, I can always link Oak Body to a swift action power to take away its main drawback.

I figured Scent makes more sense than DHI, even though I love DHI, just because of its synergy with Track. I guess I could drop Damp Power and take both.

Weapon damage seems a little on the low side, but the powers have a lot of utility, so that's nice. And actually running the numbers, with Expansion augmented up to gargantuan, the base damage from the arrows alone is 4d6. With ten attacks per round, or twenty with splitting, that's not bad. Even with just Sighting Gloves, Metaphysical Weapon and Strength bonus off of two splitting bows, we could be looking at 80d6+300 for an average of 580 points of damage. That's not anything too special at level 20 compared to a charger, but it's enough to one-shot most CR 20 enemies if I can bypass DR, so it'll do OK.

123456789blaaa

2013-05-26, 07:30 PM

So, once upon a time I set about designing a whole party of archers, aiming for Tier 3. (Except for a Raptoran Artificer 20; I indulged in adding him to the party so he could explain how the rest of the party could have such an incredible variety of enchanted arrows to meet their every whim.)

Out of the builds I came up with, the one I think might merit inclusion in this thread is

Tiefling Rogue 1 / Psychic Warrior 14 / (Thoughtkiller variant) Shadowmind 4 (add another PsyWar level if LA buyoff is available)

Rogue 1 - Point Blank Shot
PsyWar 1 - Rapid Shot
PsyWar 2 - Zen Archery, Precise Shot
PsyWar 3
PsyWar 4
Shadowmind 1 - Craven
PsyWar 5 - Psycrystal Affinity
PsyWar 6
PsyWar 7 - Linked Power
PsyWar 8 - Psionic Meditation
PsyWar 9
Shadowmind 2 - Woodland Archer
PsyWar 10
Shadowmind 3
Shadowmind 4 - Expanded Knowledge
PsyWar 11 - Metamorphic Transfer
PsyWar 12
PsyWar 13 - Metapower (Linked Hustle)
PsyWar 14 - Overchannel

There are a surprising number of good Powers for archers, especially in CPsi. Extend Range, Perfect Archery, Psychokinetic Weapon, Living Arrows; Offensive Prescience might even become a worthwhile feat on a volley archer build. Chameleon and Concealing Amorpha combo with Woodland Archer (and Sneak Attack + Craven) to enable sniper strategies. Stygian Bane makes up for the Undead problem for sneak attack (although I agree, a good archer build needs to be able to stand without precision damage). And of course at high levels, Outsider Type + Metamorphosis = Arrow Demon.

Round out the power list with Hustle, Adrenaline Boost (for Linking, before you get Metapower), Detect Hostile Intent, Freedom of Movement, Energy Adaptation, Adapt Body, Dispelling Buffer, etc.
<snip>

I just realized this build doesn't seem to have a way of getting Hide/MS as a class skill for Psywars (or Darkstalker). How is it getting high enough checks to make use of Chameleon+Concealing Amorpha +Woodland Archer+Sneak Attack + Craven=sniper strategies?

OK, for the Psycarnum Archer, here is the build stub that, thus far, I am happiest with:

Neraph, Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 18

1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent
4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion
5. PsyWar3-
6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity
8. PsyWar6-
9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment
10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation
11. PsyWar9-
12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity
13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation
14. PsyWar12-
15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
17. PsyWar15-
18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar)
19. PsyWar17- Linked Power
20. PsyWar18-

Basically, we've got a couple of things going on here:

Several ways to regain and expend psionic focus each round, to feed Psycarnum Infusion
Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent to break the PsyWar's low PP problem
A soulmeld that grants Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, letting this become a build that totally dumps Dex in favor of Wis (yay for more bonus PP!)
Ability to metamorph into an Arrow Demon for multiple full attacks each round
Bonus damage via Sighting Gloves or bonus attack via Incarnate Avatar as needed (and able to be maxed out when necessary via Psycarnum Infusion again)
Ability to augment powers to their max without expending additional PP with Midnight Augmentation + Psycarnum Infusion, mostly used for long lasting powers

Still working on the power list, but I was curious what folks thought about this one so far.

EDIT: Gah, accidentally posted the wrong version, which left off Linked Power. Editing in the correct one.

EDIT 2: Also, from a formatting perspective, how would you folks like to see some of the other builds posted here? For instance, I'd like to at least include a link to Draz74's builds, etc., so that people reviewing the thread can find them easily. Just links and a small description? Repost them to the top?

I like it, I really like it :smallcool:. It's multiclassing progression is clean and simple and it's feats combo beautifully. I'm not sure that you can dump Dex though considering it effects ranged attack rolls. Not dumping Dex seems like it would make feat rogue a nice option for replacing ranger (would losing a point of BAB be worth it though?).
EDIT: Completely forgot about Zen Archery :smallredface:.

Also, dumping Dex hurts initiative. It's not major but if I were playing with the build I would probably get a Domain Drought item for Imp initative as a bonus feat.

Neraph is a good race for the build. However it doesn't seem like you're using neraph camouflage, leap, or weapon familiarity much (the +2 natural amour doesn't seem like it would come in handy much either considering the build will be shooting at a distance). It's not much of a problem for the ubilds power but unused racial features always bug me. I'll see if I can find a different race for a variant.

I don't have much else to say about it other than I think it's a build that I would love to play :smallsmile:.

On formatting: Reposting them at the top sounds good to me.

Flickerdart

2013-05-26, 07:36 PM

I like it, I really like it :smallcool:. It's multiclassing progression is clean and simple and it's feats combo beautifully. I'm not sure that you can dump Dex though considering it effects ranged attack rolls. Not dumping Dex seems like it would make feat rogue a nice option for replacing ranger (would losing a point of BAB be worth it though?).

You get Zen Archery at level 3, and before that the d20 is king of everything anyway, and you're probably better off with a melee weapon (since STR isn't very dumpable, what with composite bows).

123456789blaaa

2013-05-26, 07:36 PM

You get Zen Archery at level 3, and before that the d20 is king of everything anyway, and you're probably better off with a melee weapon (since STR isn't very dumpable, what with composite bows).

Oops I completely forgot about that feat :smallredface:. Ignore that part please.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-26, 08:20 PM

Also, dumping Dex hurts initiative. It's not major but if I were playing with the build I would probably get a Domain Drought item for Imp initative as a bonus feat.

Not a bad idea. Because it doesn't rely on SA, lower initiative doesn't hurt it, but archers can always benefit from getting off a full attack early, before the melee starts in earnest.

Neraph is a good race for the build. However it doesn't seem like you're using neraph camouflage, leap, or weapon familiarity much (the +2 natural amour doesn't seem like it would come in handy much either considering the build will be shooting at a distance). It's not much of a problem for the ubilds power but unused racial features always bug me. I'll see if I can find a different race for a variant.

You could easily turn the build into an annulat thrower/charger at the early levels. That'll give you some nice use for both camouflage and the weapon familiarity. In fact, if you take Telekinetic Boomerang as your first third level power, and dump Mental Barrier, it's a darn good thrower. Once you hit level 15 and Metamorphosis comes on the table, the double full-attack option of the arrow demon means that bows are the better choice, but basically all of its feat and power options work equally well with the annulat, and many of them would be fine for a melee character as well. (Being able to easily transition to melee is actually something I always look for in an archer anyhow, since archery is so easy to shut down.)

I don't have much else to say about it other than I think it's a build that I would love to play :smallsmile:.

Glad you liked it! I messed around with a lot of more complicated build stubs for a while, but in the end, this is the version that could actually do everything I'd wanted it to do. As much as I love my dip-tastic Chameleon builds, I do always feel good when a final build comes out this clean. (Must be the Iron Chef contests influencing me :smalltongue:)

123456789blaaa

2013-05-26, 11:25 PM

Not a bad idea. Because it doesn't rely on SA, lower initiative doesn't hurt it, but archers can always benefit from getting off a full attack early, before the melee starts in earnest.<snip>

Reading over the items entry again it seems that it only works for 1 day. Oops. Another option would be the dragonfly medallion from the Arms and Equipment Guide. 29,760 gp and you can also turn into a large dragonfly 1/day.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-27, 11:39 AM

Reading over the items entry again it seems that it only works for 1 day. Oops. Another option would be the dragonfly medallion from the Arms and Equipment Guide. 29,760 gp and you can also turn into a large dragonfly 1/day.

Well, there's also always Eager and Warning armor spikes for a base initiative boost at fairly low cost.

I've gone ahead and added Psycarnum Archer to the main post, and also linked the other builds posted by Vaz, thethird and Draz74. At some point I will add in some of the variants on builds that have been mentioned, such as getting Shiba Protector on the Zen Chameleon.4

EDIT: And, for a bit of a teaser, I'm almost done with my Dex-centric arcane persistofier. It does NOT use Incantatrix or Anima Mage (although I strongly considered the latter). It DOES, however, use Ruathar.

thethird

2013-05-27, 05:56 PM

Cloistered Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 3 / Seeker of the misty Isle 1 / Prestige ranger 2 / Stalker of Kahrash 4 / Seeker of the misty isle +6 / Stalker of Kahrash +1

Okay I decided to go over this build to see what can be done with it, and feats are pretty tight...:

Half elf
Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 3 / Seeker of the misty Isle 1 / Prestige ranger 2 / Stalker of Kahrash 4 / Seeker of the misty Isle +6 / Stalker of Kahrash +1

1.- Cleric 1 : Elf domain (point blank shot); Animal domain (adds knowledge nature as a class skill); Track
2.- Cleric 2
3.- Cleric 3 : Endurance
4.- Church inquisitor 1 : detect evil (at will); inquisiton domain (may be traded for knowledge devotion)
5.- Church inquisitor 2 : Immune to charms
6.- Church inquisitor 3 : Pierce illusion; Rapid shot
7.- Seeker of the misty isle 1 : Travel domain (should be traded for travel devotion)
8.- Prestige ranger 1 : Favored enemy (arcanists), urban companion, voice of the city ; alertness
9.- Prestige ranger 2 : Manyshot, woodland stride ; Favored of the companions
10.- Stalker of Kahrash 1 : Scent of evil
11.- Stalker of Kahrash 2 : Favored enemy evil
12.- Stalker of Kahrash 3 : Nemesis (favored enemy evil)
13.- Stalker of Kahrash 4 : Hide in plain sight
14.- Seeker of the misty Isle 2 : -
15.- Seeker of the misty Isle 3 : Improved favored enemy
16.- Seeker of the misty Isle 4 : Swiftfooted
17.- Seeker of the misty Isle 5 : Corellon's perception; Surefooted
18.- Seeker of the misty Isle 6 : Find the path; Wise to your ways
19.- Seeker of the misty Isle 7 : Magic domain
20.- Stalker of Kahrash 5 : Track evil

With a hunting weapon (MiC), bane (evil) (SRD), an enemy spirit pouch (evil) (MiC), and a girdle of hate (evil) (Dragon compendium) it would gain a +12 to attack rolls against evil creatures, a +16 +6d6 on damage against evil creatures, and +6 to saves against effects of evil creatures.

It also casts spells as a 19th level cleric (with access to all the ranger spells) and has 16 bab.

Piggy Knowles

2013-05-27, 10:26 PM

Very nice. I'll update the link on the first page.

Here is the build stub for the Uurkrau Archer:

Uurkrau Illumian, Martial Wizard 5/Ruathar 1/Unseen Seer 3/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10

PROGRESSION:
1. Wizard1- Point Blank Shot, Spell Focus (Conuration)
2. Wizard2-
3. Wizard3- Iron Will
4. Wizard4-
5. Wizard5- Precise Shot
6. Ruathar1- Extend Spell
7. Unseen Seer1-
8. Unseen Seer2-
9. Nar Demonbinder1- Practiced Spellcaster (Nar Demonbinder)
10. Ultimate Magus1-
11. Ultimate Magus2-
12. Ultimate Magus3- Rapid Shot
13. Ultimate Magus4-
14. Ultimate Magus5- Persistent Spell
15. Ultimate Magus6- Arcane Disciple (War)
16. Ultimate Magus7-
17. Ultimate Magus8-
18. Ultimate Magus9- Woodland Archer
19. Ultimate Magus10- Quicken Spell
20. Unseen Seer3-

NOTE: If feat-granting magical locations are allowed, nab Iron Will via Otyugh Hole, bump everything else earlier, and take Residual Metamagic at 18.

EDIT: Actually, just moving everything earlier wouldn't necessarily be ideal, because it means taking dead feats like AD (War) well before they're useful. Instead, I'd go:

1- PBS, SF (Conj)
*Otyugh Hole- Iron Will
3- Extend Spell
5- Precise Shot
6- Rapid Shot
9- Practiced Spellcaster (NDB)
12- Woodland Archer
14- Persistent Spell
15- Arcane Disciple (War)
18- Residual Metamagic
19- Quicken Spell

This way, you don't take AD (War) until you've got persist, and you don't bother with Residual MM until you've got Quicken. The early feats shake down better as well.

Pretty simple build. Uurkrau lets Dex determine bonus spells on both lists, so the Charisma/Int divide isn't a big deal. Ruathar gives both longbow proficiency and the skills necessary to enter Unseen Seer. Nar Demonbinder is primarily there as persist food, although certainly several of the spells it grants are quite handy. AD (War) is, of course, for persistent Divine Power, but having access to Magic Vestment certainly doesn't hurt.

Draz74

2013-05-27, 11:58 PM

I just realized this build doesn't seem to have a way of getting Hide/MS as a class skill for Psywars (or Darkstalker). How is it getting high enough checks to make use of Chameleon+Concealing Amorpha +Woodland Archer+Sneak Attack + Craven=sniper strategies?

Spend all of your Shadowmind skill points on catching your Hide check (and MS if you have points to spare) up to snuff.

Spend points on cross-class if necessary.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-01, 02:23 PM

Any thoughts on the Uurkrau archer?

Also, posting in another thread on the sniper style of archers, I came up with a rough outline for a build that is my take on ksbsnowowl's iconic archer. That one, way back in the day, focused on using Bless Weapon and Hunter's Mercy alongside the improved critical abilities of Deepwood Sniper to deliver a guaranteed crit that was very powerful.

I messed around with a version that uses sneak attack and Maiming Strike for massive Charisma damage with no save. I don't think it's necessarily worth being its own build, since that sniper style really isn't conducive for actually playing, but I thought I'd c/p it here at least in case anyone is interested:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1

1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot, Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
3- Precise Shot
6- Far Shot
9- Persistent Spell
12- DMM (Persistent Spell)
15- WF (composite longbow)
18- Improved Precise Shot

Starts with +6d6 sneak attack. Persistent hunter's eye and a karma prayer bead ups that to +14d6. A kaorti resin arrow with Deepwood Sniper's projectile improved critical will have a x5 crit modifier.

No room for binding Malphas, so we'll have to rely on clairvoyance or similar to shoot from afar. That's OK. Watch your target, cast corrupt/bless weapon, then hunter's mercy. Buff up the attack roll as well if necessary. Next round, swift action sniper's shot and attack. Sacrifice all +14d6 sneak die into 7 points of Charisma damage. An automatic critical with a x5 modifier turns that into 35 points of Cha damage. Congratulations - you just took down a great wyrm gold dragon in one shot. (Er, assuming you caught it unawares and it didn't have, say, wind wall up. Boy does that spell screw over archers.)

Looking over it again, I immediately see some ways I might improve it. Dipping into ranger (arcane hunter ACF) would be one. Then I could take the Murderous Intent feat, which lets me automatically confirm all crits versus favored enemies, and in turn would let me drop corrupt/bless weapon from everything. Arcane hunter would cover many enemies, and I could use the Chameleon's floating feat to nab Extra Favored Enemy from Ghostwalk for other favored enemies on demand. (It would also give the build a way to work on neutral enemies.)

Could be an interesting NPC sniper build if nothing else.

RFLS

2013-06-01, 02:55 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-06-01, 02:58 PM

Random thought: Lesser Aasimar seems like a good race for the Psycarnum Archer.

Any thoughts on the Uurkrau archer?

Also, posting in another thread on the sniper style of archers, I came up with a rough outline for a build that is my take on ksbsnowowl's iconic archer. That one, way back in the day, focused on using Bless Weapon and Hunter's Mercy alongside the improved critical abilities of Deepwood Sniper to deliver a guaranteed crit that was very powerful.

I messed around with a version that uses sneak attack and Maiming Strike for massive Charisma damage with no save. I don't think it's necessarily worth being its own build, since that sniper style really isn't conducive for actually playing, but I thought I'd c/p it here at least in case anyone is interested:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1

1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot, Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
3- Precise Shot
6- Far Shot
9- Persistent Spell
12- DMM (Persistent Spell)
15- WF (composite longbow)
18- Improved Precise Shot

Starts with +6d6 sneak attack. Persistent hunter's eye and a karma prayer bead ups that to +14d6. A kaorti resin arrow with Deepwood Sniper's projectile improved critical will have a x5 crit modifier.

No room for binding Malphas, so we'll have to rely on clairvoyance or similar to shoot from afar. That's OK. Watch your target, cast corrupt/bless weapon, then hunter's mercy. Buff up the attack roll as well if necessary. Next round, swift action sniper's shot and attack. Sacrifice all +14d6 sneak die into 7 points of Charisma damage. An automatic critical with a x5 modifier turns that into 35 points of Cha damage. Congratulations - you just took down a great wyrm gold dragon in one shot. (Er, assuming you caught it unawares and it didn't have, say, wind wall up. Boy does that spell screw over archers.)

Looking over it again, I immediately see some ways I might improve it. Dipping into ranger (arcane hunter ACF) would be one. Then I could take the Murderous Intent feat, which lets me automatically confirm all crits versus favored enemies, and in turn would let me drop corrupt/bless weapon from everything. Arcane hunter would cover many enemies, and I could use the Chameleon's floating feat to nab Extra Favored Enemy from Ghostwalk for other favored enemies on demand. (It would also give the build a way to work on neutral enemies.)

Could be an interesting NPC sniper build if nothing else.

The Uurkrau archer is a solid build but it doesn't interest me that much. It's basically a theurge gish that happens to use archery and persistomancy.

That Deepwood sniper build looks good (though why is the sniper style not that great for actual play?). I don't have much to say about it but it's good. I also find it interesting that you mentioned grabbing a feat from Ghostwalk. Most of the time it seems like people pretend Ghostwalk doesn't exist.

Speaking of snipers The Silver Hawk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12661048&postcount=179)from IC XXIX is a pretty nice build IMO. You may want to add a link.

thethird

2013-06-01, 03:07 PM

Hmm...something I've always wondered about is the possibility of an Artificer/Rogue/Unseen Seer build that picks up Practiced Spellcaster in order to craft trick arrows and deal large amounts of SA damage. Is that plausible, you think?

It is but of course the artificer can certainly deal a lot of damage, it doesn't actually need to be an archer (and being an archer might end being underpowered).

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-01, 03:34 PM

Hmm...something I've always wondered about is the possibility of an Artificer/Rogue/Unseen Seer build that picks up Practiced Spellcaster in order to craft trick arrows and deal large amounts of SA damage. Is that plausible, you think?

I love artificers and I think they make great archers, but it's worth pointing out that by RAW, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work with artificer.

Random thought: Lesser Aasimar seems like a good race for the Psycarnum Archer.

Two problems with lesser aasimar: it loses Outsider status, and it doesn't have ranger or psywar as a favored class.

That Deepwood sniper build looks good (though why is the sniper style not that great for actual play?). I don't have much to say about it but it's good. I also find it interesting that you mentioned grabbing a feat from Ghostwalk. Most of the time it seems like people pretend Ghostwalk doesn't exist.

I guess I just find that it's not very party friendly to have that be your character's primary focus. I'd love to play a sniper in a solo or small campaign, but there's a lot of setup and stalking your enemy that's involved, where the rest of the party doesn't have much they can do. I suppose it would depend on the party.

Also, sniping and going for one-shot kills is cool in some circumstances but doesn't really make sense for a lot of other encounters. I prefer builds that can snipe if they want to, but don't need to do that to be effective, like the arcane archer and TISP sniper builds I posted.

Re: Ghostwalk, eh, it's not my favorite supplement by a longshot, but I do periodically flip through it to see if there's something neat there that I missed. Anyhow, Extra Favored Enemy was also printed in Masters of the Wild, but I'm pretty sure Ghostwalk came out after that and hence is the most up-to-date version.

Speaking of snipers The Silver Hawk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12661048&postcount=179)from IC XXIX is a pretty nice build IMO. You may want to add a link.

Interesting. I was thinking of an aptitude dual-wielding hand crossbow user that used Boomerang Daze to force a lot of saves versus daze, but I like the direction this one went. The damage and single save is a little low for my tastes, but that could be remedied pretty easily with some tinkering.

Urpriest

2013-06-01, 03:53 PM

Hmm...something I've always wondered about is the possibility of an Artificer/Rogue/Unseen Seer build that picks up Practiced Spellcaster in order to craft trick arrows and deal large amounts of SA damage. Is that plausible, you think?

As others have pointed out, Practiced Spellcaster does nothing for an Artificer (and I'm pretty sure Unseen Seer doesn't work for them, they aren't Arcane). That said, Artificers can Persist quite easily, and between Hunter's Eye, Nightstalker's Transformation, and Draconic Polymorphing into a Babau or the like you can rack up pretty good numbers.

RFLS

2013-06-01, 03:54 PM

I love artificers and I think they make great archers, but it's worth pointing out that by RAW, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work with artificer.

Huh. *goes and reads* I have no idea why I thought that worked per RAW. I think I assumed the section on qualifying for PrCs with caster level prereqs made it okay. Damn... I really loved that concept, too.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-01, 04:26 PM

.......

..........

I just noticed that the Deepwood Sniper build I posted doesn't actually have Maiming Strike. You know, no big deal, it's only the SINGLE MOST ESSENTIAL FEAT IN THE BUILD. Whoops. :smallredface:

(And sure, I could pick it up via the Chameleon's floating feat, but I still find it deeply silly that I managed to forget it.)

123456789blaaa

2013-06-01, 06:31 PM

<snip>
Two problems with lesser aasimar: it loses Outsider status, and it doesn't have ranger or psywar as a favored class.

...oops :smallredface:. I suppose you could still use LA buyoff...heck, if you're doing that you could also use Maeluths (Fiend Folio: -2 Dex, +4 Con; medium planetouched outsider, dwarf traits, 20 ft.). The Otherworldy feat is also an option (use the celestial-attended birth option in CoV so you don't have to stick to the race prequisites).

To be honest I never take into account the favored class rule. It's so terrible and lots of people don't care about it anyways.

<snip>
Interesting. I was thinking of an aptitude dual-wielding hand crossbow user that used Boomerang Daze to force a lot of saves versus daze, but I like the direction this one went. The damage and single save is a little low for my tastes, but that could be remedied pretty easily with some tinkering.

That reminds me of a build I wanted to bring up. Akal Saris's The Sword & Crossbow is a build that I really like. I don't know if it belongs here since it isn't primarily an archer but here it is for you to decide:

This is a character I designed for the GITP forums to effectively fight with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, but it makes pretty effective use of poisons.

Kalimor Srune'lett, NE Half-Drow Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 14/Swordsage 2
Actual levels: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Rogue +1/SB +1/Rogue 1/SW +14
ACFs: Drow swashbuckler 7, Drow Rogue 1, Drow fighter 1 (All from Drow of the Underdark), Spell Sense (C. Mage Rogue 3)
Note: suffers from multi-class penalties - sorry, there's no avoiding this if you actually use those in your game.

Total BAB: +18, total sneak attack: 9-11d6+20 per hit, total HD: 15d10+3d6+2d8

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Feats:
1st: Versatile Combatant (DoTU)
1st flaw: Point Blank Shot
1st flaw: Precise Shot
2nd bonus SB: Weapon Finesse
3rd fighter: Crossbow Sniper (PHB II)
3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DoTU)
6th: Daring Outlaw (C. Scoundrel)
9th: Craven (Champions of Ruin)
12th: Improved Critical (Rapier)
15th: Staggering Strike (DoTU)
18th: Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)

Skills: 8+2 = 10 skills from the rogue list. Probably Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD, Listen, Spot, Search, Craft (Poison), Balance, Sleight of Hand.

Starting equipment (estimates): Composite Shortbow (35g), Studded Leather (30g), Rapier (20g), self-crafted drow poison x3 (75g)

How it all comes together:

1st level: You have Poison Use from your Drow rogue substitution, plus the feats to use a ranged weapon efficiently - so you basically just snipe with a short bow and pretend you don't have versatile combatant or a hand crossbow yet. You also have 3 poisoned arrows which can potentially end an encounter by putting an opponent to sleep.

2nd level: Now you have weapon finesse and +1 BAB, so you can use a rapier without missing consistently. So you become the party tank! You can also afford a masterwork chain shirt, masterwork tools (mostly for crafting poisons and searching for traps, I'd assume), and lots more poisons.

3rd level: Now suddenly you have Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (Drow fighter), as well as 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows (Crossbow sniper), plus weapon focus and rapid reload with a hand crossbow.

So at this point the tactic of charging in with a crossbow and rapier actually becomes viable - assuming no magical bonuses and a pair of masterwork weapons, you should be attacking at +5 for 1d6+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed) with the rapier, and +6 for 1d4+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed foes) with the crossbow. In addition to whatever poisons you've applied to your bolts and rapier - I like Roach Paste and Drow Poison on most things.

For equipment, a pair of MW weapons is good, as is picking up a str-based composite longbow and some more varied and higher DC poisons.

4th-5th level: Nothing special here, Dex gets bumped. For items, I'd get the Gloves of Dexterity ASAP, and some weapon crystals for quickdraw on your weapons is very helpful (MIC).

6th level: Daring Outlaw kicks into play, so you suddenly gain +1 Dodge to AC, but more importantly Sneak attack jumps from +1d6 to +3d6 damage. A Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) is a great asset to stealth at this point.

7th: Now you add your Int to damage with the rapier. Adding the Assassination or Toxic/Virulent properties to your rapier to keep your poisons competitive is a good idea at this point.

8th: Dex gets bumped, adding to your damage, attacks, reflex, AC, and initiative. If you can use the online addition to SB, you can also use Bluff to seduce people =) The Ring of Anticipation (DoTU) is a good pick by this point, allowing you to roll 2x for initiative, helping to catch opponents flat-footed.

9th: Craven adds your character level to damage with sneak attacks, so you'll be dealing +4d6+9 (+4d6 +14 against flat-footed) with sneak attacks.
The Bracers of Murder (DoTU) are a great pick at this point, allowing you to reroll 1's on sneak attacks, as well as gaining +2 to att/dmg against flat-footed foes.

11th: Drow swashbuckler kicks in, allowing you to 5-ft step as a swift action whenever you hit once with at least each weapon in a round. Or you can keep Acrobatic Charge, but drow swashbuckler is a much more stylish effect in my mind.

12th: You now gain +4 on flanking from swashbuckler, and improved critical with the rapier

15th: Now whenever you critical with a rapier, the opponent is automatically slowed with no save, which should cut down on the mobility of anything trying to do Flyby Attack, or the deadliness of anything with nasty iterative attacks - such as practically every opponent you face by this point.

18th: Now your criticals with the hand crossbow will also slow opponents! Also, Weakening Critical from SB kicks in, allowing you to deal 2 Str damage to a creature every critical - combine it with 3d6 Str damage from Dragon Bile or another Str-based poison and anything not immune will drop fast.

19th: Swordsage adds nicely to Will and reflex, along with Weapon Focus (Rapier) from Diamond Mind Focus, +1 Init, and 6 maneuvers and a stance. Blood in the Water stance, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Swift Invisibility, and Shadow Stride.

20th: Adds Assassin's Stance (or a mobility/senses ones) and probably Rabid Bear Strike.

Character roles and tactics:
The primary role is damage-dealer, which should be strong from 1st to 20th, but really increases in power at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level. The character is also a strong skills-monkey and scout from 1st-6th, but will be less efficient in that role afterwards due to the SB's mediocre skills list. The character is also a very solid tank, with 17d10+3d6 HP over the course of 20 levels - and as she gets weaker as a skills character her tanking should improve.

Finally, the character has more versatility in tactics than most damage-based classes - he can switch between melee and ranged combat easily, and poison use allows him to attack ability scores directly instead of just damage, or deal Con damage along with HP damage to drop a foe even faster than normal. Ideally, the character will function as the scout and tank, initiating every combat at the front line against flat-footed foes.

In PF, the character can maintain his role as skill-monkey from 1st to 20th.

Other good feats to take:
Quick Draw (also opens up some skill tricks)
Apprentice (Craftsman or Criminal)

(note: the build skeleton at the top seems a little messed up. You also don't actually have to be a drow/half-drow to take the drow substitution levels)

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-02, 03:41 PM

To be honest I never take into account the favored class rule. It's so terrible and lots of people don't care about it anyways.

I don't like favored class penalties, but I try to design builds that won't get screwed over by it. Same thing goes for stuff like flaws and feat-granting magical locations - they're great if they're allowed, but I'd rather have them as a nice bonus rather than an integral part of the build.

For a more "elegant" version of the sniper build, how does something like this look? It's a definite drop in power, but I know you mentioned liking to see builds with fewer dips, and I'll admit to feeling happier about "simple" builds myself.

Ranger 2/Wilderness Feat Rogue 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Chameleon 7

(Dedicated to an Elder Evil of your choosing.)

1. Feat Rogue1- PBS, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Evil Brand
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Darkstalker
4. Feat Rogue2- WF (Comp. Longbow)
5. Feat Rogue3- Blood War Conscript
6. Feat Rogue4- Far Shot, Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
7. Deepwood Sniper1-
8. DWS2-
9. DWS3- Knowledge Devotion
10. DWS4- Murderous Intent
11. Chameleon1-
12. Chameleon2- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
13. DWS5-
14. DWS6-
15. DWS7- Scion of Sorrow, Craven
16. Chameleon3-
17. Chameleon4-
18. Chameleon5- Maiming Strike
19. Chameleon6-
20. Chameleon7- Tormented Knight

It gets all the relevant stealth goodies, and can use Hunter's Mercy and Murderous Intent to fire off arrows guaranteed to crit with a x6 multiplier (with kaorti resin arrows). It gets Poison Use, and Chameleon can nab Minor Creation to make poisons on demand. It can pick up new favored enemies on demand via the floating feat for Extra Favored Enemy (since Murderous Intent is reliant on Favored Enemy, this is important). With Hunter's Eye we're looking at 4 points of Charisma damage, which translates to 24 points with the auto-crit.

So, assuming a +2 collision energy bow with GMW cast on it, and a +4 strength bonus, we can look at something like...

1d8 +2 FE +20 craven +1 Blood War Conscript +5 enhancement +5 collision +4 strength +17 power shot +5 knowledge devotion = 1d8+59 base damage. So with a single arrow, we're looking at a MINIMUM of 360 points of damage, plus poison and 24 points of Charisma damage. If they're a lawful or chaotic outsider, they also have to save vs. the damage dealt (ha!) or take an additional 1d4 points of Cha damage.

Honestly I'm a little disappointed with the damage, because that means that its "headshots" do less damage than the expected CR 20 HP (~448), although the bonus effects are nice. That being said, while only the first attack will auto-crit, there's nothing in the world stopping you from making a full attack, so the subsequent shots should do the trick.

123456789blaaa

2013-06-03, 11:58 AM

I don't like favored class penalties, but I try to design builds that won't get screwed over by it. Same thing goes for stuff like flaws and feat-granting magical locations - they're great if they're allowed, but I'd rather have them as a nice bonus rather than an integral part of the build.

For a more "elegant" version of the sniper build, how does something like this look? It's a definite drop in power, but I know you mentioned liking to see builds with fewer dips, and I'll admit to feeling happier about "simple" builds myself.

Ranger 2/Wilderness Feat Rogue 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Chameleon 7

(Dedicated to an Elder Evil of your choosing.)

1. Feat Rogue1- PBS, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Evil Brand
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Darkstalker
4. Feat Rogue2- WF (Comp. Longbow)
5. Feat Rogue3- Blood War Conscript
6. Feat Rogue4- Far Shot, Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
7. Deepwood Sniper1-
8. DWS2-
9. DWS3- Knowledge Devotion
10. DWS4- Murderous Intent
11. Chameleon1-
12. Chameleon2- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
13. DWS5-
14. DWS6-
15. DWS7- Scion of Sorrow, Craven
16. Chameleon3-
17. Chameleon4-
18. Chameleon5- Maiming Strike
19. Chameleon6-
20. Chameleon7- Tormented Knight

It gets all the relevant stealth goodies, and can use Hunter's Mercy and Murderous Intent to fire off arrows guaranteed to crit with a x6 multiplier (with kaorti resin arrows). It gets Poison Use, and Chameleon can nab Minor Creation to make poisons on demand. It can pick up new favored enemies on demand via the floating feat for Extra Favored Enemy (since Murderous Intent is reliant on Favored Enemy, this is important). With Hunter's Eye we're looking at 4 points of Charisma damage, which translates to 24 points with the auto-crit.

So, assuming a +2 collision energy bow with GMW cast on it, and a +4 strength bonus, we can look at something like...

1d8 +2 FE +20 craven +1 Blood War Conscript +5 enhancement +5 collision +4 strength +17 power shot +5 knowledge devotion = 1d8+59 base damage. So with a single arrow, we're looking at a MINIMUM of 360 points of damage, plus poison and 24 points of Charisma damage. If they're a lawful or chaotic outsider, they also have to save vs. the damage dealt (ha!) or take an additional 1d4 points of Cha damage.

Honestly I'm a little disappointed with the damage, because that means that its "headshots" do less damage than the expected CR 20 HP (~448), although the bonus effects are nice. That being said, while only the first attack will auto-crit, there's nothing in the world stopping you from making a full attack, so the subsequent shots should do the trick.

Looks great :smallcool:. And since there's not much reason to use only a single attack, the headshot problem doesn't seem bad. Also, even though it's free Tormented Knight seems really crappy. Both by itself and with the additional pain of having to take those horrible prequisite feats. Why not take some Deformity feats to expand the builds versatility a little more?

What do you think of The Sword and Bow? Does it count as an archer?

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-03, 05:05 PM

Looks great :smallcool:. And since there's not much reason to use only a single attack, the headshot problem doesn't seem bad. Also, even though it's free Tormented Knight seems really crappy. Both by itself and with the additional pain of having to take those horrible prequisite feats. Why not take some Deformity feats to expand the builds versatility a little more?

Yeah, I considered the Willing Deformity feats, but most of them don't give me much. The one that I really like, Deformity (Madness), won't work because I need my Wisdom to cast spells. I just tossed on Tormented Knight for the free align weapon effect in case I come against DR, and figured the extra Charisma damage against outsiders didn't hurt.

The only Vile feat the build actually NEEDS is Murderous Intent. I guess it wouldn't be crazy to replace Scion of Sorrow and Tormented Knight with Apostate and Insane Defiance, which aren't too bad for shoring up defenses.

What do you think of The Sword and Bow? Does it count as an archer?

I like it a lot, although some of it comes online a little bit late for my tastes. If I were redoing it, I'd probably drop the heavy focus on swashbuckler (drow swashbuckler is cool, but other than that it seems kind of meh), pack in some more ToB, move Staggering Strike/Craven earlier, and maybe fit in a way to generate or harvest poisons within the build itself (poisons are great but kind of a terrible cost sink if you can't harvest and craft them yourself).

As for whether it's an archer or not - well heck, with builds like the manticore belt totemist and such in here, I think it's kind of silly to quibble over terminology. It's a classy build with a prominent ranged element, so that's good enough for me.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-21, 05:59 PM

OK, I've made some minor changes to the sniper build and updated the first post to include it.

Any other thoughts for new archery directions to go in? Or other things you'd like to see me focus on?

Part of me still wants to throw together a dual wielding crossbow build - probably using Quick Draw to pull out a lot of pre-loaded hand crossbows, in order to replicate the firefight from Boondock Saints (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfXuNJxWw88). As I mentioned above, my first thought in that direction would probably involve Aptitude Crossbows and Boomerang Daze to force a lot of saves versus daze, but I'm not sure.

I also still haven't done a classic cleric archer or swift hunter, although I feel like those have already been done well enough that I don't really have anything interesting to add to them. Am I missing any other classic archery styles that could use a new twist?

Draz74

2013-06-21, 06:28 PM

Am I missing any other classic archery styles that could use a new twist?

Eternal Blade?

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-21, 06:30 PM

Eternal Blade?

Been done already, and quite well at that: meet the Heavy Weapons Elf (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29415303/), by Andarious. Designed as a cohort, but would be awesome to play, and heavily inspired my White Raven Archer.

danzibr

2013-06-21, 06:42 PM

I noticed the Totemist one still has Craven and Assassin's Stance. Might want to fix that (unless I'm missing something obvious) or at least mention the precision damage only applies to the first attack as Manticore Belt takes a standard action.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-21, 07:17 PM

thethird

2013-06-24, 03:30 PM

So Since I worked on this while I was working on this IC I'll leave it here.

Arashi
{table=head] Level |Class |Feats |Class Features

1 |Factotum |Able Learner, Improved Initiative |Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding

2 |Swashbuckler |Weapon finesse |Weapon finesse

3 |Fighter |Point blank shot, Far Shot |Hit and run tactics, Bonus feat

4 |Marshal |Skill focus (diplomacy) |Minor Aura (Motivate Dexterity)

5 |Warblade | |Battle Clarity Weapon aptitude

6 |Bloodstorm Blade |Weapon focus (Katana), Throw Anything |Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon aptitude

7 |Bloodstorm Blade | |Martial throw, thunderous throw

8 |Bloodstorm Blade |Combat Expertise |Bonus feat

9 |Bloodstorm Blade |Precise shot |Lighting Ricochet

0 |Master Thrower |Quick draw |Quick draw, Thrown weapon trick (Defensive throw)

1 |Iaijutsu Master | |Weapon finesse (katana), Canny defense

2 |Iaijutsu Master |Master Pickpocket |Lighting Blade

3 |Iaijutsu Master | |-

4 |Iaijutsu Master |Improved disarm |Bonus feat

5 |Exemplar |Snatch weapon |Skill artistry (IF), Skill Mastery

6 |Iaijutsu Master | |Strike from the Void

7 |Master Thrower | |Evasion

8 |Master Thrower |Two weapon fighting |Thrown weapon trick (Two with one blow)

9 |Master Thrower |Snatch Arrows |Snatch Arrow

0 |Master Thrower | |Critical Throw, Thrown weapon trick (Weak Spot) [/table]

Skill points go at least into Diplomacy, Iaijutsu Focus and Sleight of Hand.

Arashi is Dex and Cha focused.

So how does it work? Arashi normally will go first, since his initiative bonus is DEX + CHA + CHA + 4. He will draw his katana, and throw it at its enemy, but it would count as a melee touch attack. He then will disarm him, high bab + Dex + Improved Disarm and a two handed weapon give a slight bonus, and the weapon of his enemy will fly to his hand (thanks to snatch weapon). Then he will sheath the weapon making a sleight of hand check as a free action (there are extra uses on the Song of Silence to hide weapons larger than a dagger) and draw it as a free action for IF damage. Then he will throw it at his enemies. He will keep repeating until his enemies run out of weapons. Since he can sheath/hide weapons as a free action he basically can steal most weapons from afar with impunity. Of course, if he chooses so, he can chuckle his weapon as a melee touch attack that deals full Iaijutsu focus (and add his CHA for each die) and DEX if the enemy is close and/or hit two enemies while they are adjacent.

Piggy Knowles

2013-06-26, 05:19 PM

Looks great, but where are you getting the ability to sheathe a weapon as a free action?

I'll add a link on the first post.

thethird

2013-06-26, 05:50 PM

Sleight of hand checks can be performed as a free action by increasing the dc by 10 (thanks to master pickpocket). There are uses of pick poket (sleight of hand) in Song & Silence to hide items larher than a dagger and to be able to draw those items as a free action (with quick draw)

Vaz

2013-06-26, 07:39 PM

Similar to the old Katana Chucker;

Sam 2/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 5/Master Thrower 5/Iaijutsu Master 5

Max your Iaijutsu Check out (23 ranks, High Charisma Bonus, potentially Custom +X Iaijutsu Focus Items/Masterwork Tools, etc), and you're coming home with up to 9 additional dice of damage, each one of those adding on your Charisma.

I've run a Charisma Focused Crane Clan Courtier//Iaijutsu Master Gestalt in a Rokugan setting, and it was pulling in on each attack against a flat footed foe 9d6+162 damage, and with 6 attacks (as a TWF'er), that soon mounted up. It helped with the setting, of course, in that as an Honourable character, I could call out an opponent, or shame them.

As a Factotum, you can also bring home UMD for stuff like scrolls of Sirine's Grace, Snowsong, etc for even greater benefits.

Talking of UMD, I might have a build. I've never used one of these, so it'll be interesting.

Edit; quick brew up.

Unseelie Fey Grey Elf Artificer 20

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Knowledge Devotion, Flyby Attack, Darkstalker, Travel Devotion

Basically, it just crafts the archery gear for itself as well as having the additional utility elsewhere. Fell Shot gives it a Touch Attack, K. Dev increases its attack. It has all the utility elsewhere, and while it's a particularly mediocre archer, it's still got Flyby attacking, and can Divine Power itself up.

Another, is Monk 3/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 8/Warmind 7, with Monastic Training and Tashalatora (Soulbow), Flowing Blade, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit and Practised Manifester (Warmind). Assuming Strongheart Halfling, that's 2 free feats; Travel Devotion and Darkstalker

Gives you 16BAB, Sweeping Stike with IUS (and Psywar manifesting; Augmented Expansion+Robilar's Gambit+Combat Reflexes). For hiding manifest augmented Compression for Fine size, and use Darkstalker to hide. Swap Travel devotion if you wish for Expanded Knowledge (Cloud Mind) if you wish, but that is only a single enemy target, and the mass version is 6th, so unavailable as a Warmind 7. Flowing Blade lets you Greater Flurry of Blows at BAB16 and lets your Mindblade Itrigger off it.

It can theoretically work with VoP as well.

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-17, 03:54 PM

I know it's been a while since I've added to this thread, but I just finished a build stub I'd been working on. It's for a Factotum archer who focuses on poison and surprise attacks. Here it is:

Human, Factotum 8/Warblade 3/Feat Rogue 2/Heir of Siberys 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Mindbender 1

1. Factotum1- Hidden Talent (PMC), Master of Poisons
2. Rogue1- Point Blank Shot
3. Rogue2- Rapid Shot, Heroic Spirit
4. Factotum2-
5. Factotum3-
6. Mindbender1- Mindsight
7. Factotum4-
8. Factotum5-
9. Warblade1- Manyshot
10. Factotum6-
11. Factotum7-
12. Factotum8- Greater Manyshot
13. Heir of Siberys1- Action Surge
14. Heir of Siberys2- Mark of Stars
15. Heir of Siberys3- Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders), Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak)
16. Warblade2-
17. Warblade3-
18. Uncanny Trickster1- Darkstalker
19. Uncanny Trickster2-
20. Uncanny Trickster3- Blind-Fight

(Uncanny Trickster progresses Warblade. Siberys mark is the Mark of Sentinel.)

MANEUVERS:
1- Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind
2- Claw at the Moon
3- Mind over Body
5- Dancing Mongoose
6- Moment of Alacrity
7- Quicksilver Motion

STANCES:
Blood in the Water, Leaping Dragon Stance

NOTE: This build assumes multiclass penalties are in effect. If they are not, consider going Factotum 8/Warblade 6/Feat Rogue 2/Heir of Siberys 3/Mindbender 1

The basic plan is as follows:

TRACK your enemies via Mindsight;
PHASE IN ethereally via Phase Cloak;
ATTACK with multiple poisoned arrows via Greater Manyshot, gaining extra standard actions with Action Surge and Cunning Surge;
PHASE OUT as a swift action via Quicksilver Motion or Sudden Leap.

