how i broke the wizard and became the most powerful person in the party

[Stake A Vamp]

so, here is what i did.

i created a human wizard (level 6) that can cast wearing armour

here's how it works.

feat 1: still spell
feat (human): light armour proficiency
feat 2: medium armour proficiency
feat (wizard) 1: silent spell
feat 3: practical meta-magic (still spell)

my DM allowed this (for anyonee who has read my other posts i am involved in two campaigns, one as DM, one as a Player). whay should i do next (currently wearing breastplate and throwing around fireballs)

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not being mean here and please don't take my following question as meaning any kind of offense:

Are you exactly aware of what a Wizard is capable of and how insignificantly small potatoes your build is?

[Setra]

Correct me if I am wrong but...

Don't you need Dragon Blood, and Spontaneous Casting for PMM?

Also, doesn't it not reduce metamagic below one spell above the spell level?

[Fable Wright]

Congradulations. You managed to cast spells while wearing a piece of armor for +5 AC.

Unfortunately, while that's impressive for your group in particular, on any optimization forum, that is remarkably unimpressive, to be honest. Alter Self into a Lizardfolk gives you the same armor bonus, requires no feats, and can be used to stack with other armor.

If you want to see what breaking a Wizard looks like, look at some of Emporer Tippy's posts. In fact, let me save you the effort.

Shapechange -> Zodar -> Wish -> Scroll of Ice Assassin of an Aleax of you -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Power Stone of Fusion -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Power Stone of Astral Seed -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Thought Bottle -> Use Power Stone of of Fusion on Ice Assassin -> Use Power Stone of Astral Seed -> Use Thought Bottle -> Kill yourself -> Return from Astral Seed -> Use Thought Bottle to regain lost level.

There you go, now the only one who can ever harm you is you thanks to Singular Enemy (Ex). Total cost was 3,825 GP for the Scroll of Shapechange.

Note that this loop also grants you infinite wishes if you spend more time turning into a Zodar.

[Lightlawbliss]

you just used 2 feats to get a breastplate and another to compensate for it...

before too long you and/or the cleric will be casting spells that make that breastplate look like a playground toy and all the advantage it gives over an enchanted robe will become miniscule for a primary caster.

Not to mention you are sacrificing your highest lvl spells to cast weaker ones, and can't efficiently use your first levels.

[Tanuki Tales]

Note that this loop also grants you infinite wishes if you spend more time turning into a Zodar.

To be fair, didn't Tippy point out that you didn't need to necessarily be a Wizard for that trick to work?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Yeah, this is less "Breaking the Wizard" and more "Using feats in exactly the manner the game designers intended."

[Stake A Vamp]

well,i thought it was cool (goes and pouts in corner)

i suppose i should rename the thread, also, did not catch all those prereqs for PMM

[Fable Wright]

To be fair, didn't Tippy point out that you didn't need to necessarily be a Wizard for that trick to work?

Yes, but being a Wizard helps.

Combine that with Grey Elf Domain Wizard 1 with the substitution level, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster to get Shapechange at level 1, and it becomes significantly more Wizard based.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, this is less "Breaking the Wizard" and more "Using feats in exactly the manner the game designers intended."
Pretty much. Even so, it isn't useless. Don't forget in typical casual games wizards do get stabbed, so armor is handy. And it takes trivial optimization to keep AC relevant at all levels. For dungeon runs (or anything under an hour), alter self is handy, yes, but it also stacks with all other AC so you can and should do both. Doesn't help at all with wilderness ambush issues, though.

In short, OP, you seem to be having fun so continue as you were. Pick up alter self to cast at entrances to places. For the rest of the time there's magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ioun stone and a buckler. You may use a masterwork or magic buckler without proficiency because there's no armor check penalty and therefore no non-proficiency penalty.

[MirddinEmris]

Well, besides being ninjed about practical metamagic not reducing metamagic modifier lower than +1 and requiring being dragonblooded, i should say that you have +5 to AC after spending 3 feats for that, but if you cast Mage Armor, you would have +4, which also applies to against incorporeal touch attacks and doesn't cost any feats or gold and doesn't weight anything. Hardly broken, i say :)

[Jack_Simth]

Yes, but being a Wizard helps.

Combine that with Grey Elf Domain Wizard 1 with the substitution level, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster to get Shapechange at level 1, and it becomes significantly more Wizard based.
You're going to have to boost your caster level significantly to do that - see, Shapechange limits the HD of the form to your caster level, and a Zodar has 16 hit dice.

[iDesu]

Combine that with Grey Elf Domain Wizard 1 with the substitution level, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster to get Shapechange at level 1, and it becomes significantly more Wizard based.

Does that actually work, though? Begging the question on actually getting the 9th level slot, wouldn't you still need a caster level of 17 to cast shape change?

[Tanuki Tales]

well,i thought it was cool (goes and pouts in corner)

i suppose i should rename the thread, also, did not catch all those prereqs for PMM

It's cool if you're having fun doing it. I, and I assume the others, just don't want you to feel like you're breaking the game and thus having wrongfun for playing your Wizard the way you want to.

[Just to Browse]

If you're still interesting in this concept and can become a dwarf, Runesmith is also a cool thing.

[eggynack]

Really, you're in the best possible place you can be in a game. You feel like you're doing something so powerful that it's breaking the game, when really you're making some of the least optimal choices you can make. If you can feel really good while doing something generally mediocre, that's a pretty sweet place to be in general.

[Chronos]

This thread is instructive, though: If you can spend all of your feats on things that don't actually make much difference to a wizard, and spend your spell slots on one of the less-effective spells, and still outperform your party-mates, that tells you something about just how broken wizards are.

[Harrow]

Runesmith from Races of Stone would be a much more efficient version of this. It's a full casting prestige class that requires heavy armor proficiency and effectively gives you Still Spell for free on all your spells. A one level dip in something that gives you heavy armor proficiency and you have something neat and useful at the cost of being a single level behind straight casters.

Then there's luminous armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) (+5 AC, -4 to-hit you with melee) and a greater version (+8 with same penalty) that are both hour/level so you can have them up all day, and they can both give up to an additional +5 AC if you have levels in Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage).

Finally, a Githcraft, Feycraft (DMG II) +1 Mithral Chain Shirt costs 3,200 gold and gives +5 ac for just a bit of gold.

Let's see... you could also go Cleric 1/ Wizard X, get metamagic school focus and heighten spell, heighten a level 0 Cleric spell twice to make it a level 2 spell in a level 1 slot and you qualify for Geomancer, which gives full wizard casting from that point on and let's you cast wizard spells as Divine spells, so they don't get any arcane spell failure and you can use Divine Metamagic on them, and the Cleric dip gives you two or three domain powers, heavy armor and shield proficiency, and Turn Attempts to power divine metamagic, all on top of the other weird goodies Geomancer gives you.

Those are all the ways to do something like this off the top of my head. Anyone know of any more? I'm not trying to be mean and degrade what you've done, it's actually something I like to do and like knowing more ways to do it.

[iDesu]

Also, iDesu, you don't actually need a high caster level to cast high level spells. Just the spell slots for them.

Can I get a source on that? At least the way I'm reading the d20srd and the PHB make it seem otherwise.


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.


If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

[Fable Wright]

You're going to have to boost your caster level significantly to do that - see, Shapechange limits the HD of the form to your caster level, and a Zodar has 16 hit dice.

Good point; I missed that.

In that case, you could just scribe Wish into your spellbook, save up 5k experience (shouldn't be hard to do when you can Meteor Swarm anything in your way; Meteor Swarming 2 Trolls is more than enough) and then cast Wish yourself for a Caster Level 17 Scroll of Shapechange.

[Kane0]

well,i thought it was cool (goes and pouts in corner)

i suppose i should rename the thread, also, did not catch all those prereqs for PMM
You should totally keep the thread title as is, it's funny. It gives a little perspective to the whole 'wizards are gamebreakingly OP' thing.

If you spend feats doing something that the original 3rd ed books thought was OP then by all means bask in your glory, this is indeed one of the relatively few ways you get to feel OP as a wizard without actually breaking things.

That said, it's rare that a non-optimized armored mage is the most powerful party member. But don't let us burst your bubble, have your fun! We aren't in your group, so all we can do is type words at you :smallwink:

[Sylthia]

It can be fun to play against type. Out of curiosity, why did you take silent spell? I don't think that armor interferes with verbal components.

Your build isn't overpowered, but you'll be far from the weakest member in your party.

[Gildedragon]

Stilled; not silenced.
But yeah, now ASF is the possible problem. Alternatively: 1 level in archivist and Alternate Spell Source everything into divine spells (also have no ASF)
But Runecaster is prob the best option for the armored mage archetype

[Vknight]

Why not just

...Darn it I was certain there is a feat which lets you cast in Light Armor without penalty. Anyone? I can't find/remember it

If it does exist

That +Mithrail Breastplate

Battle Caster lets you ignore chance of Arcane Spell Failure in heavier armor. So if that feat does exist the two together would let you run around in Mithrail Full Plate as a wizard

[CaladanMoonblad]

My eldritch knight character took a 2 level dip into fighter to start (for extra feat and another d10 HD) then went straight wizard. I took 1 feat for Combat Expertise, and roll around with an AC 30 base while spell slinging at level 10. At 6th level, used Leadership to get a cohort (fighter/sorcerer build) to act as my own personal battle cannon while my character fights on the front line.

All without spell failure... how? Mithral Breastplate & Mithral Large Shield imbued with "Twilight." The only iffy part is whether your GM allows negative spell failure chance to stack.

I lost 3 caster levels with this build (1 dip in Fighter turns this to just 2), but it works well for me in our group (we have an open GM policy- when someone GMs, their character is stabled).

If casting while using armor is your cup of tea? You may enjoy Eldritch Knight.

[Flickerdart]

OP, I'm going to point out a nifty little rule that armoured wizard builds take full advantage of. The penalty for not being proficient with armour depends entirely on its ACP. If its ACP is 0, you can wear it even if nonproficient. You also don't need Still Spell if your armour has 0% ASF.

By the level all your feats kick in, you can easily afford a +1 mithral thistledown githcraft chain shirt, and get the same +5 AC bonus without any feat expenditure.

[Heliomance]

My eldritch knight character took a 2 level dip into fighter to start (for extra feat and another d10 HD) then went straight wizard. I took 1 feat for Combat Expertise, and roll around with an AC 30 base while spell slinging at level 10. At 6th level, used Leadership to get a cohort (fighter/sorcerer build) to act as my own personal battle cannon while my character fights on the front line.

All without spell failure... how? Mithral Breastplate & Mithral Large Shield imbued with "Twilight." The only iffy part is whether your GM allows negative spell failure chance to stack.

I lost 3 caster levels with this build (1 dip in Fighter turns this to just 2), but it works well for me in our group (we have an open GM policy- when someone GMs, their character is stabled).

If casting while using armor is your cup of tea? You may enjoy Eldritch Knight.

No. Eldritch Knight is a trap. There are WAY better gish classes out there - I think Abjurent Champion is the gold standard.

[Vknight]

No. Eldritch Knight is a trap. There are WAY better gish classes out there - I think Abjurent Champion is the gold standard.

This is true. But if you want to take eh have fun

[nedz]

No. Eldritch Knight is a trap. There are WAY better gish classes out there - I think Abjurent Champion is the gold standard.

Well Eldritch Knight is your basic, core, gish class. Now there are better PrCs out there, several in fact, but its hardly a trap. Have you seen some of the other PrCs in the DMG ?

[Elderand]

Slightly out of left field, there is the warmage prc from dragonlance : age of mortals which reduce asf

[Gnaeus]

Those are all the ways to do something like this off the top of my head. Anyone know of any more? I'm not trying to be mean and degrade what you've done, it's actually something I like to do and like knowing more ways to do it.

You can also just memorize spells that don't have somatic components. Stuff like true strike, benign transposition, blindness, blur, or displacement. Or spells that have long durations like mount, or utility spells like Identify. Fill in needed gaps with a couple of scrolls. Maybe take a reserve feat.

It isn't game breaking, but you can actually make it through 5-6 levels of wizard without casting a spell that has somatic components in combat. By the time there really aren't any good options, AC isn't your best defense anyway.

[Unusual Muse]

I'm currently playing a Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/Knight Phantom 2, which is turning out to be a lot of fun. This is a solid gish, and Knight Phantom has more flavor than Eldritch Knight.

[Deepbluediver]

You should totally keep the thread title as is, it's funny. It gives a little perspective to the whole 'wizards are gamebreakingly OP' thing.

Frankly, it seems perfectly in line with what WotC thought was powerful and what wasn't.


Armor is great! Spells are ho-hum! Full BAB is OP! Unique class abilities are the best no matter how situational their use!

[Flickerdart]

Forget unique class abilities - WotC had a massive stiffy for 1/day low-level SLAs as everything you get that level.

[Talderas]

A wizard doesn't even need armor proficiency. All non-proficiency does is grants it armor check penalty to attack rolls and any movement based skills.

A chain shirt worth about 6k (I think) after enhancements can have an armor check penalty of 0 and a arcane spell failure chance of 0%. Yeah. It's a piece of armor that is functionally identical for someone with light armor proficiency and someone without light armor proficiency. 0 feats required and just a little WBL expended with only -1 AC to what the OP posted.

Edit: Actually, it's got the same armor AC as a breastplate (has a +1 enhancement). The downside is that it has a +1 enhancement to reduce ASF or ACP so that's +1 of additional stuff that the breastplate has over the chain shirt and +1 AC at a total +10 breastplate vs +10 chain shirt.

[Grommen]

This thread is instructive, though: If you can spend all of your feats on things that don't actually make much difference to a wizard, and spend your spell slots on one of the less-effective spells, and still outperform your party-mates, that tells you something about just how broken wizards are.

Or how broken the other characters are.

[Stake A Vamp]

Or how broken the other characters are.

let's put it this way. i am the least hit, in a party with a cleric, ranger, and monk/rogue (talk about MAD). perhaps i am the only competent party member.:smallconfused:

EDIT: yes i am often front-lining, as the ranger and monk/rogue are "ranged", i think i am a better melee combatant than the cleric, (i defiantly kill more people, and yes i am considering eldrich knight)

[Aharon]

Congradulations. You managed to cast spells while wearing a piece of armor for +5 AC.

Unfortunately, while that's impressive for your group in particular, on any optimization forum, that is remarkably unimpressive, to be honest. Alter Self into a Lizardfolk gives you the same armor bonus, requires no feats, and can be used to stack with other armor.

If you want to see what breaking a Wizard looks like, look at some of Emporer Tippy's posts. In fact, let me save you the effort.


Note that this loop also grants you infinite wishes if you spend more time turning into a Zodar.

Questionable because of Aleax. I prefer this trick:Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-240748.html)

[lord_khaine]

No. Eldritch Knight is a trap. There are WAY better gish classes out there - I think Abjurent Champion is the gold standard.

