Does the creator choose it's creation's feats?

[unseenmage]

Playing a Hordificer and was wondering if I could build some
Caryatid Columns (FF 30) with Intelligent Magic Item (DMG 269) weapons and give the construct the feats:
Item Familiar (UA 170), Least Legacy (WoL 14), and Ancestral Relic (BoED 39)?

If so does anyone have any suggestions as to what the best weapons would be for this endeavor?
Or what Intelligent Item and/or Weapon of Legacy traits would work best?

I also seem to be having trouble finding what CL I'll need to be for Intelligent Magic Item crafting...



Edit: After considering Skysaber's thoughts on the matter I've decided that I'll build several of these uber-weaponed Columns. One for each party role at least.

Starting with whichever the Caryatid Column lends itself towards in the first place. This one will be my personal bodyguard.

[Skysaber]

Statistics given in the various monster manuals are for an "average" specimen. Adventure modules custom stat creatures all of the time, reinforcing this, so there is no reason whatsoever why you can't do the same - within limits. Adding ability scores is outside of the range of most crafters. However feats are easily switched out, as are skills.

Ancestral Relic requires they have a masterwork item that must have belonged to a person to whom you are connected. Usually a family member, but as a golem's creator you could clearly qualify as connected.

Least Legacy just require that item you pass on to be a weapon of legacy. Pay the gold, and gain the feat as a bonus feat.

Item familiar, the only dodgy thing I see is that it calls for 3rd level, your Caryatid Column only has hit dice, no levels. Some DMs could balk at that. Also the investing xp ability is called "invest life energy" and it's really hard to argue toward investing something you don't have, since constructs are not technically alive.

Also, if constructing an intelligent weapon has no specific requirements mentioned, then it defaults to basic, ie, if you can make a weapon, then you can manufacture an intelligent version of it.

Also, what you want the weapon and its abilities to be depends greatly on what you want the construct wielding it to do. Is she going to be a guard standing outside of a tomb for generations? An undercover bodyguard that looks like an expensive date? An assassin? A bank teller? Every role you might have her fill has different requirements on conditions, optimizing what you want her to do.

not knowing what you want her to do, it is impossible to optimize, other than the general guess of "well, he probably wants her good in combat."

But combat against what? Tomb-robbing thieves? An adventuring party? Is she to hold off an assassin or be one herself? All of these approach combat very differently. In one, detection is paramount, in another delaying assassins is, and in yet another delivering a ton of damage fast before escaping, and against an adventuring party she is hosed, but with the right combo of battlefield controls could be effective.

It's all in what you want her to do.

[Maginomicon]

Also the investing xp ability is called "invest life energy" and it's really hard to argue toward investing something you don't have, since constructs are not technically alive.All creatures, construct or not, are still creatures, and can gain XP. So long as the creature gains XP in some fashion, there's no reason the creature shouldn't be able to use that feature. "Invest Life Energy" is just a name, and has no restrictions on who can use it.

Furthermore, any mention of "levels" here should probably be replaced with "Hit Dice" to avoid confusion in this regard.

[unseenmage]

Thank you for your thoughtful and well-put response Skysaber. Your process there even helped me think of what I want the build to do.

The character is a gnome Techsmith of Gond Hordificer. He already has a Gondsman wearing Clockwork Armor, some Effigies, and a crafting Homunculus who acts as his ambassador.

The Gondsman is his friend and son, the Homunculus is his assistant, the effigies are his art on display.

The game is in high power Faerun and right now I'm being wildly outclassed by optimized fighter types and a wizard. Last time my Gondsman got to hit two different creatures once each in three fights. (still gotta find a speed enhancing enchantment for that clockwork armor!)


So I suppose what I need is a private bodyguard. Her abilities geared towards combat based on what role the Caryatid Column lends itself towards in the first place. (very high Str, high Dex, hardness, and naturally has 2 slams)

I'll look into the options more today and tomorrow. Who knows, if she winds up being cool enough maybe I'll use her as a backup character for when her creator dies. (no resurrections in this game anyway so that aspect of construct-dom won't matter as much)

Thanks again.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only requirememts for making an item intelligent are cl 15 and the item must not be expendable (no intelligent potions or scrolls.)

[Skysaber]

Thank you for your thoughtful and well-put response Skysaber. Your process there even helped me think of what I want the build to do.

You're welcome.


The character is a gnome Techsmith of Gond Hordificer. He already has a Gondsman wearing Clockwork Armor, some Effigies, and a crafting Homunculus who acts as his ambassador.

The Gondsman is his friend and son, the Homunculus is his assistant, the effigies are his art on display.

The game is in high power Faerun and right now I'm being wildly outclassed by optimized fighter types and a wizard. Last time my Gondsman got to hit two different creatures once each in three fights. (still gotta find a speed enhancing enchantment for that clockwork armor!)

Effigies? Consider making one of yourself, along with a place for it/you to hide (say in the belly of an effigy of something large that has Swallow Whole). If enchantments/charms or save-or-dies are flying towards your construct, which ignores them, while you peek out of the back of the throat of your giant toad to cast spells, you could be doing alright.

Also, if you are using Gondsmen, one nifty abuse you might consider is how easily they are replaced. 500gp per hit die is insanely cheap for constructs. And since they never get tougher than 13HD, one way you might multiply your strength is to have more of them.

Get a friendly cleric with the Warforged domain and a couple of turning level boosters. Have him Command your Gondsman. You don't have a Gondsman anymore, so can make another. Do so. Two items each grant -4 Turn Resist, which can go negative, so at -8 Turn Resist a 13HD Gondsman turns as a 5HD creature. He can command a couple of them. Just make more until he is filled, and you still have your latest Gondsman.

Best use of this is to apply -8 Turn Resist to a 9HD construct, so you get it as a 1HD critter (most DMs won't allow a free command, so -8 on an 8HD gondsman works out the same as a 9HD one).

Then take the Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment feat, granting you the Warforged domain, and command your constructs right back (loaning the cleric's items briefly to do so. You don't need the turn boosters long). You could easily get a dozen or more of them this way, each specced differently, if you wanted.

Quite a family.

Also, speed is hard to grant to constructs but ranged weapons are easy. Get yourself a Warchanter cohort so everyone in the party is using the same BAB of those optimized fighters, have your gondsmen two-weapon wield hand crossbows, load them with Spell Storing ammo loaded up by your wizard friend ahead of time, make sure they have the feat that lets them shoot into melee without striking friendlies, and go to town.

A dozen gondsmen with two crossbows each, firing spell storing ammo, and you just outpaced the optimized wizard and fighter types for damage.

[unseenmage]

Effigies? Consider making one of yourself, along with a place for it/you to hide (say in the belly of an effigy of something large that has Swallow Whole). If enchantments/charms or save-or-dies are flying towards your construct, which ignores them, while you peek out of the back of the throat of your giant toad to cast spells, you could be doing alright.

This is a good plan. Though I've always been leery of making robot 'replicas' of creatures then poking holes in them for fun. Will definitely have to see if my DM and I can rule-of-cool this idea in somewhere along the line.



Also, if you are using Gondsmen, one nifty abuse you might consider is how easily they are replaced. 500gp per hit die is insanely cheap for constructs. And since they never get tougher than 13HD, one way you might multiply your strength is to have more of them.

Get a friendly cleric with the Warforged domain and a couple of turning level boosters. Have him Command your Gondsman. You don't have a Gondsman anymore, so can make another. Do so. Two items each grant -4 Turn Resist, which can go negative, so at -8 Turn Resist a 13HD Gondsman turns as a 5HD creature. He can command a couple of them. Just make more until he is filled, and you still have your latest Gondsman.

Best use of this is to apply -8 Turn Resist to a 9HD construct, so you get it as a 1HD critter (most DMs won't allow a free command, so -8 on an 8HD gondsman works out the same as a 9HD one).

Then take the Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment feat, granting you the Warforged domain, and command your constructs right back (loaning the cleric's items briefly to do so. You don't need the turn boosters long). You could easily get a dozen or more of them this way, each specced differently, if you wanted.

Quite a family.

Also, speed is hard to grant to constructs but ranged weapons are easy. Get yourself a Warchanter cohort so everyone in the party is using the same BAB of those optimized fighters, have your gondsmen two-weapon wield hand crossbows, load them with Spell Storing ammo loaded up by your wizard friend ahead of time, make sure they have the feat that lets them shoot into melee without striking friendlies, and go to town.

A dozen gondsmen with two crossbows each, firing spell storing ammo, and you just outpaced the optimized wizard and fighter types for damage.

Sadly the group is already slightly uncomfortable with my playing an Artificer from the Eberron books in their tidy little Faerun universe. Even if it does neatly replace the uselessness that is the Gnome Artificer PrC AND mesh excellently with the worship of Gond.

When we started it was decided that the inclusion of the Warforged in their Faerun game wouldn't be allowed so sadly that probably means no Warforged Domain either.

On the other hand I'm totally stealing this idea for the next time I DM.
Think I'll use it for a BBEG and his Cohort/Simulacrum so that he has a cadre of Gondsman at his disposal.


Here's what I wrangled from the books for the Caryatid Column.
- Giving her an Intelligent weapon works nicely as it effectively replaces her crappy mental stats in some ways.
- Spending a little extra gp to let the item speak essentially gives her speech as well.
- Without taking it as a bonus feat (via paying for the founding event) Least Legacy isn't possible as Ancestral Relic has a 3rd lvl prereq and both Item Familiar AND Least Legacy have a 5th lvl prereq.
- Ancestral Relic has a prereq of any Good alignment. Though as the Artificer is a holy man of Gond it should be no problem houseruling that bit to Neutral.
- The founding event for the Weapon of Legacy IS the creation of the Caryatid Column and her super-sword. I doubt I'll be allowed to spam the creation of this particular build of these creatures with that reasoning but it works for the first one at least.
- The time of prayer for the Ancestral Relic is 6 days for this 6HD construct (1 day per 1000gp). I'm thinking of folding that time into the construct's creation and simply having the creator spend an extra 6 days crafting miscellaneous junk to be sacrificed to the Ancestral Relic ritual since it can convert gp OR mundane items of an equal value into enhancement bonus.
- Item familiar is kinda useless to this creature. If she were a character who gained xp, or a spellcaster it wouldn't be but with construct skill points and an Int penalty she just doesn't really have the skill points to spread around.
- Have two options, either ignore the suggested 4,000gp max limit for Weapon of Legacy and have a really really cool weapon OR use Weapon of Legacy to make the item Intelligent and not include any enhancements.

Caryatid Column of Gond
name: Carven or Lynjah in gnomish
CL 10, 20,000gp 800xp
- Two feats replaced with Ancestral Relic and Item Familiar. Gains Least legacy as a bonus feat.

Weapon of the Caryatid Column of Gond
name: Sunderer or Cihtanan in gnomish
CL 15
28,335gp 1,100xp

Base weapon
- MW Aurorum (BoED 38) bastard sword - 4,335gp
- This base material helps keep her super-weapon from being permanently sundered.

Enhancements
+1 2,000gp
+2 Metalline (U 69) 8,000gp
+1 Morphing (U 69) 2,000gp
+1 Sizing (U 69) 2,000gp

Intelligent
- Sheds light
- Two mental stats at 13 each and one mental stat at 10. (Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10)
- Speech (Common and Gnomish)
- Two lesser powers (10 ranks in each Spot and Listen)
- 4,000gp for speech plus 10,000gp for 2 skills at 10 ranks each.

Ancestral Relic
- of Gond, the forge or laboratory itself is a holy place to Gond, the act of item/construct creation is a holy ritual for Gond's followers.
- minus 6,500 gp as mundane gear up to that amount is easily crafted from scratch by the construct's creator.
- plus six days to construction time.

Item Familiar
- With neither spell slots nor the ability to gain xp she's left with only investing her skill points.
- The weapon is created at the same time she is so it is technically there with her from first through sixth HD meaning she can probably invest as many skill points in it as her creator wants her to.
- She puts 1 SP into Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) for her WoL.
- She puts 9 ranks (max) into Diplomacy or Sense Motive
- She invests 3 ranks in her Item Familiar to get a misc +1 bonus to her already maxed skill.

Weapon of Leagacy
- The founding event IS the creation of the Caryatid Column and her weapon.
- Least Legacy, only the 5th and 6th lvl abilities chosen and she puts 1 rank into Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), 1,100xp
- Omen ability: auditory, the sound of hammers and the forge, a tribute to Gond
- Costs via table 4-1 -4hp permanently and 2,500gp
- 5th and 6th Least Abilities, EITHER one menu B ability: Intelligent Legacy OR two menu A abilities: Speed +5 and +1 deflection bonus to AC.

Costs:
+20,000gp and 800xp - for the construction of the Caryatid Column
+4,335gp - base weapon
+14,000gp - for +5 in enhancements (does it have to have the extraneous +1 tacked on there?)
+14,000gp - Intelligent item (ignored if Intelligent Legacy is used)
-6,500gp - for Ancestral Relic, only counts towards enhancements, can be applied after creation if needed.
+2,500gp and 1,100xp - for Weapon of Legacy founding event.

Grand Total: 48,335gp and 1,900xp


Did I miss anything?

[unseenmage]

Quote:

Also, if you are using Gondsmen, one nifty abuse you might consider is how easily they are replaced. 500gp per hit die is insanely cheap for constructs. And since they never get tougher than 13HD, one way you might multiply your strength is to have more of them.

Get a friendly cleric with the Warforged domain and a couple of turning level boosters. Have him Command your Gondsman. You don't have a Gondsman anymore, so can make another. Do so. Two items each grant -4 Turn Resist, which can go negative, so at -8 Turn Resist a 13HD Gondsman turns as a 5HD creature. He can command a couple of them. Just make more until he is filled, and you still have your latest Gondsman.

Best use of this is to apply -8 Turn Resist to a 9HD construct, so you get it as a 1HD critter (most DMs won't allow a free command, so -8 on an 8HD gondsman works out the same as a 9HD one).

Then take the Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment feat, granting you the Warforged domain, and command your constructs right back (loaning the cleric's items briefly to do so. You don't need the turn boosters long). You could easily get a dozen or more of them this way, each specced differently, if you wanted.

Quite a family.

Also, speed is hard to grant to constructs but ranged weapons are easy. Get yourself a Warchanter cohort so everyone in the party is using the same BAB of those optimized fighters, have your gondsmen two-weapon wield hand crossbows, load them with Spell Storing ammo loaded up by your wizard friend ahead of time, make sure they have the feat that lets them shoot into melee without striking friendlies, and go to town.

A dozen gondsmen with two crossbows each, firing spell storing ammo, and you just outpaced the optimized wizard and fighter types for damage.

Sadly the group is already slightly uncomfortable with my playing an Artificer from the Eberron books in their tidy little Faerun universe. Even if it does neatly replace the uselessness that is the Gnome Artificer PrC AND mesh excellently with the worship of Gond.

When we started it was decided that the inclusion of the Warforged in their Faerun game wouldn't be allowed so sadly that probably means no Warforged Domain either.

In researching something else I stumbled on the Domain Draught (MIC 156). With it in mind I might try using this idea after all. Esp. if I can find a method of crafting a construct that takes class levels.

Just a quick question, when the Domain Draught runs out will I still have command of my turned constructs?