Mixing Metals

[Vixsor Lumin]

I was just reading through a thread and misread a sentance that made it seem like a weapon was made of two materials, and it got me thinking. I've been working on a homebrew campaign setting for awhile, and I think I might want to create new alloys of fantasy metals or allow weapons made from multiple materials. The best example I can think of would be a sword with an adamantine edge and a mithral core gaining the ability to bypass hardness while also weighing less than steel. The cost would be for both materials plus a fee for the difficulty of its construction. Would this cause an imbalance? The technology would origionally apply to spacecraft, but using it for personal arms wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

[Spuddles]

I'd go with a gold falchion with a mercury core and a resin edge. Two increases in weapon size and an 18-20x4 crit, all for one weapon prof feat.



Nah, just kidding. In the grand scheme of things, sword optimization shouldn't hurt your game very much.

[Regitnui]

I can't think any reason why this wouldn't work. The Great Internet Sage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_making) tells us that swords can be created from two or more metals. Come to think of it, perhaps that is how adamantine swords are made; an adamantine-edged iron/steel billet.

[Nymrod]

I don't think you can weld any two metals though. It's an issue of molecular structure.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Hmmm maybe I could introduce the molecular structure problem to prevent things like what spuddles posted :smalltongue: but that will mostly be for balance reasons so ill just add that in where balance dictates rather than science. Any other potential abuses? Its not just for swords, anything made of metal could do this. Shields, armor, arrowheads, silverwear, vehicles, anything really. Not even just metal. There are plenty of natural special materials.

[Nymrod]

The creation of complex alloys and metalworking could be granted as treasure. Save the dwarf or orog blacksmith and get something out of it!

[Spiryt]

Hmmm maybe I could introduce the molecular structure problem to prevent things like what spuddles posted :smalltongue: but that will mostly be for balance reasons so ill just add that in where balance dictates rather than science.

Hmm, most 'better' metals in D&D doesn't make shade of sense from the science point of view, anyway, so I think it kinda makes problem mainly from 'balance' point of view.

I mean, you can make a lot of things with metals, and if one tries to apply 'science' selectively, one will indeed up with something of DR passing of adamantine, weight of mithrill, damage dice of x, hardness of y. :smallbiggrin:

I would imagine that 'adamantine' or 'mithrill' properties were more of intended to be stat blocks, not necessarily indication that someone's 100 pure adamantine.

If players and DM have no problems with it, there's no problem though, obviously.

[Regitnui]

I would imagine that 'adamantine' or 'mithrill' properties were more of intended to be stat blocks, not necessarily indication that someone's 100 pure adamantine.

That thought occured to me as well. Perhaps mithril is too soft to make reliable armour in its natural state, so it must be alloyed with something (iron, perhaps? Would certainly explain the 'silvered steel' moniker) to be effective? Or natural adamantine ore too brittle (Hard=/=unbreakable), perhaps having to be alloyed with mithril to gain workable properties.

Catgirl-killing, anyone?

[CaladanMoonblad]

To OP: There are different compositions of carbon (and nickel) and iron to create different types of steel. Too much carbon, and the steel is too brittle (hard). Too little carbon and the steel is too soft.

As for your suggestion of a different core and edge, take the Japanese art of sword smithing for instance. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc) Despite what the video states, the original iron mine for traditional japanese swordcrafting is actually low grade by modern steel production standards. Iron is iron after all, and the refining process is what makes steel matter. The sword is always straight, but when the blade is cooled, the sword "curves" on its own because of the two types of steel in the blade. The blending can be seen around the 6 minute mark, for a softer iron core, and a harder steel edge.

For a long time, Aluminum was thrown out during mining as useless. We didn't really know how to use Aluminum to craft until the industrial age. So some materials will not be useful until technology levels allow for its use (such as Aluminum for aircraft). However, I would not suggest making an aluminum sword : /

The game itself never defines Mithral as a base metal or an alloy (most likely). Generally speaking, alloys do not blend (it becomes a new alloy based on the original metals, not the properties of the previous alloys). Traditional alloys used prior to the industrial age included bronze, pewter, brass, phospor, and amalgams (mercury + some metal). Even the history section on Alloys from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy#History) may be helpful in your endeavor.

[graymachine]

Roy dealt with this issue here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html). Simply because a sword is labelled as Adamantium doesn't necessitate that it is 100% that material. Actually, given the description of Adamantium's properties, I would expect anything made out of it to be an alloy.

[Ashtagon]

The d20 SRD notes that no weapon can benefit from more than one special material. The PRD makes the same note. The closest you can get is that a double weapon can have each head made of a different special material.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/materials.html

That said, if you want to houserule benefiting from two special materials at once, your house, your rules.

[Vixsor Lumin]

I have been trying to figure out what that expression means for months! Can you explain where it came from? Please?

[QUOTE=CaladanMoonblad;15269837]To OP: There are different compositions of carbon (and nickel) and iron to create different types of steel. Too much carbon, and the steel is too brittle (hard). Too little carbon and the steel is too soft.

As for your suggestion of a different core and edge, take the Japanese art of sword smithing for instance. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc) Despite what the video states, the original iron mine for traditional japanese swordcrafting is actually low grade by modern steel production standards. Iron is iron after all, and the refining process is what makes steel matter. The sword is always straight, but when the blade is cooled, the sword "curves" on its own because of the two types of steel in the blade. The blending can be seen around the 6 minute mark, for a softer iron core, and a harder steel edge.

For a long time, Aluminum was thrown out during mining as useless. We didn't really know how to use Aluminum to craft until the industrial age. So some materials will not be useful until technology levels allow for its use (such as Aluminum for aircraft). However, I would not suggest making an aluminum sword : /

The game itself never defines Mithral as a base metal or an alloy (most likely). Generally speaking, alloys do not blend (it becomes a new alloy based on the original metals, not the properties of the previous alloys). Traditional alloys used prior to the industrial age included bronze, pewter, brass, phospor, and amalgams (mercury + some metal). Even the history section on Alloys from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy#History) may be helpful in your endeavor.

Thanks! This is all really helpful! Do you know anything about post industrial metal working? Interplanetary craft and interplaner craft play a large role so they will have advanced beyond the relatively simple weapons of pre industrial eras.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Thanks! This is all really helpful! Do you know anything about post industrial metal working? Interplanetary craft and interplaner craft play a large role so they will have advanced beyond the relatively simple weapons of pre industrial eras.

Steel production hit its heyday in the 1930s-1950s in the United States, but due to a number of political forces, steel production moved mostly to China and South Korea for the cheapest steel on the planet. : / I believe this forum does not allow for this type of conversation... but the next generation of building materials is likely going to be biological in origin.

Take for instance, the dream of using spidersilk milked from goats (google "spider silk goat" and there's a BBC video- unfortunately, it is protected from being linked).

The science of alloys is heading more towards specific materials, such as Graphene (superconductors!). Most of the actual alloys have already been invented, but who knows? The last space shuttle, Endeavor, was made of high grade steel but the bottom section (the black underside) was lined with heat resistant ceramic tiles for re-entry into our atmosphere.

You may want to look into d20 Future, or even the Star Wars d20 universe however. They both have fictional materials (like duranium, some futuristic alloy). Even Star Trek uses "transparent aluminum" in Star Trek IV, the Voyage Home, as a plot device.

[Regitnui]

I have been trying to figure out what that expression means for months! Can you explain where it came from? Please?

There's a meme: "Every time you bring real science into a fantasy setting, God kills a catgirl." So working out how fantasy could work realistically is catgirl-killing.

[hamishspence]

Even Star Trek uses "transparent aluminum" in Star Trek IV, the Voyage Home, as a plot device.

Actually, transparent, aluminum-based ceramics, were in development back in the 80s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride

and that might have been where the Star Trek writers got the idea.

[Vixsor Lumin]

There's a meme: "Every time you bring real science into a fantasy setting, God kills a catgirl." So working out how fantasy could work realistically is catgirl-killing.
THANK YOU!

Steel production hit its heyday in the 1930s-1950s in the United States, but due to a number of political forces, steel production moved mostly to China and South Korea for the cheapest steel on the planet. : / I believe this forum does not allow for this type of conversation... but the next generation of building materials is likely going to be biological in origin.

Take for instance, the dream of using spidersilk milked from goats (google "spider silk goat" and there's a BBC video- unfortunately, it is protected from being linked).

The science of alloys is heading more towards specific materials, such as Graphene (superconductors!). Most of the actual alloys have already been invented, but who knows? The last space shuttle, Endeavor, was made of high grade steel but the bottom section (the black underside) was lined with heat resistant ceramic tiles for re-entry into our atmosphere.

You may want to look into d20 Future, or even the Star Wars d20 universe however. They both have fictional materials (like duranium, some futuristic alloy). Even Star Trek uses "transparent aluminum" in Star Trek IV, the Voyage Home, as a plot device.

I've heard of the "goat silk", but never considered a biological origin for the new materials in my setting.... definitely going to use that for th e creepy insect based race. Possibly have pre game lore that allows for reverse engineered bio components. Living ships could be a very cool thing :smallbiggrin: thanks!

[Spuddles]

Kaorti resin is an organic:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

There are also a few woods that weapons can be made out of- bronzewood & duskwood, from eberron and faerun, respectively.

The advantage of a wood weapon is being able to cast Spikes on it- third level spell that makes your weapon +2 and adds up to 10 damage.

Sword & Fist has mercurial weapons where your weapon has a mercury reservoir in the blade so it has more momentum when you swing. Mechanically this increases the damage dice of your weapon.

[Gildedragon]

There are metals that can be mixed with others: pure ore and oerthblood

There's also a lot of metals in MoF