Yeah, the problem with that one however is that you need to be pretty high level before you can grab it.


let's put it this way. i am the least hit, in a party with a cleric, ranger, and monk/rogue (talk about MAD). perhaps i am the only competent party member.

As other people have said, i envy your position :smallsmile:
You seems to be in a place of fun gameplay that other people need several gentleman agreements to reach :smalltongue:

[Raineh Daze]

The important thing is that everyone have fun; regardless of optimisation level. And honestly, if you can have fun whilst playing whatever takes your fancy, regardless of practicality, you're in a very good place (as opposed to 'I just broke the storyline with a single spell again) :biggrin:

Also, let's be honest--if you've got that sort of optimisation level, why would you be taking any of the advice offered here? That'd just ruin everyone else's fun. :tongue:

[Larkas]

As other people have said, i envy your position :smallsmile:
You seems to be in a place of fun gameplay that other people need several gentleman agreements to reach :smalltongue:

So much this! If you're having fun, that's all that matters :smallsmile:

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Course, if you are having fun, then you should try and help everyone else have fun too. Plus, being less hit is pretty good since your HP is still really low. I'd suggest for you to help the rest of the party members. Your cleric could use some help in the way of divine power to help him. And remember: The best armor is concealment. +5 AC equals 25% less chance of getting hit. That, plus concealment, will make enemies hate you. And for flavor/tactics, don't be overtly spellcaster so enemies dismiss you as a melee. Then, break out the big guns.

[Threadnaught]

This thread made Tippy cry.

Either the OP had no idea about what makes the Wizard Tier 1 and was amazed at being the only competent player in their group.

Or they're making a really funny joke/commentary on how broken the Wizard class really is. As JaronK put it, all those poor choices early on don't matter if at later levels you can just kill anything with a thought.


Whatever the case Stake A Vamp, if what you said about your sessions is true and you're enjoying it. And the other players and DM enjoy it too.
Do not accept any advice from us, if you take any advice on how to play your Wizard, besides how you're already playing it, we will ruin it for you and your entire group. Meaning nobody will be having fun and you'll hate everyone here for truly breaking your game.

Your group sounds fun to DM for.

[Zombulian]

so, here is what i did.

i created a human wizard (level 6) that can cast wearing armour

here's how it works.

feat 1: still spell
feat (human): light armour proficiency
feat 2: medium armour proficiency
feat (wizard) 1: silent spell
feat 3: practical meta-magic (still spell)

my DM allowed this (for anyonee who has read my other posts i am involved in two campaigns, one as DM, one as a Player). whay should i do next (currently wearing breastplate and throwing around fireballs)

... Oh. My. God. ARE YOU A MAGICIAN?

Step aside Tippy. There's a new optimizer in town.

But in reality dude, that's a pretty good trick, it's not breaking anything but in the game you're playing it obviously works. Keep at it, you'll get there.

[Harrow]

Really, of all the ways to be overpowered, 'My AC is too high' may just be the best. I've had groups with people who charged blindly into danger with 13 AC and you feel obliged to try and save their lives. A lot. Especially if they are otherwise useful (group's only healer/trapfinder/what-have-you). You don't step on other peoples' toes, you don't force the DM to make more powerful encounters (which maim the rest of the party), yet you get to feel awesome and invincible.

And this is all so much nicer on a caster, because you can still do things. Try tanking with melee and you find enemies walk around you. You aren't a threat, so they ignore you. But when you can still be dropping fireballs on their heads? You have fun, your group has fun, and your DM doesn't feel the need to end either of those things.

[TuggyNE]

This thread made Tippy cry.

Can Tippy cry? I thought he traded that away for an extra 5% reduction on boon trap crafting costs. :smalltongue:

[Stake A Vamp]

This thread made Tippy cry.

Either the OP had no idea about what makes the Wizard Tier 1 and was amazed at being the only competent player in their group.

Or they're making a really funny joke/commentary on how broken the Wizard class really is. As JaronK put it, all those poor choices early on don't matter if at later levels you can just kill anything with a thought.


Whatever the case Stake A Vamp, if what you said about your sessions is true and you're enjoying it. And the other players and DM enjoy it too.
Do not accept any advice from us, if you take any advice on how to play your Wizard, besides how you're already playing it, we will ruin it for you and your entire group. Meaning nobody will be having fun and you'll hate everyone here for truly breaking your game.

Your group sounds fun to DM for.
let's all pretend it is a really funny joke, shall we. :smallredface:

Really, of all the ways to be overpowered, 'My AC is too high' may just be the best. I've had groups with people who charged blindly into danger with 13 AC and you feel obliged to try and save their lives. A lot. Especially if they are otherwise useful (group's only healer/trapfinder/what-have-you). You don't step on other peoples' toes, you don't force the DM to make more powerful encounters (which maim the rest of the party), yet you get to feel awesome and invincible.

And this is all so much nicer on a caster, because you can still do things. Try tanking with melee and you find enemies walk around you. You aren't a threat, so they ignore you. But when you can still be dropping fireballs on their heads? You have fun, your group has fun, and your DM doesn't feel the need to end either of those things.
thank you, also, does anyone know a way to become immune to fire (that i my charge into melee AND DROP A FIREBALL CENTERED ON MYSELF AFTER THEY ALL SWARM TOWARD ME)

[Zombulian]

let's all pretend it is a really funny joke, shall we. :smallredface:

thank you, also, does anyone know a way to become immune to fire (that i my charge into melee AND DROP A FIREBALL CENTERED ON MYSELF AFTER THEY ALL SWARM TOWARD ME)

Go into Rage Mage! Pick up a level of Barbarian, and then get Blazing Berserker to give yourself the Fire Subtype.

[Fable Wright]

thank you, also, does anyone know a way to become immune to fire (that i my charge into melee AND DROP A FIREBALL CENTERED ON MYSELF AFTER THEY ALL SWARM TOWARD ME)

I know several, but what you're looking for is Protection from Energy, third level spell.

[Stake A Vamp]

also, quick question, what in the nine-****s does Tier 1 mean, i have seen it used a lot in this thread, but never before?

[eggynack]

The tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293).

[Flickerdart]

let's all pretend it is a really funny joke, shall we. :smallredface:

thank you, also, does anyone know a way to become immune to fire (that i my charge into melee AND DROP A FIREBALL CENTERED ON MYSELF AFTER THEY ALL SWARM TOWARD ME)
Check out Fireburst and its Greater version from Complete Arcane. They're meant specifically for blowing up everything around you while leaving yourself unharmed.

[nedz]

Not all classes are created equally.
The Tier 1 classes are the most powerful, though this is not apparent at low levels and may not be apparent at low optimisation levels.
The Tier 1 classes you are most likely to be familiar with are Cleric, Druid and Wizard — though there are others.

[Stake A Vamp]

The tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293).

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

[Malroth]

the classes have been divided into tiers based on their relative power and versitility.

Tier 6: Completely worthless in almost all situations
Commoner, Aristrocrat, Complete warrior Samurai

Tier 5: Does only one limited Job and doesn't do it very well, completely useless outside its chosen area so specalization
Fighter, Paladin, Marshal

Tier 4: Can do one job well but its useless outside its chosen role.
Healer, Rogue, Scout, Warmage

Tier 3: Can do one job well and is still useful when primary trick is innapropiate Concidered the sweet spot for party balance.
Warblade, Beguiler, Factotum, Dread Necromancer

Tier 2: Can render certain types of encounters moot, is useful in almost all situations, has abilities that completely negate the presence of other party members and can completely break the game with some work
Sorcorer, Favored Soul, Psion

Tier 1: Can render all types of encounters moot, has to work not to outshine other party members, Can break the game multiple ways with little effort.
Wizard, Archivist, Druid, spell to power erudite

Edit: Player skill does somewhat negate a 1 or 2 tier difference but a skilled player with a Samurai is never going to equal the capabilites of any druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

Except that no level of competence allows the player of a Ftr20 to have the broad range of impact on the game world that a Wiz20 has. The disparity is evident even at much lower levels, but I think it's hard to ignore past 16 or so. Fighters get their last few bits of coolness after the 4th attack (a few more feats, most of which will be sadly wanting), while wizards get spells that let them do pretty much anything imaginable.

[Deepbluediver]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

In terms of having fun, yes. But in an objective test of how many different situations a specific class can handle, and how easily they can handle them, some classes blow others completely out of the water.

Another test would be to pit on optimized class against the other and see who comes out on top more often. In the hands of a competent player, wizards will beat fighters more often than not, and the ratio gets skewered further the higher up in level you get.

[eggynack]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)
You couldn't possibly have read the whole thing between my post and this one. The tier system doesn't evaluate classes in terms of some inherent indefinable goodness. It evaluates them in terms of their problem solving capabilities. In the hands of a competent player, a fighter will never equal the power or versatility level of a druid. You don't have much understanding of D&D balance, so it might behoove you to gain a greater understanding before making broad sweeping generalizations about the game, and claim offense at an attack on your limited understanding. If you don't care about the game's balance, that's your prerogative. The tier system is an accurate model of the game's balance though, and that's an important thing for people who care about that kind of thing, myself included.

[Kazyan]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

This forum operates under the paradigm of the tier system by and large, so, um, get used to fawning over certain classes--it's pretty well entrenched.

[nedz]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

Well you'd think that would be the case, but it isn't.

Of course: Player > Build > Class but as for the classes themselves: no.

[nedz]

This forum operates under the paradigm of the tier system by and large, so, um, get used to fawning over certain classes--it's pretty well entrenched.

The tier system has been empirically tested. It's not about fawning, it's about trying to create a balanced party so that everyone can contribute — and have fun.

[Kazyan]

The tier system has been empirically tested. It's not about fawning, it's about trying to create a balanced party so that everyone can contribute — and have fun.

I did not intend to do a passive-agressive discounting, if that's what it looked like. Just trying to empathise with the new guy. I know that the system works.

[Malroth]

its mostly for the DM's use. A DM with a party of 1 Greenbound summoning Druid, 1 DMM Persist Cleric and 1 Shadowcraft Mage wizard is going to have to have a lot more difficult encounters than the DM with 1 sword and board paladin, 1 2wF ranger, and a dragon shaman.

[eggynack]

its mostly for the DM's use. A DM with a party of 1 Greenbound summoning Druid, 1 DMM Persist Cleric and 1 Shadowcraft Mage wizard is going to have to have a lot more difficult encounters than the DM with 1 sword and board paladin, 1 2wF ranger, and a dragon shaman.
It can also be used as something of a preventative measure, so that you don't end up with the greenbound summoning druid, DMM persist cleric, 2wf ranger, dragon shaman party. That way, it's possible for the DM to have a basic universal competency level for the encounters to scale to.

[Verditude]

Yes, but being a Wizard helps.

Combine that with Grey Elf Domain Wizard 1 with the substitution level, Alacritous Cogitation, and Versatile Spellcaster to get Shapechange at level 1, and it becomes significantly more Wizard based.

Sorry to be the noob here, but how does this work exactly?

[Malroth]

Elven generalist gives one spell level of the "highest he can cast"

Domain wizard gives one spell slot of each spell they can cast and knowledge of all spells in that domain

Versitile spell caster allows conversion of 2 spell slots of lower level to 1 higher lv slot.

How it works together.

Elven generalist domain wizard1 can cast 1st lv spells, he gets a free spell slot of 1st lv spells for elven generalist and 1 domain slot for first lv spells. He then takes versitile spell caster. he has more than 2 1st lv spell slots so he can now cast 2nd lv spells. He knows his 2nd lv domain spell and so gains a 2nd lv domain slot and his elven generalist bonus spell slot becomes a 2nd lv slot. He now has 2 open spell slots for 2nd lv spells, can therefore cast a 3rd lv spell, so his 3rd lv domain slot opens up and his bonus spell slot becomes a 3rd lv slot. This repeats untill he reaches 8th lv spells at which time he spontaneously casts whatever 9th lv spell he has for his domain spell using Alcritous Cogination.

[Verditude]

he has more than 2 1st lv spell slots so he can now cast 2nd lv spells.

I disagree with this line. The text of Versatile Spellcaster says it lets you cast "a spell you know that is one level higher." If you don't know any spells of that level, you don't gain the ability to cast spells of that level, which is a problem when the prerequisite for knowing a domain spell is being able to cast spells of that level. You have to know a higher level spell before Versatile Spellcaster lets you do anything, so you can't get your first higher level spell by means of it.

[Malroth]

domain wizards already know all their domain spells

[Verditude]

From the SRD: "A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it."

The becoming able to cast is the thing, and as I showed earlier, the domain wizard doesn't become able to cast spells of a certain level until s/he knows one. Although if you find someone with high level spells in their book and write them down, you get past the bootstrapping issue. But this requires DM fiat and is outside the realm of TO.

[icefractal]

Player skill does somewhat negate a 1 or 2 tier difference but a skilled player with a Samurai is never going to equal the capabilites of any druid.Well ... any Druid played even at even a fraction of its potential. But there's virtually no limit to how weak something can be built and/or played. For example:

Druid 20
Main fighting style is to use a scimitar and hide armor, with minimal buffs.
Animal companion is an owl, which generally flies around scouting or sometimes tries to disarm people. No ranks in Hide.
Casts rarely, mostly blasting (and not the good ones from Frostburn), and healing. Wildshapes rarely, mainly for utility or disguise reasons. Plays up the "uncivilized" angle.

Not useless (still probably beats the Samurai some areas), but likely outclassed in combat, and not great in urban social situations. You may laugh, but I've seen people do things very much like this.

[eggynack]

Well ... any Druid played even at even a fraction of its potential. But there's virtually no limit to how weak something can be built and/or played. For example:

Druid 20
Main fighting style is to use a scimitar and hide armor, with minimal buffs.
Animal companion is an owl, which generally flies around scouting or sometimes tries to disarm people. No ranks in Hide.
Casts rarely, mostly blasting (and not the good ones from Frostburn), and healing. Wildshapes rarely, mainly for utility or disguise reasons. Plays up the "uncivilized" angle.

Not useless (still probably beats the Samurai some areas), but likely outclassed in combat, and not great in urban social situations. You may laugh, but I've seen people do things very much like this.
Yeah, there're definitely ways to suck as a druid. The funny thing about druids though, is that the distance between sub-optimal and optimal is so damn small sometimes. Like, one day that druid decides that he wants to become a bear, just on a lark, and ends up killing all of the enemies that the samurai was planning to kill. Or, he decides that he's going to use one of his poorly planned out spell slots to cast an SNA, and that single spell dominates the encounter. It's like, a campaign with a druid in it is always one short step from insanity. The funny thing is, I could easily take that poorly built druid, and play it at a pretty highly optimal level, and there wouldn't even be a cost involved. I just cross out "owl" on the character sheet, and write in fleshraker dinosaur, and then things quickly reach a point where the samurai is physically incapable of killing the druid. It's not a real measure of class power, but it might as well be for a class as one note as the samurai.

