OOTS #889 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Saph]

Wow. Elan's useful. :smallbiggrin:

[crichelle]

Awesome sauce! Just like he did in SSDT!

[CRtwenty]

Wow, nice character growth for Elan. I feel bad for him though, realizing that a lot of what he wants is impossible.

[Rizban]

Hard to believe it was Elan who figured it out, but then again, he is the one with experience casting illusions.

[Marelt Ekiran]

Perhaps Roy was wrong and Elan, despite his low intelligence score, does actually have a decent wisdom score. This required quite a bit of insight on his part.

Which also made it even sadder. Abandoning a major amount of his optimism and naive outlook on life must have been a major step for him.

[Benhazar]

Okay I thought that was going to end much more tragically than it did. Back to the quest!

[Morty]

I didn't expect Elan to be the one to figure it out, but, as usual, it makes sense in hindsight.

[Don Ohnic]

I love the unswirling effect...

Well played, Giant.

[pearl jam]

Points to anybody who said Elan's improbable fantasies would be the tipping point.

Double points to anyone who thought Elan would be the first to be tipped off. :smallbiggrin:


Once again, the Empress of Blood was hilarious. :smalltongue:

[treyh37]

should've known elan would figure it out, since he knows tropes so well as a bard. thought belkar was the one to do it since he died in the vision. course belkar may still be enthralled in his own private vision since we don't see his eyes in the last panels

[B. Dandelion]

I want to give Elan a hug even more than usual. Like look how far he's come, it's sweet but it's so sad to have to come to terms with your family being so fundamentally messed up.

I laughed out loud at that final panel, especially when that exact argument almost word-for-word was indeed trotted out on the boards here as evidence Xykon and Redcloak were illusory. It was a good point... then and now.

[pearl jam]

Perhaps Roy was wrong and Elan, despite his low intelligence score, does actually have a decent wisdom score. This required quite a bit of insight on his part.

Which also made it even sadder. Abandoning a major amount of his optimism and naive outlook on life must have been a major step for him.

Even a character with a low Wisdom score can occasionally experience a moment of enlightenment. We have had several examples of this with Belkar as well.

[Scizor]

Thing is, Elan does actually have a decent Wisdom score. So it's not completely out-of-character for him to notice these things.
Props for the "disillusionment" effect. The rippling looked cool, as did the rest of the strip.
Also, this strip proves, or at least supports, the theory that they were in a shared illusion. Now, WHAT HAPPENS TO BELKAR?

[Marelt Ekiran]

Even a character with a low Wisdom score can occasionally experience a moment of enlightenment. We have had several examples of this with Belkar as well.

Yeah, never mind. I suppose that even a character with a low score rolls a 20 sometimes.

Oh, by the way, Giant... A small spelling mistake.

"We worked hard and acheived our goals."

[Obscure Blade]

I notice the interesting fact that we still haven't seen anything about what's happening with Belkar, even after the illusion is broken. I wonder if the illusion wasn't broken for him? He wasn't at the "wedding" for Elan to talk into breaking free after all.

[Giggling Ghast]

And genre-savviness wins the day again.

Methinks Belkar is still stuck, though.

[The Recreator]

Wow. I was definitely expecting Elan to be the one to break them out of the illusion, but with a Bardic Lore check on the appropriate timing of a "happy ending illusion" instead of a realization that his "happy ending" may not be a feasible one.

Bravo.

[Cikomyr]

I have had a thought reasoning:

We understand that Belkar's death is part of the group's most inner desire. Which is why he probably had a dreamscape different than the rest of the party.

Which means he probably had his own hallucination of his most inner desires realized.


Now the question of truth:

Do we want to witness Belkar's most inner desires?

[Xzenu]

Awesome episode. Elan is really cool when it's about storytelling. The intelligence versus wisdom dichotomy aside, Elan does have a quite specialized intellect. And he's really good at his specialty.

[Alaris]

Wow, I think Elan figuring it out is the most believable. He's the most trope-savvy... everyone else just went along with the flow.

[quasit]

Amazing!
Elans knowledge about illusions and narrative structure timely paid off!
Feel a bit sad for him, as a child-man as he is, must be hard to realize that most of the things he craves for just cannot be. Also :durkon: dead as a doornail, aye.
:smallfrown:

[RMS Oceanic]

My earlier post:


Assuming that the Order is not rescued from without - someone like V coming along and dispelling the illusion or something causing them to snap to their senses - it would be interesting to speculate on who is the first to break the spell and why.

Least likely is Roy, because of his lawful tendency to accept the situation as presented. Belkar would be an interesting choice. Perhaps the runes can't comprehend what his Lotus fantasy would be like and basically stop working on him. Also the question of whether it works on Cats is brought up, and Mister Scruffy would possibly attempt to rouse Belkar.

Which leaves us with Haley and Elan. Rationally Haley is the one most likely to suspect a bluff, and could definitely think that whatever good thing is happening is too easy for them. Elan could also use his sense of narrative flow and realise what just happened makes no narrative sense. However I think if Elan breaks the spell, it would be for a different reason.

Picture this: Regardless of whether they're in a shared dream or each in their own world, I think Elan's fantasy would include Tarquin and Nale coming along and giving an almost-believable-if-you-don't-think-about-it explanation for how they're going to give up their evil ways and get down to spending time with him...and this is the deal breaker. In this scenario, as much as Elan would like a big happy family, I believe he has matured enough as a character to realise it isn't going to happen, not like this anyway, so that's what breaks the spell. I am hoping that Elan gets to pull off a win of some sort in this Pyramid, given the already high costs they've sunk into this conflict.

This is close enough for me to say called it! :smallcool:

Good job Elan. Pretty bittersweet that he admits this to himself, but it's a wonderful piece of character development.

[Mido]

*pumps fist*

Yes, bard to the rescue. Ok, it's good that they finally snapped out of it, but Belkar's still off-frame, and so is everything else. I can't bare to look at what's beyond that frame.

*tries to peek*

Dammit, the suspense is killing me! :smalleek:

[Guancyto]

Dammit Giant!

The hero giving up the perfect life because it's not real and he has things to do is right about my favorite sequence in every work it happens.

I hate you forever for doing this to us.

I'm not crying, I swear.

[Mono Vertigo]

Elan got character development when I wasn't looking?! Aww yeah!
... he still deserves a hug for acknowledging his dreams will never happen, though. :smallfrown:

[Jeremias]

Do we want to witness Belkar's most inner desires?

Yes.

Have you seen TF2's Meet the Pyro? I imagine it might be something like that, except with less lollipops and more blood.

[Mr.Rictus]

My earlier post:



This is close enough for me to say called it! :smallcool:

Good job Elan. Pretty bittersweet that he admits this to himself, but it's a wonderful piece of character development.

Yup, you definitely called that one. Go elan go! :)

[Azukar]

I knew they kept Elan around for something! I wonder if he's seen the most significant character arc over the course of the story?

Also, love the large panel with the illusion snapping. Brilliant.

[tcrudisi]

Elan got character development when I wasn't looking?! Aww yeah!
... he still deserves a hug for acknowledging his dreams will never happen, though. :smallfrown:

No, but now he can have a realistic dream that can happen.

[pearl jam]

Several people are attributing Elan's ability to see through this vision to genre-savvy and trope awareness. I don't think that Elan used either of those things to break out of this illusion, however. All his observations that lead to his revelation were based solely on knowledge he had about the character and motivations of his friends and family members. The only reference to such fourth wall breaking reasoning came in the last panel and served as the punch line, not Elan's reason for disbelieving the illusion.

[Obscure Blade]

The only reference to such fourth wall breaking reasoning came in the last panel and served as the punch line, not Elan's reason for disbelieving the illusion.It's not really fourth-wall breaking, since like his Dad Elan is firmly convinced that's how his world works.

[talkamancer]

Yay! He's participating.

[cc_kizz]

I'm happy to see that Belkar is still standing. We'll see if that means what I think it means…

Oh, and yay for Elan contributing. :D

[Anarion]

While some of this was bard genre savvy, I think it shows a lot of maturity and growth in the character. Breaking the illusion required him to admit that his family had problems and he couldn't just fix them all.

Also, Haley's swirly dress into normal clothing is a really beautiful panel and the overlay effect works perfectly.

[ZerglingOne]

Woooow. A three-fer. Brave sir Thumb must be working better! It's like a full week's worth of comics in one, and the effect at the end was quite cool, up there with Holy Word.

An excellent comic as always! :D

[mistformsquirrl]

Poor Elan <;_:> *big hugs fictional stick figure guy* I know how ya feel.

[Sunken Valley]

loving the rapid update speed.

[Nenec]

Wow, wasn't absolutely expecting this, I kept thinking either Belkar or Mr Scruffy would have broken it, V in the worst case. I love Elan more and more at every panel, he's have such a strong character growth. And yeah, I as well think his Bardic Lore abilities helped him out in this, among all.
And I'm happy to see Belkar is still alive, and apparently just not sharing the same vision. Maybe the theory of that one illusion being shared only by good aligned characters was right? I really hope we get to see Belkar's one as well, at this point!

[ThirdEmperor]

And this is why Bard is Tier 1.

[Gidion]

Nice comic:) I don't think the giant get enough credit for his art sometimes the last panel is awesome:)
Also nice inception vibe. I wonder how long (from there point of view in the illusion) they were away.

[Nymrod]

I have to say Mr Giant, the level of your art evolution keeps astounding me. Bravo!

[Coliumbos]

It pains me to say this but...

All hail Elan.

GOD OF THE METAGAME.

[pearl jam]

It's not really fourth-wall breaking, since like his Dad Elan is firmly convinced that's how his world works.

Crediting his realization to genre-savvy or trope knowledge is attributing his success to his ability to break the fourth wall, and the point I was trying to make is that I don't think that's what was done here. Whether or not the last panel actually breaks the fourth wall is actually irrelevant to my argument. The last panel is, however, the only possible place you could cite in support of the idea that he broke through the illusion using either of those attributes.

[B. Dandelion]

My earlier post:
This is close enough for me to say called it! :smallcool:

Good job Elan. Pretty bittersweet that he admits this to himself, but it's a wonderful piece of character development.

That's actually more like "dead-on" than "close-enough". Excellent call indeed.

[Trixie]

Looks like Elan was first to try and make will save. So much for Roy's much touted Wis, looks like Bard bonus easily outweighs it :smalltongue:

On a side note, Belkar appears still alive, and I wonder if it turns out OotS was surrounded by LG or some sort of guardians in meantime.

[pearl jam]

snip


That's actually more like "dead-on" than "close-enough". Excellent call indeed.