In addition, this guy has excellent skills, has Mind Blank up 24/7 via his Siberys mark, is never surprised or flat-footed, has great stealth (Mind Blank, ethereal movement, spells, skills and Darkstalker), and has all of the goodies you'd expect from an 8th-level Factotum.

Any thoughts or advice on this one? I also need a name for it before I can add it to my builds in the first post.

Emperor Tippy

2013-11-17, 04:03 PM

Possibly replace the two Rogue levels with Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk with Kung Fu Genius.

Feat wise it is a wash (Martial Monk 2 gives you two Fighter Bonus feats without needing the prerequisites while it also gives you Improved Unarmed Strike which can be Chaos Shuffled to make up for Kung Fu Genius) but its picks you up Int to AC when unarmored, what is effectively greater invisibility one round in three, and the ability to make all of your attacks for the round deal double damage sometimes.

Total cost is 8 fewer skill points.

123456789blaaa

2013-11-17, 06:18 PM

Does your post count as Thread Necromancy PK?

Anyways, glad to see more builds :smallbiggrin:. This guy looks pretty awesome. He's just really solid and flexible and I would totally use him in a game (if I had time for one...:smallsigh:). It pains me though, that I give pretty generic comments on the builds here (it's original/powerful/flexible bla bla blaaa) :smallsigh:. I feel like they deserve better.

An obvious name would be TPAP archer/sniper/etc given the basic plan. You already have the TISP sniper though...I'll try and think of something. A very small thing that's bugging me is that the +1 to spellcasting Mindbender gives is getting wasted. This is more of a tiny Elegance issue than a Power one.

On an unrelated note, the Elder Evil that the Murderous Sniper worships is probably Zurgath, The Feasting Vast. It's a being from the Far Realm that the Kaorti worship. If you wanted to switch back Tormented Knight and Scion of Sorrow, perhaps he was ordered by his Yugoloth lord to serve as an assassin for the Kaorti? We do have canon examples of characters worshipping both an Elder Evil and a Fiendish Lord.

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-17, 09:07 PM

Possibly replace the two Rogue levels with Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk with Kung Fu Genius.

Hmm. Not a bad idea if you're allowing Dragon material - actually, it would save a couple of feats, because I could ditch taking PBS and just skip straight to Manyshot/Greater Manyshot. I'll include a note to swap in martial monk if you're playing in a game that allows it.

Does your post count as Thread Necromancy PK?

I hope not - I did update the original post, and since this is a compendium that does get updated, I'm hoping it doesn't count as necromancy. I'd rather not do a new thread.

A very small thing that's bugging me is that the +1 to spellcasting Mindbender gives is getting wasted. This is more of a tiny Elegance issue than a Power one.

I originally used a level of Totemist instead and took Open Least Chakra alongside the Shedu Crown for (somewhat dubious) telepathy, but the feat timing didn't really work out. Mindbender ended up being the least disruptive option. But yeah, it is the most out of place element of the build.

On an unrelated note, the Elder Evil that the Murderous Sniper worships is probably Zurgath, The Feasting Vast. It's a being from the Far Realm that the Kaorti worship. If you wanted to switch back Tormented Knight and Scion of Sorrow, perhaps he was ordered by his Yugoloth lord to serve as an assassin for the Kaorti? We do have canon examples of characters worshipping both an Elder Evil and a Fiendish Lord.

Actually, that's a pretty cool idea, since it ties in with the use of Kaorti resin arrows and the general assassin vibe. I may tinker with that idea a bit.

Thanks!

Menzath

2013-11-18, 02:59 PM

Was looking though this the other day, and you can proably do the Hulk smash arrows with a Half-elf duskblade/Paragon Half-elf/Arcane Archer/Chameleon using delayed blast fireballs.(can half-elves take that feat at 1st level or is it humans only?) I may have to work something else out.
Maybe a bard/arcane archer/lyric thamuturge? eh i'll make it work somehow.
I'll have to work through and build that.

But also I got an inspiration to build A slightly different Psi based archer. Might be a week or two for these but i'll post them as they come up.

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-18, 03:04 PM

It's human only, but with the Human Heritage feat, you can still take it. The only difficulty is that they're both "first level only" feats.

Half-elves can get into both Arcane Archer and Chameleon either by playing with flaws to take both Human Heritage and Able Learner at first level, or by taking that first level of Half-Elf Paragon at first level for the bonus feat.

Menzath

2013-11-18, 04:02 PM

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-18, 05:16 PM

Hmm I don't like using flaws, they leave a bad taste.
Looks like I may go with the bard build then. Ah and posted the wrong PrC, meant Sublime Chord.

oh looks like chameleon wouldn't have worked anyways, delayed blast fireball is a 7th lvl spell.

Well, like I said, you can make it work without flaws by taking Half-Elf Paragon as your first level, taking Human Heritage with your regular feat, and using HEP's bonus feat for Able Learner.

But yeah, short of shenanigans, delayed blast fireball is out of reach. That's one of the reasons I suggested using Fire Seeds for holly berry bombs and their command word trigger.

Phaederkiel

2013-11-18, 08:31 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-11-21, 02:56 AM

<snip>
I hope not - I did update the original post, and since this is a compendium that does get updated, I'm hoping it doesn't count as necromancy. I'd rather not do a new thread.

Well some time ago I asked St.Roland why he locked a revived handbook. Turns out the compendium/handbook Thread Necromancy immunity is myth :smallfrown:. Still, they haven't locked this one yet.

I originally used a level of Totemist instead and took Open Least Chakra alongside the Shedu Crown for (somewhat dubious) telepathy, but the feat timing didn't really work out. Mindbender ended up being the least disruptive option. But yeah, it is the most out of place element of the build.

HoS also progresses spellcasting for two levels...hmm. If we used flaws, we could remove the need for Feat Rogue. Maybe replace those levels with a class that has spellcasting?

Actually, that's a pretty cool idea, since it ties in with the use of Kaorti resin arrows and the general assassin vibe. I may tinker with that idea a bit.

Thanks!

Welcome! :smallbiggrin:

The obvious problem with all these Phase Cloak-focused builds is what they do if fighting when their are no rooms to phase into (a flat plain or a tunnel for example). How do they deal with this?

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-21, 10:43 AM

Well some time ago I asked St.Roland why he locked a revived handbook. Turns out the compendium/handbook Thread Necromancy immunity is myth :smallfrown:. Still, they haven't locked this one yet.

Huh, I had always assumed that as long as there was new content being added, it wasn't an issue. I hope it doesn't get locked - I like being able to add things to it, and keep all the builds in the same place.

HoS also progresses spellcasting for two levels...hmm. If we used flaws, we could remove the need for Feat Rogue. Maybe replace those levels with a class that has spellcasting?

I like the idea of using every part of the buffalo and not letting Mindbender/HoS have their spellcasting advancement go to waste, but after a certain point I kind of wonder whether it would be worth it for getting one or two levels of a spellcasting class in. I guess warlock or DFA would never go amiss, if I had free levels to play with?

The obvious problem with all these Phase Cloak-focused builds is what they do if fighting when their are no rooms to phase into (a flat plain or a tunnel for example). How do they deal with this?

Well, luckily, ethereal movement is handy for a wide number of reasons. Even in a broad flat plain, they would pair particularly well with a BFC wizard, since they can phase in and through any BFC effect that doesn't carry the [Force] descriptor to plague enemies. The TISP sniper could actually provide some of those effects himself, and I suppose technically this guy can as well via Arcane Dilettante, but he won't be that great at it. Still, outdoor encounters are actually a good thing for a sniper with solid skills, magical detection methods and decent stealth, and the fact that he's also a factotum/warblade means that tunnels won't screw him over quite as much as other archers. (I hope, anyhow...)

123456789blaaa

2013-11-21, 09:45 PM

<snip>
I like the idea of using every part of the buffalo and not letting Mindbender/HoS have their spellcasting advancement go to waste, but after a certain point I kind of wonder whether it would be worth it for getting one or two levels of a spellcasting class in. I guess warlock or DFA would never go amiss, if I had free levels to play with?
<snip>

Worth mentioning as an option at least.

Zombulian

2013-11-24, 12:33 AM

Say, didn't you make an Archery build for Tippy's Trial? Where da Monk build at?

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-24, 08:45 AM

Say, didn't you make an Archery build for Tippy's Trial? Where da Monk build at?

I'm pretty sure that was Xervous, who built a saint monk Zen Archer with Shiba Protector. I'll have to trawl through the thread at some point and pull up a link to it.

Zombulian

2013-11-24, 12:04 PM

I'm pretty sure that was Xervous, who built a saint monk Zen Archer with Shiba Protector. I'll have to trawl through the thread at some point and pull up a link to it.

Oh yeah it was. You did a build as well but I guess it wasn't archery. His is on page 7.

killem2

2013-11-24, 08:59 PM

Pickford

2013-11-24, 11:57 PM

Perhaps we could consider at least one regularish archer?

Human Fighter 20
(Don't forget to use the dead levels web enhancement)

PROGRESSION:

1. Human - Guerilla Scout (HoB), 1st - Weapon Focus (Longbow) (PHB), Fighter1 - Point Blank Shot (PHB)
2. Fighter2 - Rapid Shot (PHB)
3. 3rd - Precise Shot (PHB)
4. Fighter4 - Weapon Specialization (Longbow) (PHB)
5. Fighter6 - Ranged Pin (CW), 6th - Manyshot (PHB)
6. Fighter8 - Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (PHB II)
7. 9th - Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) (PHB)
8. Fighter10 - Penetrating Shot (PHB II)
9. 12th - Improved Rapid Shot (CW), Fighter12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow) (PHB)
10. Figher14 - Ready Shot (HoB)
11. 15th - Mounted Combat (PHB)
12. Fighter16 - Mounted Archery (PHB)
13. Fighter18 - Weapon Supremacy (Longbow) (PHB II), 18th - Improved Mounted Combat (CW)
14. Fighter20 - Improved Precise Shot (PHB)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-25, 12:00 AM

I figure that I might as well toss this build stub that I found the other day when I was looking for a different build.

LX (Lawful anything) Human Ranger 2/Soulknife 3/Soulbow 4/Shiba Protector 1/Kensai 5/Swordsage 5
32 Point buy: STR10, DEX10, CON14, INT14, WIS18, CHA08 (all points to Wisdom)
{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Trap Expert Ranger 1|Favored enemy, wild empathy, trapfinding|Able Learner, Combat ExpertiseH
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Two-Weapon FightingB
3|+2|Soulknife 1|Mindblade|Hidden Talent (dimension hop)B, Alertness, Weapon Focus (mindblade)B
4|+3|Soulknife 2|Throw mindblade|
5|+4|Soulknife 3|Feat variant|Point Blank ShotB
6|+4|Soulbow 1|Mind arrow|Zen Archery, Precise ShotB
7|+5|Soulbow 2|Mind arrow enhancement (+1)|
8|+6|Soulbow 3|+1 mind arrow|Far ShotB
9|+7|Soulbow 4|Close combat shot|Weapon Focus (mind arrow)
10|+7|Shiba Protector 1|No thought|
11|+7|Kensai 1|Signature weapon|
12|+8|Kensai 2|Power surge|Woodland Archery
13|+9|Kensai 3||
14|+10|Kensai 4|Ki projection|
15|+10|Kensai 5|Withstand|OPEN
16|+10|Swordsage 1|Quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus)(Setting Sun/Shadow Hand)|
17|+11|Swordsage 2|AC bonus|
18|+12|Swordsage 3||OPEN
19|+13|Swordsage 4|Discipline focus (insightful strike)(Tiger Claw)|
20|+13|Swordsage 5|Quick to act +2|[/table]

*Note - you'll either need to buy Iron Will, or take a Flaw to make all the feats fit.

Basically, from what I've noted on this build, its just stacking Wisdom and attacks. Make your mind arrows into +1 collision lucky splitting mind arrows (collision and splitting thanks to Kensai), and at 20th level (making sure to pick up Dancing Mongoose), you'll be launching off 12 arrows doing 1d8+1+5+7+7+7, or +27, at a +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+21/+21 with Dancing Mongoose. Oh, and if you miss, you get a +4 to all subsequent attacks. And you can reroll every attack if you want (thanks to Lucky).

Naked.

Deophaun

2013-11-25, 12:12 AM

Weapon Focus (Mind Arrow) is redundant because...

Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable.
...which should satisfy all Kensai requirements.

Edit:Don't forget gloves of the balanced hand to give you Improved TWF.

Zombulian

2013-11-25, 12:19 AM

I figure that I might as well toss this build stub that I found the other day when I was looking for a different build.

Human Ranger 2/Soulknife 3/Soulbow 4/Shiba Protector 1/Kensai 5/Swordsage 5
32 Point buy: STR10, DEX10, CON14, INT14, WIS18, CHA08 (all points to Wisdom)
{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Trap Expert Ranger 1|Favored enemy, wild empathy, trapfinding|Able Learner, Combat ExpertiseH
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Two-Weapon FightingB
3|+2|Soulknife 1|Mindblade|Hidden Talent (dimension hop)B, Alertness, Weapon Focus (mindblade)B
4|+3|Soulknife 2|Throw mindblade|
5|+4|Soulknife 3|Feat variant|Point Blank ShotB
6|+4|Soulbow 1|Mind arrow|Zen Archery, Precise ShotB
7|+5|Soulbow 2|Mind arrow enhancement (+1)|
8|+6|Soulbow 3|+1 mind arrow|Far ShotB
9|+7|Soulbow 4|Close combat shot|Weapon Focus (mind arrow)
10|+7|Shiba Protector 1|No thought|
11|+7|Kensai 1|Signature weapon|
12|+8|Kensai 2|Power surge|Woodland Archery
13|+9|Kensai 3||
14|+10|Kensai 4|Ki projection|
15|+10|Kensai 5|Withstand|OPEN
16|+10|Swordsage 1|Quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus)(Setting Sun/Shadow Hand)|
17|+11|Swordsage 2|AC bonus|
18|+12|Swordsage 3||OPEN
19|+13|Swordsage 4|Discipline focus (insightful strike)(Tiger Claw)|
20|+13|Swordsage 5|Quick to act +2|[/table]

*Note - you'll either need to buy Iron Will, or take a Flaw to make all the feats fit.

Basically, from what I've noted on this build, its just stacking Wisdom and attacks. Make your mind arrows into +1 collision lucky splitting mind arrows (collision and splitting thanks to Kensai), and at 20th level (making sure to pick up Dancing Mongoose), you'll be launching off 12 arrows doing 1d8+1+5+7+7+7, or +27, at a +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+21/+21 with Dancing Mongoose. Oh, and if you miss, you get a +4 to all subsequent attacks. And you can reroll every attack if you want (thanks to Lucky).

Naked.

Huh. Somehow I've never thought of using Kensai with Soulknife or Soulbow.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-25, 12:37 AM

Weapon Focus (Mind Arrow) is redundant because...

...which should satisfy all Kensai requirements.

Edit:Don't forget gloves of the balanced hand to give you Improved TWF.

...Well, I feel silly now. How have I never noticed that before? and I know about the Gloves - I was just trying to see what he could do with no equipment.

@zombulian: Yeah, the advancement is a lot faster than either Soulknife or Soulbow. The Ride/Diplomacy ranks are a pain, though.

DEMON

2013-11-25, 12:22 PM

Perhaps we could consider at least one regularish archer?

This is the mundane-est non-entirely-mundane archer build I can come up with (besides the Fighter 20 you posted).

Human Ranger 19/Fighter 1

{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Trap Expert Ranger 1|Favored enemy, Wild empathy, Trapfinding|Point Blank Shot, Precise ShotH
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Rapid ShotB
3|+3|Sneak Attack / Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter 1|Sneak Attack +1d6, +2 Initiative, DEX to damage |Craven
4|+4|Ranger 3||EnduranceB
5|+5|Ranger 4|Shooting Star Substitution|
6|+6|Ranger 5|Favored enemy|Woodland Archer
7|+7|Ranger 6|Combat style|ManyshotB
8|+8|Ranger 7|Woodland Stride|
9|+9|Ranger 8||SotAO
10|+10|Ranger 9|Evasion|
11|+11|Ranger 10|Favored enemy|
12|+12|Ranger 11|Combat style|Darkstalker, Improved Precise ShotB
13|+13|Ranger 12||
14|+14|Ranger 13|Camouflage|
15|+15|Ranger 14||Improved Rapid Shot
16|+16|Ranger 15|Favored enemy|
17|+17|Ranger 16||
18|+18|Ranger 17|HiPS|Knowledge Devotion
19|+19|Ranger 18||
20|+20|Ranger 19||[/table]

Full BAB
Trapfinding, Wild Empathy
Additional damage in the form of Sneak Attack + Craven and Dex to damage (all limited to 30 ft. though), Favored Enemy and Knowledge Devotion
Almost full Ranger spellcasting improved by Shooting Star substitution level 4 + Sword of the Arcane order for extra options in and out of combat
Darkstalker, Camouflage, HiPS to help with scouting and sneak attacks

Far from the power level of a much more elaborate builds, but pretty straightforward to build and understand what it does.

Can also be turned into Mystic Ranger for a lot more more magical power without much additional effort.

And this is the pure mundane archer that should still be able to cover some more bases besides I stand still and shoot a lot of arrows at target X, but not much.

Raptoran Ranger 16/Fighter 4
ACFs: Trap Expert, Spiritual Connection, Spiritual Guide, Champion of the Wild (all Ranger), Resolute, Raptoran Substitution Level 1 (both Fighter)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Ranger 1|Favored enemy, Spiritual Connection, Trapfinding|Point Blank Shot
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Rapid ShotB
3|+3|Ranger 3||EnduranceB, Weapon Focus (Footbow)
4|+4|Ranger 4|Spiritual Guide|Precise ShotB
5|+5|Ranger 5|Favored enemy|
6|+6|Fighter 1|Encumbered Flight|Hover, Woodland ArcherB
7|+7|Fighter 2|Resolute|
8|+8|Fighter 3||
9|+9|Fighter 4||Weapon Specialization (Footbow)B, Ranged Weapon Mastery
10|+10|Ranger 6|Combat style|ManyshotB
11|+11|Ranger 7|Woodland Stride|
12|+12|Ranger 8||Improved Rapid ShotB, Flyby Attack
13|+13|Ranger 9|Evasion|
14|+14|Ranger 10|Favored enemy|
15|+15|Ranger 11|Combat style|Darkstalker, Improved Precise ShotB, Far ShotB
16|+16|Ranger 12||
17|+17|Ranger 13|Camouflage|
18|+18|Ranger 14||OPEN, Knowledge Devotion
19|+19|Ranger 15|Favored enemy|
20|+20|Ranger 16||[/table]

While I am not happy that this character gets multi-class penalties, I opted to go for a flying race that can use medium load in flight and has a weapon familiarity for the footbow.

No spells, just some spell-likes for good measure, trapfinding, decent scouting abilities (alas, no HiPS), no reliance on precision damage at all.

Piggy Knowles

2013-11-25, 06:27 PM

Hey Piggy, I was curious, if you think a ranger/planar sheperd build with Flowing Time planar bubble is workable?

If you had a splitting force bow, you could seriously unload a barrage of damage. I know it's cheesy, but it would be neat I think.

Hey, just about anything is viable when you've got 10:1 action economy :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, yes, absolutely. I could see a pretty excellent wild shape ranger into Planar Shepherd as an archer. Also fun would be to pick a plane where arrow demons exist so that you can use Planar Shepherd's wild shape to dual wield bows. Not quite as broken as abusing Flowing Time, but still neat and possibly less likely to get you booted from a game.

Perhaps we could consider at least one regularish archer?

Human Fighter 20
(Don't forget to use the dead levels web enhancement)

PROGRESSION:

1. Human - Guerilla Scout (HoB), 1st - Weapon Focus (Longbow) (PHB), Fighter1 - Point Blank Shot (PHB)
2. Fighter2 - Rapid Shot (PHB)
3. 3rd - Precise Shot (PHB)
4. Fighter4 - Weapon Specialization (Longbow) (PHB)
5. Fighter6 - Ranged Pin (CW), 6th - Manyshot (PHB)
6. Fighter8 - Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (PHB II)
7. 9th - Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) (PHB)
8. Fighter10 - Penetrating Shot (PHB II)
9. 12th - Improved Rapid Shot (CW), Fighter12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow) (PHB)
10. Figher14 - Ready Shot (HoB)
11. 15th - Mounted Combat (PHB)
12. Fighter16 - Mounted Archery (PHB)
13. Fighter18 - Weapon Supremacy (Longbow) (PHB II), 18th - Improved Mounted Combat (CW)
14. Fighter20 - Improved Precise Shot (PHB)

Hey, nothing wrong with regular fighters. That's pretty solid for a fighter 20 archer. My reasons for not including it are twofold:

Like the Swift Hunter, there's just not that much for me to say about it that hasn't been said elsewhere in a ton of threads, so I've focused on other builds, and
It doesn't meet one of my main criteria for being a usable archer: it really runs out of options when its main schtick is shut down. Archery is one low-level spell away from being totally worthless, so I like to build things that will still find a way to contribute even when their bow isn't twanging.

I figure that I might as well toss this build stub that I found the other day when I was looking for a different build.

Nice. The only thing I might suggest is to shuffle in two levels of swordsage earlier in the build, so that you can benefit from Blood in the Water, Sudden Leap for quick re-positioning, and Wis to AC a little sooner, although that obviously delays how quickly you can nab splitting on your mind arrows.

This is the mundane-est non-entirely-mundane archer build I can come up with (besides the Fighter 20 you posted).

Human Ranger 19/Fighter 1

{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Trap Expert Ranger 1|Favored enemy, Wild empathy, Trapfinding|Point Blank Shot, Precise ShotH
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Rapid ShotB
3|+3|Sneak Attack / Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter 1|Sneak Attack +1d6, +2 Initiative, DEX to damage |Craven
4|+4|Ranger 3||EnduranceB
5|+5|Ranger 4|Shooting Star Substitution|
6|+6|Ranger 5|Favored enemy|Woodland Archer
7|+7|Ranger 6|Combat style|ManyshotB
8|+8|Ranger 7|Woodland Stride|
9|+9|Ranger 8||SotAO
10|+10|Ranger 9|Evasion|
11|+11|Ranger 10|Favored enemy|
12|+12|Ranger 11|Combat style|Darkstalker, Improved Precise ShotB
13|+13|Ranger 12||
14|+14|Ranger 13|Camouflage|
15|+15|Ranger 14||Improved Rapid Shot
16|+16|Ranger 15|Favored enemy|
17|+17|Ranger 16||
18|+18|Ranger 17|HiPS|OPEN
19|+19|Ranger 18||
20|+20|Ranger 19||[/table]

Full BAB
Trapfinding, Wild Empathy
Additional damage in the form of Sneak Attack + Craven and Dex to damage (all limited to 30 ft. though) and Favored Enemy
Almost full Ranger spellcasting improved by Shooting Star substitution level 4 + Sword of the Arcane order for extra options in and out of combat
Darkstalker, Camouflage, HiPS to help with scouting and sneak attacks

Open feat slot at level 18 for whatever the player feels like.

Far from the power level of a much more elaborate builds, but pretty straightforward to build and understand what it does.

Can also be turned into Mystic Ranger for a lot more more magical power without much additional effort.

And this is the pure mundane archer that should still be able to cover some more bases besides I stand still and shoot a lot of arrows at target X, but not much.

Raptoran Ranger 16/Fighter 4
ACFs: Trap Expert, Spiritual Connection, Spiritual Guide, Champion of the Wild (all Ranger), Resolute, Raptoran Substitution Level 1 (both Fighter)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Class|Features|Feats
1|+1|Ranger 1|Favored enemy, Spiritual Connection, Trapfinding|Point Blank Shot
2|+2|Ranger 2|Combat style|Rapid ShotB
3|+3|Ranger 3||EnduranceB, Weapon Focus (Footbow)
4|+4|Ranger 4|Spiritual Guide|Precise ShotB
5|+5|Fighter 1|Encumbered Flight|
6|+6|Fighter 2|Resolute|Hover, Woodland ArcherB
7|+7|Fighter 3||
8|+8|Fighter 4||Weapon Specialization (Footbow)
9|+9|Ranger 5|Favored enemy|Ranged Weapon Mastery
10|+10|Ranger 6|Combat style|ManyshotB
11|+11|Ranger 7|Woodland Stride|
12|+12|Ranger 8||Improved Rapid ShotB, Flyby Attack
13|+13|Ranger 9|Evasion|
14|+14|Ranger 10|Favored enemy|
15|+15|Ranger 11|Combat style|Darkstalker, Improved Precise ShotB, Far ShotB
16|+16|Ranger 12||
17|+17|Ranger 13|Camouflage|
18|+18|Ranger 14||OPEN
19|+19|Ranger 15|Favored enemy|
20|+20|Ranger 16||[/table]

While I am not happy that this character gets multi-class penalties, I opted to go for a flying race that can use medium load in flight and has a weapon familiarity for the footbow.

No spells, just some spell-likes for good measure, trapfinding, decent scouting abilities (alas, no HiPS), no reliance on precision damage at all.

Not too shabby. I may try to knock together a (mostly) mundane archer myself in a bit. I'll have to think on that one.....

Menzath

2013-11-26, 04:03 PM

still working on those two builds (getting the kinks out) and thought of two things (one not related to archery).

1. thanks to wizard fun of the spell blood wind (SPC) and lovely Gish classes as well as incarnum/arcane PrC. Why have we not made the Claw thrower?
since the spell lets it function as a melee attack at range a lot of spells can't counter act it as they would with regular range. And yeah might not be as good as full on wizard, but at this point it is all about flavor.

2. reposted #2 in it's own thread.

killem2

2013-11-26, 04:33 PM

Hey, just about anything is viable when you've got 10:1 action economy :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, yes, absolutely. I could see a pretty excellent wild shape ranger into Planar Shepherd as an archer. Also fun would be to pick a plane where arrow demons exist so that you can use Planar Shepherd's wild shape to dual wield bows. Not quite as broken as abusing Flowing Time, but still neat and possibly less likely to get you booted from a game.

Arrow Demons Exist in the Region of Dreams, And I can get them as they are only 10hd.

Now I just need to save up for two force bows to use in that form. :smallbiggrin:

Pickford

2013-11-26, 11:29 PM

Piggy_Knowles:

Hey, nothing wrong with regular fighters. That's pretty solid for a fighter 20 archer. My reasons for not including it are twofold:

1.Like the Swift Hunter, there's just not that much for me to say about it that hasn't been said elsewhere in a ton of threads, so I've focused on other builds, and
2.It doesn't meet one of my main criteria for being a usable archer: it really runs out of options when its main schtick is shut down. Archery is one low-level spell away from being totally worthless, so I like to build things that will still find a way to contribute even when their bow isn't twanging.

Fair enough. Hrm...

Ok, what if one substituted Jack of All Trades (1/2 a rank in all skills) or Able Learner (all skills are class skills) for Guerilla Scout and Insightful for say, Weapon Focus (Longbow) (it moves up to Fighter 2 with Improved Precise Shot getting cut), and take Open Minded (+5 skill points) at 9th (Penetrating Shot gets ditched entirely, I never like it anyway).

Now you have a Fighter whose UMD check should be >12 by 9th. DC 21 to cast a 1st level scroll, so 21 - 12 = 9, assume you've picked up at least a +1-+4 int mod makes that a DC 5 check...not bad really, and he's still an Archer who is capable of performing mounted combat and, if worse comes to worse pick up a sword and be 'ok' with it. He can also use wands.

By 20th he'd be able to cast up to 7th level spells from scrolls without failure and have minimal failure on 8th and 9th level scrolls.

How's that for improving the no archery utility? (Oh right, dead levels give him a +1 bonus to burst objects, so he'll have a +9 to that check, which means he can pretty much run through doors without pausing, and that's before any str bonus)

Piggy Knowles

2013-12-01, 12:24 PM

that is a great thread!

Piggy, i would love to see some extended blurbs on your characteres, something like what thethird did on his arashi.
It would help people who are not that profiicent in this system to understand why you designed the characters the way you did. And what makes them different from each other. Perhaps a "unique selling point"-section would be a good thing.

Sure, I'll give that a shot. It may take a couple of posts, but here goes:

THE ZEN CHAMELEON

BUILD STUB: Human, Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Planning, Trickery) 1/Soulknife 2/Ranger 2/Soulbow 2/Chameleon 10/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1

General Description
This is one of my favorite basic archer builds. Chameleon is a fantastic class for archers, mainly because of its versatile spellcasting ability. There is a lot of good spell support for archery, but much of it is scattered across several different classes. For example, ranger has a wide variety of fun swift action buffs, such as Find the Gap, Split Arrow, Arrow Mind, Swift Haste, etc. The cleric spell list has its usual excellent buffs including the much coveted Divine Power, Recitation, and more. Even druid has a few key buffs.

By entering Chameleon, you get access to all of these spells on your divine side, without even needing a spellbook. Even better, you get it on a solid chassis (medium BAB, decent skills, some other solid benefits), and can use the other side of your double aptitude to pick up more attack bonuses, more spellcasting, etc.

Since the Chameleon's most important spellcasting is based off of Wisdom, though, things can get a bit MAD. You'll need Dexterity for archery, Strength for damage, Wisdom for spells and Charisma for turn attempts to fuel DMM. Some of this is mitigated by spells and the Chameleon class itself, but it's still a problem. This build attempts to fix that problem by becoming Wis-focused, getting Wisdom to attack, damage, AC and bonus spells.

Level-by-level Progression
1. Cloistered Cleric1- Point Blank Shot, Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell

Though you open up like any cleric archer, this build will probably have a better Strength than Dexterity, so consider using a melee weapon for the lowest levels. With Knowledge Devotion and a longspear you can actually be a pretty solid secondary melee user, with skills and a few spells to fall back on.

2. Soulknife1- Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation)

This build takes the soulknife Mind's Eye ACF to replace Wild Talent with Hidden Talent, giving you one of the most versatile powers in the game, Minor Creation. Enjoy being the party toolkit. Poisoning the end of your longspear makes you a fun little save-or-suck machine for this level as well.

3. Ranger1- Track, Precise Shot

And you finally get access to composite longbows and Precise Shot, making you a decent archer for the first time even with a low Dex. You should also have the money to pick up some wands of low level ranger spells by now, such as Arrow Mind or Aspect of the Wolf. This level also gives you the Arcane Hunter ranger ACF, for some nice bonus damage against a pretty wide swath of enemies.

4. Ranger2- Rapid Shot

Rapid Shot without requiring Dex 13 is nice.

5. Soulknife2-

This level kind of sucks, and it really only exists to qualify for....

6. Soulbow1- Zen Archery, Persistent Spell

Soulbow! This is a huge bump for you. You pick up Zen Archery and your first level in Soulbow, which means now your attack and damage are based off your Wisdom, which should be your best stat.

7. Soulbow2-

For your +1 mind arrow enhancement, you've got a couple of good options. If you're restricted to the list in Complete Psionics, Seeking is pretty nice as a way to avoid cover, and Lucky is always a lifesaver. If you can expand it to any +1 enhancement, Magebane is a pretty excellent boost across the board. Don't forget that you can switch this enhancement out with eight hours of concentration, so if you know what kind of enemy you'll be facing, you can get the proper type of bane arrows.

8. Chameleon1-

You're going to want the divine focus right from the get-go. Second level spells off of any list means you can use all of those nice ranger spells without wands. Go to town!

9. Chameleon2- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

And now the build comes together. Though you're still only tossing out second level divine spells, you can persist them. Note that many low level ranger spells like Swift Haste and Find the Gap are persistable. You should now be a pretty excellent archer overall, with your excellent Wisdom focus, persisted ranger spells, and full suite of decent archery feats. Oh, yeah, and you get a floating bonus feat as well. That's probably going to be spent on Extra Turning or an item creation feat most days, but it's still super handy.

10. Chameleon3-

Mimic Class Feature can give you an extra turn attempt (or an extra turning pool, if you've got a DM with a permissive reading of Chameleon). That's probably your best bet, although using it as an on-demand form of Evasion can save your life. Also, third level spells means things like Arrow Storm (check with your DM to find out what happens when you persist it), Arrowsplit, Inspired Aim and more.

11. Chameleon4-

An extra +2 to a stat of your choice. Oh, hey, I bet that's going to be Wisdom!

12. Chameleon5- Extra Turning

You're now persisting Divine Power. Alongside Swift Haste that means five attacks per round.

13. Chameleon6-

Nothing really interesting happens at this level.

14. Chameleon7-

Double aptitude! Hurrah! If you've got a solid Int, then it's hard to beat going Arcane/Divine for your focus. Spend your divine spells on buffs and your arcane spells on utility, and you're golden. If not, Combat Focus gives a flat +4 attack and damage boost across the board, which is actually pretty good. Also, you get another +2 to your Wisdom, and 5th-level spells. All in all, a fantastic level.

15. Chameleon8- Travel Devotion

Travel Devotion could easily be swapped for more Extra Turning, but I like having the mobility option, especially on a build so reliant on making full attacks. You also get Rapid Refocus, which is useless to you until you get another use of Aptitude Focus.

16. Chameleon9-

6th-level spells. That is all, and that is enough.

17. Chameleon10-

And you finally get a third use of Aptitude Focus, making Rapid Refocus actually useful. I like keeping Combat Focus up (its bonus is now +6 to attack and damage), and switching to Arcane Focus for utility spells when not in combat to do some end of day scrying, etc.

18. Swordsage1- Woodland Archer

So now that we've got full Chameleon levels, what do we do? Well, let's pick up some maneuvers! You mostly want boosts and counters here - take a look at the maneuvers chosen for the White Raven archer to get a good idea of what maneuvers work with archery. Woodland Archer's an excellent boon for builds with a lot of volley attacks - one bad roll can actually ensure that the rest of your attacks all hit.

19. Swordsage2-

And now you get Wisdom to AC as well. It comes late, but it's handy. Also, you should have the pre-reqs now to pick up a decent 5th-level stance.

20. Warblade1-

This could instead be another level of swordsage, but I prefer warblade here. Why? Because if you time it properly, you can use this level to pick up both Dancing Mongoose (build up the Tiger Claw pre-reqs with your swordsage levels) and Iron Heart Surge.

Other Options:
Fitting in a level of Shiba Protector will dramatically improve attack and damage, since it means getting double Wisdom to each. It requires several throw-away feats, though, so unless your DM is OK with qualifying for PrCs with feat-granting items, I would probably pass.

SOUL DREAMER

BUILD STUB: Azurin, Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Trickery, Planning) 1/Incarnate 2/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/Earth Dreamer 5

General Description:
So, I've already mentioned why I feel Chameleon makes a great PrC for archers.

This takes things in a slightly different direction, focusing more on sneakiness and stalking than on raw damage. I really love builds that turn the terrain to their advantage, and so you'll see things like Phase Cloak or earth glide come up a lot on builds I make.

The general goal here is to nab incarnate for skill and ranged attack/damage boosting, to use Earth Dreamer's earth sight and earth glide to move around and underneath enemies, and to use DMM (Chain) along with Brilliant Energy Arrow to turn all my arrows Brilliant Energy as a swift action.

This build matures a little bit later, and I think that some of my other archery builds are all in all better choices, but it's still a fun take on the Chameleon archer. One nice thing to note is that the Chameleon's floating feat can be used for Open XXX Chakra feats, allowing you to get high level chakra binds despite only having two levels of Incarnate.

Level-by-Level Progression:

1. Cloistered Cleric1- Able Learner, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Knowledge Devotion

This is my standard opening for most archer Chameleons - good skills, Knowledge Devotion and some spells. Go ahead and pling away with a crossbow or sling alongside Knowledge Devotion.

2. Ranger1- Track

Switch to a composite longbow at level two when you gain proficiency.

3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, DMM (Persistent Spell)

You're already persisting spells by level 3, in addition to nabbing Rapid Shot. There aren't a ton of great options to persist at this level, but consider options such as Divine Favor, Bless, etc.

4. Incarnate1-

Sighting Gloves grant you a +2 damage bonus on your ranged attacks at this level, while Incarnate Avatar can grant you a +1 bonus to your attack rolls. Alternately, swap out Incarnate Avatar for a nice skill-booster.

5. Incarnate2-

You get the Crown meld here, which is a nice way to avoid concealment from fog and blur effects, or can be used for an undead buddy or immunity to charms.

6. Chameleon1- Earth Sense

As mentioned before, second level spells off the ranger list give you lots of options. You already have persist online, so you'll probably be persisting Swift Haste. Now with three attacks per round and damage bonuses from Sighting Gloves (up to +3) and Knowledge Devotion, plus other spells to boost your attacks, you're a pretty capable archer by level six.

7. Chameleon2-

The floating feat can give you some nice goodies, including Open Least Chakra to bind the Sighting Gloves to your hands chakra for Precise Shot without requiring the subpar PBS.

8. Earth Dreamer1-

Earth Dreamer gives some minor boosts and improves your cleric casting. If you can get a DM to approve advancing Chameleon casting instead, DO IT! Still, going up to third level cleric spells certainly won't hurt.

9. Earth Dreamer2- Open Least Chakra (Hands)

Now you can use your floating feat for higher level chakra binds, Bonus Essentia or Extra Turning, while still keeping Precise Shot from Sighting Gloves.

10. Earth Dreamer3-

Tremorsense is certainly a handy ability, although this is admittedly pretty short range.

11. Earth Dreamer4-

Earth Sight! It only lasts a few rounds at a time, but it's usable at will, so you should basically always have it up. Enjoy seeing through otherwise impenetrable obstacles. Don't forget that you will eventually be capable of casting your own Walls of Stone and the like, which you can see and move through but your opponents can't. Also, third level cleric spells come in a bit late but are nothing to sneeze at.

12. Earth Dreamer5- Chain Spell

And earth glide, the main reason we took Earth Dreamer. You're also nabbing Chain Spell, for DMM (Chain) fun. Your party will love you, and you can use the ranger spells that target a single arrow to now target all of your arrows.

13. Chameleon3-

We move back into Chameleon and nab third level spells from any list.

14. Chameleon4-

The ability boon is less insane for you than for the Wisdom-focused Zen Chameleon, but it's still pretty handy.

15. Chameleon5- DMM (Chain Spell)

DMM (Chain)! In many ways I prefer chaining to persisting. Again, it has special uses for you, since you have access to several neat low level spells that ordinarily only target a single arrow. Also, you should now have Divine Power persisted.

16. Chameleon6-

With Divine Power, Swift Haste and Rapid Shot you're looking at six attacks per round, or twelve with a Splitting bow. You can also use Arrowsplit for an addition 1d4+1 attacks, or Cloud of Knives for an extra. All of these benefit from your soulmeld boosts.

17. Chameleon7-

Double Aptitude, an ability boost and fifth level spells is pretty sweet.

18. Chameleon8- Extra Turning

Extra Turning means an additional use of DMM (Chain). Between all the scouting and buffing, your party should love you.

19. Chameleon9-

Sixth-level spells off any list. What more is there to say?

20. Chameleon10-

Rapid Refocus gains purpose yet again, and your ability boost goes up to +6.

Other Options:
If you'd rather focus on buffing and get your archery up to speed first, consider moving the Earth Dreamer levels to the back of the build and complete Chameleon first. If that's the case, bump Earth Sense back to 15 and every other feat earlier.

Is that the sort of thing you meant? I'll edit more in as I write them up.

killem2

2013-12-08, 11:12 AM

Is it possible to pay for the Energy Bow magical abilites on another bow?

Like my fellow party member uses a footbow, can it be changed into an energy bow?

Actually I think I'll ask this is the FAQ

Schizek

2013-12-08, 01:22 PM

In any case, three of my archery builds currently involve the Chameleon. Though the builds look similar from the outset, they've got some differences. One is an arcane archer focused on single debuffing shots, one is a Wis-centric zen archer, and one focuses on Sighting Gloves for bonus damage.

Power in Chameleon build start to kick off from >8 lvl where other pure casters are beasts already. On the other hand noncaster archers will be more successful on low lvls (<5) but after 10 lvl normal archery is already suboptimal choice.

If you want to have really good "archer" type go for evoker/conjuration wizards/sorcerers/psions using a lot metamagic. Damage and utility will be much better from some point.

Example:
Flying invisible- Focused Conjurer Wizard 10:(permanent see invisibility)

Using 4x Arcane Thesis (Orb of Force) with Metamagic: invisible,empower
4 times 15k6= 210 from 200 feet range.

You cannot hear him or find where he is or hide against him. If he cast Dimension Anchor with Invisible Spell you wont even know that you cannot escape.

broodax

2014-01-10, 03:54 PM

I really like the Factotum archer, but I have a couple of questions. Why no knowledge devotion? That seems like it'd be a no brainer.

Also, how does it qualify for Mindbender? It requires Caster Level 5 for your arcane spells or spell like abilities, but you seem to only have 3 Factotum levels when you take it.

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-10, 04:13 PM

I really like the Factotum archer, but I have a couple of questions. Why no knowledge devotion? That seems like it'd be a no brainer.

It would be great, but the build is pretty tight on feats. That said, Master of Poisons could be dropped for it if you wanted. Archers don't need the swift action poisoning MoP provides the way melee characters do. Still, the chance of poisoning yourself isn't negligible at low levels, so I might keep it to start and retrain it out for Knowledge Devotion down the road, when you nab poison resistance or immunity via items.

Also, how does it qualify for Mindbender? It requires Caster Level 5 for your arcane spells or spell like abilities, but you seem to only have 3 Factotum levels when you take it.

Whoops :smallredface: Sorry, missed that. Switch the rogue levels to occur at levels 7 and 8, front load the factotum levels, and it should work fine. I'll adjust the build accordingly when I get home to a real computer.

broodax

2014-01-10, 04:33 PM

One more question :-)

What is giving this build immunity to surprise and flat-footedness?

When you're adjusting levels, double check the BAB requirement for Manyshot, too. I think you might need one more Warblade level earlier, and therefor you'll have to move the rogue levels to 10-11...

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-10, 05:52 PM

One more question :-)

What is giving this build immunity to surprise and flat-footedness?

Mark of Stars, from Dragonmarked. It requires a Siberys mark, but it gives you complete immunity to surprise or being flat-footed, and gives you a boost to your AC and Reflex saves as well. It's one of my favorite feats, although the Siberys requirement means it's hard to fit on many builds.

When you're adjusting levels, double check the BAB requirement for Manyshot, too. I think you might need one more Warblade level earlier, and therefor you'll have to move the rogue levels to 10-11...

You're right - the build is a bit of a house of cards with feat timing and BAB. Simply moving warblade earlier won't work either. That said, there are workarounds.

The simplest and probably best workaround is to simply replace rogue with fighter. The loss of skill points hurt, but not as much as you'd think - you're Int-focused and you've got a pretty solid skill base from all your other classes. Factotum 5/Mindbender 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 1 works fine as far as feat timing and BAB.

If flaws are on the table, ditch feat rogue or fighter altogether. Instead, take five more levels of warblade and ditch uncanny trickster. That gives you an end result of Factotum 8/Warblade 8/Heir of Siberys 3/Mindbender 1, which means 8th-level maneuvers, and is nice and clean to boot.

broodax

2014-01-10, 06:45 PM

I do actually have access to flaws, so I was sort of considering that. Siberys and dragonmarks are super confusing to me though (how are you even taking that feat? It's not on the list of allowed HoS bonus feats that I see...).

I was also thinking, man it's giving up a lot just for Mindsight (which is amazing, granted) and Mindblank... I'm half convinced I should just go straight Factotum/Warblade and try to accomplish that stuff with magic items.

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-10, 06:49 PM

Heir of Siberys has two pools of bonus feats. There's the bonus feat you get at level 1, which must come from the specific list. Then at levels two and three, you can either progress spellcasting or gain a bonus feat, which can be ANY feat you qualify for:

If the character has no spellcasting classes, he gains a bonus feat of his choice instead. He must meet the prerequisites of a feat to select it.

Factotum, despite having a limited ability to cast spells, is not actually a spellcasting class, and so you can select any bonus feat that you qualify for instead.

For more info on dragonmarks, I recommend checking out the handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1072.0), or if you have any specific questions about them, feel free to ask.

Seerow

2014-01-10, 08:52 PM

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-10, 09:01 PM

Question on the totemist build, because I'm not particularly familiar with Totemist:

The quill launcher thing to get lots of attacks as a standard action, is that actually a natural attack (and thus compatible with feats like Improved Natural Attack), or is what you get from your melds all you can use there?

Funny you should ask....

Basically, it exists in a weird limbo. It should be a natural attack, but it's never actually called out as such. If it DOES count as a natural attack, then Shneekey has a pretty good build boosting it:

Manticore Shotgun

Swordsage1/Totemist6/Umbral Disciple 3/Swordsage1/Totemist9

This build is designed to be a hit and run build which gets a lot of benefit from the Manticore Belt in the Totem slot.

This build is dependent on the somewhat iffy rules interpretation that the Spines from the Manticore Belt are considered Natural Attacks. If your GM disagrees with this rules interpretation, much of the damage from this build vanishes, so make sure to verify this with your GM before starting.

In effect, Swordsage gives some survivability and the skills necessary to qualify for Umbral Disciple, which gives HiPS and 20% concealment always on.

Now then, let's talk about the Shadow Mantle. As written, it sucks. Darkness does NOT break Line of Sight, as it assumes (the author probably was having a flashback to AD&D 2nd ed) so, as written, it stinks. However, Umbral Disciple allows you HiPS, which means you can make a Hide check within your magical darkness, and making it function as it was probably intended to.

Right, now let's talk about the feat Double Chakra. We're actually wanting this one twice, once for the Shoulder chakra, and once for the Totem chakra. Why? Totem Avatar.

Shoulder bind increases size of natural attacks by one step. Now increase that further with Morale bonus to damage from the Totem bind.

Note: Heart of Fire would require an additional feat blown on Double Chakra for Waist, however it's 1d4 Fire damage when bound to Totem. Now, Fire damage is the single most commonly resisted elemental flavor, but it might be a viable alternative to binding Totem Avatar to Totem chakra.

The next soulmeld we will bind requires a feat for Shape Soulmeld, it's the Sighting Gloves. Insight Damage with ranged weapons that improves per essentia, then the free bind (from the feat) gives you Precise Shot.

We can also take the feat Improved Natural Attack (Spines) for another size boost.

Now we are looking at 2 size increases (one from the feat, one from Totem Avatar's Shoulder bind), Insight damage bonus from Sighting Gloves, either Morale bonus to damage from Totem Avatar or bonus d4's of damage from Heart of Fire. Plus since we're running around unable to be seen thanks to HiPS + Shadow Mantle, we're probably going to be able to add +1d6 Sneak Attack from Umbral Disciple and another +2d6 from Assassin's Stance. So, let's see what we've got

Now shape (but not bind) Dread Carapace for more damage, albeit at a penalty to attack. Still, you should be hitting Flat-Footed most of the time, so it shouldn't be a big problem. And if you have a problem hitting, dump essentia elsewhere to trade back attack for damage as a Swift action.

Now we need more Standard Actions. Well, how badly you tweak this depends on your allergy to cheese, and is best covered in its own guide.

You've got a +2 Soulmeld Capacity to the Totem chakra from your class, so you've got 7 shots. Each one is doing 2d6+(1+essentia) Insight bonus from gloves + (1+essentia) Morale from Totem Avatar +(1+essentia) untyped from Dread Carapace + 3d6 Sneak Attack (situationally immune)+ 1/2 Str mod. To get maximum damage output, find a way to significantly increase Essentia.

By RAW, it doesn't actually count as a natural attack, so it won't increase in size or get boosts from things that boost natural attacks. But that's even stupider than the Rules Compendium volley rules - it's obviously a natural attack, but MoI was poorly edited and never properly errata'd.

EDIT: It's worth noting that he's wrong about the Shadow Mantle in his description, though. As written, it explicitly says that enemies cannot see you, so it's a good bit better than standard darkness (which only provides 20% concealment).

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-12, 12:58 PM

OK, I've updated my factotum archer in the OP with the changes discussed in the past few posts.

I'm working on a ranger 20 build just for fun, and it's turning out pretty solid, but damage is a good bit lower than I like to see. A level dip will improve damage considerably, but dangit, I was really excited to go with ranger 20!

I'll probably have everything fine tuned and post the build in the next couple of days.

(Also, because I'm obsessed with Chameleon, I put together YET ANOTHER ranged Chameleon build, this one Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 3/Thug Fighter 1/Chameleon 10/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5... but I may hold off on posting it, since this thread is rapidly becoming more of a thread about ranged Chameleons than it is about archers.)

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-18, 10:11 AM

Alright, I couldn't get my Shooting Star ranger 20 build that I had promised to come together. I have a few workable build stubs, but none of them have quite enough oomph. In case anyone wants to mess around with the build, here was the basic concept:

Play a raptoran. This gives you access to the footbow (required for this build), and also makes you one feat away from having flight with good enough maneuverability to take 5' steps while flying (also required).
Take the feats Improved Flight and Evasive Reflexes.
Wield a footbow that you fire with one hand (footbows can be fired this way at no penalty), and in your free hand, hold a spinning sword or kusari-gama. You don't need to be proficient in it, because you'll never be attacking with it - you basically just want the reach so that you have a wider threatened area.
Cast the spells Snowsight and Obscuring Snow each day. Each casting lasts hours per level.

The net result is that you will be flying in a terrible snowstorm, completely invisible to all enemies without blindsight, but able to see your own targets just fine. Fire on them. They can't fire back with ranged attacks, because they don't have line of sight to you. They can't fire back with area spells, because you have evasion. If they try to fly to you, they'll pass through your threatened area (10' with a spinning sword/kusari-gama, or 20' if you nab enlarge via potion or SotAO), allowing you to 5' step away from them and remain out of sight. They can only see you if they're actually adjacent.

It was a cool concept, and I might try to make it work again later, but there was just not sufficient damage to make the arrows anything more than an annoyance. Ranger 18/Swordsage 2 was slightly better, with Assassin's Stance and Craven, but it relied too heavily on precision damage and still was not putting out numbers I was happy with.

That being said, messing around with the concept did give me an entirely NEW concept. Here it is:

Changeling, Ranger 3/Totemist 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Warshaper 4/Crusader 8
1. Ranger1- Point Blank Shot, Track
2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
3. Totemist1- Precise Shot
4. Totemist2-
5. Ranger3-
6. Umbral Disciple1- Darkstalker
7. Umbral Disciple2-
8. Umbral Disciple3-
9. Crusader1- Evasive Reflexes
Bolstering Voice (s), Lion’s Roar, White Raven Tactics, Crusader’s Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Mountain Hammer
10. Crusader2-
Thicket of Blades (s)
11. Warshaper1-
12. Warshaper2- Craven
13. Warshaper3-
14. Warshaper4-
15. Crusader3- Robilar’s Gambit
Covering Strike
16. Crusader4-
17. Crusader5-
Order Forged From Chaos
18. Crusader6- Combat Reflexes
Crusader’s Strike -> Rallying Strike
19. Crusader7-
Castigating Strike
20. Crusader8-
Aura of Perfect Order (s)

If you can get your hands on Serpent Armor, drop Combat Reflexes for Extra Granted Maneuver.

This one relies on a somewhat similar trick, but instead is taking advantage of off-turn movement and Hide in Plain Sight as a way to hide.

Hiding doesn't actually have an action - it is part of your movement. You need cover or concealment to hide, and you can't be observed. Umbral Disciple grants you concealment and allows you to hide even while being observed.

So, this build works as a somewhat standard ranged build, but with lots of party-buffing crusader maneuvers. Your default stance is Thicket of Blades, and you threaten a 10' area thanks to natural weapons plus improved reach from Warshaper. You can attack and/or buff your party as you'd like, especially hitting folks with things like Covering Strike or Defensive Rebuke to force enemies to focus on you. However, when they approach you and go through your threatened area, you 5' step away into hiding thanks to Evasive Reflexes and Umbral Disciple. The basic idea is to be a ranged leader who appears out of hiding to rally the party and fire off ranged shots, but when anyone tries to counter-attack, you disappear before their very eyes.

Robilar's Gambit gives you yet more AoO opportunities, so that even if someone manages to get close to you without triggering an AoO (such as via teleportation or flight) and attacks, you can STILL Evasive Reflexes away into hiding.

Any thoughts on the new build idea? Or on how to make the abandoned build idea work? (As always, a persist-buffing chameleon could make the abandoned build idea work just fine, but that can be accomplished with any of my existing chameleon builds by adding in the Evasive Reflexes feat somewhere - I didn't want to add yet another chameleon build to the thread unless it really did something unique!)

Talionis

2014-01-21, 03:37 PM

How good is Chameleon for archers if your DM doesn't allow DMM?

Draz74

2014-01-21, 03:54 PM

Any thoughts on the new build idea?

I like it! :smallsmile: Although in practice, I suspect a lot of the time it would end up just wading into the thick of combat rather than using its Evasive Reflexes trick. Because even though it's built to avoid being attacked, it has classes that will make it relatively resilient compared to many allies. (I suppose it could dump Constitution ... but then its Totemist levels would be wasted.)

Also, keep in mind that many melee opponents are likely to have enough reach that they can approach close enough to attack without moving out of any threatened squares.

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-21, 03:57 PM

How good is Chameleon for archers if your DM doesn't allow DMM?

Still pretty good, honestly. No DMM hurts, but not as badly as you might think.

In particular, there are a lot of ranger and assassin spells that are good for archers and are only swift actions. You get a significantly better spellcasting progression than either class, a CL of 20 before items, and also access to cleric staples like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon for long term buffing.

The swift action spells in particular are even better if you have access to wands, or don't mind crafting them yourself. Pick up Craft Wand with your floating feat, and craft wands of the swift action spells you're most likely to spam every combat. An elvencraft longbow can have three wand chambers, so you can pick and choose as you'd like.

Some nice spells that are swift or immediate action spells include...

Arrow Mind
Arrow Storm
Arrowsplit
Bloodfreeze Arrow
Brilliant Energy Arrow
Celerity
Exacting Shot
Golem Strike
Grave Strike
Guided Shot
Hunter's Eye
Swift Haste
Shadow Arrow
Sniper's Shot
Spellslayer Arrow
Sure Strike
Vine Strike

...and as for buffs that last all day, you've got the Heart of XXX line, GMW, Magic Vestment, Anticipate Teleportation, Obscuring Snow/Snowsight, Overland Flight and more. That's all without worrying about any sort of metamagic - they'll last 20 hours or more by level 15.

Zombulian

2014-01-21, 05:25 PM

Have you ever considered doing an Artificer based Archery build? They have tons of great self buffs and access to almost the same volume of spells that make the Chameleon so good.

I'm actually surprised you don't have one up here yet, as I remember you being the one to convert me to the power of infusions and self buffing with an Artificer.

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-21, 05:40 PM

I've messed around with it, but I haven't come up with anything particularly unique or interesting. Sort of my same issue with making a Swift Hunter build - I'm not failing to include one because I don't like Swift Hunter, but because I haven't come up with my own take on it.

But yeah, artificers make great archers. You don't even really need to do much beyond building a solid artificer, since proper weapon enhancements and spells sub in for most feats. The only feats you really need to take beyond standard artificer stuff are either PBS and Precise Shot or Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves) and Open Least Chakra, because by RAW the precise weapon property doesn't actually give you the Precise Shot feat, which means you can't benefit from Splitting.

Zombulian

2014-01-21, 06:06 PM

Irk

2014-01-21, 06:34 PM

Just and idea, but what if you made a standard factotum many shot archer that used maximize spell and chain spell with DMM on arrow storm?

A_S

2014-01-22, 02:50 PM

Just and idea, but what if you made a standard factotum many shot archer that used maximize spell and chain spell with DMM on arrow storm?
I don't think any of this stuff works together...
Manyshot is a Standard action, using Arrow Storm's attack is a special kind of Full-Round action that you get access to after casting the spell. You can't use both of them at once.
Maximize Spell won't work on Arrow Storm, because the damage you deal isn't an effect of the spell (note that it's not part of the spell's description at all), it's an effect of the special attack you make after casting the spell.
Chain Spell won't work with Arrow Storm, because it only works on spells with range greater than Touch, and Arrow Storm's range is Personal (it's a self-buff that gives you access to a new kind of action for one round).
Factotum can't be used to let you attack with Arrow Storm more than once per round, because it grants bonus Standard actions, and as mentioned above, attacking with Arrow Storm is a Full-Round action.
If you try and use DMM for a spell that you have to recast every round in a fight, you're going to run out of Turn Undead uses very quickly.

Irk

2014-01-22, 07:06 PM

I don't think any of this stuff works together...
Manyshot is a Standard action, using Arrow Storm's attack is a special kind of Full-Round action that you get access to after casting the spell. You can't use both of them at once.
Maximize Spell won't work on Arrow Storm, because the damage you deal isn't an effect of the spell (note that it's not part of the spell's description at all), it's an effect of the special attack you make after casting the spell.
Chain Spell won't work with Arrow Storm, because it only works on spells with range greater than Touch, and Arrow Storm's range is Personal (it's a self-buff that gives you access to a new kind of action for one round).
Factotum can't be used to let you attack with Arrow Storm more than once per round, because it grants bonus Standard actions, and as mentioned above, attacking with Arrow Storm is a Full-Round action.
If you try and use DMM for a spell that you have to recast every round in a fight, you're going to run out of Turn Undead uses very quickly.

Sorry, I meant arrow split. As for the DMM, instead do psionic meditation, psycarnum infusion and midnight metamagic as well as arcane thesis. I should have re read that before I posted, but I meant arrow split, in which case it would work. Chain maximize arrow split on all the arrows you shoot.

I'd just do invisible fist martial monk 2/Factotum 8/Spellcaster X. use martial monk to grab greater many shot and shot on the run without prerequisites.

Talionis

2014-01-23, 03:00 PM

Still pretty good, honestly. No DMM hurts, but not as badly as you might think.

In particular, there are a lot of ranger and assassin spells that are good for archers and are only swift actions. You get a significantly better spellcasting progression than either class, a CL of 20 before items, and also access to cleric staples like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon for long term buffing.

The swift action spells in particular are even better if you have access to wands, or don't mind crafting them yourself. Pick up Craft Wand with your floating feat, and craft wands of the swift action spells you're most likely to spam every combat. An elvencraft longbow can have three wand chambers, so you can pick and choose as you'd like.

Some nice spells that are swift or immediate action spells include...

Arrow Mind
Arrow Storm
Arrowsplit
Bloodfreeze Arrow
Brilliant Energy Arrow
Celerity
Exacting Shot
Golem Strike
Grave Strike
Guided Shot
Hunter's Eye
Swift Haste
Shadow Arrow
Sniper's Shot
Spellslayer Arrow
Sure Strike
Vine Strike

...and as for buffs that last all day, you've got the Heart of XXX line, GMW, Magic Vestment, Anticipate Teleportation, Obscuring Snow/Snowsight, Overland Flight and more. That's all without worrying about any sort of metamagic - they'll last 20 hours or more by level 15.

This list is a huge help. You might want to include it in the initial write up. Thank You!

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-23, 05:21 PM

I like it! :smallsmile: Although in practice, I suspect a lot of the time it would end up just wading into the thick of combat rather than using its Evasive Reflexes trick. Because even though it's built to avoid being attacked, it has classes that will make it relatively resilient compared to many allies. (I suppose it could dump Constitution ... but then its Totemist levels would be wasted.)

Also, keep in mind that many melee opponents are likely to have enough reach that they can approach close enough to attack without moving out of any threatened squares.

Glad you liked it! I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It's not as high damage as some builds, especially those immune to sneak attacks, but it has enough other things to do that I'm not as worried. And personally, I think its resiliency compared to most archery builds is one if its selling points.

Regarding reach weapons, they were one of my biggest reasons for adding on Robilar's Gambit. That gives you a way of still doing your off-turn hiding even against enemies with reach. If you don't mind going evil, you could also pick up Willing Deformity and Deformity (tall) via Elder Evil devotion for 15' reach.

This list is a huge help. You might want to include it in the initial write up. Thank You!

No problem! I really like the Chameleon, and find it particularly good for archers. I've been thinking of redesigning the layout of the first couple of posts anyhow, so maybe when I do I'll include this.

Sorry, I meant arrow split. As for the DMM, instead do psionic meditation, psycarnum infusion and midnight metamagic as well as arcane thesis. I should have re read that before I posted, but I meant arrow split, in which case it would work. Chain maximize arrow split on all the arrows you shoot.

I'd just do invisible fist martial monk 2/Factotum 8/Spellcaster X. use martial monk to grab greater many shot and shot on the run without prerequisites.

Arrow Split makes more sense. If martial monk is allowed, I'd just take one level to nab Greater Manyshot, use the remaining level to dip cloistered cleric for DMM and Knowledge Devotion, and go ten levels of Chameleon for sixth level spells. Still, even with Chain Spell, you will burn through your arrows with a couple of Greater Manyshots.

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-09, 10:12 AM

Alright, I've been trying to think of a way to make the strafing manticore work for a while, but it has been tough. That said, last night I got an inspiration.

Tempest Stormwind mentioned a long time ago that Manticore Belt was nice alongside Ranged Pin, since it gives you lots of pin attempts as a standard action. That said, I've never really been able to get a ranged pin build to work, because while it's a nice debuff, you give up your damage on the pin attempt.

BUT! There are a couple of effects that deal damage on any successful grapple check. Ranged Pin explicitly begins with a grapple check - it's only after the grapple check succeeds that it uses its own rules. Relevant to this conversation, we've got the Kraken Mantle's arms bind, which lets you deal 1d8+Str damage on any successful grapple check, and Black Blood Cultist's savage grapple, which automatically deals damage from ALL of your natural weapons on a successful grapple.

So, I've been thinking of how to combine these, and this is what I came up with:

Silverbrow Human, Barbarian 1/Totemist 11/Black Blood Cultist 8

1. Totemist1- Track, Point Blank Shot
2. Totemist2-
3. Barbarian1- Precise Shot
4. Totemist3-
5. Totemist4-
6. Totemist5- Improved Unarmed Strike
7. Black Blood Cultist1-
8. Black Blood Cultist2- Improved Grapple
9. Black Blood Cultist3- Ranged Pin
10. Black Blood Cultist4-
11. Black Blood Cultist5-
12. Black Blood Cultist6- Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
13. Black Blood Cultist7-
14. Black Blood Cultist8-
15. Totemist6- Bonus Essentia
16. Totemist7-
17. Totemist8-
18. Totemist9- Double Chakra (Arms)
19. Totemist10-
20. Totemist11-

(Azurin is a reasonable alternative if multiclassing penalties aren't enforced - you won't have access to the draconic melds, but an extra point of essentia certainly won't hurt.)

With ESC and an incarnum focus item, you can fire off seven shots from your manticore belt. Make all seven a Ranged Pin attempt. With Girallon Arms, Improved Grapple and eventually Kraken Mantle, you should have a pretty solid chance of succeeding on many of those attempts. Each successful grapple deals damage equal to ALL of your natural weapons, and after level 18, an additional 1d8+Str points of constricting damage. Plus, the enemy has to spend a standard action to pull or cut themselves free.

As for what to pin the enemy to, just make sure you have access to flight, and pin them to the ground.

It's still not perfect, and I might tweak the build a bit, but what do you think? Is this enough to make a RAW-legal ranged totemist worthwhile?

Draz74

2014-02-09, 12:49 PM

Is this enough to make a RAW-legal ranged totemist worthwhile?

Well, RAW still doesn't say anything about Manticore Brelt spines being natural weapons, which interferes with Savage Grapple and a number of buffs/items that would be desirable.

But if you're still just handwaving that part ... yeah, this build is pretty sweet, and very creative. :smallsmile:

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-09, 12:56 PM

Well, RAW still doesn't say anything about Manticore Brelt spines being natural weapons, which interferes with Savage Grapple and a number of buffs/items that would be desirable.

But if you're still just handwaving that part ... yeah, this build is pretty sweet, and very creative. :smallsmile:

Actually, that's the beauty of it - it doesn't require you to treat the manticore belt's spine as natural weapons. Basically, it works like this:

Get a decently high grapple modifier and a bunch of natural weapons (totemists are great at both things, plus you get two claws and a bite from Black Blood Cultist).
Fire a volley of seven manticore belt spines, using each spine attack as a Ranged Pin attempt.
Each successful grapple check from your ranged pin automatically deals damage to the enemy as though you had attacked the with all of your natural weapons, which includes things like Dread Carapace and Imp Natural Attack damage and rending damage from Black Blood Cultist, plus an additional 1d8+Str from Kraken Mantle.

So, as a standard action ranged attack, you could theoretically deal damage as though you had auto-hit with all of your many natural weapons seven times over. No rule-bending is required for this - you're not required to treat the manticore belt volley as a natural attack to work, and it's not precision damage, so the volley rules don't apply.

Seerow

2014-02-09, 01:03 PM

So with all of your melds shaped, what do your numbers end up looking like on that build? What sort of grapple mod are you actually looking at? How many natural attacks?

It sounds pretty great in theory, but it really depends a lot on what it actually ends up with.

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-09, 03:38 PM

I haven't crunched the numbers, but going off the top of my head, assuming the silverbrow human version, we could go with something like...

6 soulmelds, 10 essentia, 3 chakra binds

Manticore Belt (waist) BOUND to totem chakra
Kraken Belt (arms) BOUND
Girallon Arms (arms)
Dread Carapace (heart)
Dragon Tail (feet)
Totem Avatar (shoulders) BOUND

Let's assume we want to focus on our grapple checks, so for essentia we have 7 points in Manticore Belt (4 +1 totem bind +1 ESC +1 incarnum focus), and 3 points in girallon arms.

Our grapple checks are +29 before Strength. Let's be conservative and assume a starting strength of just 14, boosted with items as much as possible but NOT with levels (after all, we'll need to keep Con/Dex up as well). That means a strength of 24, which rage brings up to 28. So now we're at +38 grapple. With gloves of titan's grip, we're up to +46. Considering that a titan's grapple is +48, that means we're doing alright - especially because we'll have seven attempts at grappling each round.

For natural attacks, our soulmelds give us a tail attack for 1d8+Str (increased to 2d6+Str thanks to Totem Avatar). We also get +1 damage on each natural weapon other than bites, and +2 on the bites, from dread carapace.

We also get, from Black Blood Cultist, the following:

Two 1d8 claws (improved to 2d6 apiece thanks to Totem Avatar's bind)
One 1d6 bite (improved to 1d8 thanks to Totem Avatar's bind)
Rend attack that deals double claw damage

So, putting it all together, we get seven attempts at a grapple with a +46 modifier. Each successful grapple deals...

2d6+10 (claw 1)
2d6+10 (claw 2)
2d6+10 (tail)
1d8+6 (bite)
1d8+9 (kraken mantle)
4d6+19 (rend)

That's 10d6+2d8+64, for an average of 108 points of damage per successful grapple check. That's WITHOUT an amulet of mighty fists, or any additional natural attacks from items, or buffs from your party, or anything else. So theoretically, if all 7 spines hit, you could be talking about averaging 756 points of damage.

This is just spitballing - I'd have to mess around with it to see if there's a more ideal soulmeld layout. I'm also probably missing some obvious way of eking out a bit more damage. If you're up against something that doesn't need a +46 grapple check, you can instead feed those 3 points of essentia into Dread Carapace. That drops your grapple down to +40, but adds on 18 points of damage per successful grapple.

Plus, there's still the debuff of having to remove the spines to move. It's only a DC 15 Strength or Escape Artist check, which isn't much, but it takes a standard action to do so.

Seerow

2014-02-09, 03:46 PM

Plus, there's still the debuff of having to remove the spines to move. It's only a DC 15 Strength or Escape Artist check, which isn't much, but it takes a standard action to do so.

Is that per spine? If so that's pretty nasty. One round, even if you don't kill them with your 700+ damage, will effectively take the enemy out of the fight for 7 rounds. Even if not, that's still pretty awesome.

Biggest issue I'm seeing is how long it takes to come online. Like your damage just explodes at level 16 when you get that last level of BBC, before that you're competent, but pretty standard, possibly even weak for your level. After that you just kill people effortlessly. It's a pretty big dynamic shift.

Edit: Also it looks like you have a rend from both Girallon Arms (Arms chakra bind) and from BBC (6th level Feral Rage). It looks like you only counted damage from one, do they not both count? If not, why not bind something different instead of Girallon Arms?

Spuddles

2014-02-09, 03:47 PM

Is weapon apritude off tablw?

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-09, 04:05 PM

Is that per spine? If so that's pretty nasty. One round, even if you don't kill them with your 700+ damage, will effectively take the enemy out of the fight for 7 rounds. Even if not, that's still pretty awesome.

Biggest issue I'm seeing is how long it takes to come online. Like your damage just explodes at level 16 when you get that last level of BBC, before that you're competent, but pretty standard, possibly even weak for your level. After that you just kill people effortlessly. It's a pretty big dynamic shift.

Edit: Also it looks like you have a rend from both Girallon Arms (Arms chakra bind) and from BBC (6th level Feral Rage). It looks like you only counted damage from one, do they not both count? If not, why not bind something different instead of Girallon Arms?

The girallon arms aren't bound, just shaped - they're mostly there for the sizable bonus they grant to my grapple checks. I decided to play it safe and bind the totem avatar instead, which increases damage on all natural attacks as though I'd gone up in size, because while technically nothing in the rules says you can't rend twice if you get rend from two different places, it seems a bit silly to me.

As for whether multiple pins require multiple standard actions to escape, your guess is as good as mine. Ranged Pin never specifies. I would probably assume the conservative option and say it only takes one standard action, but obviously the build gets much stronger if it's a standard action per spine.

Regarding when the build comes online... yeah, that is admittedly unfortunate. (Although it really comes online at level 14, not level 16, with another big damage boost at level 18 when you can bind Totem Avatar and Kraken Mantle). Still, you can have a pretty decent character before then. Until level 14, it probably makes sense to open things up with a manticore volley, using Ranged Pin to secure enemies in place. Then approach them in melee and tear their face to pieces with your raging, clawing, biting and grappling self. Luckily, totemist is front-loaded enough that you do fairly well at the low levels, and Black Blood Cultist is still a pretty solid melee prestige class even before you get savage grapple online.

In addition, the build would also be a fantastic scout. You get scent from BBC, which is especially nice alongside Track, and a side effect of the manticore belt is that each essentia invested also gives you a +2 untyped bonus to Spot.

123456789blaaa

2014-02-12, 06:30 PM

Seerow

2014-02-12, 06:31 PM

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-12, 06:42 PM

...holy crap. What an ingenious use of Ranged Pin. I'm not usually a fan of trading versatility for power (or of investing a huge chunk of levels in a mostly inferior class) but I think this more than enough to justify it. IRRC the average HP for a CR20 enemy is around 410.

What the heck does this trick look like IC though? I mean, the fluff for Savage Grapple implies that you're biting and clawing and such while wrestling with the opponent. The spines of the Manticore Belt are at range though :smallconfused:

I'm sure whatever it looks like is probably pretty silly - it's a silly idea, and probably wouldn't be allowed by most DMs :smalltongue:

When I brought this up on the Chaingun Porcupine thread on the WotC boards, Andarious said he pictured the kraken mantle as adding little tentacles to each spine, which is pretty cool. As far as savage grapple, though... the best I can think of is some variation of razor wind (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RazorWind).

Phelix-Mu

2014-02-12, 10:11 PM

This, as I may have said several months ago, is my favorite of all the build threads I've read so far. A quality work, and on a topic that is close to my fantasy heart. I will be referring heavily to this in my upcoming homebrew archer project, designed to allow a more efficient style of archery, as opposed to the easier to pull-off machine gun style.

Anyway, congrats on a nice series of builds and a great resource, Piggy. I'm glad to see it's still generating traffic.

killem2

2014-02-13, 10:11 AM

I almost created a dual wielding thri-kreen, but I could not figure out the best path for success. If I were to remake this character, and I just wanted to be great at shooting and hitting, what would be the best?

Talionis

2014-02-13, 04:30 PM

I'm not sure I personally have any really great Master Thrower or Bloodstorm Blade builds, but since they are ranged attackers you might want to include them in your guide if you have someone who is more of an expert. I know a lot of the spells you reference only target bolts and arrows, but I thought you might have some particularly good incites into those kinds of builds.

killem2

2014-02-14, 11:17 AM

Zombulian

2014-02-14, 12:08 PM

killem2

2014-02-14, 12:21 PM

I assume that you use a base Outsider race like Neraphimm for metamorphing. And if the new form you took can wear your armor and wield your weapons, you don't lose it.

DOH! of course. I completely wiffed on that one haha.

Piggy Knowles

2014-02-14, 02:08 PM

Piggy and others, I have a question about the ranger/psy warrior build.

With the arrow demon thing, are you using your own bows? I thought that stuff molds into you or something.

Also, metamorphosis says you can't turn into an outsider, how are you morphing into a demon?

I assume that you use a base Outsider race like Neraphimm for metamorphing. And if the new form you took can wear your armor and wield your weapons, you don't lose it.

Zombulian hit the nail on the head with both answers. It's a neraph ranger, and usable gear does not meld into your form.

(When I have some time after work, I'll try to respond to the rest of the comments that have gone up since my last!)