[Harrow]

The tier system is about options. A Wizard doesn't get as many feats as a Fighter, but a Wizard can still take (almost) any Fighter feat, then still cast Plane Shift and Summon Monster and Polymorph, all things no Fighter can ever do. Then, if a Wizard realizes that after using a spell, it doesn't work as well as they thought it would, they don't prepare it the next morning and prepare something else instead. The Fighter gets a bad feat? He has to wait until level up to retrain, if that's even an option. A bad feat chain? You pretty much have to make a new character.

Wizards aren't better than Fighters. Wizards are more adaptable than Fighters, with a wider range of problems they can solve with little-to-no effort.

The entire tier system is basically a measure of a classes ability to solve any given problem. A Fighter can sometimes solve combat. Some Fighters can solve almost all combat. But a Wizard can learn all spells on their list if they have to, so a Wizard can solve any problem that can be solved. Sorcerers ans Psions can't solve quite as many problems, Beguilers and Dread Necromancers fewer still, Rogues and Warlocks generally have to rely on party members for a lot of problems, and Fighters and Monks often need party help to overcome combat and can't contribute to anything else.

[TuggyNE]

… then things quickly reach a point where the samurai is physically incapable of killing the druid. It's not a real measure of class power, but it might as well be for a class as one note as the samurai.

One minor caveat: this assumes that the samurai isn't optimized for fear lockdowns, or that the druid has some means of being immune to fear. But since one or the other is pretty likely, it doesn't matter too much. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

: this assumes that the samurai isn't optimized for fear lockdowns, or that the druid has some means of being immune to fear. But since is pretty likely, it doesn't matter too much. :smallwink:
Does intimidate lock down need line of sight to work? If so, then the elemental super attack method I posted in the druid vs. fighter thread should work. It doesn't really require all of those fancy feats to work, it just likes having access to them. Man, summoning crazy swarms of elementals in the surprise round solves every problem all the time. :smallsmile:

Edit: Also, we have access to summon elemental monolith. That's gotta be good for something. I guess shape change could help too, but eh. It's a bit of an overplayed plan. In essence, there's a trade off of super optimizing powers for an additional four druid levels. I've gotta give the game to the 20th level druid, even without all of the fancy bells and whistles that I like to rely on. The initiative mod even goes higher at this level, topping out at around +13 from huge air elemental. I haven't researched that though.

[Verte]

Has the tier system actually been empirically tested? I mean, beyond the occasional duel, JaronK's personal experiences, or after-the-fact accounts of games that went awry? I ask for two reasons: one, I joined long after it was created, so I don't know what went into its creation, and two, the phrase "empirically tested" has the connotation that there was both evidence from personal experience and experimental evidence involved. Like, I'm picturing a scenario where first-time players ran ten parties with classes of broadly mixed tiers through the same campaign. Then, very experienced people run ten parties of the same composition through the same campaign arc. Then the process is repeated with ten different campaign arcs and meanwhile all the gameplay is being rigorously recorded and analyzed by teams of unbiased observers. I mean, if that's the way things happened, then wow, I'm really impressed, because that's awesome. I guess I just want to know how it actually was created.

I guess my point is that the tier system is a set of guidelines that can be useful as a rule of thumb when comparing the versatility and power levels of different classes. Yeah, a high level druid (or cleric, or wizard) is just about always going to be much more powerful than a high level fighter played by the same person or people with similar optimization abilities and system understanding. But on the other hand, the tier system isn't as useful for less clear-cut situations, nor for ones that are really the purview of out-of-game factors. I've certainly seen enough threads in which a DM complains about say, a Barbarian problem player, in which the majority of respondents claim that's impossible or not a real problem because Barbarians are only Tier 4. And oftentimes in those threads, the problem originates with the player, or the DM, or the rest of the party, not with the class. If a player is really determined to be a jerk, restricting tiers or changing game systems probably isn't going to make them more fun to play with. And yeah, I know that JaronK never claimed that tier system is for out-of-game disputes, but it seems like it's sometimes used by other people to explain problems it wasn't meant to explain.

[TuggyNE]

Does intimidate lock down need line of sight to work?

It requires the target to be able to see you, but not, I think, the other way around. (And I don't think it has any language like gaze attacks where being able to see and choosing not to helps.)

[ahenobarbi]

Has the tier system actually been empirically tested? I mean, beyond the occasional duel, JaronK's personal experiences, or after-the-fact accounts of games that went awry? I ask for two reasons: one, I joined long after it was created, so I don't know what went into its creation, and two, the phrase "empirically tested" has the connotation that there was both evidence from personal experience and experimental evidence involved.

Not really. There are many situations, where you can't plan and execute experiment to test your hypothesis and you have to rely on data from things happening naturally (for example you can't take a few thousand of people, make half start doing X, prevent the other half from doing it and see if it causes cancer).





I guess my point is that the tier system is a set of guidelines that can be useful as a rule of thumb when comparing the versatility and power levels of different classes. Yeah, a high level druid (or cleric, or wizard) is just about always going to be much more powerful than a high level fighter played by the same person or people with similar optimization abilities and system understanding. But on the other hand, the tier system isn't as useful for less clear-cut situations, nor for ones that are really the purview of out-of-game factors. I've certainly seen enough threads in which a DM complains about say, a Barbarian problem player, in which the majority of respondents claim that's impossible or not a real problem because Barbarians are only Tier 4. And oftentimes in those threads, the problem originates with the player, or the DM, or the rest of the party, not with the class. If a player is really determined to be a jerk, restricting tiers or changing game systems probably isn't going to make them more fun to play with. And yeah, I know that JaronK never claimed that tier system is for out-of-game disputes, but it seems like it's sometimes used by other people to explain problems it wasn't meant to explain.

Actually you gave example of unforeseen but working application of tier system: help finding actual problem. If someone comes complaining that barbarians are too powerful and how to nerf them then a quick look at tier system will tell you that barbarians usually are not over powered and thus it's a good idea to check for other problems (rule misunderstandings/houserules, jerk player, rest of party being horribly unoptimized, encounters being horribly unoptimized, ...).

[Malroth]

Of course the tier system also considers "dealing Damage" to be only one small part of what an adventuring party needs to do to be successful. It assumes obstacles will be involved, in negotiating to receive the quest, in locating the site they're supposed to visit, in finding hidden traps and enemies, and many other diverse problems besides "kill enemy with HP Damage". In some more combat heavy campaigns, especially ones where the battle maps aren't planned out well or aren't used, the Fighter and Barbarian can seem to be unbalanced characters simply because they're capable of so much maximum damage. But they're usually built as one trick ponies like Uberchargers or Trip lockdown and their out of combat weaknesses aren't shown in these campaigns because for some people there is no out of combat.

[nedz]

Has the tier system actually been empirically tested? I mean, beyond the occasional duel, JaronK's personal experiences, or after-the-fact accounts of games that went awry? I ask for two reasons: one, I joined long after it was created, so I don't know what went into its creation, and two, the phrase "empirically tested" has the connotation that there was both evidence from personal experience and experimental evidence involved. Not really. There are many situations, where you can't plan and execute experiment to test your hypothesis and you have to rely on data from things happening naturally (for example you can't take a few thousand of people, make half start doing X, prevent the other half from doing it and see if it causes cancer).

It's an empirical theory. It hasn't really been tested formally and certainly not with gold standard techniques such as double blind testing. It is supported by the experience and the evidence of numerous games.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Double-Blind testing is nice, but you can have very robust and useful empirical theories that describe reality without it.

[Vknight]

The Tier system works out.

Wizard Lvl 20. I make the Tippy Verse
Fighter Lvl 20. I charge, or trip.

And that is the issue of the day

Anyways OP's post is great for a non optimized group.
We are just saying that compared to anything on a given day done by Tippy[What the full potential of a wizard is] would ummm
Break it?

Reminds me of when I had the party fight a Level 5 Wizard at level 3-4.
When he didn't throw out fireballs they got confused.
When the summons came out along with a few other things it was over.

Also thank you everyone for you non-help if figuring out what that feat was

[jywu98]

I don't see how you broke the wizard. You're just playing the type of wizard that WotC intended players to play.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't see how you broke the wizard. You're just playing the type of wizard that WotC intended players to play.

WotC intended wizards to wear medium armor? Because the fact that it took the OP four feats to do so kind of implies otherwise.

[eggynack]

Also thank you everyone for you non-help if figuring out what that feat was
I don't even think it exists, hence the non-answers. Battlecaster is a thing, but not one that works here because wizards don't get any ability to cast in armor. If you did gain the ability to cast in light armor, then battlecaster would get you up to medium, but I don't even know if that stacks with ASF reducers anyway. I believe that common wisdom is that you just kinda stack item based ASF reducers until you get the most armor that doesn't hurt casting. If you have to spend a feat to get there, which I don't even think is possible, then it's not worth it. Anyway, here's the list of ASF reducers from the list of stuff.

"Twilight, armor enhancement, Book of Exalted Deeds, -10%
Thistledown, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Leafweave, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Feycraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Githcraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Hellforged, armor template, DMG2, +5%
Blue Ice, component, Frostburn, cast [Cold] spells without ASF"

Seriously though, no need to get all on the offence. Presumably, no one answering means that either no one knows the answer, or that people missed the question. You can always just ask for us to check some more without the sarcastic tone.

[Raineh Daze]

Anyway, here's the list of ASF reducers from the list of stuff.

"Twilight, armor enhancement, Book of Exalted Deeds, -10%
Thistledown, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Leafweave, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Feycraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Githcraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Hellforged, armor template, DMG2, +5%
Blue Ice, component, Frostburn, cast [Cold] spells without ASF"

You've left out Mithral, which is -10%.

[eggynack]

You've left out Mithral, which is -10%.
It's an odd thing, but I don't think it was on the lists of stuff. Maybe it's just listed somewhere else, but as one of the most common ASF reducers it's an odd thing to leave out. Either way, there's a whole bunch of other ASF reducers that have higher opportunity costs, so I'll just put a link here to the lists of stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff).

[Killer Angel]

Anyways OP's post is great for a non optimized group.

I still fail to see, even in a non optimized group, how it's great to use a ton of feats, to achive a result that is basically similar to the casting of a single mage armor...

[Raineh Daze]

I still fail to see, even in a non optimized group, how it's great to use a ton of feats, to achive a result that is basically similar to the casting of a single mage armor...

Because he doesn't have to cast mage armor, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Because he doesn't have to cast mage armor, obviously. :smallbiggrin:

Style matters, indeed.

"why are you going through all this effort?"
"Because I can". :smallcool:

[Just to Browse]

Also because walking around in fullplate casting spells looks way cooler than having a magic force field.

[Emperor Tippy]

This thread made Tippy cry.
Laugh actually. It's great to see players relatively new to the game and be reminded of what they consider "broken".


Step aside Tippy. There's a new optimizer in town.
*Bows out gracefully to go bake cookies on his fast time demiplane*

----
I bet I can make a monk (at least 15 levels of Monk) that will beat most tier one or tier two enemies and do it without using Ice Assassin/Fusion/Astral seed to give my character tons of abilities or class features (or yeah, and am allowed LA buy off).

[thethird]

*Bows out gracefully to go bake cookies on his fast time demiplane*

I like cookies can I have a cookie?

[Emperor Tippy]

I like cookies can I have a cookie?

*stares at the little worm and wonders how he got into his personal demiplane, waves hand and flings thethird into a slow time dead magic prison plane to deal with later. throws in a cookie as well because he is so generous. gets back to work*

[Fable Wright]

I bet I can make a monk (at least 15 levels of Monk) that will beat most tier one or tier two enemies and do it without using Ice Assassin/Fusion/Astral seed to give my character tons of abilities or class features (or yeah, and am allowed LA buy off).

Given that the Symbiote Template exists, not taking that bet. I'd be interested in seeing how you do it, though.

[Talya]

As has already been mentioned (and ignored), ignoring the optimization factor of the goal, Practical Metamagic doesn't work that way. It does absolutely nothing on Still Spell, because it can't reduce the metamatic level increases to less than +1.

[thethird]

*stares at the little worm and wonders how he got into his personal demiplane, waves hand and flings thethird into a slow time dead magic prison plane to deal with later. throws in a cookie as well because he is so generous. gets back to work*

Awesome cookies and a slow plane demiplane to enjoy them for longer.

To not derail further, when my group was starting we thought that Druids were under powered because they weren't able to speak when wildshaped and thus our druid was most of its time fighting with its quarter staff and using wildshape for out of combat stuff. When he wildshaped into a rat to sneak into a fortress the rogue called shenanigans because it was better than him at that. Fun times.

[Vknight]

As has already been mentioned (and ignored), ignoring the optimization factor of the goal, Practical Metamagic doesn't work that way. It does absolutely nothing on Still Spell, because it can't reduce the metamatic level increases to less than +1.

Improved Metamagic

My group thought a barbarian with Monkey Grip was overpowered.

And could have sworn there was a feat called Armored Mage

[eggynack]

Improved Metamagic

My group thought a barbarian with Monkey Grip was overpowered.

And could have sworn there was a feat called Armored Mage
It's apparently a 3.0 feat that gives a 10% reduction in ASF if you cast as a full round action. It has any metamagic feat, and being a dwarf as prerequisites. Armored caster is more similar to what you're talking about, but it takes you from the ability to wear some type of armor without ASF to the ability to wear heavier armor without spell failure chance. It doesn't get you from no armor to light armor though, especially because it takes some kind of armored casting as a prerequisite. That one's in complete arcane on page 75, by the way.

[killem2]

well,i thought it was cool (goes and pouts in corner)

i suppose i should rename the thread, also, did not catch all those prereqs for PMM

It is cool.

There is nothing ever NOT cool about d&d :P.

There are much more cooler things you'll learn about around here :P

[Heliomance]

Also because walking around in fullplate casting spells looks way cooler than having a magic force field.

I was going to say "lies" and post a picture of Fenris from DA2 with Lyrium Ghost up, but I couldn't find a good pic.

[Flickerdart]

There is nothing every NOT cool about d&d :P.
Toughness.

[Immabozo]

Toughness.

QFT.

Casting in light armor with no ASF comes at the cost of 1 level of Warmage

[Flickerdart]

QFT.

Casting in light armor with no ASF comes at the cost of 1 level of Warmage
Sadly, this only applies to warmage spells gained from the warmage class, and having a couple more AC points isn't worth being a warmage.

[Larkas]

Sadly, this only applies to warmage spells gained from the warmage class, and having a couple more AC points isn't worth being a warmage.

It depends. Considering the OP's group optimization level, a Warmage might fit right in. Besides, Warmages are not the best casters ever, but they're far from terrible, and definitely not "worthless being".

[Immabozo]

It depends. Considering the OP's group optimization level, a Warmage might fit right in. Besides, Warmages are not the best casters ever, but they're far from terrible, and definitely not "worthless being".

In a low op group, warmages can really shine. My first game was low-med op and we had a warmage and he really shined

[Threadnaught]

this kinda offends me (it's existence, not your posting it) this is saying that some classes are inherently better than others, but in the hands of a competent player, all classes are equal (in my opinion)

Actually this is false, in the hands of a competent player the difference in power and adaptability becomes more apparent than when in the hands of an incompetent play, or someone new. When in the hands of someone more like yourself, the gap is less noticeable because some people are unable to see the potential of classes in the higher tier, while they can easily bust out the best of the lower tiers because they're simpler to play, with less options which makes finding the right choice easier.


Laugh actually. It's great to see players relatively new to the game and be reminded of what they consider "broken".

I think I prefer tuggyne's version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15273341&postcount=46). :smallamused:


*Bows out gracefully to go bake cookies on his fast time demiplane*

Those cookies must be optimized... Somehow. :smallconfused:
I must have one.


I bet I can make a monk (at least 15 levels of Monk) that will beat most tier one or tier two enemies and do it without using Ice Assassin/Fusion/Astral seed to give my character tons of abilities or class features (or yeah, and am allowed LA buy off).

That I'd like to see. I'm currently in the middle of building a Druid, who may be able to survive for just over a round. More if you help me abuse VoP.

[Philistine]

And could have sworn there was a feat called Armored Mage

There is a Class Feature by that name common to a handful of classes including Beguiler, Duskblade, and Warmage.

[Marnath]

There is a Class Feature by that name common to a handful of classes including Beguiler, Duskblade, and Warmage.

Don't forget Bard. No, don't look at me like that. They are a caster class.:smalltongue:

[Philistine]

Bards (and Warlocks) can cast in light armor with no ASF, but they do not have a Class Feature called Armored Mage (in case that ever came up as a PrC prereq or something).

[Talderas]

It's an odd thing, but I don't think it was on the lists of stuff. Maybe it's just listed somewhere else, but as one of the most common ASF reducers it's an odd thing to leave out. Either way, there's a whole bunch of other ASF reducers that have higher opportunity costs, so I'll just put a link here to the lists of stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff).

And that all leads to the medium armored casters with no arcane spell failure and no armor check penalty.

Breastplate : 5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 Armor Check Penalty, 25% Arcane Spell Failure

Apply Mithril : 5 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 15% ASF
Apply +1 and Twilight (+1): 6 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 5% ASF
Apply Nimbleness (+1): 6 AC, +7 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 5% ASF
Apply Thistledown Padding: 6 AC, +7 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 0% ASF

As I pointed out before the only penalty for non-proficiency is applying the armor check penalty for all movement based checks and attack rolls however if you really want to get rid of that -1 ACP then you just use Armor Lubricant which costs about 40gp and reduces your ACP by 1 for 1d4 hours.

There you go, medium armor wearing mage. No feats required.

[Barsoom]

And that all leads to the medium armored casters with no arcane spell failure and no armor check penalty.

Breastplate : 5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -4 Armor Check Penalty, 25% Arcane Spell Failure

Apply Mithril : 5 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 15% ASF
Apply +1 and Twilight (+1): 6 AC, +5 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 5% ASF
Apply Nimbleness (+1): 6 AC, +7 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 5% ASF
Apply Thistledown Padding: 6 AC, +7 Max Dex, -1 ACP, 0% ASF

As I pointed out before the only penalty for non-proficiency is applying the armor check penalty for all movement based checks and attack rolls however if you really want to get rid of that -1 ACP then you just use Armor Lubricant which costs about 40gp and reduces your ACP by 1 for 1d4 hours.

There you go, medium armor wearing mage. No feats required.

Nitpickery: no it's not. It's a light armor wearing mage. Mithril Breastplate is, in fact, a light armor.

[Talderas]

Nitpickery: no it's not. It's a light armor wearing mage. Mithril Breastplate is, in fact, a light armor.

It's treated as light armor for determining movement and other limitations relating to abilities like fast movement. It is otherwise still a medium armor, which means you would still need to have medium armor proficiency to wear it without the non-proficiency penalties.

[nedz]

What people normally seem to go for is a Mithril Chain Shirt (DMG) since that is light armour. The people who do this are normally Rogues, Rangers, Bards etc. — in fact Mithril is remarkable for it's rarity ubiquity.

[Zombulian]

This is directed again at the OP.
So I noticed you already have the forum rank of Dwarf instead of Pixie, but you are obviously a rookie to the optimizing game. Which board do you hail from traveler?

[Philistine]

It's treated as light armor for determining movement and other limitations relating to abilities like fast movement. It is otherwise still a medium armor, which means you would still need to have medium armor proficiency to wear it without the non-proficiency penalties.

In fact, RAW is silent on the subject: "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations" is the entire text there, and it fails to specify what "other limitations" are meant. Therefore a reading of "all of them, including Feat prereq" is at least as well-supported in RAW as any other, and better supported than "only for move speed and abilities that affect move speed" (all of which fall under "for purposes of movement" and so would not require the "other limitations" clause at all). Also note that the Mithral Full Plate of Speed is explicitly a Medium Armor.

Finally, there's a FAQ or CustServ answer (yeah, yeah, I know) somewhere on the interwebz that also says "other purposes was supposed to be ALL purposes, we should have made that explicit" - for whatever that's worth.


ETA: Linky - http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Discussion:Does_Mithral_Armor_actually_change_the_ armor_type%3F

[Vknight]

It's apparently a 3.0 feat that gives a 10% reduction in ASF if you cast as a full round action. It has any metamagic feat, and being a dwarf as prerequisites. Armored caster is more similar to what you're talking about, but it takes you from the ability to wear some type of armor without ASF to the ability to wear heavier armor without spell failure chance. It doesn't get you from no armor to light armor though, especially because it takes some kind of armored casting as a prerequisite. That one's in complete arcane on page 75, by the way.

Found that and that well looking for over an hour. Maybe it was homebrew or a different name but i had a wizard in light armor.

Also Armored Mage Fighter Variant. Lose Medium & Heavy armor proficiency for no ASF in light.
Get Battle Caster
Combo with Mithril Full Plate
1 feat for Battle Caster and must start off with a level in fighter.

And now your villain can run around in Full Plate tossing fireballs, flying. And have it glamoured Red & Gold

[TuggyNE]

I think I prefer tuggyne's version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15273341&postcount=46). :smallamused:

Heh. Thanks!


Those cookies must be optimized... Somehow. :smallconfused:
I must have one.

They probably have an Ex contingent programmed amnesia in them or something. :smalltongue:

[Kazuel]

Elven generalist gives one spell level of the "highest he can cast"

Domain wizard gives one spell slot of each spell they can cast and knowledge of all spells in that domain

Versitile spell caster allows conversion of 2 spell slots of lower level to 1 higher lv slot.

How it works together.

Elven generalist domain wizard1 can cast 1st lv spells, he gets a free spell slot of 1st lv spells for elven generalist and 1 domain slot for first lv spells. He then takes versitile spell caster. he has more than 2 1st lv spell slots so he can now cast 2nd lv spells. He knows his 2nd lv domain spell and so gains a 2nd lv domain slot and his elven generalist bonus spell slot becomes a 2nd lv slot. He now has 2 open spell slots for 2nd lv spells, can therefore cast a 3rd lv spell, so his 3rd lv domain slot opens up and his bonus spell slot becomes a 3rd lv slot. This repeats untill he reaches 8th lv spells at which time he spontaneously casts whatever 9th lv spell he has for his domain spell using Alcritous Cogination.

Does this say a lvl 1 wizard can cast Lv 9 spells? 2 questions. 1) which books do these options reside? 2) what DM would ever allow this?

[Gavinfoxx]

Shouldn't you do that with Tumbler's Breastplate instead?

[Fable Wright]

Does this say a lvl 1 wizard can cast Lv 9 spells? 2 questions. 1) which books do these options reside? 2) what DM would ever allow this?

In order:
Versatile Spellcaster- Races of the Dragon
Elven Generalist- Races of the Wild
Alacritous Cogitation- Player's Handbook/SRD
Domain Wizard- Unearthed Arcana/SRD
Gray Elf- Monster Manual/SRD

And a DM that was running a high-optimization epic level game where one player wanted to try out running a creature with a lot of templates, such as Paragon and/or Pseudonatural (Epic Level Handbook and SRD for each) would probably allow getting 9th level spells with a one-level dip and two feats just to get them on par with everyone else.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's MY version of the Easy Bake Wizard, some of which was described earlier:


Easy Bake Wizard!

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Grey Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

[danzibr]

Here's MY version of the Easy Bake Wizard, some of which was described earlier:


Easy Bake Wizard!

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Grey Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

Hmm, I like this version. Totally bookmarking it.

[Stake A Vamp]

Laugh actually. It's great to see players relatively new to the game and be reminded of what they consider "broken".

I have made Emperor Tippy laugh, my life is complete, (also, on an unrelated note addressing the community at large, how do you figure as a druid as tier 1)

[Gavinfoxx]

I have made Emperor Tippy laugh, my life is complete, (also, on an unrelated note addressing the community at large, how do you figure as a druid as tier 1)

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0

There you go.

In short:
Wild Shape
Great Spells
Animal Companion

Also, see:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940

By level... 9 or so? You are an armor-wearing bear with a pet armor wearing bear, summoning 1d3 bears...

[Morcleon]

I have made Emperor Tippy laugh, my life is complete, (also, on an unrelated note addressing the community at large, how do you figure as a druid as tier 1)

9th level prepared casting with a very versatile spell list (and complete access to the entire list) combined with the ability to turn into pretty much any animal, plant or elemental as well as having a customizable companion that can very easily be more effective than your standard fighter. :smallcool:

[eggynack]

I have made Emperor Tippy laugh, my life is complete, (also, on an unrelated note addressing the community at large, how do you figure as a druid as tier 1)
Cause they have full casting to the level of being a tier 1. If that was their only class feature, they'd probably still be tier 1. Without casting, they're still at tier 3, because they have wildshape which is versatile enough to make the druid a tier 3. Without wildshape, I guess they're tier 5. The animal companion is basically a tier 5, and I don't know the extent to which a weak druid friend helps with that. They're kinda super powerful, being a tier 1, taped to a tier 3, with a tier 5 hanger on. They don't even need to be built past taking natural spell, because it takes them only about a day to switch out every single important class feature for something more appropriate. Moreover, they can prepare somewhat situational spells, and switch them out for SNA which is pretty universally applicable to all situations.

[Pickford]

Congradulations. You managed to cast spells while wearing a piece of armor for +5 AC.

Unfortunately, while that's impressive for your group in particular, on any optimization forum, that is remarkably unimpressive, to be honest. Alter Self into a Lizardfolk gives you the same armor bonus, requires no feats, and can be used to stack with other armor.

If you want to see what breaking a Wizard looks like, look at some of Emporer Tippy's posts. In fact, let me save you the effort.


Note that this loop also grants you infinite wishes if you spend more time turning into a Zodar.

This doesn't work. (For many reasons which I will outline below)

1) Shapechange allows many different creature types as per polymorph + gaseous and incorporeal. Construct is not one of those types. This is a major flaw and renders the entire scheme impossible. (But let us proceed)

2) Zodar Wish is once in a lifetime. thing. That means the character, were they able to become a construct (i.e. assuming we dramatically change the rules) would only be able to use the ability once. Ever. Also the Zodar Wish beyond being held captive to the standard Wish ruleset must also result in a non-obvious outcome. A scroll is obvious and thus impossible.

3) A Scroll of Ice Assassin. This part has many flaws, all of them fatal to the ploy.
3a) Requires a powdered diamond worth 20,000gp (this alone invalidates the ability of wish to create a scroll of ice assassin)
3b) Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.

One might ask: Why can't the character get a portion of an aleax? That is because the aleax (and all it's components and equipment) disappear upon its defeat. Thus, there can never be an ice assassin of an aleax. The premise is fundamentally flawed.

Also, the existence of a scroll of ice assassin presupposes the existence of an aleax of the character...which would logically result in an Aleax being created and killing the character, immediately.

Beware of accepting assertions made at face value.

[Zombulian]

So you see, people really want you to know why druid is tier 1. Since about 3 in a row posted essentially the same thing, without paying attention to the fact they'd been ninja'd.

[eggynack]

So you see, people really want you to know why druid is tier 1. Since about 3 in a row posted essentially the same thing, without paying attention to the fact they'd been ninja'd.
I feel that my answer was comparatively expansive enough to merit a post. Also, I really like druids, like a whole lot. I'd probably have posted something explaining why I thought they were tier one, even if I'd known about the previous posts on the topic. It might've had even more details, but it'd be there.

[Larkas]

In order:
Versatile Spellcaster- Races of the Dragon
Elven Generalist- Races of the Wild
Alacritous Cogitation- Player's Handbook/SRD
Domain Wizard- Unearthed Arcana/SRD
Gray Elf- Monster Manual/SRD

And a DM that was running a high-optimization epic level game where one player wanted to try out running a creature with a lot of templates, such as Paragon and/or Pseudonatural (Epic Level Handbook and SRD for each) would probably allow getting 9th level spells with a one-level dip and two feats just to get them on par with everyone else.

Question (that might already have been asked, sorry if I missed it): don't you have to attain a minimum caster level to cast a 9th level spell, such as 17 with a Wizard? :smallconfused:

[Seer_of_Heart]

Question (that might already have been asked, sorry if I missed it): don't you have to attain a minimum caster level to cast a 9th level spell, such as 17 with a Wizard? :smallconfused:

There is no such thing as that :smallbiggrin:. While it is implied several times technically there is nowhere it is defined. (Also what is the "minimum caster level" when using various classes we can drastically vary caster level required for a specific spell.

[Zombulian]

Question (that might already have been asked, sorry if I missed it): don't you have to attain a minimum caster level to cast a 9th level spell, such as 17 with a Wizard? :smallconfused:

You need a casting stat of at least 19. That may be what you're thinking of.

[Heliomance]

In order:
Versatile Spellcaster- Races of the Dragon
Elven Generalist- Races of the Wild
Alacritous Cogitation- Player's Handbook/SRD
Domain Wizard- Unearthed Arcana/SRD
Gray Elf- Monster Manual/SRD

And a DM that was running a high-optimization epic level game where one player wanted to try out running a creature with a lot of templates, such as Paragon and/or Pseudonatural (Epic Level Handbook and SRD for each) would probably allow getting 9th level spells with a one-level dip and two feats just to get them on par with everyone else.

Pretty sure there's a build knocking about somewhere that manages to get 9th level sorc/wiz spells on a pure fighter. No idea how, but someone's done it.


This doesn't work. (For many reasons which I will outline below)

1) Shapechange allows many different creature types as per polymorph + gaseous and incorporeal. Construct is not one of those types. This is a major flaw and renders the entire scheme impossible. (But let us proceed)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.