Wow! I missed that post until it was quoted. Points and double points, indeed! Nicely done! :smallsmile:

[blueblade]

Beautiful. Some classic OOTS right there. Absolutely everyone played their parts perfectly, with a nice helping of exposition from Elan, all in a bumper update, filled with jokes.

This is why I read OOTS.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.. maybe the illusion is going to work in our favour now? Linear guildies trapped?

[RMS Oceanic]

Also concerning the final panel, it's interesting that Roy looks disoriented upon returning to reality while Elan and Haley are okay. Possibly his more structured mindset makes it more difficult to suddenly shift from one to the other?

[Ninja]

I wonder how Roy will react to Elan figuring it out first, since I get teh feeling he still thinks Elan is useless.

[Miraqariftsky]

Well done, sir Giant. Well done.

[Yendor]

Bravo, Elan!

I was hoping this was where the sequence was headed. I couldn't believe Elan would still be that deluded, after everything that had happened.

[Niknokitueu]

Poor Elan. Having to realise that your dreams cannot come true, no matter how much you want them to.

Nice comic, Rich. Nice visualisations, nice character development. Poor Belkar.. :d

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Trixie]

Perhaps Roy was wrong and Elan, despite his low intelligence score, does actually have a decent wisdom score. This required quite a bit of insight on his part.

Why decent? Bard has good Will save, Fighter has poor, even Elan having Wis 10 with Roy having Wis 16 doesn't really bridge it.


Have you seen TF2's Meet the Pyro? I imagine it might be something like that, except with less lollipops and more blood.

So Belkar is young girl? :smallconfused: :P


And this is why Bard is Tier 1.

You mean Tier 3-4, right? :smallconfused:

Unless someone devised broken 'I grasp at straws' CO way to give him wizard spells, spell list alone disqualifies him.

[Morquard]

Wow awesome tripple comic!! Yay!

And Elan saves the day, who would have known your stupid, childish wishes would ever be useful for anything?!

I do wonder how Belkar feels about getting killed in the first round of combat and never raised...

Maybe he got a different illusion, where he got his hearts desire? But everybody else shared an illusion why not him? Or maybe deep down he wishes he was dead?

[Tev]

DOUBLE FANTASY!!

This strip was perfect. Art, jokes, character growth and especially the moving "My family is screwed up" realization by Elan . . . impressive work, Giant.

[Dracon1us]

While some of this was bard genre savvy, I think it shows a lot of maturity and growth in the character. Breaking the illusion required him to admit that his family had problems and he couldn't just fix them all.

Also, Haley's swirly dress into normal clothing is a really beautiful panel and the overlay effect works perfectly.

he just broke my hearth when he said "my family is screwed up, magic won't fix it" :smallfrown:

[MelTorefas]

After the intense disappointment that was most of the second half of Sword Art Online, I really needed an OotS installment. Thanks, Giant! :D

I really really love that it was Elan who got them out if it.

[Lorin]

Woah. Tripple strip. Then did we get the last one? And it was awesome. Well played, Elan. Well played.

[gerryq]

I thought it was going to go more Ubik! Still, it's a plausible enough twist. Girard did not expect any of his trap victims to have such childish fantasies that the illusions became unsustainable!

The other risk to the trap was perhaps that the victims' fantasies would be incompatible. But we do see what happens in this case. Either the illusion split in two and we didn't see Belkar's part, or the weaker part just gets suppressed. Maybe Belkar will tell us. Or could it be that whoever gets squeezed out dies?

Belkar seems to be on his feet in the last but one panel. But we didn't see him in the last. And the swirlies don't surround him.

I think it's just possible he is dead standing up.

Or (more likely I suppose) he is still in a fantasy and has to be woken.

[Lkctgo]

It would be quite sad if Belkar dream-world was just for him to seek acceptance by the party, or maybe even turn neutral-good. But knowing Belkar, he's sipping champagne and smoking poorly worded legal documents!

[LasVegasLawyer]

Giant, you magnificent bastard. Plot development, character development, and cool art. And the throwaway jokes from EoB and Sabine are awesome. Well done, sir.

[thatSeniorGuy]

It's already been said, but that last panel is fantastic!

And thanks Giant for the triple strip!

[sam79]

What a strip. I knew there was a reason Elan was my favourite character. Awesome stuff.

[Ornithologist]

I'm a tad worried for Belkar, since he is off panel and we don't know his status. My guess is that he died on his feet

[Domino Quartz]

Wow. Okay. Elan was awesome in this one. I mean, it is sort of just the classic "Wait...this can't be real, things are too perfect.." reaction to a LEM that's been seen a lot in other fiction before, but I think it was well enough executed here not to be a cliche. A nice combination of Elan's Genre Savviness and character development.

[Killer Angel]

Elan is my Today's Hero.

And the visual effect of the final panel is gorgeous.

[Obscure Blade]

A possible detail of significance: you can just see behind the word bubbles in the last panel that the runes are still glowing, implying that the spell is still active. Does that mean Belkar's still stuck in it? Or that they'll have to repeatedly yank themselves out of a new illusion every time they fail a save?

[Math_Mage]

Girard's failure was that he did not expect any of his victims to strive for the unattainable. His cynicism did him in. How very fitting.

[oppyu]

:elan:: "What's real... is that my family is screwed up and broken. And it's not going to just get magically fixed, ever."

... A MILLION HUGS FOR ELAN. NOW.

[warmachine]

Superb! This leaves the question of what happened to Belkar. In the shared delusion, Belkar was hit by a Meteor Storm whilst low on blood, making it reasonable for everyone to think he died, including Belkar himself. The mind affects the body, so Belkar should have died for real, yet he was still standing when we last saw him.

Perhaps Belkar is in his own, separate delusion? Perhaps he's in a bizarre standing coma?

[Tricia]

And the visual effect of the final panel is gorgeous.So very much this. Between that panel and two updates ago, I'm absolutely floored. Simply amazing. It's things like this that I love to show to people that scoff at OotS as "just a stick figure comic". Only a few other comics I read could likely manage to pull off an effect that stunning and effective.

And that combined with Elan's significant character growth...this is absolutely one of my favorite OotS updates ever.

[hamishspence]

Awesome character development for Elan.

Also- minor spelling error- "acheived" when it should have been "achieved".

[sam79]

:elan:: "What's real... is that my family is screwed up and broken. And it's not going to just get magically fixed, ever."

... A MILLION HUGS FOR ELAN. NOW.

+1 Hug for Elan. The writing and the art in these pages is awesome.

[nihil8r]

clearly belkar is in his own separate illusion where he has is own cooking reality show

[Obscure Blade]

clearly belkar is in his own separate illusion where he has is own cooking reality showHah, I can see that!

:roy: "Who knows what hideous bloodthirsty fantasy world he's living in?"

<In Belkar's Fantasy>

"And welcome everyone to today's episode of...Mithril Chef!"

[OctoberRaven]

I was actually thinking we'd see the dreamworld a little longer...

Also, I'm kind of surprised that neither of them picked up that Elan's Mother wasn't given a name. Or perhaps her name IS Elan's Mother?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

WOW! Triple Strip, and Elan saves everyone by breaking the illusion with logic!

Of all the people, it was Elan who thought his way out of the illusions.

Mindboggling.

[Kami2awa]

One question....

How long were they in the illusion? Did it pass in real time (with some kind of magical means of life support for the Order to prevent them dying of dehydration)? If so, what's been happening outside... we might be about to see the Xykon-dominated world.

[Roland Itiative]

So, Elan, with his genre savviness, is the one to break the illusion... That's cool. Doing so by realising his family is dysfunctional, when the illusion itself was cast by a man with a pretty crazy paranoid family? That's the cherry on the top.

I wonder if Belkar will still be stuck in the illusion, though, since they have no way to reach him inside of it.

[sam79]

One question....

How long were they in the illusion? Did it pass in real time (with some kind of magical means of life support for the Order to prevent them dying of dehydration)? If so, what's been happening outside... we might be about to see the Xykon-dominated world.

I'm guessing a while, but not as long as it would take for all the things in Illusion World to actually have happened. Hours, rather than days/weeks/months, I would guess. But we'll not find out for sure until the next update.

[ilsinopeo]

I think Belkar is still trapped in the illusion/enchantment, because, being "dead", he could not hear Elan rationale.

[zimmerwald1915]

I was actually thinking we'd see the dreamworld a little longer...
Me too...or rather, I was hoping we would out of a petty, childish desire to watch the "filler" crowd squirm. Good thing the real world doesn't cater to petty, childish desires, huh? :smallredface:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[AngryHobbit]

Thought illusion would last longer.
Now I wonder - whats happening with Belkar?

[VestigeArcanist]

Elan saving the party with his high will save and ridiculous childish dreams. Good job. :smallbiggrin:

[Copperdragon]

Cool "The Illusion Dissolves" effect.

[Kish]

Me too...or rather, I was hoping we would out of a petty, childish desire to watch the "filler" crowd squirm. Good thing the real world doesn't cater to petty, childish desires, huh? :smallredface:
Clearly, when the filler crowd's squirming passes a certain point, you will be able to recognize that you are trapped in an illusion.

[spruce56]

I have had a thought reasoning:

We understand that Belkar's death is part of the group's most inner desire. Which is why he probably had a dreamscape different than the rest of the party.

Which means he probably had his own hallucination of his most inner desires realized.


Now the question of truth:

Do we want to witness Belkar's most inner desires?
Just an odd idea that I think is highly unlikely: but perhaps we just did - after Belkar's statement that hurting people is all that he's good for, perhaps he has abruptly started to wish for something more, like actually helping the Order. Not sure where that would leave him, though, if he believes the group illusion that he was killed in the attempt.

...Although surely Belkar's ideal future would include Scruffy's survival...scratch that theory, on consideration, it's pretty weak.

Maybe the illusion is dictated by majority vote - Roy, Elan, and Haley all want nice futures for each other, so whatever Belkar envisioned was overruled?

[Turgon9357]

I'm concerned that Belkar isn't going to be as easy to wake up. As others have suggested, if in his mind he is already dead and gone, he wouldn't have been at the wedding when the others logicked their way out.

-or, alternatively-

Maybe someone will suggest that they just leave Belkar, as a kind of last mercy to him. It still seems early for Belkar to shove off, so the idea would probably get shot down by the other two, but it would demonstrate where the party's thinking is regarding Belkar.

[Filippo]

Can't wait for next update! Curious about Mr Scruffy and Belkar's fate!

About Elan: rules wise Charisma means a lot of "self awarness" and empaty.
Our favorite bard also never took himself too serious, and actually always try to give a hand to people he likes, with few personal desires for the long term.

Early Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)

He was the worst victim possible, considering the designed target of the trap: self centered, always-trusting-themselfs people with clear objectives and faith in their success (paladines, evil overlords, powerful adventurers)

Also amazing graphics from The Giant and perfect timing too; the illusion lasted just enough in terms of strips

[Themrys]

Do we want to witness Belkar's most inner desires?

I don't, as there's a good chance that it's either "killing lots of people", or perverted fantasies about Vaarsuvius.

Or he gets his own cooking show, yes, but I guess he'd kill some people there, too.

[HandofShadows]

No, but now he can have a realistic dream that can happen.

His happy ending I hope.

[J-H]

Low-will save maybe negative-wisdom Elan rolled a 20!

[Xelbiuj]

Roy had the best lines.

So, what, we're still there?
We're not at a wedding, we're just standing around in a dungeon in the middle of the desert?

Ah hell. We are aren't we?

Just saying it out loud . . . with their history it'd have to be true.

[factotum]

Bravo, Giant! That strip was absolutely awesome, and it's nice to see Elan being their saviour for a change.

[ManuelSacha]

Yup. We got it right.
It was a collective dream.
Most of the things they did were a collective target of the group, and then they took turns to realize their own personal goals, but the others were part of that fantasy, too.

It is surprising, and heart-warming, to see that Elan is the one to break the enchantment. I'm really liking the bard in this last chapter.

Now I just want to see how Belkar will react to this. Will he be pissed at his comrades? Will he be fatalistic accepting that they all expect him to die soon and dont' care? Will he be wishing that he really died???

[Breccia]

Shared illusion, I was wrong.
Elan breaks the spell, I was wrong.
We didn't get to see Belkar's vision. Jury's still out on that one.

Swinging, at best, 1 for 3 here and still enjoying it. What's next?

[joela]

Elan continues to be the hero. Well done.

[Pory]

And once more, Rich answers (almost) all our questions and rebuts some wacky theories :smalltongue:

Btw, can Greater Dispel Magic "wake" Belkar from his illusion :smallconfused:?

[Obscure Blade]

Or he gets his own cooking show, yes, but I guess he'd kill some people there, too.Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html), probably.

[Stabbey]

Okay, I admit that after #888, I was worried that the fantasy segment might end up dragging on for a couple more weeks, showing all the different fantasies of everyone else in detail.

I was wrong, that was setup for this fantastic comic, and it gave some really, really great character development for Elan. Amazing work, Giant.

[elros]

I like how this comic shows character growth while advancing the plot. I also like the Belkar is still alive. I really think Belkar will have character growth, too, since he will find out what his true desire is. After all, he was really rattled by Durkon's death, and he even admitted that "hurting people is the only thing I'm good at." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html)

[Ewig Custos]

If that's the case, and in the next strip we'll actually see some progress, I'll take my words back, because that would mean that this elanish nonsense was a beginning. If not, I will be a little disappointed. Not for long. But I will be.
I take my words back. last strip was a good one.
And 889 is great too. Never expected Elan to crack this.

[DolGrenn]

Why do I have a feeling that getting out of one of Girard's master illusions can't possibly be that easy :confused: ?

Hate to say it, but I'm gonna be questioning a lot that goes on in the next couple strips :wink: .

[Sakgeres]

Does expectation also contribute to the illusion, such that the combined effects of 1) the expectation of everyone that Belkar will die soon due to his low health and 2) the desire of Roy (and Haylay?) of Belkar's death is greater than Belker's wants to survive?

If one dies in one's illusion what will happen? Limbo? haha

[Salbazier]

Go Elan! :smallbiggrin:

And, wow, Elan's character development. I'm torn between :smallfrown: and :smallbiggrin:

[i6uuaq]

Can I just say I don't think they're out of the woods yet.

We can't see what's going on around them just yet.

[Hopeless]

So Girard the epic illusionist has been barded!:smallbiggrin:

Could their alignment have played a part in how hard it was to defeat that illusion?

After all currently only Roy is non-chaotic and last time I checked Girard was definitely Chaotic in alignment... could that have played a part?

[Rasputin]

I don't, as there's a good chance that it's either "killing lots of people", or perverted fantasies about Vaarsuvius.

Or he gets his own cooking show, yes, but I guess he'd kill some people there, too.

I'd like to see it. We have reasons to think he'd return to his home village and I've always wanted to 'meet' Aunt Judy... The loss of a village is a small price to pay for an introduction to more of the Bitterleaf family!

[War-Wren]

Awesome looking strip!

I like how, as the trio gathers in the centre to discuss the problems with the world and Elan starts to rip it all apart, the background vanishes to simple grey; no steps, no wedding party, just a grey backdrop. Durkon wanders in, and then vanishes again, presumably the illusions last ditch effort to hold onto its victims.

Guess Roy's dizziness stems from his lawful nature and he found it difficult to adjust to the chaotic swirly-ness!

Very nice indeed :)

[Sakgeres]

I like how, as the trio gathers in the centre to discuss the problems with the world and Elan starts to rip it all apart, the background vanishes to simple grey; no steps, no wedding party, just a grey backdrop. Durkon wanders in, and then vanishes again, presumably the illusions last ditch effort to hold onto its victims.


I think we're looking at it sideways.. But even so the lack of backdrop counts :smallbiggrin:

[attriel]

Well, that beats the "It was all the dream of an autistic child staring at a snow globe" ending it threatened to be in 888!

*whew*

So .... how far back did we get illusioned up? And how many people?

Is Linear right behind them, also illusioned up? Is Durkon not really vamped?

No, I don't believe that, that would be too snowglobey :)

still, just because that's when we saw the hallway doesn't mean that's when they encountered the hallway ...

or double double DOUBLE fantasy!

OMG! I JUST DON'T KNOW!!! :smalleek:

[Sakgeres]

What is meant by "Double Fantasy"? :smallconfused:

[Ezekiel]

Simply awesome Giant! Kind of an awakening moment (in more than 1 way) for :elan:

[Whispri]

I'm guessing a while, but not as long as it would take for all the things in Illusion World to actually have happened. Hours, rather than days/weeks/months, I would guess. But we'll not find out for sure until the next update.
The problem I have with the accelerated illusion time idea, is that, well, wouldn't it make it easier for people to do what Elan just did? Quicker, certainly. Wouldn't it better for the defenders if the illusion played out at a more normal speed?

[RMS Oceanic]

What is meant by "Double Fantasy"? :smallconfused:

It was an illusion (or fantasy) within a wider world of medieval fantasy.

F A N T A S C E P T I O N

[Solauren]

Though on our favourite Halfling;

Belkar has lived his last breath.

He's going to come out with a new personality, and 'Belkar Bitterleaf will have breathed his last breath, ever'.

[Silverionmox]

Elan is useful? The illusion must be three or more levels deep.

[Qaanol]

Here are my thoughts as I read the comic, panel by panel.

889 Get Real

Thoughts from title: the illusion becomes less and less believable, then the last panel has one character disbelieve. Probably Belkar.

Panel 1
Wait, it'll have to be Elan who disbelieves.

Panel 2 - 5
Yup, definitely Elan going to disbelieve.

Panel 9
Noticing the scroll bar. Got a double comic here!

Panel 11
Okay, there is going to be a second page below. How will it end? Or continue? It will end with Elan disbelieving. But will he have to convince the others? And how? Will he use his own illusion spells to alter the others' illusions?

Panels 12-14
Yes yes yes!

Panel 15
Yes, Elan is trying to convince the others within the illusion. Will it work? Probably not.

Panel 17
Okay, I guess it really is a shared illusion.

Panel 18
Ooh, self-awareness. From Elan!

Panel 19
Checks scrollbar. Ooh, triple comic! Wait, is this going to be the end of the book? In any case, Roy is starting to disbelieve.

Panel 21
Yay! Objective self-inspection! …I mean "Aww, so sad."

Panel 22
Ooh, gutsy Elan, gutsy!

Panel 24
Okay, they are all starting to disbelieve, but will it be enough to get them out of the illusion? I still think it'll take some illusion spell-casting from Elan.

Panel 27
Yes, Roy gets a funny line!

Panel 28
Oh…they needed *everyone* to disbelieve *at the same time*…that is sneaky.

Panel 29
Totally in-character for Elan to say, totally in-theme for the comic, great look on Roy's face.

Belkar’s still a concern.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yes! This really was some truly beautiful character growth from Elan, and shows exactly how important the last comic was!

And Rich? I can't notice your injury at all; you're doing a fantastic job working with it.

[North_Ranger]

Well played, O cerebrally challenged one. Well played.

[stsasser]

Elan confessing that he knows his family is permanently broken hurt.

'When do we get to catch the bride? I'm hungry.' was ridiculously funny.

[Bedinsis]

What is meant by "Double Fantasy"? :smallconfused:

OotS is set in a world of dwarfs, elves and monsters, i.e. a fantasy world.
In the latest strip it turned out the events were an illusion of what the order wanted most of all, i.e. a fantasy.

Hence double fantasy.

[The Kind Knido]

I wonder if this means that Elan's vision has been fulfilled? I mean, he sort of had his happy ending at least. With what he said, he can't really have a proper and complete one anyways. I suppose he could have one with Haley, however, the illusion showed him what he most wanted.

Elan though. Damn good job breaking a master illusion. Didn't think he could see through a master illusionist like Girard.

[pendell]

I have a LOT of work to do and very little time to do it, but I HAVE to say ... this is an AWESOME, awesome comic. Perfect payoff.

One slightly sour note though.

Elan, figuring it out?

...

Did he put some points into INT at his last level-up?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[EmperorSarda]

And this is when I laugh at all those who thought the previous comics were just filler.

[The Kind Knido]

I have a LOT of work to do and very little time to do it, but I HAVE to say ... this is an AWESOME, awesome comic. Perfect payoff.

One slightly sour note though.

Elan, figuring it out?

...

Did he put some points into INT at his last level-up?

Respectfully,

Brian P.


As previously stated in this thread and the comic, he knows all about story cliches and has some points in illusion himself, so it makes perfect sense for him to destroy it.

[EmperorSarda]

Elan, figuring it out?


Sometimes you score high on your will save. And sometimes, knowing the rules of drama and how things work and how drama works gives a massive circumstance bonus.

It is totally in character for Elan to catch the illusion.

[Gnome Alone]

Did any other titans of maturity and taste think for a split-second that Haley's dress dissolving in the illusion-dispelling panel kinda looked like it was supposed to be her farting? No, just me? Ok, I'll show myself out. Lousy immature subconscious.

[Glich]

Question what did Belkar see while the rest of them were in the fantasy we were watching? The happy hunting grounds afterlife or something like it?

[Jay R]

I not that we haven't yet seen the one member of the party with ridiculously low CON, and previous wounds. So I have two questions waiting for further strips.

1. How long have they been there fantasizing?

2. In his current condition, how long would it take Belkar to die of starvation or dehydration?

[nogall]

Great comic. Some thoughts:

- Regarding the art on the last panel and Belkar:

Also, Haley's swirly dress into normal clothing is a really beautiful panel and the overlay effect works perfectly.
After I read your comment, I noticed that Belkar is not part of the "swirly effect", which I think is another tip to show that he didn't break from the illusion.

- That's an interesting theory:

Why do I have a feeling that getting out of one of Girard's master illusions can't possibly be that easy :confused: ?

Hate to say it, but I'm gonna be questioning a lot that goes on in the next couple strips :wink: .

The illusion gets epic when you think you broke the illusion, like a sort of meta-illusion?

- Good catch too:

I wonder if this means that Elan's vision has been fulfilled? I mean, he sort of had his happy ending at least. With what he said, he can't really have a proper and complete one anyways. I suppose he could have one with Haley, however, the illusion showed him what he most wanted.

Elan though. Damn good job breaking a master illusion. Didn't think he could see through a master illusionist like Girard.
I don't think it means it's been fulfilled, but I do think it's a vital step on this journey. He's beginning to realize what a true happy ending means - not a situation in which everything you want happens, but rather a situation in which the really important things might happen (defeating xykon, marrying haley), even though it has a high cost and there are many things that are beyond repair. Let's say it's a more "mature", realistic, but also fulfilling, happy ending.

- A little help for us non-native speakers: is there a pun or a joke in the empress line about catching the bride? Would it be because the normal is to catch the bouquet (the flowers) and she's going for the bride instead of the flowers?

- RMS Oceanic, congrats. You totally called it, impressive sir. :smallwink:

[RMS Oceanic]

Sometimes you score high on your will save. And sometimes, knowing the rules of drama and how things work and how drama works gives a massive circumstance bonus.

It is totally in character for Elan to catch the illusion.

It's not even the rules of drama. The primary inciting moment is his understanding of people, namely Nale and Tarquin. Accepting that they are as they are and how that precludes a happy reunification. It's a much simpler reason for rejecting the fantasy than thinking about the metaplot.

[Shining Wrath]

So Elan gets to be the smart, wise one who figures things out.

Well played, Giant.


Why do I have a feeling that getting out of one of Girard's master illusions can't possibly be that easy :confused: ?

Hate to say it, but I'm gonna be questioning a lot that goes on in the next couple strips :wink: .

Why start now? Maybe the illusions started when they hit the front steps of the pyramid ... and Durkon is still alive, and Vaarsuvious isn't really history's greatest mass murderer, and so on.

Wheels within wheels, Dolgrenn.

[Joe the Rat]

Mmm... Will Save differences between Elan (good will save, probable negative stat modifier) and Roy (poor will save, probable positive stat modifier) still favor Elan slightly... more so if Girard managed to add a bit of Anarchic quality to the illusion (as I'm sure "screw the Paladins" was part of his design throughout - angry and paranoid, he was). But none of this matters unless you have a reason to suspect something isn't right. Illusory walls only disappear if you have a reason to suspect they aren't really there. So mechanically, it's plausible. Y'know, if mechanics were the driving factor plotting the story. :smallamused:


Belkar’s still a concern.
My guess is that he is either still trapped in his "Him and Scruffy in the afterlife drinking single malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled from poorly worded legal documents with Shojo" illusion, Or he's (improbably) standing there with an "it's about damn time you shook it off" look.

[sabremeister]

In the illusion, Elan got Durkon back, but he didn't bother reviving Belkar. That means, deep down, Elan really wants Belkar dead.

If you look carefully at #886, you can see the colours starting to wash out in panels 7 and 8. I think, on reflection, I should have noticed the colour difference between the last panel and the ones immediately next to it and ascribed more meaning to the fact.

[The Kind Knido]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorn
I wonder if this means that Elan's vision has been fulfilled? I mean, he sort of had his happy ending at least. With what he said, he can't really have a proper and complete one anyways. I suppose he could have one with Haley, however, the illusion showed him what he most wanted.

Elan though. Damn good job breaking a master illusion. Didn't think he could see through a master illusionist like Girard.

---
Reply
I don't think it means it's been fulfilled, but I do think it's a vital step on this journey. He's beginning to realize what a true happy ending means - not a situation in which everything you want happens, but rather a situation in which the really important things might happen (defeating xykon, marrying haley), even though it has a high cost and there are many things that are beyond repair. Let's say it's a more "mature", realistic, but also fulfilling, happy ending.

Good points. I wonder how long it'll take before Elan fully matures? Though I wonder what effects Tarquin's relationship will have on Elan and Haley. The way things played out, Elan and Haley could have a good long talk about something and maybe temporarily end it to save the trouble of paining either of them during the quest. Maybe after Xykon is destroyed and the Snarl is either killed or sealed permanently, Elan will truly get his happy ending.

Or maybe The Giant will pull a Pirates of the Caribbean on us and get them married during the final battle.

[Valyrian]

I don't, as there's a good chance that it's either "killing lots of people", or perverted fantasies about Vaarsuvius.

Or he gets his own cooking show, yes, but I guess he'd kill some people there, too.
I was ambivalent before, but now I definitely want to see Belkar's illusion.

[Alias]

Elan is the only member of the party with a strong will save. While Roy might have around a +3 wisdom (remember the archon saying he had a high enough wisdom to be a cleric even if he isn't one) he has at most a +5 for class if he's 15th level. A bard at 15 level has a +9 for class so he's on par with Roy even with a -1 wisdom penalty. Haley and Belkar stand no chance at all.

(Yes, I know he has a couple of dashing swordsman levels in there, I'm going to assume that class also favors will saves to ward of the punny attacks of other dashing swordsmen).

[ZarDaranth]

I figured it would have been Elan to figure it out. Roy was too grief-stricken before the illusion hit to realize the little things at first, and we all know he's way too selfish to let his dreams pass by (approval from Eugene, Fighters being popular). Haley, given her crappy background, is essentially getting to wrap up every loose end in her life - fixing things in Greysky, vengeance against Tsukiko, getting filthy rich on more filthy lucre. She has no reason to question things, because she's finally getting happiness by doing good things.


Elan....doesn't have a streak of selfishness nor a long list of childhood pains to work through. I'd think it was some kind of homebrewed Bardic Knowledge check to see if Elan noticed that there was a zipper on the back of the monster (so to speak). I know none of us expected it, but Elan did put one and one together, and, for once, it didn't turn out to be pie.


(The Empress of Blood, Thog, and Sir Scrappy need to have an adventure. Or maybe a coloring book together.)

[Cuthalion]

When do we get to catch the bride? I'm hungry. :smallbiggrin:

So good.
Great job on the second to last panel. Now, the question is still, how long have they been standing there.

[Illsbane]

Good man, Elan. :) Good man!

This is a major moment of growth for Elan, and it should give Roy and Haley another reality check as to Elan's worth to the team -- and given the mission, to the world in general.

As to the foreshadowing, though, I think the rune trap was more an Enchantment than an Illusion thing. ;)

[Smolder]

Why isn't Belkar being shown in the last panel?

That's some ominous foreshadowing... and we know no one wastes foreshadowing like that!!

[Gnome Alone]

Would it be because the normal is to catch the bouquet (the flowers) and she's going for the bride instead of the flowers?

Yep, that's the joke. She has misinterpreted humanoid wedding customs, erring towards eating.

[Shatteredtower]

That. Hurt. Beautifully.


Clearly, when the filler crowd's squirming passes a certain point, you will be able to recognize that you are trapped in an illusion.

I have not said this often enough, but well played, Kish.

[allenw]

As to the foreshadowing, though, I think the rune trap was more an Enchantment than an Illusion thing. ;)

It falls well within the parameters of a "Phantasm" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion), which is a subcategory of Illusion.

[Zerobot]

Whoo! I was hoping it'd be Elan with his bardic godliness, but I had my suspicions that it could've been Roy or V. Or Haley. Or Belkar. ...Or the sending to Roy about Xykon.

Glad to see it was Elan.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's the most heartbreaking natural 20 ever.

[Umberhulk]

Well done, Giant. Not just for the strip - which was one of the better ones - but for all that has led up to it and made it one of the better ones. Perhaps you are the bard after all. And hooray for Elan!

[Holammer]

So the illusion was shared among all of them. Except Belkar, or was it? How will this affect him? Did he spend time in a perfect afterlife or will this leave a sting of betrayal? Stay tuned for #890 I guess? :smallbiggrin:

[Raineh Daze]

Elan, that was amazing. :smallbiggrin:

[Toper]

So, so good. Completely in character for everyone, a seriously moving speech by Elan... but now I'm tearing up. :smallfrown:

The whole thing is just perfect. Especially the last five panels, where Roy figures it out and the illusion breaks. No, especially the whole thing.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was hoping it would be either Elan or Belkar who would see through the illusion, but poor Elan...

[JSSheridan]

As previously stated in this thread and the comic, he knows all about story cliches and has some points in illusion himself, so it makes perfect sense for him to destroy it.

That's some of it, but as he says, just because it's what he wants doesn't make it good for his mother. And he's not so selfish to impose his will on someone else when it's not good for them.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This was amazing. Sad; touching.

Personally, i am just very glad. I was afraid that the OOTS would be in chains, or dehydrated, or.. well.

Mostly, i feared for Elan. If he had been killed by a force outside of the Illusion, one of the fiends, perhaps, while under the spell and believing it.. his story would have indeed found a "Happy Ending".. for him, at least..

So, actually, i am relieved.

[Adeptus]

Excellent story telling and pacing...

But what about the Belkster? :belkar:

[fan4battle]

Competent Elan for the win! :D
This was badass, I liked how it was handled. Also, I guess the Giant must have wanted to dispel some of the worries here, to make a 3-page update so soon after the last page.
And, probably it's been noted a lot of times, but the purple-y tint of the illusion world is in tune with Girard's magic aura, nice touch. :)

[SteveMB]

Why do I have a feeling that getting out of one of Girard's master illusions can't possibly be that easy :confused: ?

Well, they are fairly high-level characters.

Also, we don't know how much real time has passed. If they've been stuck for a few hours, that would have been long enough under normal circumstances (i.e. with the Girard clan actively guarding the gate) to incapacitate or kill them. Some kind of alarm probably went off at a now-unmanned guard post when the illusion trap triggered.

[Tragak]

:smallfrown: :smallfrown: :smallfrown: Elan :smallfrown:

This is the only song I could find that worked in the context and is depressing enough: Where Do We Go From Here ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer," Season 6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uz7I9g9ymY)

[ZarDaranth]

I know this is likely far too much speculation, but I would hope that part of the illusion was the fact that anyone who was either Lawful Good or had association with Azure City (Roy being LG, Haley having had fought on behalf of the city) would have had to make higher rolls to break the illusion.

Why? Because Girard was just that petty and hateful towards Soon.

[Ikialev]

My complaining has a comic-changing power
Let's try this again. Hey Rich, Xykon isn't dead yet, I get it, can we move on?

Good strip btw

[Procyonpi]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that Elan of all people made his will save? I know rich isn't big into exact DnD rules accuracy, but imagining this scene around a gaming table is pretty hilarious.

[SteveMB]

The problem I have with the accelerated illusion time idea, is that, well, wouldn't it make it easier for people to do what Elan just did? Quicker, certainly. Wouldn't it better for the defenders if the illusion played out at a more normal speed?

That could be the magic's way of glossing over excess detail -- even an master of illusion like Girard might not be up to the task of creating a spell that would flawlessly simulate long stretches of real time without cutting corners. Even with the corner-cutting, there were flaws that allowed Elan to break free.


Does anyone else find it hilarious that Elan of all people made his will save? I know rich isn't big into exact DnD rules accuracy, but imagining this scene around a gaming table is pretty hilarious.

I GOT A 20! :biggrin:

[EmperorSarda]

Don't think it has been more than a half hour. Take 10 minutes for the Linear Guild to summon their demons via Planar Ally/Planar Binding, and then some time for them to get down to the dungeon. So most likely not hours.

[Issabella]

It has probably already been mentioned (several times) but this really takes me back to an essential Moore Justice League Comic "What to get for the Man who has everything." Fantastic work Mr. Giant

[t209]

I think this is Elian's character development since he knew about the reality.

[Dr.Epic]

Elan is the one who saw through the illusion. Elan, not Roy. Are we sure Roy's really smarter then Elan?

[Shmuel]

Crediting his realization to genre-savvy or trope knowledge is attributing his success to his ability to break the fourth wall
No, it's not. It's attributing his success to his ability to know the way his universe works.

[Sockpuppet]

Wonderful comic, and Elan saves the day once more :elan:

[OverdrivePrime]

GO ELAN! :elan:
Also... poor Elan. :smallfrown:

This is a crushingly awesome update - I love that Elan's savvy is what saved the day (at least for the moment).

However, like many others I'm wondering about what's happening with Belkar. His face is conspicuously off screen. Is he still entranced, or is he working up a murder-rage?

[Morty]

Elan's seeing through the illusion had nothing to do with his mental ability scores, genre savviness or fourth wall breaking. He saw through it because he recognized his childish fantasy for what it was. And maturity isn't covered by the rules.

[SteveMB]

Another idea occurred to me on the "what about Belkar's death in the illusion" question:

Girard might have assumed, consciously or otherwise, that the intruding adventurers would harbor the same sort of internal conflicts that boiled over in the Order of the Scribble. If so, he might have taken advantage of it as a way of powering and targeting nasty effects (perhaps up to and including killing victims for real).

EDIT: If so, even if some of the targets break out, suspicion that so-and-so died because the rest of them wanted him to die might tear the survivors apart.... :smalleek:

[Mastikator]

And maturity isn't covered by the rules.

Also, the giant doesn't play by the rules.

On the subject of Belkar's fantasy, I think he did share them and his came true too. I think since he did some development he's becoming slightly less evil over time and now he has come to the tipping point where his conscience is starting to really hurt. We saw a little self loathing before they entered the room. Maybe what we saw was the tip of the iceberg.

[Eldest]

My complaining has a comic-changing power
Let's try this again. Hey Rich, Xykon isn't dead yet, I get it, can we move on?

Good strip btw

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm. Can't tell, I think it is, but the wiggle room caused me to comment.

In other news, I actually expected a few more comics in the illusion, especially with Belkar. Then again, since we haven't seen anything with Belkar yet, I'm guessing that I might still get what I thought was going to happen.

[Vreejack]

So the illusion was shared among all of them. Except Belkar, or was it? How will this affect him? Did he spend time in a perfect afterlife or will this leave a sting of betrayal? Stay tuned for #890 I guess? :smallbiggrin:

Seems Belkar has his very own side-illusion, which explains how he was dead in the other's. It makes a lot of sense that if you had the ability to generate separate illusions you would split his off. I do wonder though if perhaps his illusion is actually shared in that he believes he died and went into the great beyond. That would be very interesting indeed.

[Jay R]

Elan is the one who saw through the illusion. Elan, not Roy. Are we sure Roy's really smarter then Elan?

No. The reason Elan was able to see through it more easily than Roy or Haley is that (in Elan's words), "'Cause the goals you guys wanted were all pretty good ideas. But half of the stuff I wanted were stupid childish ideas that should never have happened. And they did anyway!!"

---

On an unrelated topic, perhaps Belkar isn't in the shared fantasy because he hasn't been in their ideas of the future for a while. They're just waiting for the clock to run out on him.

---

And by the way - do illusions of this sort work on animals?

[FlawedParadigm]

So the upshot of this is that Elan has gained yet another layer of understanding about the nature of illusions? This can only work out well for the Order later.

[EmperorSarda]

On an unrelated topic, perhaps Belkar isn't in the shared fantasy because he hasn't been in their ideas of the future for a while. They're just waiting for the clock to run out on him.


Belkar's not there because he thinks he should be dead. Belkar's not there because Roy and the others expect him to die as well.

[sims796]

Well, darn. I'da bet money on Vaarsuvius breaking them out.

[ManuelSacha]

No, Elan does NOT really want Belkar dead.
Roy? He just believes it was gonna happen anyway, and the halfling was low on hit points when the illusory battle started, so for Roy it was more a case of "realistic expectation" than a desire.
Who wanted Belkar dead, then? Belkar. It's not like it hasn't been foreshadowed a lot in the latest strips.

Elan really wanted all his friends to live (he is crying at Belkar's funeral).
Why did Belkar still die in the illusion? Because sometimes one has a stronger opinion about something than the other, and the illusion makes that one stronger desire prevail.
That's why, Elan explains, the Order didn't fight Tarquin's empire: Roy would have wanted to, but Elan wanted to NOT fight his father even more.

[sims796]

Elan's seeing through the illusion had nothing to do with his mental ability scores, genre savviness or fourth wall breaking. He saw through it because he recognized his childish fantasy for what it was. And maturity isn't covered by the rules.

Isn't that like, rolling a 20 on a round-by-round Will save?

[Ghost Nappa]

I read #889 and I had a thought out of left-field. Given Durkon's dying request to Malack, isn't it possible for the OotS to persuade Malack (and thus Durkon) to defect or at least stop supporting the Linear Guild?


Then I remembered Durkon's backstory prophecy and oracle answer and realized that he probably has to go on a Vampiric murderous rampage before he'll regain his free will/life.

[ZarDaranth]

So the upshot of this is that Elan has gained yet another layer of understanding about the nature of illusions? This can only work out well for the Order later.

Um, I dunno. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0776.html) I'll go with V and think that Elan's self-initiative tends to be haphazardly coincidental at best.

[Once a Fool]

A couple of things of note:

1: Elan reasoned his way out of this illusion. That, folks, is intelligence.

2: The runes on the wall in the last panel are still glowing.

[137beth]

That was awesome! Elan was the one to figure everything out, while staying perfectly true to his character.

[Xelbiuj]

A couple of things of note:

1: Elan reasoned his way out of this illusion. That, folks, is intelligence.

2: The runes on the wall in the last panel are still glowing.

Wisdom, reasoning skills don't apply a value to your dreams. Realizing that what was happening was childish, is wisdom.
2. Belkar

[NihhusHuotAliro]

This update happened too soon after last update.

I could have waited two more weeks at least for a new comic.

Also, darn, no fifty-page dream-arc.

[Dragonus45]

What if at that moment, Belkars's Deepest Desire was to die? Think about it.

[Kish]

Elan's seeing through the illusion had nothing to do with his mental ability scores, genre savviness or fourth wall breaking. He saw through it because he recognized his childish fantasy for what it was. And maturity isn't covered by the rules.

Isn't that like, rolling a 20 on a round-by-round Will save?
I think it's seriously reductionist, in a way that makes me understand what led Rich to declare he wished he'd never made the comic beholden to the D&D rules, to look at the reasoning Elan presents in the comic, and sum it up as, "He rolled a 20 on his Will save. Also, he said some words."

I also think it's not much of a trap at all if each person in it has a 5% chance of breaking out each round. "That'll hold them! For an average of two whole minutes!"

[Kaulguard]

Wow. Even Élan was able to deduce from the evidence that Xykon was illusory. That's gotta sting.

[HammerCrush]

GENIUS! Just the most awesome strip in the history of OotS. Elan's rationalization of what happened and his character development were masterfully orchestrated by Giant, and as I was reading, I was getting more and more convinced and anxious to the spell to broke.

Also, I'm a LOT sad for Elan now.:smallfrown:

[Sakgeres]

And this is when I laugh at all those who thought the previous comics were just filler.

I was thinking that too till someone mentions that the illusions could forward the story in some way. :smalleek: Then I was like oh yeah.

[SaintRidley]

Last panel, thank you! Excellent unswirling! Great resolution of the illusion!

Now I just wonder how long they were in it for. Similar situation in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Inner Light", in which Picard spent what felt like 30+ years living a life but he was really unconscious for thirty minutes.

[Lvl45DM!]

I wholeheartedly approve of Elan saving the day in this one. Shows he is the Heart of the team, and he's even maturing

[Steward]

I think this will be good for Elan. Notice that he doesn't give up on his dream either; he just admits that it won't resolve itself. He'll have to take the initiative and fix things instead of relying on magic to smooth over all of their problems. The acknowledgement alone brings his happy ending closer.

[tomandtish]

Mmm... Will Save differences between Elan (good will save, probable negative stat modifier) and Roy (poor will save, probable positive stat modifier) still favor Elan slightly... more so if Girard managed to add a bit of Anarchic quality to the illusion (as I'm sure "screw the Paladins" was part of his design throughout - angry and paranoid, he was). But none of this matters unless you have a reason to suspect something isn't right. Illusory walls only disappear if you have a reason to suspect they aren't really there. So mechanically, it's plausible. Y'know, if mechanics were the driving factor plotting the story. :smallamused:


My guess is that he is either still trapped in his "Him and Scruffy in the afterlife drinking single malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled from poorly worded legal documents with Shojo" illusion, Or he's (improbably) standing there with an "it's about damn time you shook it off" look.

Joe is exactly right here. While I'm not sure of exact levels for the cast, at 14th, Elan's will modifier is +9. Roy's is +4. Ignoring any possible magic items or unknown feat bonuses, that means that the Wis modifiers between the two of them still have to make up a difference of 5 (for example, +3 for Roy, -2 for Elan) for the modifiers to be even (and therefore luck of the die).

Remember that the Giant also doesn't worry about optimization. This may be a prime example (to use game terms) of a character who has gradually been increasing his Wis score when he gets the attribute bonus. He's growing up, becoming more mature, and realizing that the world isn't always a nice place with happy endings.

[urbanwolf]

I think Belkar, but not as himself. He was illusion Durkon(Durkusion?) over his guilt of Durkon being murdered in his place.

With Belkars simple brain all the leash pulling done by the party was ineffective, because he could fight it. Where as Heroic sacrifice is incomprehensible.

[raj72616a]

maybe belkar is unconsciously guilty about getting Durkon killed, and wished that he died in Durkon's place?

nah. seems impossible.

[Rig]

Next strip Matrix Analogue, no prizes :D

[Living Oxymoron]

I really want to see Elan having more moments like this.

[Morty]

Isn't that like, rolling a 20 on a round-by-round Will save?


I think it's seriously reductionist, in a way that makes me understand what led Rich to declare he wished he'd never made the comic beholden to the D&D rules, to look at the reasoning Elan presents in the comic, and sum it up as, "He rolled a 20 on his Will save. Also, he said some words."

I also think it's not much of a trap at all if each person in it has a 5% chance of breaking out each round. "That'll hold them! For an average of two whole minutes!"

Kish appears to have made the point I was going to. It's nonsensical to reduce this moment in the story to luck and training rather than character development and an important, harsh realization.

[Scrub]

Alright.
Shared enchantment
Aside:
I'm still opposed to the concept of a phantasm here since it is removing their conscious control of their own bodies since Elan is drooling, Roy is basically talking in his sleep, whereas a phantasm, the way I see it according to the description, is just a mental image in someones head that others can't see, so if you got phantasm'd into thinking you were attacked by a monster then others would see you fighting it but wouldn't see the illusion. Likewise the description for disbelieving (or making the saving throw) states that the phantasm would remain as a translucent outline.


Things that do seem to point towards an illusion of some sort though are the fact that anyone doesn't get a saving throw until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion (though to be fair they probably do interact with it considering that they are not moving at all).

A character with Proof that the illusion isn't real (Elans Character development shows him gaining this proof) doesn't need a throw and if he communicates this to others they get a +4 to their throw.


But since the Giant repeatedly states that the rules don't always apply to OotS, since storytelling is more important, I might as well just skip past argueing about that and aside from affecting someone like Tarquin with his ring of true seeing or an Undead person it seems to be just names anyway.


Now the question is the next step of the enchantment/illusion.
What happens now?

Goal of the enchantment/illusion appears to be greatest desire as a shared effect and that was its breaking point.
But Belkar was caught in the enchantment/illusion and appears to not have achieved it or HAS achieved it.

Did the effect:
(Just assume that I am refering to illusions and enchantments)
a) segregate him into his own illusion since the two seperate realities didn't overlap (Roy, Haley and Elan all anticipated his death to varying degrees)?

b1) Is them breaking out of the enchantment part of another enchantment?
Girard has made reference to the lawful nature of the Paladins before and may believe them foolish enough to fall for such a thing.
If you think you just woke up would you try to wake up again?

b2)Is their reaction to the loss of Belkar part of the enchantment as a sort of trigger?

c) Did Belkar take Non-Lethal or Lethal damage that affected him due to his low CON?


In any case this is keeping me on the edge of my seat since Belkar is a favorite character of mine and I'd be dissapointed to see his apparent character developement fall short(Though all of OotS are pretty awesome either way)

[T.D.O.W.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxKYfTvZFb8

0:20--1:02

Apologies if this has already been referenced, somewhere in the prior 7 pages of comments...

[skim172]

I think the illusion works somewhat haphazardly - whoever thinks of it first gets their way irreversibly. Haley and Roy thought "Belkar dies" and bam, he did. Presumably, he got kicked over into another illusion, one that's more compatible with his own desires.

Haley and Roy want Belkar dead - if not immediately, then in the long run. They're suspicious of what Belkar is really up to and they're pretty sure that if he ever got loose from their control, it'd be the worst outcome. It would not be a happy ending for either if Belkar was still alive and free years from now. Especially Roy, who has intense personal anger at Belkar at the moment, on top of his general loathing.

Elan doesn't want Belkar dead, any more than he wants Nale dead, but he doesn't necessarily have a strong will to see Belkar alive. It's hardly integral to his happy ending. So the way I think of it, the immediate short-term want of both Roy and Haley involved a quick victory over Xykon, and a quick solution to the Belkar problem, so their force of will asserted itself before Belkar's own will (normally lacking in strength and currently near death) could establish a defiance.


I'm curious how they'll react now - after likely years of imagined time not thinking about Belkar, to wake up and goddammit, he's right there, along with the stupid cat. Massively disappointing. :smallfrown:

[Fitzclowningham]

If it is in fact the case that, having been 'killed' by Xykon's Meteor Swarm, Belkar's illusion/fantasy involves his going to the afterlife, could we pleeeeeeeease have a strip featuring him in the Abyss?

edit: Also, I'm wondering if there was a John Lennon/Yoko Ono reference that I missed in the comic (Double Fantasy being one of their albums).

[Vinsfeld]

Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?


Obviously, not you, Giant. :smallamused:

[The Glyphstone]

Elan's participating!

[brionl]

Well, that beats the "It was all the dream of an autistic child staring at a snow globe" ending it threatened to be in 888!

*whew*

So .... how far back did we get illusioned up? And how many people?

Is Linear right behind them, also illusioned up? Is Durkon not really vamped?

No, I don't believe that, that would be too snowglobey :)

still, just because that's when we saw the hallway doesn't mean that's when they encountered the hallway ...

or double double DOUBLE fantasy!

OMG! I JUST DON'T KNOW!!! :smalleek:

It started in strip 885, some time between when they pointed out the runes and Xykon and Redcloak came through the door.

Also, Elan figured it out! Dun, Dunn, DUNNN!!!

[Xenrei]

Hahaha! Great character development on Elan's part! I feel bad for him though, he just realized that most of his dreams won't come true. :smallfrown:

I really liked the interesting un-illusion swirly transition though. And the Empress of Blood was hilarious! :smallbiggrin:

[Liliet]

Well, compared to the guy who called that it would be Elan who`d snap them out of it by seeing his family behave like good boys I totally fade, but I still called it that they would shatter the illusion by themselves due to it becoming unbelievable because of Elan`s wild imagination. I really did. Well, I mostly joined the others who called it before me, but I still was right. Er. Khm. Totally was.

And you {SCRUBBED} who kept whining about fillers, take that. Imagine this comic without the previous strip. Say it wasn`t important. Say it for me.


On the other note. I really did not expect Elan to disbelieve his own heart`s desire. I mean, he saw what he craved most, and he, unlike others around him, thought it wasn`t possible. Don`t you mention stuff like Will saves and Wisdom score... although it may translate into "I did not expect Elan to have sufficient Wisdom to disbelieve an Epic illusion".
But mostly, I did not expect him to have pessimism for it. :smallfrown:

[littlebum2002]

I have noticed that in almost every "prediction" thread, someone pretty much nails their prediction head-on. I mean someone basically predicted this one word-for-word, and another argument used the last panel practically word-for-word when the illusion began in the first place.

So, :elan:, which of these is more likely?

1) That there are so many predictions on here that, statistically speaking, it is almost certain that SOMEBODY will guess it right?

or

2) When The Giant gets stuck in how to solve a minor plot detail, he waits a few hours after the comic is posted, reads all the predictions, and uses them to get ideas?

That's what I would do, but that's why no one would probably read my comic, which would make the process impossible in the first place...

[ChristianSt]

Yeah, three great strips for the price of one! :smallbiggrin:

Only "bad" thing: No more fantastic illusion/dreams :smallfrown: [Or maybe we will see some of Belkar? I'm kinda anxious of what's happing to him right now.]

[brionl]

Oh, and about the last panel. They already didn't see any illusions when they were in the canyon of windy little passages and couldn't find the correct one, and later when they didn't see the pyramid

[SavageWombat]

I agree with the "no saving throw allowed" opinion. Makes the spell more epic, and explains how it was supposed to work against someone like Soon.

Who knows, maybe we'll get to see Xykon in the effect, and find out that it works vs. undead too.

[Zephyr1011]

I've loved this arc. Glad we're getting back to the story now. I wonder what's been happening to Belkar, what effect did dying in the illusion have on him? Did he go to an illusory afterlife? Did he go to a separate illusion? He can't have woken up as he seems to be in the same position as before. Unless illusory time is so warped that almost no real time has passed between him dying and them waking up.

I'm surprised that Girard's illusion could be broken simply by strength of will though, it's a satisfying storyline and all, but doesn't seem particularly in character for such a paranoid individual. Oh well, I'm sure there are other lines of defence.

[elliott20]

Anybody else read the Superman comic "For the Man Who Has Everything" circa 1985? Superman at one point had to talk himself out of his own perfect dream where he was just an ordinary man having an ordinary family life. It was heart wrenching to read.

Same with this. Watching Elan's realization and growth is bittersweet for me.

[ZarDaranth]

Oh, and about the last panel. They already didn't see any illusions when they were in the canyon of windy little passages and couldn't find the correct one, and later when they didn't see the pyramid

I think he meant more to the level of "an endless series of cunning illusions" that would be more akin to an epic illusionist (assuming Girard was epic; not a hard stretch). I think a span of many "illusion years" into this illusion counts as being epic enough for that foreshadowing. The defeat of the goblins in Azure City, the revolution in the Thieves' guild, The Order of the Stick becoming a worldwide sensation; this wasn't just a quick illusion hiding an opening or a building.

This was grade A, trying to figure out Donnie Darko while drunk, mind warp. Heck, even Roy looks like he's dazed after reality smacks him in the face.

[Sir_Leorik]

'Sniff, our little Elan is growing up. He's finally realized that he needs to move beyond his simple hopes that Nale will act like a better brother towards him, or Tarquin will remarry his Mom. Maybe he's even ready to actually take on Tarquin and Nale in combat. Hmm, does this mean that when Elan faces Nale for the final throwdown, Nale will not walk away alive like he did in the obsolete monster room or the Azure City inn? (Not to mention all the times Nale has fled.)

Still the sadness on Elan's face and the pain in his voice, when he admits how dysfunctional his family is (and always will be), is heartbreaking. That this can be shown in a stick figure comic is a sign of how awesome Rich Burlew is at the medium of stick figure comics using the trappings of D&D 3.5 to tell comedic fantasy adventure stories with dramatic moments! (I kid, this was a really moving moment about a character who has come a long way from singing about his new skill points.)

To all the people who were badmouthing the pages set in the Lotus Eater fantasy, seriously people? It was seven pages altogether, released in four updates. The purpose of the whole sequence was to get to page #889 and to show us that Book five is about Elan's Hero's Journey. Elan is at the point where he is going to realize that like it or not he needs to steel himself for the fight with his father and brother. He's growing as a character, and that growth, not his knowledge of genre tropes, is what allowed him to realize the illusionary nature of the Lotus Eater Trap and break the group free. The lamp-shade hanging on the foreshadowing, on the other hand... that was all Elan being Elan. No matter how much he matures, Elan will still remain a fun-loving, genre-quoting, bard at heart.

(And it was foreshadowing! Not a bunch of clues! Foreshadowing! See, even Elan agrees with me. :smallwink:)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well...that was over quickly...

[pendell]

Sometimes you score high on your will save. And sometimes, knowing the rules of drama and how things work and how drama works gives a massive circumstance bonus.

It is totally in character for Elan to catch the illusion.

Thinking about it ... you're right. Elan is not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but he IS very childlike, and sometimes it takes a childlike mentality to spot that the emperor has no clothes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes). It's precisely because he is childlike and has childlike dreams that he has able to recognize the illusion for what it was.

And this is perfect payoff to strips 886-888. Realistically, I don't know, now, how it could have been shortened and still allowed the payoff to have the punch that it did.

*Sits down to a dish of humble pie*.

It goes better with mustard.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Apricot]

Ah, so it was the standard realization-about-delusions illusion-breaking. Now I'm very much looking forward to the next strip, because there's some excellent potential for more getting in touch with reality.

So when IS the party going to realize that Belkar just wanted to die?

[137beth]

I have noticed that in almost every "prediction" thread, someone pretty much nails their prediction head-on. I mean someone basically predicted this one word-for-word, and another argument used the last panel practically word-for-word when the illusion began in the first place.

So, :elan:, which of these is more likely?

1) That there are so many predictions on here that, statistically speaking, it is almost certain that SOMEBODY will guess it right?

or

2) When The Giant gets stuck in how to solve a minor plot detail, he waits a few hours after the comic is posted, reads all the predictions, and uses them to get ideas?

That's what I would do, but that's why no one would probably read my comic, which would make the process impossible in the first place...
Number one. There have been a ton of absurd theories with no connection to the story whatsoever. I don't know where you're getting this whole "almost every prediction thread" nonsense. Almost every prediction thread is completely and utterly wrong.

[Sylthia]

I knew Elan's genre savvy would get them out of this somehow.

[ericgrau]

Nice idea using Elan to get out of this instead of the more obvious Roy or V or Haley. Much better story this way.

Now I think the next question is: where's Belkar?

[Morty]

Thinking about it ... you're right. Elan is not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but he IS very childlike, and sometimes it takes a childlike mentality to spot that the emperor has no clothes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes). It's precisely because he is childlike and has childlike dreams that he has able to recognize the illusion for what it was.


I think it's not quite that. Elan didn't spot the illusion because he's child-like; he spotted it because he's finally growing out of his child-like dreams. The illusion dredged up his naive wish for his parents getting back together, but he's matured enough to know why it's trollcrap.

[Sir_Leorik]

I have noticed that in almost every "prediction" thread, someone pretty much nails their prediction head-on. I mean someone basically predicted this one word-for-word, and another argument used the last panel practically word-for-word when the illusion began in the first place.


No. They used slightly different words, and they used them before the illusion began. They were arguing Xykon and Redcloak were illusions before we could fully see Redcloak and before Xykon did more than make an exasperated comment. And as for the argument that Girard's prowess and mastery of illusions was foreshadowed, Xykon leaving Gobbotopia with the two most powerful members of Team Evil, and making a pit stop in the Astral Plane before heading for the Western Continent, was shown outright. So Xykon's arrival was, IMO, more likely to be the real deal, bypassing a bunch of traps via a color pool on the Astral Plane, than one of Girard's illusions created by an ill-defined rune. I stand by my interpretation of page #885 prior to reading #886.

Plus Elan raises a good point: the foreshadowing didn't actually occur on page #885, it occurred when Shojo told the OotS about Girard. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

[NerdyKris]

I have noticed that in almost every "prediction" thread, someone pretty much nails their prediction head-on. I mean someone basically predicted this one word-for-word, and another argument used the last panel practically word-for-word when the illusion began in the first place.

So, :elan:, which of these is more likely?

1) That there are so many predictions on here that, statistically speaking, it is almost certain that SOMEBODY will guess it right?

or

2) When The Giant gets stuck in how to solve a minor plot detail, he waits a few hours after the comic is posted, reads all the predictions, and uses them to get ideas?

That's what I would do, but that's why no one would probably read my comic, which would make the process impossible in the first place...

It's due to the massive amount of posters all looking at it from a different angle with varying levels of experience in reading stories. Not to mention only a finite amount of real possibilities that may happen at this late point in the story.

For starters, in this illusion, it could only have been one of the four, V, or possibly the linear guild coming back in. It's not unreasonable to assume you'd get a valid argument for all 6 of those, along with the occasional off the wall suggestion that would never happen.

It's why crowdsourcing works so well. Because what five people might miss, five other people might see instantly. In terms of plot twists, I've seen people guess the twist for Jade Empire back in the day, which surprised me, and I'm usually told that I'm too good at guessing plot points. It all depends on what you've had experience in reading/watching.

[The Troubadour]

...Oh. So THAT was the point of the last strip.
And Elan continues to be awesome!

[Sir_Leorik]

On the other note. I really did not expect Elan to disbelieve his own heart`s desire. I mean, he saw what he craved most, and he, unlike others around him, thought it wasn`t possible.

It wasn't just how improbable his heart's desire was, but he realized how bad it would be if it came true. He'd be subjecting Mom to the fate of all of Tarquin's other wives, plus Tarquin, Malack and the rest of their cronies would still be in the process of taking over the Western Continent and crushing the people who live their under their boots (and snake-like tail). Elan really grew as a character in this story arc, much more so than he did under Julio Scoundrel's tutelage. Julio taught him some fancy moves, but Elan had force himself to look at what he wanted come true and say "This isn't right, we need to wake up and finish the job we swore to do." That's a far cry from the Elan who ran around a dungeon naked because he believed it made him invisible, or who dressed up like Aquaman for an undersea adventure, or who went to an amusement park with his dad the tyrant.

[Sir_Leorik]

...Oh. So THAT was the point of the last strip the last four strips.

Slight correction.

[Liliet]

No, Elan does NOT really want Belkar dead.
Roy? He just believes it was gonna happen anyway, and the halfling was low on hit points when the illusory battle started, so for Roy it was more a case of "realistic expectation" than a desire.
Who wanted Belkar dead, then? Belkar. It's not like it hasn't been foreshadowed a lot in the latest strips.

Elan really wanted all his friends to live (he is crying at Belkar's funeral).
Why did Belkar still die in the illusion? Because sometimes one has a stronger opinion about something than the other, and the illusion makes that one stronger desire prevail.
That's why, Elan explains, the Order didn't fight Tarquin's empire: Roy would have wanted to, but Elan wanted to NOT fight his father even more.


What if at that moment, Belkars's Deepest Desire was to die? Think about it.


maybe belkar is unconsciously guilty about getting Durkon killed, and wished that he died in Durkon's place?

nah. seems impossible.

To me, and seeing the posts quoted above, not only to me, it seem quite possible. Belkar is feeling really crappy right now, what with both Constitution damage and "I`m only good at hurting people" line - it isn`t incomprehensible for him to wish to be killed along with Mr. Scruffy, be buried together and get a kickass monument.


I think the illusion works somewhat haphazardly - whoever thinks of it first gets their way irreversibly. Haley and Roy thought "Belkar dies" and bam, he did. Presumably, he got kicked over into another illusion, one that's more compatible with his own desires.

Haley and Roy want Belkar dead - if not immediately, then in the long run. They're suspicious of what Belkar is really up to and they're pretty sure that if he ever got loose from their control, it'd be the worst outcome. It would not be a happy ending for either if Belkar was still alive and free years from now. Especially Roy, who has intense personal anger at Belkar at the moment, on top of his general loathing.

Elan doesn't want Belkar dead, any more than he wants Nale dead, but he doesn't necessarily have a strong will to see Belkar alive. It's hardly integral to his happy ending. So the way I think of it, the immediate short-term want of both Roy and Haley involved a quick victory over Xykon, and a quick solution to the Belkar problem, so their force of will asserted itself before Belkar's own will (normally lacking in strength and currently near death) could establish a defiance.


I'm curious how they'll react now - after likely years of imagined time not thinking about Belkar, to wake up and goddammit, he's right there, along with the stupid cat. Massively disappointing. :smallfrown:

See above about what I believe to be true about why Belkar is dead.
I think seeing Belkar alive won`t be NEARLY as disappointing as realising Durkon is, in fact, dead.
And come on, this is a GOOD party. I guess even Roy wouldn`t be THAT glad to see Belkar die, seriously.

And I really want to know about what`s with Belkar now. Random guesses:
1) he`s been watching them as a ghost, and might have disbelieved the illusion long ago, but the spell required for everyone to disbelieve at once (that`s what I WANT to happen);
2) he was kicked out of the illusion when he was killed in it but was unable to wake the others and has been standing guard since then (isn`t really plausible, given it`s an Epic illusion and they were still standing like they were before - I`m sure the first thing Belkar would have done would be to kick them over);
3) Belkar`s illusion has branched off and he`s now enjoying his afterlife (seems to be a very popular theory, but I don`t think it would be THAT interesting);
4) Belkar`s stuck in the illusion because of being dead and they have a choice of either accepting the quest to wake him up or abandoning/killing him right then and there.



I have noticed that in almost every "prediction" thread, someone pretty much nails their prediction head-on. I mean someone basically predicted this one word-for-word, and another argument used the last panel practically word-for-word when the illusion began in the first place.

So, :elan:, which of these is more likely?

1) That there are so many predictions on here that, statistically speaking, it is almost certain that SOMEBODY will guess it right?

or

2) When The Giant gets stuck in how to solve a minor plot detail, he waits a few hours after the comic is posted, reads all the predictions, and uses them to get ideas?

That's what I would do, but that's why no one would probably read my comic, which would make the process impossible in the first place...

See FAQ:
"Q: Wouldn.t it be cool if X, Y, and Z happened? You should totally do that.

A: Thanks, but I prefer to create my own plots. In fact, I try not to read anything where people suggest upcoming plot ideas because I hate it when people guess what is going to happen. I feel the uncontrollable urge to change what happens, just to prove them wrong. Petty? Probably.

Q: Hey, you used my idea I posted! Cool!

A: No, I didn.t. Even if your idea that you posted completely matches what eventually happened, you can be sure I was not inspired by your post. Largely because I probably didn.t read it (see above question). Top"

At the beginning of this forum there was a rule about putting the predictions under "spoiler" tag because Giant hated his ideas being predicted and each time seeing such predictions had an urge to change things just because. That`s also why the prediction threads were branched off the main threads.

[Sir_Leorik]

I almost completely forgot! While I was praising Elan's character development and the raw emotions in the story, I forgot to mention that this strip 100% confirms the "everyone is stuck in the same fantasy environment" theory! Elan is 100% aware of Haley and Roy's dreams! It was a shared dream/phantasm/whatever technical term, and all four of them were part of it. That means Belkar did experience his "death", though he wasn't killed by it, and next time we'll discover what that meant for him.

[Porthos]

:elan:: Applaud applaud applaud the excellent use of the 'It's Perfect...Too perfect' defense against the dreaded Lotus Eaters!

Like everyone else, major dawwwww for Elan at his inner-realization. But it is perfectly in-character for this to happen.

One thing I did like that has been slightly overlooked in all of this was Roy's eternal pessimism surfacing again. "Ah, hell. We are aren't we." was just such a perfect Roy-like line that it deserves its props as well.

But, shallow person that I am, I must admit to laughing out loud at the final panel. My reasonings exactly, Elan.

....

Waitamo. I'm thinking like Elan!!!! :smalleek: :smalleek:

...

Maybe I should be a bit worried here. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Liliet]

It wasn't just how improbable his heart's desire was, but he realized how bad it would be if it came true. He'd be subjecting Mom to the fate of all of Tarquin's other wives, plus Tarquin, Malack and the rest of their cronies would still be in the process of taking over the Western Continent and crushing the people who live their under their boots (and snake-like tail). Elan really grew as a character in this story arc, much more so than he did under Julio Scoundrel's tutelage. Julio taught him some fancy moves, but Elan had force himself to look at what he wanted come true and say "This isn't right, we need to wake up and finish the job we swore to do." That's a far cry from the Elan who ran around a dungeon naked because he believed it made him invisible, or who dressed up like Aquaman for an undersea adventure, or who went to an amusement park with his dad the tyrant.

That, too. People (sorry, I still haven`t got the habit of looking at the nicknames and there are too many identical avatars around here) have mentioned that Elan is in fact the most selfless character, and this is the reason why disbelieving "Heart`s desire" was the easiest for him. Roy would never have thought that his dreams could do harm to others (even if they did) and he has a lot of them, very defininte goals to achieve for himself and to be proud of. Haley hasn`t yet got a habit of looking out for other people, she refers to herself as "Goodish" and has a lot to wish for for herself as well. While Elan is mostly there for the moment`s fun and really is emphatic, having the highest Charisma and all.

[littlebum2002]

Number one. There have been a ton of absurd theories with no connection to the story whatsoever. I don't know where you're getting this whole "almost every prediction thread" nonsense. Almost every prediction thread is completely and utterly wrong.

I guess I'm Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Once the comic comes out, it's easy to pick through all the prediction threads and notice the ones that were correct, and ignore those that weren't.

Also, it's awesome that The Giant has already gone out of his way to explain to people that he didn't use their ideas. I mean, I figured he didn't really do that, but I could see if someone correctly predicted some crazy plot twist they might be convinced that they somehow influenced him.




On a completely unrelated note, I just read "shadows in flight" and thought it was amazing that the main character was referred to as "the Giant" the entire book. Does Julian Delphiki write this comic using the ansible? It would explain why we get one a week: He is really drawing the comics daily, but time flows slower here so they only come out staggered.

[Scowling Dragon]

Maybe Belkar got his own dream thing? The spell may have labeled Belkar incompatible with the rest of the trios dreams.

[Amphiox]

I think Roy's reaction is a pretty realistic depiction of a character with a high INT but a lowish will save due to his class.

He starts trying to raise objections to Elan's reasoning, rationalizing it away, which is something that intelligent people tend to do more of, but the moment Elan finishes his argument, he gets it right away. Once presented with the proper input, he arrives at the correct conclusion quickly.

It also shows the limitations of intelligence, which is basically GIGO. Without the proper input, all his intellect does is continuously churn out elaborate but false conclusions.

His inability to generate that proper input on his own, internally, reflects his poor will save, due to the pre-existing sorts of expectations, habits, and training he has experienced to date (ie, his experience in his class, which is one with a poor will save).

[Oakianus]

It's weird, I read the whole thread and there hasn't been a single post talking about how this was stupid filler that didn't matter and how we'd have been better off not bothering to watch Elan grow up.

Did something happen? :(

[King of Nowhere]

I totally like the way elan's stupidity (with his own self-conscience of it) was the key to disbelieving the illusion.
It can be probably classified as a subset of the "too dumb to fool" concept. The spell was trying to fool him by giving him his wishes, but those wishes were so unreasonable and irrational that they couldn't fool anyone

[Vectner]

That was simply perfect

[Sir_Leorik]

About Elan: rules wise Charisma means a lot of "self awarness" and empaty.


A very good point! Many players don't really understand what Charisma is; they either associate it with physical beauty or skilled oratory. While physical attractiveness is a part of Charisma, it also relates to one's empathy, sense of self, and the strength of one's personality.

In 4E Charisma has become one of the two ability scores that the Will Defense (4E's replacement for Will saves) is based on, along with Wisdom. 4E Bards are just as likely to ward off hostile mental attacks as Clerics (and in some cases they're even more likely, cough, Strength Clerics, cough).

[Lizard Lord]

Here is my theory on Belkar's dream:
He dies and goes to Heaven. Upon doing so he instantly knows it is a dream, since he knows he would and should wind up in Hell, but chooses to remain in the dream. The rest of the order is going to force him out of it and he will be angry at them for it.

[screwtape]

I'd be cool if they were standing there under the illusion for three days and the LG just tip-toed past them.

[Porthos]

A very good point! Many players don't really understand what Charisma is; they either associate it with physical beauty or skilled oratory. While physical attractiveness is a part of Charisma, it also relates to one's empathy, sense of self, and the strength of one's personality.

As I like to put it:

INT: Book Smarts
WIS: Street Smarts
CHR: People Smarts

The 'People Smarts' can mean 'understanding how people tick, even on a subconscious level'. Being able to sway them to your cause. Or as you mentioned above sense of self (which led to the 'Waitamo.. People would NOT be reacting in this situation like this. It must be me, instead.')

[shylocxs]

That wasn't the best of all time... but was definitely one of the best. Nicely written, nicely drawn. Congrats, Giant!

[Gift Jeraff]

In regards to Illusion versus Enchantment, besides the fact that they're in an Epic Illusionist's dungeon, I'd go with Illusion because, off the top of my head Enchantment spells force their subjects to behave a certain way. Charm Person forces you to view the caster as friendly. Mind Fog forces you to lose concentration. Suggestion forces you to regard the caster's words highly. Confusion forces you to be confused. And so on.

On the other hand, illusions create/hide images/sensations that "direct" people in a certain way. Invisibility doesn't repel people from your pyramid, it makes them think there isn't a pyramid there to begin with. These runes didn't force the Order to be happy, it created scenarios that would make them happy.

And now that I think about it, Elan and Nale's specialties really do embody them. They both specialize in non-damaging spells, but one uses the spells that force him to be in control and the other uses spells that misdirect his opponents to minimalize conflict.

[Sir_Leorik]

That, too. People (sorry, I still haven`t got the habit of looking at the nicknames and there are too many identical avatars around here) have mentioned that Elan is in fact the most selfless character, and this is the reason why disbelieving "Heart`s desire" was the easiest for him. Roy would never have thought that his dreams could do harm to others (even if they did) and he has a lot of them, very defininte goals to achieve for himself and to be proud of. Haley hasn`t yet got a habit of looking out for other people, she refers to herself as "Goodish" and has a lot to wish for for herself as well. While Elan is mostly there for the moment`s fun and really is emphatic, having the highest Charisma and all.

Roy's dreams were mostly selfless; the most self-aggrandizing parts involved wanting Eugene's love and respect, wanting single-class Fighters from 3.5 D&D like himself to earn a little respect and showing up Julia. The last part is the only part that I take issue with and feel isn't really Lawful Good, but it is perfectly in keeping with Roy's personality, especially with what his Deva case-worker revealed.

For someone as avaricious as Haley, her dreams were pretty altruistic. Sure she got to kill Tsukiko and Jirix and humiliate Bozzak, plus she got wealthy helping others, but she liberated Azure City and Greysky City from those who would prey upon them. Robin Hood, Zorro, the Scarlet Pimpernel and every masked crime fighter since Batman would acknowledge those as good deeds (though Batman might question the body count of Hobgoblins in Azure City).

Elan's wishes were for selfish things, but the fact that he can realize that without Roy, Haley, Durkon or V telling him that is a sign of hitherto unseen maturity.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'd be cool if they were standing there under the illusion for three days and the LG just tip-toed past them.

They can't, otherwise they'd have died of thirst and/or starvation. And Roy's hair and beard would have grown.

[Haluesen]

WOw...just absolutely wow. I wasn't expecting the Illusion World set of comics to end quite yet. Was the Giant planning it like this? I really hope so. Because this strip is awesome. Huge character development for Elan, very engaging discussion, really cool looking panel...this strip is now going in my top 5. :smallbiggrin:

@Gift Jeraff You have just successfully blown my mind. :smallcool: