Masterwork Hands

[Ruethgar]

So, the Create Life spell from AEG requires that you make a life-sized replica of the creature to be created and then you basically zap that into life. If you made the required craft checks and payed the extra cost of creation, could you make a human with masterwork fists?

[TuggyNE]

I feel utterly certain that this is for some sort of Monk permanent-unarmed-strike enhancement. Seems like a really roundabout way to manage it! :smalltongue:

However, sadly, I have no idea what's in AEG.

[Ruethgar]

I saw a post with someone trying to enchant monk fists but their lack of the masterwork quality is what barred it. If incarnate didn't lose everything in the transformation, that would work better. Could just make a sentient Spells and Spellcraft construct, but the minimum LA I can see with that is +1 for some horrid charisma and wisdom.

[Chronos]

I think the real solution to this is to ask your DM to waive the masterwork requirement for magic weapon crafting for the specific case of a monk's unarmed strike. It doesn't break the game at all for the monk to have enchanted fists, and it makes perfect sense thematically on multiple levels.

[Neo Tin Robo]

Every group I've played in has just ruled that the monk can get enchanted gloves/gauntlets that let him use his unarmed strike damage with the enhancement bonus. Fair and sensible.

[TuggyNE]

I think the real solution to this is to ask your DM to waive the masterwork requirement for magic weapon crafting for the specific case of a monk's unarmed strike. It doesn't break the game at all for the monk to have enchanted fists, and it makes perfect sense thematically on multiple levels.

It certainly doesn't break the game, but it's not especially clear that ordinary magic weapon crafting techniques — relying, as they do, on special materials and ingredients magically fashioned onto a base of a wooden, metal, bone or similar weapon — are directly applicable to living skin and flesh. For example, if they involve etching with special acids, welding, embossing…?

[TiaC]

It certainly doesn't break the game, but it's not especially clear that ordinary magic weapon crafting techniques — relying, as they do, on special materials and ingredients magically fashioned onto a base of a wooden, metal, bone or similar weapon — are directly applicable to living skin and flesh. For example, if they involve etching with special acids, welding, embossing…?

Go for the burn! No pain no gain!

[Ruethgar]

Could also graft on masterwork magic hands, or make them a half-golem and or chirurgic horror. Just imagine a monk with wrathful healing bastard sword for one arm and an iron golem hand for the other.

[TuggyNE]

Go for the burn! No pain no gain!

Rightyo. I'll just be … wayyyy over here, then. Where I don't have to smell burning skin.

[Malak'ai]

Go for the burn! No pain no gain!

Smells like Barbecue :smallwink:.

[mistformsquirrl]

I've always just let monks used handwraps myself. I seem to recall I got the idea from NWN1 if I remember right <o.O>

[Slipperychicken]

I think a character proficient with his Unarmed Strike should be allowed to spend 300gp of his WBL (in either training, rituals, or even charity if he's an aesthetic warrior) to treat his Unarmed Strike as a masterwork weapon.

Afterward, one should allow him to use the equivalent value of money to further improve his Unarmed Strike as though it were a magic gauntlet.


As for the ritual's fluff, call it something like "the ritual of the iron hand", where the character burns all manner of incenses while meditating. The smoke wraps around his body, perfecting his muscles and calming his nerves, rendering his strikes lethal and precise as a finely-crafted sword, and imbuing his body with the potential for magical enchantment.

If you go with the training idea, obviously the character goes through at least a long montage like from Rocky or Kill Bill, where she/he endures the trials of the harshest training (things like breaking stone and wood with his bare fists), after which the character has mastered the art of unarmed fighting.

[mistformsquirrl]

Could even go through that Shaolin ritual where they pick up a cauldron of boiling water with the wrists - in doing so branding themselves.

[Ravens_cry]

Smells like Barbecue :smallwink:.
Smells like . . . victory!

[Slipperychicken]

Smells like . . . victory!

[Kilgore impression]

Bat guano, son. Nothin else in the world smells like that. You know, one time we had a room fireballed, for 12 rounds. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' orc body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole dungeon. Smelled like... victory.

[Heliomance]

I'm with the "let the monk getenchanted handwraps/gloves" bloc. Alternatively, pick up the Kensei PrC.

[Ashtagon]

http://www.fighttips.com/forum/training-technique/4221-hardening-your-knuckles.html

"Iron palm" training is a thing. Spend your 300 gp, go punch bricks for a few weeks, and you're golden.

Rather than a Craft (whatever) check, I'd make this check character's choice of BAB (good at hitting things) or Concentration (able to withstand the pain). It's 300 gp and DC 20. And you really can't get someone else to craft it for you, which means you aren't likely to be able to attempt this reliably before level 10.

"Ruin half the raw materials" in this context means another 150 gp and half your max hp. You can't attempt the check on any day in which you are already at half hp or lower.

That said, I'd be cool with allowing such masterwork fists to be enchanted. At level 10, martial should be cinematic.

[Slipperychicken]

http://www.fighttips.com/forum/training-technique/4221-hardening-your-knuckles.html

"Iron palm" training is a thing. Spend your 300 gp, go punch bricks for a few weeks, and you're golden.


Spend the 300gp on all the bricks, walls, and boulders you're punching. Naturally, they'll all be broken by the end of the training.

Figure out how many bricks that would be, then your character can say while posing: "With these fists, I have shattered a thousand bricks!". Also, take the Mountain Hammer maneuver, then go around doing awesome stuff like punching doors down, karate-chopping iron bars, and sundering blades with your bare hands.

[Cirrylius]

I feel like there's a "concealed deadly weapons"-esque joke waiting here somewhere.

[TuggyNE]

I feel like there's a "concealed deadly weapons"-esque joke waiting here somewhere.

How about this (http://nedroid.com/2012/01/deadly-weapons/)? That work for you? :smallwink:

[Skysaber]

http://www.fighttips.com/forum/training-technique/4221-hardening-your-knuckles.html

"Iron palm" training is a thing. Spend your 300 gp, go punch bricks for a few weeks, and you're golden.

I was going to suggest the same thing. If RL monks do this for the specific purpose of improving the striking power of their hands, why should it not work in fantasy?

And masterwork quality is the best analogy available for that.

[Larkas]

All of these are pretty good ideas. Alternatively, I'd also let them use PF's Brass Knuckles (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#_brass-knuckles), since those are specifically tailored for monks (and ignore any errata that says otherwise :smallyuk: ).


...aesthetic warrior...

I dare you to google this and not laugh at the images results! :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Every group I've played in has just ruled that the monk can get enchanted gloves/gauntlets that let him use his unarmed strike damage with the enhancement bonus. Fair and sensible.
Not sensible at all.

Gauntlets aren't on the Monks weapon proficiency list, so that automatically adds a -4 nonproficiency penalty to every attack.
Wearing any piece of armor, including gauntlets, a Monk loses their AC Bonus, fast movement, and Flurry of Blows class features.

The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet.Weapon gauntlets are priced per each, meaning your Monk will have to spend money to enhance two weapons.
Monks strike with kicks, elbow jabs, and head butts. Are you going to keep track of which striking surface the Monk uses so only the hand strikes get the bonus?
No, the sensible approach is to use the existing magic item which directly addresses the need: a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). That will allow you to add magical enhancements to the character's entire unarmed strike, rather than just their hands.

[TuggyNE]

Gauntlets aren't on the Monks weapon proficiency list, so that automatically adds a -4 nonproficiency penalty to every attack.

Monk unarmed strike already gives them -4 nonproficiency! :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

I think there are a couple of (exotic) weapons that can be enchanted to add to unarmed attacks - Ward Cestus from Arms & Equipment Guide, and one other I'm having trouble remembering...was either OA or one of the Races books maybe?

[Slipperychicken]

Not sensible at all.

Wearing any piece of armor, including gauntlets, a Monk loses their AC Bonus, fast movement, and Flurry of Blows class features.

Monks lose their AC bonus for being armored, not for wearing pieces of armor.


AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

Gauntlets are classified as weapons, not armor. Though they are included in armor suits, wearing gauntlets alone is not specified as armor. Additionally, gauntlets grant no armor bonuses and do not appear in the "Armor" section.

[Ashtagon]

Gauntlets are not armour; they are weapons. They have no "armour" stats, but they do have "weapon" stats. Essentially, you can buy a gauntlet weapon for 2 gp, or you can get a gauntlet weapon as a freebie with certain armour types.

[Maginomicon]

Alternatively, pick up the Kensei PrC. The Kensai PrC (Complete Warrior page 49) is probably the most RAW/RAI-legal way to go about what you're trying to do. It allows you to upgrade natural weapons (which, unlike the usual for RAW, explicitly includes unarmed strikes).

To be honest though, if you were going for those kind of things you might as well play the Thri-kreen racial class, because then at ECL 1 you'd have 4 primary claw attacks at full BAB and a secondary bite at -5 (which beats the pants off of flurry of blows... pretty-much forever if you're wanting a unarmed-strike-centric monk build).

That said, I don't mean to hate on the monk. I just feel it can get more flavor (and awesomeness) by using the Sidewinder Monk (Dragon Magazine #331 page 89), Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine #335 page 89; "flailing strike" is hilarious and awesome), or Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324 page 97) variants and combining those with the various fighting style variants and the weapon styles variant.

I mean, look at these descriptions of the things. It's like being a kid at a candy store.

Alternate Base Monk Classes (you select either core monk or one of these)

Chaos: Chaos monks practice an art that supplicates chance and anarchy.
Sidewinder: Monks of the Order of the Sidewinder imitate the attitudes of the deceptive snake from which they take their name.
Wild: The wild monk attains perfection by embracing the natural order, assuming some druidic abilities as she grows in power.


Fighting Styles: The combat styles and aptitudes of a monk depend greatly on where (or by whom) she was trained. Each style might symbolize a different monastery, creating a rivalry (friendly or unfriendly) between their students. Perhaps a specific master teaches each style only to a few select students, meaning that a monk must prove herself worthy before pursuing the training.

Worldly styles: As the Unearthed Arcana "Fighting Styles", but adding the Kyokushinkai Karate, Wing Chun Kuen, and Wushu styles.
Beyond kung-fu: As the Unearthed Arcana "Fighting Styles", but adding the Buddhist Monk, Franciscan Friar, Knight Hospitaller, and Shinto Monk styles.
Metered style: As the Unearthed Arcana "Fighting Styles", but adding the Metered style.

Don't forget this gem:

Weapon Styles: Some monks treat certain non-traditional weapons as special monk weapons.

Feature-Swapping Variants

Holy: A monk who is particularly devoted to her religious beliefs gains divine powers in trade for some of her other talents.
Hunter: After mastering the basic talents of martial arts, some monks are selected to trade life in the monastery for a life hunting enemies of his order.
Martial: Some monks train as soldiers rather than as ascetic mystic warriors. These martial artists have a greater range of combat talents, but have less time to practice other skills.
Raging: A monk who learns to master her inner fury is capable of channeling this into great physical power, although at the cost of some of her physical and mental grace.
Steadfast: A monk might choose to give up some of her mobility in ex-change for the ability to withstand attacks.
Vigilant: A monk who can open her mind to a greater awareness gains the talent to identify her enemies more easily, but she gives up some of her inner peace.

Substitution Levels

Illuminated: Some monks find focus in meditation, cloistering themselves away to hone their intellects as well as their physiques and wits.

And that's just the stuff in the Dragon Magazines. The printed books also have a number of cool things for a monk to drool over.

[Neo Tin Robo]

blah blah

I said "fair and sensible," not "in strict accordance to the rules." Monks are already shafted in so many ways; making them pay extra for a magic weapon or forcing them to accept a lesser substitute is just mean.

[Curmudgeon]

I said "fair and sensible," not "in strict accordance to the rules." Monks are already shafted in so many ways; making them pay extra for a magic weapon or forcing them to accept a lesser substitute is just mean.
It appears you didn't actually read my post, if you've reduced the content to "blah blah". I didn't propose paying extra for a magic weapon: instead, I pointed out the magic item that lets the Monk pay the enhancement cost for just one weapon to augment their entire unarmed strike rather than just their fists. And yes, that's "in strict accordance to the rules"; is there something wrong with getting exactly what you need while also following the rules? :smallconfused:

Proposing that the Monk get magic gauntlets to only enhance part of their unarmed strike, but paying for two magic weapons, is what's "just mean".

[Neo Tin Robo]

I mainly snipped it to not bloat my own post, but also because half of it was wrong anyway, as pointed out by others. But you seem to be missing the point, if only to be curmudgeonly. It doesn't have to be gauntlets. It can be gloves, wraps, or whatever. The point is a monk can get a magic weapon without needless hassle or extra cost. The amulet you link mostly does that, but it still costs a bit more, and it takes up the valuable amulet item slot which could be used for other things.

[Sponson]

Ki Straps exist.
Ergo magical hand wraps exist.
I hope.

[Slipperychicken]

Ki Straps exist.
Ergo magical hand wraps exist.
I hope.

Just ask your DM.

He's already letting you play a Zen kung-fu monk who can run on walls and paralyze people with a single touch, who joins up with a bloodthristy berserker, a Merlin-style magician, a warrior-priest, and a holy knight in their mad quest to plunder the riches of ancient catacombs, fighting wandering chaotic beastmen and giant fire-breathing lizards to do it.


Magic hand-wraps should be within his tolerance.