2) Zodar Wish is once in a lifetime. thing. That means the character, were they able to become a construct (i.e. assuming we dramatically change the rules) would only be able to use the ability once. Ever. Also the Zodar Wish beyond being held captive to the standard Wish ruleset must also result in a non-obvious outcome. A scroll is obvious and thus impossible.

Wish (Su): Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it
had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its
Hit Dice. None has ever been known to actually use this
ability more than once in a century. Even when the effect of
the wish is of great importance, it is likely to be subtle and
largely unrecognized as the work of the zodar.
A zodar can Wish once a year, not once a lifetime. Also, the wording "is likely to be subtle" is descriptive, not prescriptive, and is not a binding requirement.

As for the once a year thing, that's why you repeatedly shapechange and unshapechange. Technically, when you shapechange into a creature, you gain all its abilities out of the book. There's no RAW justification for saying "you already used that, it's unavailable" when you've turned into a different zodar. You the character don't have a counter for when you can use Wish again, as you don't have a Wish ability. If you stayed in the form of a zodar, you wouldn't be able to Wish again for a year, but if you turn back into your own form and then into a zodar again, you become a different zodar and you have access to another Wish.



3) A Scroll of Ice Assassin. This part has many flaws, all of them fatal to the ploy.
3a) Requires a powdered diamond worth 20,000gp (this alone invalidates the ability of wish to create a scroll of ice assassin)
3b) Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.
No, it requires those things to craft, but not to Wish into existence. It's a very well known bit of poor wording that there is no limit on the cost of a magical item that Wish can create. The relevant bit is this:

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
The price limit is only on non-magical items. A scroll is clearly a magical item, and thus can be Wished into existence just fine, despite the large price tag. Incidentally, as the non-magical limit is 25,000 gp, a 20,000 gp diamond is within Wish's capability anyway.


One might ask: Why can't the character get a portion of an aleax? That is because the aleax (and all it's components and equipment) disappear upon its defeat. Thus, there can never be an ice assassin of an aleax. The premise is fundamentally flawed.
Irrelevant. There is no listed cost for a portion of an aleax, thus it does not add to the scroll's cost. And again, Wish does not craft such a scroll, it simply causes it to exist. Even if you rule that the portion of the aleax doesn't count as a material component which is thus covered by the scroll, as a non-magical item with no listed cost, another Wish spell can create one with no issues.


Also, the existence of a scroll of ice assassin presupposes the existence of an aleax of the character...which would logically result in an Aleax being created and killing the character, immediately.

Beware of accepting assertions made at face value.
If crafted, it would require that. Wish comes with no such restrictions.

[nedz]

So you see, people really want you to know why druid is tier 1. Since about 3 in a row posted essentially the same thing, without paying attention to the fact they'd been ninja'd.
The thing about Ninjas is: you can't seem them.

Does this say a lvl 1 wizard can cast Lv 9 spells? 2 questions. 1) which books do these options reside? 2) what DM would ever allow this?
2)
This is TO (Theoretic Optimisation). TO is a game we play where we take the rules and show how the can be broken. TO is not meant to be used in a real game — that isn't the point. You are unlikely to ever find a DM who would allow this trick and conversely, if you do: run.

[ahenobarbi]

Pretty sure there's a build knocking about somewhere that manages to get 9th level sorc/wiz spells on a pure fighter. No idea how, but someone's done it

Not that hard:

Get need Magical Training feat (grants you spell casting of 0th level spells, Players Guide to Faerun)
Take Precocious Apprentice feat (gives you 2nd level slot, complete Arcane)
Take Extra Slot to get 1st level slot.
Heighten Spell + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell to cast 0th level spell from 1st level slot as 3rd level spell (0(base) + 1 + 1 (earth spell) + 1 (sanctum)).
Take Extra slot to get 2nd level slot.
Cast heightened 0 level spell from 2rd level slot as 4th level spell
Take Extra slot to get 3rd level slot.
....


Only problem is it requires a lot of feats (so elven fighter is good - it can chaos-shuffle all those feats). Of course you should do it using wizard casting (so you can learn new spells without wasting feats).

[Killer Angel]

2)
This is TO (Theoretic Optimisation). TO is a game we play where we take the rules and show how the can be broken. TO is not meant to be used in a real game — that isn't the point. You are unlikely to ever find a DM who would allow this trick and conversely, if you do: run.

When you realize it, it's too late. The BBEG minions have already taken you.

[jedipilot24]

Also because walking around in fullplate casting spells looks way cooler than having a magic force field.

If you want to walk around in fullplate casting spells, be a Duskblade.
The Wizard has not spent his life learning to unlock the secrets of the multiverse to go walking around in a hot, heavy metal box.

[Raineh Daze]

If you want to walk around in fullplate casting spells, be a Duskblade.
The Wizard has not spent his life learning to unlock the secrets of the multiverse to go walking around in a hot, heavy metal box.

Says you. :smalltongue:

[Pickford]

A zodar can Wish once a year, not once a lifetime. Also, the wording "is likely to be subtle" is descriptive, not prescriptive, and is not a binding requirement.

As for the once a year thing, that's why you repeatedly shapechange and unshapechange. Technically, when you shapechange into a creature, you gain all its abilities out of the book. There's no RAW justification for saying "you already used that, it's unavailable" when you've turned into a different zodar. You the character don't have a counter for when you can use Wish again, as you don't have a Wish ability. If you stayed in the form of a zodar, you wouldn't be able to Wish again for a year, but if you turn back into your own form and then into a zodar again, you become a different zodar and you have access to another Wish.

No, it requires those things to craft, but not to Wish into existence. It's a very well known bit of poor wording that there is no limit on the cost of a magical item that Wish can create. The relevant bit is this:

The price limit is only on non-magical items. A scroll is clearly a magical item, and thus can be Wished into existence just fine, despite the large price tag. Incidentally, as the non-magical limit is 25,000 gp, a 20,000 gp diamond is within Wish's capability anyway.

Irrelevant. There is no listed cost for a portion of an aleax, thus it does not add to the scroll's cost. And again, Wish does not craft such a scroll, it simply causes it to exist. Even if you rule that the portion of the aleax doesn't count as a material component which is thus covered by the scroll, as a non-magical item with no listed cost, another Wish spell can create one with no issues.

If crafted, it would require that. Wish comes with no such restrictions.

Heliomance, the key phrase is: "This spell functions like polymorph", nothing in the rest of that sentence describes the types of creature forms that can be assumed. For that, one must refer to polymorph: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin. No construct.

You appear to be mistaken on the Zodar:

Wish (Su): Once in a lifetime a Zodar can cause a powerful Wish to occur. However the result of this power is almost always something that is not widely known and does not draw attention to this secretive race.

Not year, lifetime. And shapechange doesn't undo limits, the character doesn't 'become' another creature, they are always themselves. The character as a zodar has one wish a lifetime, once they've used it, it's used. Other abilities that are once a year/day function similarly. Nothing supports your chosen interpretation.

Once again, you're mistaken on Wish, the spell actually requires material components over 10,000gp be provided during the Wish, otherwise it fizzles. As this is specific, it would over-ride any generalism. While the item itself could be wished for, that would require two wishes, not one.

A portion of an Aleax is an unobtainable thing, thus it fizzles because such a scroll is impossible.

[Juntao112]

You appear to be mistaken on the Zodar:

Objection!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/Zodar_zps39b5a587.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddsun/media/Zodar_zps39b5a587.jpg.html)

Fiend Folio, page 199. Look it up, G.

By the way, how's that monk coming along? As stated, 32 point buy with standard WBL is fine by me. All official sources open, of course.

[Flickerdart]

Pickford's Zodar text seems to be copied from the first thing you get when you google Zodar, an unofficial conversion from 1990 Spelljammer. This, kids, is why you verify your sources, or at least scroll to the bottom of the page to read what it is instead of skimming to the bit you think proves your point.

[Heliomance]

Heliomance, the key phrase is: "This spell functions like polymorph", nothing in the rest of that sentence describes the types of creature forms that can be assumed. For that, one must refer to polymorph: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin. No construct.

I'll try again:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.

Emphasis mine. You can quite clearly turn into a construct.



Not year, lifetime. And shapechange doesn't undo limits, the character doesn't 'become' another creature, they are always themselves. The character as a zodar has one wish a lifetime, once they've used it, it's used. Other abilities that are once a year/day function similarly. Nothing supports your chosen interpretation.
Nothing supports yours. You turn into a Zodar from the book. That Zodar has all the abilities listed in the book, including the once a year Wish (And it is once a year, as stipulated in the 3e Fiend Folio). You use the Wish. You turn back into a human (or whatever). You no longer have the ability to cast Wish, so you don't have a year long timer on it. You turn back into a Zodar. That Zodar has all the abilities listed in the book, including the once a year Wish.

It's ambiguous, I'll grant you, as the rules don't cover that specific situation, but the only consistent ruling is that when you become a creature, you become it exactly as it is in the book, absent any more specific stipulations in the text of the spell.


Once again, you're mistaken on Wish, the spell actually requires material components over 10,000gp be provided during the Wish, otherwise it fizzles. As this is specific, it would over-ride any generalism. While the item itself could be wished for, that would require two wishes, not one.
Ah, but you're not using Wish to duplicate the spell Ice Assassin, you're using Wish to create a scroll of Ice Assassin. Thus it uses the rules for creating a magic item, and the expensive material component simply increases the price of the scroll - which Wish cares not one jot for.


A portion of an Aleax is an unobtainable thing, thus it fizzles because such a scroll is impossible.
That's a house rule.

Also, it is entirely possible to get a portion of an Aleax. It only disappears if the target "destroys the Aleax in battle" (BoED p159). If you incapacitate it through any means short of destruction - or, by strict RAW, if you manage to destroy it while remaining outside combat rounds - it doesn't vanish. I realise that it's a construct, so doing so is tricky, but it's not at all impossible.

[eggynack]

On the topic of aleax parts, couldn't you just chop off a finger and not kill him? the aleax disappears if you kill him, and if he kills you, you're dead, but if you were to incapacitate him and started lopping off body parts, I don't think there's anything stopping you. I don't know if you have to be able to get aleax parts normally for this to work, but even if you do I think that this method should be successful. It's really frigging tricky, but it seems doable.

Edit: Alas, for I have been swordsage'd by the mighty force of editing. What cruel fate is this, to be stymied by a lack of observational skills? The inutterable allure of a point proven was too much for my weak heart.

[Heliomance]

Actually, on looking at the Aleax, Pickford's right that it doesn't work - though for a completely different reason.


Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

"Harm" has no in-game definition, aside from the spell. Thus, we can consider the second sentence as clarification on what is meant by "harm". "Attack", however, does have an in-game definition. That definition is, I believe, any effect requiring an attack roll.

So anything with an attack roll attached won't hurt you. Essentially you have infinite AC. Anything that doesn't have an attack roll, though, affects you just as normal.

[Pickford]

Pickford's Zodar text seems to be copied from the first thing you get when you google Zodar, an unofficial conversion from 1990 Spelljammer. This, kids, is why you verify your sources, or at least scroll to the bottom of the page to read what it is instead of skimming to the bit you think proves your point.

So it does, whoops!

That doesn't undo the basic limitations on casting wish more than once in a year though.

Edit: That's not a house rule, the scroll requires the part of the aleax which is unique (and thus of infinite value) and also non-existent.

Wishing for things that don't exist falls well within the realm of DM fiat.

[Morcleon]

Actually, on looking at the Aleax, Pickford's right that it doesn't work - though for a completely different reason.



"Harm" has no in-game definition, aside from the spell. Thus, we can consider the second sentence as clarification on what is meant by "harm". "Attack", however, does have an in-game definition. That definition is, I believe, any effect requiring an attack roll.

So anything with an attack roll attached won't hurt you. Essentially you have infinite AC. Anything that doesn't have an attack roll, though, affects you just as normal.

You could give it a haircut. Unless its hair is being used for some vital purpose, this does not hinder or harm the Aleax at all, as well as not being an attack. :smallbiggrin:

[Pickford]

You could give it a haircut. Unless its hair is being used for some vital purpose, this does not hinder or harm the Aleax at all, as well as not being an attack. :smallbiggrin:

Aleaxs attack the thing they look like on sight and vanish on death. Nothing would be able to interfere.

[Morcleon]

Aleaxs attack the thing they look like on sight and vanish on death. Nothing would be able to interfere.

You could simply give it a haircut when it can't see the thing they look like. Or you could be a ninja-barber and give it a haircut during the fight. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Aleaxs attack the thing they look like on sight and vanish on death. Nothing would be able to interfere.
Yeah, but couldn't the aleax's target give it a haircut, and then not kill it? There seems to be a nice potential window between the aleax's bodily mutilation, and the aleax's death, in which you would have an aleax body part. That window could theoretically be infinite, if you kept the aleax trapped somehow. You wouldn't make your diety very happy, but the body part is clearly attainable. Also, if the aleax kills the victim, what happens to the aleax's body parts? It doesn't say that they disappear in that case, so a third party could get fancy aleax body parts. As a sidenote, I find it amusing that your objection here and heliomance's objection are mutually exclusive.

[Heliomance]

That doesn't undo the basic limitations on casting wish more than once in a year though.
I've addressed that twice. When you shapechange into a creature, you turn into it as it is in the book, with all its abilities intact. You turn into a zodar, gaining he ability to Wish once a year. You Wish. You turn into a human, losing the ability to Wish once a year. You turn into a zodar, gaining the ability to Wish once a year.


Edit: That's not a house rule, the scroll requires the part of the aleax which is unique (and thus of infinite value) and also non-existent.

Wishing for things that don't exist falls well within the realm of DM fiat.
House rule! It doesn't have a listed value, and thus is free for the purposes of Wish. Also I already pointed out how you can get aleax parts - either incapacitate the aleax without destroying it, or destroy it outside battle.


Aleaxs attack the thing they look like on sight and vanish on death. Nothing would be able to interfere.

See above.

[Emperor Tippy]

This doesn't work. (For many reasons which I will outline below)

1) Shapechange allows many different creature types as per polymorph + gaseous and incorporeal. Construct is not one of those types. This is a major flaw and renders the entire scheme impossible. (But let us proceed)


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types
There are the types, Construct is the second one down.


2) Zodar Wish is once in a lifetime. thing.
No, it's once per year as shown on Fiend Folio page 199. There is a screen cap of it posted by Juntao112 in this thread.


That means the character, were they able to become a construct (i.e. assuming we dramatically change the rules) would only be able to use the ability once. Ever.
That is why you change your form to something besides Zodar and then back to Zodar. Shapechange doesn't give you one Zodar form that you turn into every time you use it, it just makes you a zoadr with all of it's book abilities; including the ability to use Wish.


Also the Zodar Wish beyond being held captive to the standard Wish ruleset must also result in a non-obvious outcome. A scroll is obvious and thus impossible.
Um, no.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.



3) A Scroll of Ice Assassin. This part has many flaws, all of them fatal to the ploy.
3a) Requires a powdered diamond worth 20,000gp (this alone invalidates the ability of wish to create a scroll of ice assassin)
3b) Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.
Neither is required if you Wish for the Scroll, only if you cast it yourself. This is why you arguably can't create just a scroll of "Ice Assassin" and have to create one of "Ice Assassin of X".


One might ask: Why can't the character get a portion of an aleax? That is because the aleax (and all it's components and equipment) disappear upon its defeat. Thus, there can never be an ice assassin of an aleax. The premise is fundamentally flawed.

Also, the existence of a scroll of ice assassin presupposes the existence of an aleax of the character...which would logically result in an Aleax being created and killing the character, immediately.
Except it's not. You would have to prove that no such creature exists anywhere in any reality/universe/multiverse at any point in time ever.


Beware of accepting assertions made at face value.
Beware of people who really don't seem to know what in the world they are talking about.


Actually, on looking at the Aleax, Pickford's right that it doesn't work - though for a completely different reason.



"Harm" has no in-game definition, aside from the spell. Thus, we can consider the second sentence as clarification on what is meant by "harm". "Attack", however, does have an in-game definition. That definition is, I believe, any effect requiring an attack roll.

So anything with an attack roll attached won't hurt you. Essentially you have infinite AC. Anything that doesn't have an attack roll, though, affects you just as normal.
No attack rolls, no spells that do any kind of damage, no poisons; those are all clear cut. After that it gets a bit debatable what exactly counts as harm or an attack.

[Heliomance]

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types
There are the types, Construct is the second one down.


No, it's once per year as shown on Fiend Folio page 199. There is a screen cap of it posted by Juntao112 in this thread.


That is why you change your form to something besides Zodar and then back to Zodar. Shapechange doesn't give you one Zodar form that you turn into every time you use it, it just makes you a zoadr with all of it's book abilities; including the ability to use Wish.


Um, no.



Neither is required if you Wish for the Scroll, only if you cast it yourself. This is why you arguably can't create just a scroll of "Ice Assassin" and have to create one of "Ice Assassin of X".


Except it's not. You would have to prove that no such creature exists anywhere in any reality/universe/multiverse at any point in time ever.


Beware of people who really don't seem to know what in the world they are talking about.


No attack rolls, no spells that do any kind of damage, no poisons; those are all clear cut. After that it gets a bit debatable what exactly counts as harm or an attack.

I had already explained all of that :P

Damaging spells without attack rolls still count as attacks? I know they count as aggressive actions for the purpose of things like Invisibility, but I didn't think they were attacks. And harm isn't defined anywhere.

[Talderas]

I had already explained all of that :P

Damaging spells without attack rolls still count as attacks? I know they count as aggressive actions for the purpose of things like Invisibility, but I didn't think they were attacks. And harm isn't defined anywhere.

The terms defined in the D&D glossary only overrule common English definitions, otherwise the rules are pointless as they would be meaningless outside of the D&D glossary defined terms. The common definition of harm includes injury so any effect that you commit on a target that causes injury (be it hit point damage, ability damage, ability drain, level drain, or any other similar effect) would constitute harm. As Tippy said, beyond that anything else is questionable because harm does, by definition, also include mischief. So expanding the definition in that direction would include things like pickpocketing gold coins or casting non-damaging spells on a target that cause a negative effect.

[Heliomance]

The fact that the word "harm" is subjective means it does need to be defined to be useful in rules text. Thus the reading that the second sentence of the ability is a clarification of exactly what is meant by "harm". It is an entirely logically valid position.

[TuggyNE]

Damaging spells without attack rolls still count as attacks? I know they count as aggressive actions for the purpose of things like Invisibility, but I didn't think they were attacks. And harm isn't defined anywhere.

For what it's worth, invisibility calls those attacks, not aggressive actions. Thank you, WotC thesaurus!

[eggynack]

For what it's worth, invisibility calls those attacks, not aggressive actions. Thank you, WotC thesaurus!
I just noticed that invisibility also has something of a definition for causing harm indirectly . It seems a bit ambiguous though. Like, if you were to cut a rope in a rope bridge with an aleax on top of it, would the aleax take damage? I figure that the harm has to be direct somehow, rather than being indirect. On the other hand, falling damage could be considered something other than the aleax's target, and therefore can't harm it. I suppose that an exception could be made if the source of the indirect harm is the aleax's target, so the target cutting the rope bridge would deal damage. This is a pretty confusing issue, but it seems clear that the definition of "attack" is far more expansive than an attack roll.

[Juntao112]

What if I made remarks that cast doubts on the aleax's parentage?

[eggynack]

What if I made remarks that cast doubts on the aleax's parentage?
The aleax would remind you that its parentage is nothing short of divine, and your attack would be rebuffed, dealing no emotional damage.

[Lightlawbliss]

might I recommend this (rather interesting) discussion be moved to it's own thread.

also: this is really coming down to dm interpretation of a list of things.

[eggynack]

might I recommend this (rather interesting) discussion be moved to it's own thread.

also: this is really coming down to dm interpretation of a list of things.
But... it's the only thing anyone's talked about for like two pages. I dunno. The more I read these threads, the more I see them as fluid. Things often divert down ridiculous roads like this one, and those roads are often far more unrelated to the main topic than this one. Sometimes they come back to the main topic, like how we ended up talking about casting in armor for a bit, but I don't know if it's that important. Also, the aleax thing is pretty cool, I think. You see enough threads descend into bear puns, or recursive AMF hats, or paladin deity restrictions, and figuring out how invulnerable a wizard is while in aleax form seems practically right on topic.

[Rakoa]

might I recommend this (rather interesting) discussion be moved to it's own thread.

also: this is really coming down to dm interpretation of a list of things.

Moving the discussion is not needed because it isn't a discussion. This is more of a reason why you don't argue with Tippy, ever. He is called Emperor for a reason.

[Threadnaught]

Moving the discussion is not needed because it isn't a discussion. This is more of a reason why you don't argue with Tippy, ever. He is called Emperor for a reason.

If Tippy came into one of my games as a fellow player, I would look to him for advice because, Tippy = Win.
If Tippy were my DM, I know I would be in for a good time no matter what we did because, Tippy = Win.
If Tippy were a player I DMed for, I'd be keeping a close eye on him and try to keep the entire party on their toes in the hopes that A: He doesn't completely break my game every time he opens his mouth and B: When he decides to awesome. It's awesome. Because... Have you read his sig?

I actually wanted to say something about how I'd have the discussion with him if I DMed for him, but I think he's more who my player (that ******* Druid) wants to be, rather than another version of my own player. Curse you and your Tippyness, Tippy. (because "awesomeness" doesn't cut it)

[Rakoa]

Yeah, that about sums it up. Tippy does equal win. My graphing calculator supports it.

[Pickford]

Yeah, but couldn't the aleax's target give it a haircut, and then not kill it? There seems to be a nice potential window between the aleax's bodily mutilation, and the aleax's death, in which you would have an aleax body part. That window could theoretically be infinite, if you kept the aleax trapped somehow. You wouldn't make your diety very happy, but the body part is clearly attainable. Also, if the aleax kills the victim, what happens to the aleax's body parts? It doesn't say that they disappear in that case, so a third party could get fancy aleax body parts. As a sidenote, I find it amusing that your objection here and heliomance's objection are mutually exclusive.

How did you plan on keeping the aleax trapped? It's not even subject to subdual damage, so one cannot, by definition, subdue it.


An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity....After the decree is spoken, the aleax attacks without quarter or mercy. No discussion or plea is heeded.

So that rules out any gathering of a body component.

Tippy:
It is impossible to have a scroll of ice assassin 'of x', those don't exist, only scrolls of ice assassin.

Also, given that an aleax is, until it exists, an imaginary creature, it's also as useful as wishing for a scroll of ice assassin of [ insert imaginary creature here ]

You could as well wish for a scroll of ice assassin of an ice assassin, or of cookie monster.

If no being Pickford exists within the game universe, then what do you think happens when one wishes for a scroll of ice assassin of pickford? Answer: Nothing, because it is by definition impossible.

The soiaa issue resolves itself identically.

Juntao112:
This:

An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity....After the decree is spoken, the aleax attacks without quarter or mercy. No discussion or plea is heeded.

Tippy: Oh I do, but I also consider it important to dispel myths unsupported by fact. For example, the idea of a scroll of ice assassin of an aleax.

[ahenobarbi]

Tippy:
It is impossible to have a scroll of ice assassin 'of x', those don't exist, only scrolls of ice assassin.

This is incorrect.


Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.)

Ice assassin has material component of 20'000gp worth of diamond dust and ice statue of the creature to be duplicated (with a bit of the creature to be duplicated).

So creature to be duplicated is decided during Ice Assasin scroll creation.

[eggynack]

How did you plan on keeping the aleax trapped? It's not even subject to subdual damage, so one cannot, by definition, subdue it.


I dunno. Get it into an anti-magic field, tie it up, take away its spell book, make sure not to prepare any spells that can get you out of the exact situation you're creating, and then remove a body part of some kind? You can come up with better things than that too. How about imprisonment. That leaves it alive in a hole forever. Does he have a way around that one? If he does, then some other method. Seriously, tricky but doable.

[Pickford]

This is incorrect.



Ice assassin has material component of 20'000gp worth of diamond dust and ice statue of the creature to be duplicated (with a bit of the creature to be duplicated).

So creature to be duplicated is decided during Ice Assasin scroll creation.

Quaint, but the scroll is itself an impossibility which renders your point invalid.

If the materials are non-existing, the scroll cannot happen. It's like trying to make an ice assassin of a non-existing god. Because the god does not exist the scroll can't work, the spell itself presupposes the thing being recreated actually exists within the game universe. As this thing (the aleax of the character) does not actually exist, neither can the scroll.

Edit:
Eggynack:
How does the anti-magic zone help here?

[Heliomance]

How did you plan on keeping the aleax trapped? It's not even subject to subdual damage, so one cannot, by definition, subdue it.

Forcecage, quintessence, Use Rope... there are many, many ways to incapacitate a creature non-lethally.

[eggynack]

Eggynack:
How does the anti-magic zone help here?
Presumably, the aleax has your spells, and your spells are presumably capable of doing terrible things to your body. An anti-magic field gives you some time to do capturing things. I suppose the aleax could resist that, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that it's physically possible to keep the aleax in a living yet not dangerous state. The fact that you can't literally subdue it is irrelevant.

[ahenobarbi]

Quaint, but the scroll is itself an impossibility which renders your point invalid.

Nope. My point was that you can wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin of a specific creature (which was already explained by Emperor Tippy in this thread).

[Heliomance]

Everyone's missing the other fact that if you somehow manage to destroy the thing outside of battle it doesn't disappear. So it is possible - just hard - to keep a dead aleax.

[eggynack]

Everyone's missing the other fact that if you somehow manage to destroy the thing outside of battle it doesn't disappear. So it is possible - just hard - to keep a dead aleax.
That doesn't seem like a thing I would argue, even if I had thought of it. I can't really think of any way to destroy an aleax in some context that doesn't involve combat. I suppose, if you were theoretically capable of dominating him, which you can't, and ordered him to start stabbing himself... it still doesn't work because the aleax can't hurt itself as per the singular enemy ability. Unlike the incapacitating indefinitely strategy, I don't see a single way to do this that doesn't involve an odd definition of combat. I don't think combat has a really stable definition, so this looks like more trouble than it's worth, argument-wise.

[Heliomance]

That doesn't seem like a thing I would argue, even if I had thought of it. I can't really think of any way to destroy an aleax in some context that doesn't involve combat. I suppose, if you were theoretically capable of dominating him, which you can't, and ordered him to start stabbing himself... it still doesn't work because the aleax can't hurt itself as per the singular enemy ability. Unlike the incapacitating indefinitely strategy, I don't see a single way to do this that doesn't involve an odd definition of combat. I don't think combat has a really stable definition, so this looks like more trouble than it's worth, argument-wise.
Supervillain style deathtrap.

[eggynack]

Supervillain style deathtrap.
Could a super-villain style deathtrap even kill the aleax? It's not you who is killing the aleax, so a deathtrap might not be able to kill it. More importantly, if the aleax struggles at all, couldn't it be considered to be "battling" against your deathtrap? It's just about physically impossible to stop an aleax from struggling. I'm not saying that these are necessarily the correct readings. I'm just saying that we shouldn't use arguments through definition when the simpler argument through basic logic is readily available. Any argument based on terms that aren't directly defined in text threaten to go on for infinity pages, while mine is basically just about finished. You tie him up, cut off an earlobe, dig a hole, put the aleax in the hole, and fill in the hole. He'll live forever, trapped underground. Imprisonment cuts the process down to removing his pinkie and casting imprisonment. Simple, easy, argument finished.

[Pickford]

Nope. My point was that you can wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin of a specific creature (which was already explained by Emperor Tippy in this thread).

Yes, a specific, creature that must exist, by definition. There's no such thing as a 'non-specific' creature within the context of ice assassin.

Thus the aleax is a specific aleax. If said aleax does not, in fact, exist, neither can the scroll. edit2: This also of course requires the caster to have severely angered a deity.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

edit: Heliomance, the Aleax can shapechange at will, not even a standard action. Forcecage, among other things, is useless.

edit: Eggynack: How do you tie up something that can shapechange to be any size? I don't think that's even possible.

[eggynack]

edit: Eggynack: How do you tie up something that can shapechange to be any size? I don't think that's even possible.
Aha! The anti-magic field comes into play at last. Also, seriously, imprisonment. It doesn't look like a maneuver that the aleax has invulnerability to, and the aleax will be trapped eternally in a bubble of suspended animation while you get to use his useful body parts for devious purposes.

[Pickford]

Aha! The anti-magic field comes into play at last. Also, seriously, imprisonment. It doesn't look like a maneuver that the aleax has invulnerability to, and the aleax will be trapped eternally in a bubble of suspended animation while you get to use his useful body parts for devious purposes.

Not a terrible idea, but it requires melee touch, the aleax 'has' it if you do, and the Aleax has spell resistance, so there's a 50/50 chance it won't work even if you did win initiative which is unlikely given that the Aleax has your initiative +1.

Again, not saying it's terrible, but it seems more dangerous to you than you can be to it.

[Sith_Happens]

AFB right now, but I think an Aleax's Shapechange ability is actually (Ex).

[eggynack]

Not a terrible idea, but it requires melee touch, the aleax 'has' it if you do, and the Aleax has spell resistance, so there's a 50/50 chance it won't work even if you did win initiative which is unlikely given that the Aleax has your initiative +1.

Again, not saying it's terrible, but it seems more dangerous to you than you can be to it.
It doesn't have to be anywhere near effective. It could be a plan that only works .01% of the time and your claims would be invalidated. Your arguments rely on the idea that it's physically impossible to obtain a piece of an aleax. It is not physically impossible to obtain a piece of an aleax, so your argument is proven wrong.

[eggynack]

AFB right now, but I think an Aleax's Shapechange ability is actually (Ex).
It's actually (SP). I checked before I posted the AMF thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

It always seemed to me that aleax (plural?) exist at the whim of the gods, and as a useful tool, the gods would clamp down pretty hard on any mortals that tried to pull this kind of divine carjacking. But I suppose that's the point of TO: doing stuff that a DM would normally (and rationally) have repercussions for, but since there's no DM...:smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

It always seemed to me that aleax (plural?) exist at the whim of the gods, and as a useful tool, the gods would clamp down pretty hard on any mortals that tried to pull this kind of divine carjacking. But I suppose that's the point of TO: doing stuff that a DM would normally (and rationally) have repercussions for, but since there's no DM...:smallbiggrin:
How're the gods gonna do anything to stop me? Send an aleax? They can't, cause I just trapped him! Muahahahaha!:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

How're the gods gonna do anything to stop me? Send an aleax? They can't, cause I just trapped him! Muahahahaha!:smallbiggrin:
They'll send a double aleax, which are used to hunt down rogue aleaxes, of course.

[eggynack]

They'll send a double aleax, which are used to hunt down rogue aleaxes, of course.
They can't. They can only send one aleax at a time, and he's trapped in suspended animation underground. Fwehehehehe.

[Flickerdart]

They can't. They can only send one aleax at a time, and he's trapped in suspended animation underground. Fwehehehehe.
The restriction on one aleax at a time doesn't apply to double aleaxes, naturally. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

The restriction on one aleax at a time doesn't apply to double aleaxes, naturally. :smalltongue:
Well, that's when the wizard casts imprisonment on the double aleax, after cutting off his finger of course. That way he can make make an ice assassin of the elusive double aleax. Double aleaxes are like aleaxes, except they're even more valuable creatures to break the game with. Either that or the wizard could just kill the double aleax regular style. It doesn't necessarily have to be an infinite chain of aleaxes imprisoned miles beneath the earth's surface in suspended animation. It'd just be funny were that the case.

[Raven777]

But then you risk incuring the wrath of the dreaded Triple Aleax!!!

[eggynack]

But then you risk incuring the wrath of the dreaded Triple Aleax!!!
That's the plan. Triple aleaxes are actually even more exploitable than double aleaxes. Every aleax is even more exploitable than the one before. Echechechech.

[Flickerdart]

The best way to cut off an aleax chain is to revive the first one, and then Mindrape it to pursue the nth aleax. Then you have an arbitrarily large number of immortal creatures running around the world all hell-bent on destroying the next one in line.

[Raineh Daze]

The best way to cut off an aleax chain is to revive the first one, and then Mindrape it to pursue the nth aleax. Then you have an arbitrarily large number of immortal creatures running around the world all hell-bent on destroying the next one in line.

That sounds like an awesome plothook/backstory.

Get it up to about 100,000 and you can have an age-ending apocalyptic battle type thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Gnaeus]

No, the triple aleax is the most insidious. He just shows up at your tower, empties your liquor cabinet, and amuses himself watching your crystal ball and making annoying comments until you promise to stop violating the natural order. And you never get the smell out of your sofa, not even with wish.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, the triple aleax is the most insidious. He just shows up at your tower, empties your liquor cabinet, and amuses himself watching your crystal ball and making annoying comments until you promise to stop violating the natural order. And you never get the smell out of your sofa, not even with wish.

Best to just burn the sofa, then.

[Phelix-Mu]

This conversation got silly in a hurry.:smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Best to just burn the sofa, then.
Do you really want to deal with the bone-chilling creaks and spring-rattling of a sofa ghost?

[Pickford]

It doesn't have to be anywhere near effective. It could be a plan that only works .01% of the time and your claims would be invalidated. Your arguments rely on the idea that it's physically impossible to obtain a piece of an aleax. It is not physically impossible to obtain a piece of an aleax, so your argument is proven wrong.

Yes, but that doesn't immobilize the Aleax in any way that allows interaction. Which is a necessity for the plan.

[iDesu]

Yes, but that doesn't immobilize the Aleax in any way that allows interaction. Which is a necessity for the plan.

Just cover it in quintessence and expose enough of the aleax to get a clipping of hair. Simple, effective, and you don't have to worry about the aleax any longer.

[Pickford]

Just cover it in quintessence and expose enough of the aleax to get a clipping of hair. Simple, effective, and you don't have to worry about the aleax any longer.


You can smooth a dollop of quintessence around any extremely small object.

And you propose to completely immerse a medium sized creature...how? (Sure, it's a psionic only possibility, but I'm intrigued)

[Emperor Tippy]

And you propose to completely immerse a medium sized creature...how? (Sure, it's a psionic only possibility, but I'm intrigued)

It's an instant duration power. You cast it a bunch and fill up a container with it. Read the full text of the power.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm

[eggynack]

Yes, but that doesn't immobilize the Aleax in any way that allows interaction. Which is a necessity for the plan.
Why is that necessary for the plan? It's a plan with two phases. Phase one: cut off part of the aleax. He can do this in an anti-magic field, or after tying him down, or whatever. That part's done. Phase two, you dismiss the field and cast imprisonment. It's really pretty trivial to, at the very least, come up with some ridiculous circumstance under which the wizard could obtain an aleax piece on a permanent basis. It's harder to come up with a likely circumstance under which the wizard could obtain an aleax piece, but that's nowhere near being a requirement, if having the theoretical possibility of an aleax piece was ever a requirement in the first place. I'm honestly doubtful that it was, but if it was, then it seems to have been proven that an aleax piece is theoretically obtainable.

[Rakoa]

And you propose to completely immerse a medium sized creature...how? (Sure, it's a psionic only possibility, but I'm intrigued)

I would spend a couple months filling my Portable Hole with the stuff. Then when the angry monster is running at me all I have do is round a corner and set the hole down.

[Pickford]

It's an instant duration power. You cast it a bunch and fill up a container with it. Read the full text of the power.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm

Ok, and now the wet blanket:

The Aleax has all your possessions and as a 'deity' sent it I don't believe could be surprised by this tactic.

[Flickerdart]

Ok, and now the wet blanket:

The Aleax has all your possessions and as a 'deity' sent it I don't believe could be surprised by this tactic.
Whether or not it's surprised by the quintessence isn't terribly relevant - by the time you're applying it, the aleax is already subdued through whatever other means you would normally use.

Ultimately, this bean-counting isn't relevant, since as mentioned before, the likelihood of a particular approach is not as important as the possibility that it might work, thus making "piece of aleax" an item that can exist.

[Pickford]

Whether or not it's surprised by the quintessence isn't terribly relevant - by the time you're applying it, the aleax is already subdued through whatever other means you would normally use.

Ultimately, this bean-counting isn't relevant, since as mentioned before, the likelihood of a particular approach is not as important as the possibility that it might work, thus making "piece of aleax" an item that can exist.

Unfortunately, we haven't resolved subdual, so it's still impossible.

[eggynack]

Unfortunately, we haven't resolved subdual, so it's still impossible.
What? Why? Why can't we just cast imprisonment or do the quintessence thing? Those seem like really not impossible plans.

[fireinthedust]

Congradulations. You managed to cast spells while wearing a piece of armor for +5 AC.

Unfortunately, while that's impressive for your group in particular, on any optimization forum, that is remarkably unimpressive, to be honest. Alter Self into a Lizardfolk gives you the same armor bonus, requires no feats, and can be used to stack with other armor.

If you want to see what breaking a Wizard looks like, look at some of Emporer Tippy's posts. In fact, let me save you the effort.


Note that this loop also grants you infinite wishes if you spend more time turning into a Zodar.


Why would you be a separatecreature for the Zodar wish merely because you change forms back and forth? You'd be the same zodar, as you're you. Otherwise casting permanent shape change would give unlimited free casting provided you had a given creatures form. Misinterpretation.

[Pickford]

What? Why? Why can't we just cast imprisonment or do the quintessence thing? Those seem like really not impossible plans.

1) Imprisonment wouldn't allow access to the creature. So that's why that's out.

2) Quintessence, only a psion approach, requires time to apply and wouldn't stop the aleax as a whole at any given point. Without the aleax 'already' subdued it's not going to work.

[eggynack]

1) Imprisonment wouldn't allow access to the creature. So that's why that's out.

2) Quintessence, only a psion approach, requires time to apply and wouldn't stop the aleax as a whole at any given point. Without the aleax 'already' subdued it's not going to work.
But you just cut off the finger before imprisoning him. I thought that was obvious, especially because I keep saying it.

[Pickford]

But you just cut off the finger before imprisoning him. I thought that was obvious, especially because I keep saying it.

One does not just cut off the finger of an aleax

(pretend I'm boromir)

Seriously though...'how' were you planning on getting this finger in a cutting off position?

edit: What's to stop the Aleax from imprisoning you while you're trying to immobilize it?

[eggynack]

One does not just cut off the finger of an aleax

(pretend I'm boromir)

Seriously though...'how' were you planning on getting this finger in a cutting off position?

edit: What's to stop the Aleax from imprisoning you while you're trying to immobilize it?
To the first question, anti-magic field, tie him up, cut something off. To the second question, he attempts it, but you make your save, or he doesn't try it, or you use some third defense. Seriously, "he just fails" is a reasonable answer when you just have to prove that something is possible. We're basically assuming that the aleax always rolls 1's, and the wizard always rolls 20's, just at the outset.

[Juntao112]

Why would you be a separatecreature for the Zodar wish merely because you change forms back and forth? You'd be the same zodar, as you're you. Otherwise casting permanent shape change would give unlimited free casting provided you had a given creatures form. Misinterpretation.

Are any of us really us? Can you step in the same river twice? If Theseus' ship is maintained through the ages by replacing the rotten planks with new ones, is it truly the same ship?

[nedz]

When you step in the river your feet get wet. After you step out and dry them and then step back in, your feet get wet again.

[Lightlawbliss]

One does not just cut off the finger of an aleax

(pretend I'm boromir)

Seriously though...'how' were you planning on getting this finger in a cutting off position?

edit: What's to stop the Aleax from imprisoning you while you're trying to immobilize it?

The whole idea of all these arguments is a wish can make something that COULD exist. Even if we are relying on thousands of nearly impossible occurrences for it to exist, it can exist so wish can make it.

it doesn't madder if no intelligent person would ever do what it has to do, that choice could be made so we could say it is made for a possible occurrence.

[Turion]

Why would you be a separatecreature for the Zodar wish merely because you change forms back and forth? You'd be the same zodar, as you're you. Otherwise casting permanent shape change would give unlimited free casting provided you had a given creatures form. Misinterpretation.

Actually, I don't think so.


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.

If you changed back into the same zodar, it would be unique (i.e. the same one you were the round before). Since it specifies nonunique, though, I think we can safely say you have full access to the SLAs.

[Philistine]

Why would you be a separatecreature for the Zodar wish merely because you change forms back and forth? You'd be the same zodar, as you're you. Otherwise casting permanent shape change would give unlimited free casting provided you had a given creatures form. Misinterpretation.

If you like, you can argue that you shouldn't be able to do this. But all the spell has to say on the matter is "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form," so the other reading requires less stretching of meaning.

[Phelix-Mu]

Are any of us really us? Can you step in the same river twice? If Theseus' ship is maintained through the ages by replacing the rotten planks with new ones, is it truly the same ship?

Wouldn't it suck if, after your polymorph effect expires, you turn back into some other wizard?:smallmad:

[TuggyNE]

Why would you be a separatecreature for the Zodar wish merely because you change forms back and forth? You'd be the same zodar, as you're you. Otherwise casting permanent shape change would give unlimited free casting provided you had a given creatures form. Misinterpretation.

Shapechange cannot be made permanent. It can be Persisted, but that's non-trivial.

Whether shapechange even grants Spells as such is not certain, but that's a separate issue from Sp or Su abilities.


Wouldn't it suck if, after your polymorph effect expires, you turn back into some other wizard?:smallmad:

"Now I know how I'll fix those lousy T1s in my game!" :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

Shapechange cannot be made permanent. It can be Persisted, but that's non-trivial.

Well it can be made permanent in a few ways (and be made to have a duration so long that it may as well be permanent in a few more) but all of them require varying levels of cheese.

[White_Drake]

Okay, Shapechange cannot be made permanent, unless you're Tippy.

[Acanous]

What I'm getting out of this is: You can wish for a Scroll of Ice Assassin: Aleax (You).

[Phelix-Mu]

Just goes to show, if the gods are going to use some monster from your worst nightmare to hunt you down across time and space, they shouldn't publish its stats.:smallamused:

Also, fluff-wise, and a nice bit of early-edition legacy, I'd make all zodar unique beings, like titans. And not even to avoid these kind of shenanigans, but to enforce the fluff that they are mysterious constructs that roam the multiverse for inscrutable purposes. If any wizard could just gate one and interrogate it (or otherwise figure out what it was and where it's from...only slightly more than trivial), then mysteries like this wouldn't exist. Ergo, they shouldn't be subject to spells of this kind, and making each "unique" (a meaningless term in-game) is a decent way to accomplish this.

But that's just house rules. TO, you can win D&D. PO, your friends won't like you much anymore. Hard to keep playing when the wizard already won.

[eggynack]

I don't think that's what "unique" means at all. I'm pretty sure it means that you can call up any one of the individually unique zodar (zodars?) but you can't gate in Jeff the zodar and expect results.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't think that's what "unique" means at all. I'm pretty sure it means that you can call up any one of the individually unique zodar (zodars?) but you can't gate in Jeff the zodar and expect results.

And therein lies the problem. "Unique." Does it have a game meaning? No, really, Tippy, tuggyne, anyone, enlighten me, please. It will save me much re-writing of spells that, as written, are very silly indeed.

To the best of my admittedly non-comprehensive knowledge, "unique" is a holdover from the days of 2e, and is now only used haphazardly to refer to one-of-a-kind creatures, things with unique abilities that don't belong to what is very colloquially known as a "race." Things that leap to mind are the Tarrasque (not unique depending on setting), Dalmosh (MM5?), and some devils and demons of great power (though some sources also give them divine ranks, which disqualify them from many of the suspect spells and effects for other reasons).

In short, "unique" in 3e is poorly defined, and aside from given examples, you can't reliably generalize at all. My personal interpretation is that "unique" encompasses both one-of-a-kind critters and members of mythic races like titans, where each has specific (yet often unmentioned) powers that distinguish it from others of it's kind. I feel that the flavor of titans being a near-extinct race of creatures with quasi-godlike powers, each with a "sphere of influence" (which is admittedly 2e flavor, AFAIK), also is well-suited to extending to zodar, who should appear in a campaign as more of a plot-related npc than a one-off combat challenge.

But whatever, it's all a hash, really. RAW lets my character travel to the dawn of the universe via redundant cycles of spell clocks/infinite power points/self-resetting traps of x and y that move entire bounded planes to a time before time was time, and there change the nature of words such that "unique" = "boytoy," and is valid target for ability x or y. Proof? RAW laughs at such empirical standards. As we've seen, RAW wishes for a scroll of ice assassin of proof, mindrapes it into mindswitching itself with it's aleax or some such, and now the aleax of the ice assassin of proof is invulnerable.

/rant

[Pickford]

To the first question, anti-magic field, tie him up, cut something off. To the second question, he attempts it, but you make your save, or he doesn't try it, or you use some third defense. Seriously, "he just fails" is a reasonable answer when you just have to prove that something is possible. We're basically assuming that the aleax always rolls 1's, and the wizard always rolls 20's, just at the outset.

I'm suggesting there's no way you, being the same as the aleax, but weaker, can overpower said aleax within the anti-magic field. As nothing but you can actually touch it.

Given that anti-magic field can't easily pursue the aleax, I could see it, on its turn, easily escape the field and transform, at will, into say, a zodar and wish your field out of existence, then at will transform into something that can insta-gib you.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm suggesting there's no way you, being the same as the aleax, but weaker, can overpower said aleax within the anti-magic field. As nothing but you can actually touch it.

In the AMF it's only marginally stronger than you, so you just need better luck on your grapple rolls.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can just time lock the Aleax. Nothing like freezing your enemy in time for the next hundred million years without ever allowing him a save or SR. Or any kind of defense roll for that matter.

[Pickford]

In the AMF it's only marginally stronger than you, so you just need better luck on your grapple rolls.

The aleax doesn't have to cast anti-magic field though, so on its turn it could turn into something you can't (anti-magic field) and then fry you from range.

You know, like always wizards do to monks.

edit:

Tuggyne, the point is that if a single character uses shapechange and then operates an ability with a cooldown, that cooldown remains in force and prevents the use of the same ability even if the character subsequently shapes out of an back into the same form.

[TuggyNE]

I'm suggesting there's no way you, being the same as the aleax, but weaker, can overpower said aleax within the anti-magic field. As nothing but you can actually touch it.

No way at all, ever, under any circumstances? Because that just doesn't seem plausible for a near-mirror-match. No, odds are certainly against anyone targeted by an aleax, but not so severely as all that. It's more like a 30-40% chance of winning, not a 0% chance; sure, it's unpleasant, and pretty scary, but saying "heh, no, there is no way you can win" just isn't true.


Tuggyne, the point is that if a single character uses shapechange and then operates an ability with a cooldown, that cooldown remains in force and prevents the use of the same ability even if the character subsequently shapes out of an back into the same form.

I fully support this as a common-sense houserule; in fact, it's in RACSD, and I'm even the one who suggested it. But I am not at all convinced that there's any RAW support for that, which is why I think it needs to be a houserule. Barring that reasonable houserule, i.e. for TO discussion purposes, it would unfortunately seem that infinite Zodar wishes are perfectly possible. Or if not, I'd like to see the RAW that forbids that.

[iDesu]

I fully support this as a common-sense houserule; in fact, it's in RACSD, and I'm even the one who suggested it. But I am not at all convinced that there's any RAW support for that, which is why I think it needs to be a houserule. Barring that reasonable houserule, i.e. for TO discussion purposes, it would unfortunately seem that infinite Zodar wishes are perfectly possible. Or if not, I'd like to see the RAW that forbids that.

Even if it's ruled you only get one wish per year no matter how many times you transform into a zodar can't the entire issue be side-stepped by using your wish to get a candle of invocation LE and abuse the efreeti for free wishes?

[Emperor Tippy]

Even if it's ruled you only get one wish per year no matter how many times you transform into a zodar can't the entire issue be side-stepped by using your wish to get a candle of invocation LE and abuse the efreeti for free wishes?

Just Wish up a CL 44+ Scroll of Gate and then Shapechange into a Lilitu before using said scroll to bring in 2+ Solars. Have one Wish you up another such scroll and have the other Wish you up whatever you want.

Lilitu is because it has the ability Item Use (Ex) which allows it to auto succeed on the scrolls UMD check.

[Vaz]

Well it can be made permanent in a few ways (and be made to have a duration so long that it may as well be permanent in a few more) but all of them require varying levels of cheese.

Outside of greater consumptive field, i'm lost. Help?

[Phelix-Mu]

Just Wish up a CL 44+ Scroll of Gate and then Shapechange into a Lilitu before using said scroll to bring in 2+ Solars. Have one Wish you up another such scroll and have the other Wish you up whatever you want.

Lilitu is because it has the ability Item Use (Ex) which allows it to auto succeed on the scrolls UMD check.

Ah, wow. Yeah, shapechange and the polymorph line generally never fail to amaze me. Alter self is about the right level of power-per-spell for me. After that, I'm pretty much house ruling out the catchall spells and doing one form per spell, and...well, goodness knows how to nerf shapechange without deleting it totally.

I am 100% grateful that none of my players is a wizard-type, and the other casters in the group lack the patience necessary for anything more complicated that blasting and save-or-die. Or at least, I'm the only one in the group with wizard tendencies (good thing I usually DM...mwahahaha...or intentionally don't play casters with the other less-experienced DMs).

[Emperor Tippy]

Outside of greater consumptive field, i'm lost. Help?

Technically the only way to get Shapechange with a duration of Permanent is to get an entity with the Salient Divine Ability Alter Reality to do so (that SDA can make any spell in the game permanent). The easiest RAW way to do this is to make an Ice Assassin of a deity that has Alter Reality.

If you want an arbitrarily long duration then you can just Wish up a scroll of shapechange at CL 100 trillion or so (using any of the Wish methods that let you avoid the XP cost) and then shapechange into a Lilitu so that you can auto make the UMD check to use it. This is practically permanent.

Or you can take seven levels of Cosmic Descryer (epic PrC) and then have Delay Death cast on your before using Cosmic Connection and taking an arbitrarily large amount of HP damage in exchange for an arbitrarily large bonus to CL on the next spell you cast (Shapechange).

Of course you might also want to recast Delay Death with a similarly boosted CL because going positive after being at -100 trillion HP without dying is a bit difficult.

[Vaz]

Eh, without Ice Assassin shenanigans, or epic or deific rules i'll stick with self stacking perisisted GCF which is a cleric only tactic without mass scroll access (short of xpless wishes) Neat though, should do a bit more looking into such.

Is there anyway to abuse an Aleax in gaining Ex abilities? Like a Master Transmogrifist or anything?

[georgie_leech]

Technically the only way to get Shapechange with a duration of Permanent is to get an entity with the Salient Divine Ability Alter Reality to do so (that SDA can make any spell in the game permanent). The easiest RAW way to do this is to make an Ice Assassin of a deity that has Alter Reality.

If you want an arbitrarily long duration then you can just Wish up a scroll of shapechange at CL 100 trillion or so (using any of the Wish methods that let you avoid the XP cost) and then shapechange into a Lilitu so that you can auto make the UMD check to use it. This is practically permanent.

Or you can take seven levels of Cosmic Descryer (epic PrC) and then have Delay Death cast on your before using Cosmic Connection and taking an arbitrarily large amount of HP damage in exchange for an arbitrarily large bonus to CL on the next spell you cast (Shapechange).

Of course you might also want to recast Delay Death with a similarly boosted CL because going positive after being at -100 trillion HP without dying is a bit difficult.

As long as you're being cheesy, couldn't set up something like a contingent ressurection (or similar) and just let yourself die normally then get back up? I might be missing something, but I can't find anything that says spells cast on you end if you die.

[Emperor Tippy]

As long as you're being cheesy, couldn't set up something like a contingent ressurection (or similar) and just let yourself die normally then get back up? I might be missing something, but I can't find anything that says spells cast on you end if you die.

Finding a DM willing to let spell effects like that last beyond death is iffy. Although RAW is technically silent on the issue iirc.

[Frosty]

Ah, wow. Yeah, shapechange and the polymorph line generally never fail to amaze me. Alter self is about the right level of power-per-spell for me. After that, I'm pretty much house ruling out the catchall spells and doing one form per spell, and...well, goodness knows how to nerf shapechange without deleting it totally.

I am 100% grateful that none of my players is a wizard-type, and the other casters in the group lack the patience necessary for anything more complicated that blasting and save-or-die. Or at least, I'm the only one in the group with wizard tendencies (good thing I usually DM...mwahahaha...or intentionally don't play casters with the other less-experienced DMs).You should check out what Pathfinder did to Polymorph spells (and Wildshape too). Much less powerful now.

[eggynack]

The aleax doesn't have to cast anti-magic field though, so on its turn it could turn into something you can't (anti-magic field) and then fry you from range.

You know, like always wizards do to monks.

Yes, but it fails. It always fails. All the time no, no matter what, always. The aleax uses sub-par tactics. He tries to engage you in melee, or he doesn't know what your best spells are. A reasonable situation could be one in which the aleax tries to fly away, the wizard makes an AoO, and attempts to frigging grapple, because the aleax is always rolling in the most sub-optimal way possible. The aleax gets close enough to touch the wizard, the wizard activates a contingent AMF, and then he starts trying to tie down the aleax. He succeeds, because he always succeeds.

Monks might actually have a shot at winning those fights if he always rolled 20's, the wizard always rolled 1's, and if the monk were always using superior tactics. Y'know that thing, where you talk about theoretical maximum damage, and I say it's pointless? This is the time and place for that. Can you come up with literally always, all the time, forever, zero situations in which the wizard could cut off part of the aleax? Seriously man, use your imagination. All he has to do is get the piece, because the next step is imprisonment, and we're done. I've come up with a whole bunch, and I see no reason why they couldn't theoretically work. There are a whole bunch of reasons why they couldn't probably work, but it doesn't matter. If it's only incredibly difficult to get a piece of the aleax, rather than impossible, then that's your answer right there.

[Pickford]

Yes, but it fails. It always fails. All the time no, no matter what, always. The aleax uses sub-par tactics. He tries to engage you in melee, or he doesn't know what your best spells are. A reasonable situation could be one in which the aleax tries to fly away, the wizard makes an AoO, and attempts to frigging grapple, because the aleax is always rolling in the most sub-optimal way possible. The aleax gets close enough to touch the wizard, the wizard activates a contingent AMF, and then he starts trying to tie down the aleax. He succeeds, because he always succeeds.

Monks might actually have a shot at winning those fights if he always rolled 20's, the wizard always rolled 1's, and if the monk were always using superior tactics. Y'know that thing, where you talk about theoretical maximum damage, and I say it's pointless? This is the time and place for that. Can you come up with literally always, all the time, forever, zero situations in which the wizard could cut off part of the aleax? Seriously man, use your imagination. All he has to do is get the piece, because the next step is imprisonment, and we're done. I've come up with a whole bunch, and I see no reason why they couldn't theoretically work. There are a whole bunch of reasons why they couldn't probably work, but it doesn't matter. If it's only incredibly difficult to get a piece of the aleax, rather than impossible, then that's your answer right there.

Sorry, you're arguing that a deity whose intelligence outstrips that of any wizard would fail to comprehend what the best spells are?

That doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test.

[Raineh Daze]

Sorry, you're arguing that a deity whose intelligence outstrips that of any wizard would fail to comprehend what the best spells are?

That doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test.

I think this has reached the point where you're arguing that because you don't think this should be possible, everyone else is wrong and there is no way to achieve it by RAW. :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

I'm arguing like, a billion different things. Only one of them has to be true. Such is the nature of things. You could even only prepare spells that have saves, under the assumption that you magically make every single save. You also prepare anti-magic field, so that you can tie up the aleax while he's unable to shapeshift. You could also just cut off some of his hair, which might not require helplessness on the aleax's part.

Edit: Note, by magically making every single save, I don't mean that you cast a spell or wear magic items to make the saves. You could go in with a +0 in every save for all I care. I'm just assuming that the wizard rolls a 20 on every single solitary one, because that's my prerogative. It's like, imagine that instead of Schrodinger's wizard being a theoretical construct who is always in the right environment for the spells he selected, he's actually real. If I want to, I could even essentially spontaneously cast off the wizard list under the assumption that I prepared my spells in a perfectly optimal manner. It kinda conflicts with the version where I assume that I control the aleax's casting in a way which only gives him spells with a saving throw, but we're spit-balling here.

[Juntao112]

Sorry, you're arguing that a deity whose intelligence outstrips that of any wizard would fail to comprehend what the best spells are?

That doesn't even come close to passing the sniff test.

So you're saying that if we had a wizard of sufficiently high intelligence...

[eggynack]

So you're saying that if we had a wizard of sufficiently high intelligence...
:smallbiggrin: Well played. We could also assume a god of sufficiently low intellect, if one of those exists.

[iDesu]

:smallbiggrin: Well played. We could also assume a god of sufficiently low intellect, if one of those exists.

Considering what goes on in the realms I'm sure quite a few of them exists.

[Pickford]

:smallbiggrin: Well played. We could also assume a god of sufficiently low intellect, if one of those exists.

Touche, but the question then becomes: what god are you 'targeting' to make it send an aleax after you? Also the Aleax 'is' the base creature effectively, so if you thought of it, the Aleax did too. (Heck, it 'has' your possessions)

[eggynack]

Touche, but the question then becomes: what god are you 'targeting' to make it send an aleax after you? Also the Aleax 'is' the base creature effectively, so if you thought of it, the Aleax did too. (Heck, it 'has' your possessions)
I suppose that the deity is relatively irrelevant then, as the aleax is being assumed to have the same intelligence as you do. You can't really have it both ways. Either way, I think I've come up with more than enough ways to pull this off. It's hard to do, but it's not that hard to come up with good methods.

[Marnath]

I suppose that the deity is relatively irrelevant then, as the aleax is being assumed to have the same intelligence as you do. You can't really have it both ways. Either way, I think I've come up with more than enough ways to pull this off. It's hard to do, but it's not that hard to come up with good methods.

Strictly speaking, you could get a friendly deity to create one for you under circumstances where it has no chance to fight back.

[eggynack]

Strictly speaking, you could get a friendly deity to create one for you under circumstances where it has no chance to fight back.
I honestly doubt that any deity would give up their only aleax on a permanent basis for your benefit. I guess you could theoretically take the finger, and then the deity recalls the aleax, but I don't know how any of that would really play out. It's all in a kinda vague theory-space. Granted, we're already there if the we're designing an impervious wizard, but still.

[Threadnaught]

Touche, but the question then becomes: what god are you 'targeting' to make it send an aleax after you? Also the Aleax 'is' the base creature effectively, so if you thought of it, the Aleax did too. (Heck, it 'has' your possessions)

And if you have no possessions, but have a team willing to lend you stuff?

Please don't tell my the Aleax clones them too.

[TuggyNE]

And if you have no possessions, but have a team willing to lend you stuff?

Please don't tell my the Aleax clones them too.

Note, also, that systematic team buffing is effective as well, because the Aleax can't duplicate that either.

[Zombulian]

What is this thread even about anymore?!? :smalleek: