Vow of Poverty

[Ruethgar]

Would VoP be worth it for an incarnum user considering that their soulmelds can replace magic item slots anyway?

[Amnestic]

VoP is never "worth it" from a mechanical perspective assuming standard WBL and decent access to either crafting or magic marts.

It might hurt Incarnum less than certain other classes (Monk), but with the Magic Item Compendium rules for combining magic item effects into a single slot (eg. Cloak of Resistance +1 and Charisma +2), Incarnum occupying magic item slots isn't really a huge deal at all, if it ever was to begin with.

[Talya]

In theory, yes.

In practice, you'd still miss all the magic items that don't require a "slot" to equip them in that make characters more versatile.

Like Druids, Incarnum users suffer less from VOP.

[Emperor Tippy]

VoP is never "worth it" from a mechanical perspective assuming standard WBL and decent access to either crafting or magic marts.
That's not true. VoP is highly worth it mechanically if you are willing to pervert the purpose of it beyond all recognition. How would you like to spend 10,000 XP for an extra 11 feats at level twenty?

And if you are starting in high level then you just take VoP in your back story and then Embrace/Shun immediately after the story start (or in your backstory) to switch all of those nifty feats to things that are actually useful.

But yes, straight VoP without perversion is virtually totally worthless.

[Nymrod]

Ofc a lot of GMs would scream in horror at what most people consider a logically available magic mart or use of crafting feats . . .

[Rubik]

Ofc a lot of GMs would scream in horror at what most people consider a logically available magic mart or use of crafting feats . . .It IS RAW, and many casters can find numerous ways to get the items they want; anything else is houserules no matter what those DMs may say.

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, if the party is high tier, but the lower tiered characters NEED magic marts or they fail even worse than usual.

[Gnaeus]

That's not true. VoP is highly worth it mechanically if you are willing to pervert the purpose of it beyond all recognition. How would you like to spend 10,000 XP for an extra 11 feats at level twenty?

And if you are starting in high level then you just take VoP in your back story and then Embrace/Shun immediately after the story start (or in your backstory) to switch all of those nifty feats to things that are actually useful.

But yes, straight VoP without perversion is virtually totally worthless.

Assuming that WBL is reasonably followed, and that the party has the ability to sell/buy/craft items, Tippy is correct.


It IS RAW, and many casters can find numerous ways to get the items they want; anything else is houserules no matter what those DMs may say.


RAW does not prevent me from setting up a campaign world where there are no towns with more than 100 people in them. Or putting PCs in an enclosed Demiplane with no locations to shop. Or making the entire quest happen in such a limited timeframe that there is no time to depart to go to a town and buy items. Or making powerful NPC enemies so that if the PCs enter a city they are immediately targeted and killed.............

Not that any of those is a good idea, but none of those is a houserule.

[Threadnaught]

That's not true. VoP is highly worth it mechanically if you are willing to pervert the purpose of it beyond all recognition. How would you like to spend 10,000 XP for an extra 11 feats at level twenty?

And if you are starting in high level then you just take VoP in your back story and then Embrace/Shun immediately after the story start (or in your backstory) to switch all of those nifty feats to things that are actually useful.

But yes, straight VoP without perversion is virtually totally worthless.

Don't you lose everything gained from VoP, if you lose VoP?

What about a Dragonwrought Kobold Druid who wants to be self sufficient and allow the DMPC Artificer to do his own thing, without draining the Arty's resource?
This is assuming my DM (that ******* Druid) allows it and doesn't mind me burning half of all loot gains on non profitable stuff. Like land for refugees to live on, or fortifications to protect them from "the greenskins", most likely right before driving "the greenskins" out of their home and building a new one for them. Balance is important to my character. :smallamused:

At least I wouldn't be trying to control what the Arty made next. Wilding Clasp? Pfft, I can see through Illusions, ignore mobility blocking effects and get a free boost to my most important stats. Why would I need Magic Items?

If I go Epic, I could probably talk t*D into giving me permanent Mind Blank and Death Ward, along with +12/+10/+8/+6/+4/+2 to my stats and full Energy Immunity. Going by the table in BoED.

Yo Tippy, besides the stuff that increases at X level, how do I translate VoP to Epic levels so it doesn't look broken, but gives me so much stuff, that the most effective way to kill me is to do enough HP damage with basic weapons, to overcome my DR and Regeneration? Or can it only be bigger numbers post Epic?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You DCFS the bonus feats from the vow -then-, in a seperate DCFS itteration, shuffle out VoP.

The first DCFS changes the feats from VoP into completely unassociated feats. When the second DCFS removes the vow, the feats remain as the result of being placed onto your character by a spell, rather than being part of the VoP.

Fair warning: this is some serious TO gouda. Only a fairly lax or RAW oriented DM will let it fly.

[Nymrod]

This thread reminds me why I consider myself CN as a DM. RAW should be rolled up in cigars and lit up, puffing the smoke in the face of rules lawyers.

[Spuddles]

VoP forces some weird behavior bugs in vop characters. But ignoring that, VoP can be worth it in some games.

For instance, I was playing in a game that went from level 1 to level 7 in about a month of in game time, in the wilderness. In that case, the random crap you find in a dungeon isn't really that great. VoP also stacks pretty nicely with, say, being a caster.

But yeah, if you expect appropriate magic items and th ability to optimize your itemization, then VoP is never mechanically worth it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Don't you lose everything gained from VoP, if you lose VoP?
That's why you get rid of VoP last. You have already lost all its bonus feats in the Dark Chaos Shuffle.


Yo Tippy, besides the stuff that increases at X level, how do I translate VoP to Epic levels so it doesn't look broken, but gives me so much stuff, that the most effective way to kill me is to do enough HP damage with basic weapons, to overcome my DR and Regeneration? Or can it only be bigger numbers post Epic?

First go through and find all the items that you would normally take. Now look at the price tag. Now if you are fine with it then pour all of those abilities into Vow of Poverty.

[SaintRidley]

You DCFS the bonus feats from the vow -then-, in a seperate DCFS itteration, shuffle out VoP.

The first DCFS changes the feats from VoP into completely unassociated feats. When the second DCFS removes the vow, the feats remain as the result of being placed onto your character by a spell, rather than being part of the VoP.

Fair warning: this is some serious TO gouda. Only a fairly lax or RAW oriented DM will let it fly.

Of course, any sane DM would rule that the slots themselves (not merely the feats in them) come from VoP, so the moment you lose VoP you lose the slots no matter what is in them.

But yeah, TO gouda requires throwing all sanity to the wind so that doesn't really matter.

[Philistine]

Is there a thing called a "Feat slot" described anywhere in the rules?

[TuggyNE]

Is there a thing called a "Feat slot" described anywhere in the rules?

Sadly, no, although there probably should have been. Putting such a definition into place is probably fairly practical, but not quite trivial.

[Ruethgar]

What is the Chaos Shuffle? I remember reading the spell/power somewhere but can't recall what they were now. 7th level spell to re-write feats or something like that right?

[eggynack]

What is the Chaos Shuffle? I remember reading the spell/power somewhere but can't recall what they were now. 7th level spell to re-write feats or something like that right?
They're two 8th level spells from fiendish codex I. The first is embrace the dark chaos, which can swap out any of your feats for any abyssal heritor feat which you qualify for. The second is shun the dark chaos, which can swap out any abyssal heritor feat for a normal feat which you qualify for. Thus, you can trade all of your feats out for other feats.

[TuggyNE]

They're two 8th level spells from fiendish codex I. The first is embrace the dark chaos, which can swap out any of your feats for any abyssal heritor feat which you qualify for. The second is shun the dark chaos, which can swap out any abyssal heritor feat for a normal feat which you qualify for. Thus, you can trade all of your feats out for other feats.

Note that the DCFS is [chaotic] but not [evil].

[Ruethgar]

Ok, danke. So using AEG's Evil handbook, 1st level feat: Infernal Pact, Flaws: Wealth x2(15,000 each) be an elf, pay to have your racial feats rewritten for 60,000 more gold, rewrite all of your feats and then you have 7 starting feats, a ton of gold, this guy (http://somethingpositive.net/sp04152004.shtml) after you, whom ever the devil/demon stole your new found wealth from, as well as the demon/devil you sold your soul to (a deal you broke by re-writing the feat). I would suggest buying a very strong item against scrying as your first act. lol