Where is the Belkster?

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Oh, no! In 889, we don't see any presence of everyone's favorite psychopath. Of course, like the rest of the illusion, he hasn't gotten to take part.

But what about AFTER the illusion? Where is he now? We don't see him in any of the dialogue, and not even AFTER the illusion ends. Is he in his own little illusion? Is he just off panel? Is he... Dead?

[Cizak]

He's right there as the illusion ends.

[Obscure Blade]

He's right there as the illusion ends.
But we don't see his eyes; he could easily still be locked in the illusion. He wasn't at the illusionary wedding when Elan broke everyone else free after all.

[Crusher]

Oh, you're right. He is just standing there in the second to last panel. He's upright so he's probably not dead. I guess he got his own illusion.

I, for one, am quite interested to see how this turns out.

[Cizak]

But we don't see his eyes; he could easily still be locked in the illusion. He wasn't at the illusionary wedding when Elan broke everyone else free after all.

Sure, but that's irrelevant. OP said he's nowhere to be found, I just pointed out that that's not true.

[Rorrik]

I do hope we get a look at his illusion, it's probably awesome.

I think in his illusion, he died like in everyone else's and is now rolling cigars from badly written legal documents with Sojo.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Sure, but that's irrelevant. OP said he's nowhere to be found, I just pointed out that that's not true.

I indeed did think that. Thanks for pointing it out - I didn't actually notice that he was technically there. It does at least (probably) eliminate the possibility of him being dead, considering he appeared to be standing.

[orrion]

He isn't fully featured because that last big panel is carefully constructed to show Roy, Haley, and Elan breaking out of the illusory world together. Since Belkar died in the illusory world he has no place in that panel.

As for why he isn't fully in the final added panel, I'd just say there wasn't room or need for it. He's got no dialogue and Elan's dialogue carries over from the illusory world.

He'll show up in the next comic.

[Vinsfeld]

I think that when he died in the illusion, he continued in the illusion-world, but maybe he's experiencing what he his heart wants "hell" to be like.

[veti]

As for why he isn't fully in the final added panel, I'd just say there wasn't room or need for it. He's got no dialogue and Elan's dialogue carries over from the illusory world.

Wasn't room for him...? Yes, curse those mandatory standard sizes the Giant always uses! If only he could have drawn the party fractionally smaller to allow them all to fit in the panel!

Seriously, that omission can only be deliberate, to create precisely the cliffhanger we're talking about here.


He'll show up in the next comic.

I'm sure you're right, because the only alternative is that the next comic cuts away to someone else... and I don't think this particular cliffhanger is strong enough to hold that long.

[Roland Itiative]

and is now rolling cigars from badly written legal documents with Sojo.
That would imply he's Chaotic Good like Shojo (or at least thinks of himself/hopes to be Chaotic Good), so nope :smalltongue:

[Rakoa]

That would imply he's Chaotic Good like Shojo (or at least thinks of himself/hopes to be Chaotic Good), so nope :smalltongue:

Maybe his bluff role was high enough to fool those in charge of Afterlife Admissions?

Yeah, not bloody likely.

[orrion]

Wasn't room for him...? Yes, curse those mandatory standard sizes the Giant always uses! If only he could have drawn the party fractionally smaller to allow them all to fit in the panel!

Seriously, that omission can only be deliberate, to create precisely the cliffhanger we're talking about here.



I'm sure you're right, because the only alternative is that the next comic cuts away to someone else... and I don't think this particular cliffhanger is strong enough to hold that long.

Well, nobody asked what happened to Mr. Scruffy either and the kitty isn't even given an outline in the final panel.

Yeah, of course. Because absolutely every little thing Rich does or doesn't do has some larger implication or larger story behind it. Except that it doesn't.

The next part of the plot itself is enough of a cliffhanger without Belkar speculation. For example:

How long have they been under the illusion? All sorts of things could have happened in the interim.

[Obscure Blade]

The next part of the plot itself is enough of a cliffhanger without Belkar speculation. For example:

How long have they been under the illusion? All sorts of things could have happened in the interim.
Belkar's condition could be part of the plot. For example, perhaps the illusion can't be broken from outside by any method they have available.

[Shivore]

Wasn't room for him...? Yes, curse those mandatory standard sizes the Giant always uses! If only he could have drawn the party fractionally smaller to allow them all to fit in the panel!

Seriously, that omission can only be deliberate, to create precisely the cliffhanger we're talking about here.

Yes, there wasn't room. The Giant has proven again and again that he understands principles of art and design, and following those he wouldn't have made the party smaller just to fit Belkar in for no reason, because that would have diminished the visual impact of the effect significantly.

It's much more appropriate to point out that including the visually distracting element of Belkar on the edge of the panel at all, had to be a calculated move to show us he is still there and still standing.

[King of Nowhere]

I believe belkar's illusion will involve plenty of whores.
Showing it could be a good way to make fanservice, especially if drawn in a more realistic art :smallsmile:

[konradknox]

Belkar's illusion:

1. Sexy shoeless god of war part 2, mass murder, but with high level creatures instead of hobgoblins.

2. All the whores you can eat.

3. Some form of realization of the folly of his ways, and redemption, tuning into his ranger profession, getting close to nature.

4. Meeting up with Shojo and Scruffy in the afterlife and introducing them to his grandma and he amazing cooking.

[talkamancer]

Belkar's illusion:

2. All the whores you can eat.


And then vooom he was gone. Like a rat up an aquaduct.

[Cavenskull]

This whole thing could still be an illusion. We won't know for sure until we can see whether or not Belkar is wearing an eyepatch.

[Niknokitueu]

We will not know for sure until the next time Belkar is shown, face-forwards, face-on-screen, but it will be one of the following:

1) He is dead. Unlikely due to him standing up, but included for completeness.
2) He is still livin' the dream. My personal vote, as the party will have to work out a way of snapping him out of the dream without killing him fer realz.
3) He is okay, and it was just a bluff by Rich. Yeah. Right. Sure. Again unlikely but included for completeness.

I can forsee extra humour being extracted from option 2, which is also another good reason it should go that way. Either way, roll on 890!

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[gerryq]

There are quite a few possibilities, IMO. The ones that seem most likely to me:

- he is living an independent dream and will have to be woken from it. We will be given hints of what it was, but the depravity will be such that Rich will forbear from drawing it in detail

- he is awake and pretty ticked off that he was dead in the communal illusion

- he was dead in the illusion and still thinks he was; they will have to convince him that he is being resurrected

- he is dead for real (least likely IMO, but possible)

[karkus]

Maybe he was never in any illusion, and this is the first time he's ever made his Will save? :smallamused:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Maybe he was never in any illusion, and this is the first time he's ever made his Will save? :smallamused:

I doubt the dream-world spell allows a save. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15300310&postcount=22) Especially not one that Belkar could make. (If the highest possible dice roll would not be enough to succeed, it's beyond them and the character can't attempt it at all; no "success on natural 20" because there is no roll.)

Also someone who specifically dislikes paladins would probably not implement an Ultimate Trap that completely relies on overcoming saving throws. "Excellent saves and lots of bonuses to them" is one of the class's strong points. That would be like someone who hates evil clerics devising a scheme that can be defeated by inflict spells. I'd be kind of surprised if the runes don't affect intelligent undead.

[Emanick]

I doubt the dream-world spell allows a save. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15300310&postcount=22) Especially not one that Belkar could make. (If the highest possible dice roll would not be enough to succeed, it's beyond them and the character can't attempt it at all; no "success on natural 20" because there is no roll).

But that doesn't make any sense. If the spell didn't allow a save, a caster could basically achieve an insta-win against literally anyone by casting it on them, because the targets would be utterly vulnerable to any form of attack while under the illusion.

I don't see why we need to assume that the spell is insanely overpowered. It's already perfectly plausible that Roy, Haley, Elan and Belkar all failed an epic-level Will save; why conclude that they only entered the illusion because it was impossible not to?

[rodneyAnonymous]

If the spell didn't allow a save, a caster could basically achieve an insta-win against literally anyone by casting it on them, because the targets would be utterly vulnerable to any form of attack while under the illusion.

Yep. And if the Illusion Trap had a fatal flaw like allowing a Will save, then Girard would have implemented a different trap without that fatal flaw.


I don't see why we need to assume that the spell is insanely overpowered. It's already perfectly plausible that Roy, Haley, Elan and Belkar all failed an epic-level Will save; why conclude that they only entered the illusion because it was impossible not to?

("Overpowered" is a value judgement I do not agree with, nor do I think it is "perfectly plausible" that they failed a Will save, because I think it's implausible they made an attempt at all. Note that microcosm (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Microcosm) does not allow saves; there are other ways to avoid it, like power resistance, but if Psionics Is Different than arcane or divine magic then non-psi targets are screwed.)

Yes I assume the spell is extremely powerful. It's an epic illusionist's ultimate final (?) defense of a cornerstone of reality. It still wouldn't be 100% effective. There are other ways to defeat that trap. Like not falling into it.

[Emanick]

Yep. And if the Illusion Trap had a fatal flaw like allowing a Will save, then Girard would have implemented a different trap without that fatal flaw.



("Overpowered" is a value judgement I do not agree with, nor do I think it is "perfectly plausible" that they failed a Will save, because I think it's implausible they made an attempt at all.)

Yes I assume the spell is extremely powerful. It's an epic illusionist's ultimate final (?) defense of a cornerstone of reality. It still wouldn't be 100% effective. There are other ways to defeat that trap. Like not falling into it.

I don't think you grasp, though, that even epic spells can't be insta-win spells. No spell in the Epic Level Handbook is an insta-win spell. But if the spell in this trap was cast by an actual caster and did not require a saving throw, it would translate into an 100% guaranteed victory for the caster, no matter how powerful the opponent, as long as said caster was capable of executing a coup de grace.

You are effectively assuming that this trap is more powerful than literally anything else in the SRD, epic or not. You may think that's reasonable, but I certainly do not.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't think you grasp, though, that even epic spells can't be insta-win spells. No spell in the Epic Level Handbook is an insta-win spell. But if the spell in this trap was cast by an actual caster and did not require a saving throw, it would translate into an 100% guaranteed victory for the caster, no matter how powerful the opponent, as long as said caster was capable of executing a coup de grace.

You are effectively assuming that this trap is more powerful than literally anything else in the SRD, epic or not. You may think that's reasonable, but I certainly do not.

That is just not true. Saving throws aren't the only way spell effects can be avoided. Lots of spells don't allow saving throws, some spells are insta-win if they work, and a few spells are both. "100% guaranteed victory" is making a lot of assumptions, for starters that there's no way to get to the Gate without being affected by the illusion trap. "If you fall into the trap, it will definitely kill you, regardless of your level" is totally believable.

Runes that cast earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) and make the hallway collapse would be a stronger defense than an illusion effect that can be broken by a saving throw.

[Emanick]

That is just not true. Saving throws aren't the only way spell effects can be avoided. Lots of spells don't allow saving throws. "100% guaranteed victory" is making a lot of assumptions, for starters that there's no way to get to the Gate without being affected by the illusion trap.

Runes that exploded and made the hallway collapse would be a stronger defense than an illusion effect that can be broken by a saving throw.

Yes, but no spell that doesn't allow a saving throw renders the target helpless for an extended period of time. Even Power Word Kill, which is probably stronger than some epic spells and doesn't require a save, lets you survive if you have over 100 hit points.

It's irrelevant whether there's a way to get to the Gate without being affected by the illusion trap. The point is that if the illusion really did render the target helpless for an extended period of time with no saving throw, it would be impossible to defend against and basically equate to instant victory for the caster - because if the spell can be put into a trap, it can also be cast in battle. Runes that exploded and made the hallway collapse could be survived if you had enough hitpoints. But a spell that makes you helpless for minutes on end without giving you a chance to defend yourself is impossible to survive in the presence of an enemy, no matter how strong you are. Nothing like that exists in D&D.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah, exactly, PW:K (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Power_Word_Kill) is a death effect that doesn't allow a save. Its limitation is based on something else (target's hit points). That's all I'm saying: it's gotta be something else, allowing saves (especially repeated opportunities) would make it a lot weaker.

"...without giving you a chance to defend yourself..." Uh, yeah, I said it probably doesn't allow Will saves, not that there is no way to defend against it at all. Clearly there is: Elan broke out of it from inside, and got Belkar out of it from outside.

[jere7my]

But a spell that makes you helpless for minutes on end without giving you a chance to defend yourself is impossible to survive in the presence of an enemy, no matter how strong you are. Nothing like that exists in D&D.

Familicide doesn't exist in D&D either.

[Emanick]

Familicide doesn't exist in D&D either.

Yeah, but we have no evidence that Familicide doesn't offer a saving throw, either; it's perfectly plausible that none of the dragons were able to overcome Haerta's save DC, given that she seems to have been the most powerful evil spellcaster ever to exist in OOTSverse. So that's not really relevant.

In any case, Rodney, I agree, as long as we're assuming there's a way to break out of it pretty much immediately; otherwise, there's no functional difference between the illusion and an "insta-win spell." Any epic-level caster is capable of killing any helpless target within a few rounds, if not with an immediate coup de grace, so Girard would essentially be invincible if the spell didn't allow a more-or-less-immediate way to defeat it.

[137beth]

But a spell that makes you helpless for minutes on end without giving you a chance to defend yourself is impossible to survive in the presence of an enemy, no matter how strong you are. Nothing like that exists in D&D.
So what, spells without saving throws don't exist:smallconfused:

[Emanick]

So what, spells without saving throws don't exist:smallconfused:

Of course they do, but none of those spell have the ability to kill anyone, irrespective of hit points, level, etc. A spell with no saving throw that makes its target helpless for an extended period of time goes waaaaaaaaay beyond that, essentially making its caster invincible.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Of course they do, but none of those spell have the ability to kill anyone, irrespective of hit points, level, etc. (emphasis added)

No one said anything about that! Just no saving throw! Of course the spell might have other limitations.

[Emanick]

No one said anything about that! Just no saving throw! Of course the spell might have other limitations.

I know; sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you were disputing that. I was simply trying to explain my point in full to 137ben, who didn't seem to understand what I was getting at.

[jere7my]

Yeah, but we have no evidence that Familicide doesn't offer a saving throw, either; it's perfectly plausible that none of the dragons were able to overcome Haerta's save DC, given that she seems to have been the most powerful evil spellcaster ever to exist in OOTSverse. So that's not really relevant.

It's relevant because these epic-level spells clearly function according to plot, not according to D&D rules. If there can be a spell that kills all Draketeeth and 1/4 of all dragons, including Great Wyrms, there can be a spell that mesmerizes everyone who walks down a hallway. I don't think Rich particularly cares about saving throws or game balance for epic spells.

[Emanick]

It's relevant because these epic-level spells clearly function according to plot, not according to D&D rules. If there can be a spell that kills all Draketeeth and 1/4 of all dragons, including Great Wyrms, there can be a spell that mesmerizes everyone who walks down a hallway. I don't think Rich particularly cares about saving throws or game balance for epic spells.

We're discussing the invisible minutia of a spell that will almost certainly never be seen on panel again. Saying that "the spell functions according to plot" makes no sense. There is no plot beyond what The Giant writes, and as he did not care to write in the details of how Girard's illusion functions, "the plot" can hardly be used as a justification for a detail the author probably never considered and that we are discussing purely (I assume) out of personal interest. I could claim that Epic Teleport doesn't work on unwilling targets who are aware of what is going on and make a saving throw, because of "the plot," but that doesn't make me right outside my own headcanon, because nothing in the comic relates to my point.

Of course anything CAN happen in Rich's comic. Girard can have an insane spell that makes him functionally invincible by letting him automatically paralyze any given target in his/her own dreamworld for up to an hour before he/she is able to make a saving throw, giving him 600 rounds in which to kill said target. (This is an example; obviously nobody has made this precise suggestion.) I just don't think that this is likely.

[jere7my]

We're discussing the invisible minutia of a spell that will almost certainly never be seen on panel again. Saying that "the spell functions according to plot" makes no sense. There is no plot beyond what The Giant writes, and as he did not care to write in the details of how Girard's illusion functions, "the plot" can hardly be used as a justification for a detail the author probably never considered

Saying it is a plot-based effect is another way of saying it is pointless to discuss it in terms of D&D rules. These epic spells behave in ways that don't fit with game balance, so any attempt to shoehorn them into the rule framework is bound to fail. But if you're enjoying yourself, don't let me stop you.

I think we're very likely to see it again, btw. Nale et al. are probably going to walk down that hallway too.

[factotum]

Of course they do, but none of those spell have the ability to kill anyone, irrespective of hit points, level, etc. A spell with no saving throw that makes its target helpless for an extended period of time goes waaaaaaaaay beyond that, essentially making its caster invincible.

See "Otto's Irresistible Dance"--it was definitely in 1st edition AD&D, not sure if it's been in subsequent editions. Basically, it's a spell with no saving throw that prevented the target doing anything other than dance for several rounds.

[deworde]

See "Otto's Irresistible Dance"--it was definitely in 1st edition AD&D, not sure if it's been in subsequent editions. Basically, it's a spell with no saving throw that prevented the target doing anything other than dance for several rounds.

Oh wow. Could you control the dance style (e.g. turn your pirouette into a spinning kick)? Or at least where you danced to to try and get some distance?

[veti]

Oh wow. Could you control the dance style (e.g. turn your pirouette into a spinning kick)? Or at least where you danced to to try and get some distance?

Neither of those, no. 'Caper and prance in place' is the description I can find online, and it agrees with my dim recollection of the 1e description.

The catch is, it's a touch spell. So it was seldom used in combat, because that would mean your wizard had to get within touch range of the target, cast the spell, and then make an attack roll (at which wizards, then even more than now, sucked). If that failed, of course, you'd wasted a high-level spell slot.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, the spell appears to be an epic arcane version of Microcosm:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

So it would appear there might be some basis for a discussion of the rules involved.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Note that the ability description says "Saving throws: None".

[Kish]

Oh wow. Could you control the dance style (e.g. turn your pirouette into a spinning kick)? Or at least where you danced to to try and get some distance?
No need to rely on vague memories of 1ed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)

[Emanick]

Thanks, Bulldog!


Note that the ability description says "Saving throws: None".

It also only affects individuals with 100 or fewer hit points (unless extra power points are spent), or with 30 or fewer hit points if multiple people are being affected. So in that sense it would seem to be similar to Power Word Kill - the thought being, I assume, that turning an opponent catatonic during a battle is tantamount to killing them.


No need to rely on vague memories of 1ed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)

Thanks, Kish!

It looks like Otto's Irresistable Dance just lowers the target's Armor Class and Reflex save bonus for several rounds, so it wouldn't be nearly as effective as this spell for paralyzing an opponent. Still, interesting to examine for comparative purposes.

[Sir_Leorik]

It looks like Otto's Irresistable Dance just lowers the target's Armor Class and Reflex save bonus for several rounds, so it wouldn't be nearly as effective as this spell for paralyzing an opponent. Still, interesting to examine for comparative purposes.

The subject feels an undeniable urge to dance and begins doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place. The effect imposes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and a -10 penalty on Reflex saves, and it negates any AC bonus granted by a shield the target holds. The dancing subject provokes attacks of opportunity each round on its turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)

[Emanick]

The subject feels an undeniable urge to dance and begins doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place. The effect imposes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and a -10 penalty on Reflex saves, and it negates any AC bonus granted by a shield the target holds. The dancing subject provokes attacks of opportunity each round on its turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)

Sorry, poor word choice on my part. By "just," I meant "as compared to being completely helpless." I thought it was implicit that I understood that Otto's Irresistible Dance made the target unable to do anything but dance, but reading over my post again, that was a silly assumption to make. :smallredface:

[rodneyAnonymous]

It also only affects individuals with 100 or fewer hit points...

Yep. But no saving throw.

You're evidently arguing with an imaginary opponent who thinks the illusion trap has no limitations at all.

[orrion]

See "Otto's Irresistible Dance"--it was definitely in 1st edition AD&D, not sure if it's been in subsequent editions. Basically, it's a spell with no saving throw that prevented the target doing anything other than dance for several rounds.

Is that really relevant to this discussion?

Remember the Gygax strip? "The Hall of Characters Who Died Without a Saving Throw?" Tomb of Horrors?

Game has evolved since then, so dredging up an example from 1st Edition doesn't do much.

[factotum]

Game has evolved since then, so dredging up an example from 1st Edition doesn't do much.

Except, as someone pointed out after I made my comment, this spell still exists in the SRD and is thus part of 3rd edition at least. I didn't know if it was in later editions or not, because it's a long time since I played D&D--was hoping someone would come along and confirm if it was there or not, and they did!

[Sir_Leorik]

Is that really relevant to this discussion?

Remember the Gygax strip? "The Hall of Characters Who Died Without a Saving Throw?" Tomb of Horrors?

Game has evolved since then, so dredging up an example from 1st Edition doesn't do much.

I believe this is what you were referring to: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation)


A sphere of annihilation is a globe of absolute blackness, a ball of nothingness 2 feet in diameter. The object is actually a hole in the continuity of the multiverse. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

Acererak left a Sphere of Annihilation floating a centimeter away from the interior of a crevasse and disguised the front of the crevasse to resemble a statue of a demon. The trap was that players would have their PCs search the mouth of the statue for traps or for treasure, and would be disintegrated on contact with the Sphere. The normal precautions that can be taken when dealing with a Sphere of Annihilation assume that someone is controlling it and moving it towards you; by setting the trap up this way there was no way to see it coming.

[Emanick]

Yep. But no saving throw.

You're evidently arguing with an imaginary opponent who thinks the illusion trap has no limitations at all.
I'm not trying to rebut anyone in particular. I'm trying to articulate a particular viewpoint, that's all, and one that you initially appeared to disagree with. Since I figured out what you were actually saying, everybody else has been quarreling with other aspects of my point, so I've been trying to establish a consensus, to see if there are any other points of contention.

Evidently my communication skills need some work. :smalltongue: