[EXALTED] Sorcery and You!

[TimeWizard]

Hello Playground! Let us cut to the chase: I don't know much about magic. I want to make a Sorcerer character for 2.5 E, and I need some help. You guys and gals have continuously impressed me your knowledge and skill, so here's the "deets" as the kids are saying these days*. I want to make an Onmyoji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onmy%C5%8Dd%C5%8D), a Yin Yang Mage (they were the Oracle class in Final Fantasy Tactics) However, I don't know anything about magic in Exalted. I intend to play a Twilight, the default mage class. So:

1) Can I rely on my magic to save me in fights or do I need extensive charm support to cover me with magic being the "big finish"?

2) What are the best spells to have for each Circle? What should I avoid? What are the bread-and-butter spells to take?

3) How soon should I move into each new tier of magic? Immediately? After I get the essentials of each tier?

4) Do you balance Necromancy and Solar Sorcery? Is it best to take them at the same time? Do they have different specialties, i.e. damage, debuffs, AoE, etc?

5) Is it a waste to learn the TMA Wood Dragon Style? I know TMA's aren't very powerful but it does fit thematically and has many useful spirit abilities.

Thank you all for your time!






* I do not know what the kids are saying these days.

[Tavar]

1) Can I rely on my magic to save me in fights or do I need extensive charm support to cover me with magic being the "big finish"?
Short answer: No/yes.
Long answer: It's complicated, but sorcery is really bad at direct, person to person combat. I mean, even when one could use it that way, it's hugely inefficient.

Sorcery has more of a place in buffs, summoning, infrastructural things, and mass combat(especially if you use some homebrew stuff).

Of course, your magic will save you in fights: charms are magic. More importantly, charms are where you'll find your actual combat abilities, so if you really want to be a combat mage, well, stick to charms(it can be easier with non-solars, but even solars have their magical effects).

2) What are the best spells to have for each Circle? What should I avoid? What are the bread-and-butter spells to take?
Counter magics and the Summons are probably the most basic essential spells. I think someone's done a list, so you also might try looking for that.

3) How soon should I move into each new tier of magic? Immediately? After I get the essentials of each tier?
Depends on what exactly you want out of the magic. Generally, I'd classify spells in 4 ways: essential, generally good, situational, worthless. Unfortunately, many spells vary based on how exactly the ST runs things. If your st never uses sorcerers, or never uses terrestrial sorcerers, counter magic spells of various levels might not be as good. I would say a good rule of thumb is to always get the essentials of any tier before moving on, and if you want or feel it's very useful get some of the other effects as well. Be careful, though, sorcery as it stands can be quite the resource sink.

4) Do you balance Necromancy and Solar Sorcery? Is it best to take them at the same time? Do they have different specialties, i.e. damage, debuffs, AoE, etc?
Generally, no, it's not, especially since Necromancy is...troubled. Basically, Necromancy is rather rigidly designed, with lots of combat stuff(but, as you'll remember, Sorcery/Necromancy is really, really bad at combat). There are also many 'NPC only' effects, though those are more in the 3rd circle.

5) Is it a waste to learn the TMA Wood Dragon Style? I know TMA's aren't very powerful but it does fit thematically and has many useful spirit abilities.
Wood Dragon Style is a CMA, not a TMA. If it really fits, go for it, but be warned that the style is in serious need of a mechanics overhaul. Also, unless you're a Sidereal or Dragonblooded, learning the style might be difficult. You might try making(or having someone else make) a CMA for you.

[TimeWizard]

Short answer: No/yes.
Long answer: It's complicated, but sorcery is really bad at direct, person to person combat. I mean, even when one could use it that way, it's hugely inefficient.

Sorcery has more of a place in buffs, summoning, infrastructural things, and mass combat(especially if you use some homebrew stuff).


We don't do Mass Combat by the rules, unfortunately, but in the last campaign there were a few war scenes (we did the strike team stuff) so that could be cool. What can I do to affect armies? How does Demon Summoning work? Is it like DnD where they just heed my call or is it Faustian with a huge drawback? And buffs: are we talking stuff like Extra Actions, Improved Defense, Better Attacks?

Other than the 5 Elemental Dragon Styles, is their a Martial Art Style that replicates the Yin/Yang, divination-y feng shui magic kung-fu thing?

[TheCountAlucard]

I intend to play a Twilight, the default mage class.Any caste can be a sorcerer, though. Even favoring Occult isn't necessary, though it IS recommended.


1) Can I rely on my magic to save me in fights or do I need extensive charm support to cover me with magic being the "big finish"?Charms are and should be the bread-and-butter of every Exalt, even sorcerers and martial artists.

That said, most spells of the Celestial or Solar Circle take such an epic amount of time to cast that by the time you have Shaped it, the battle may well be resolved.


2) What are the best spells to have for each Circle? What should I avoid? What are the bread-and-butter spells to take?Flight of Separation works as a decent "escape" spell, since it takes no time to cast and can be done reflexively, but using it is also essentially ceding the fight. Still a decent trump card to have.

Since you mention Wood Dragon Style, you might like Cirrus Skiff; it conjures a cloud that serves as, among other things, a great archery platform.

Invulnerable Skin of Bronze is great for being less squishy, and better still, has a nice duration.

Wood Dragon's Claw is likewise nice if you ever have to get up close and personal to fight, and even counts as unarmed! :smallbiggrin:

On that note, most "direct damage" spells aren't very useful against Exalted-level opponents - Death of Obsidian Butterflies will mess up a platoon of green troops horrifically, but it's a tremendous waste against, say, three Dragon-Blooded.

Demon of the First Circle is and probably will always be the sorcerer's most useful and versatile tool.


3) How soon should I move into each new tier of magic? Immediately? After I get the essentials of each tier?Depends on the character, really.


4) Do you balance Necromancy and Solar Sorcery?Sadly, there is no balance between them. Necromancy is useful for ghost-summoning/banishing, messing with said ghosts, and more easily getting into the Underworld and/or Labyrinth. Beyond that is just really niche parlor tricks.


Do they have different specialties, i.e. damage, debuffs, AoE, etc?Eh. Most of it is "like sorcery, but all death-y. And if it's not it's worse than equivalent sorcery." :smallyuk:

[TheCountAlucard]

What can I do to affect armies?There's a Solar Circle spell in White Treatise that increases your army's power significantly as long as you can keep your arms raised up. Or, if you're far enough away and ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN they don't have someone who can parry it back like a hellish nuclear baseball, lobbing a Total Annihilation into the middle of their camp works.


How does Demon Summoning work? Is it like DnD where they just heed my call or is it Faustian with a huge drawback?The demon, provided you succeed on binding its will to yours, will serve you a year and a day. They need a careful eye kept on them, though, as their life in hell has given them a very alien mindset.

Recommended First Circle Demons:

Teodozjia - Very potent combatant, had other uses as well. DO NOT summon if there is a Zenith in the group, or a chance of meeting a Zenith. It will not end well.

Erythmanoi - Good runner-up if Zenithy reasons prevent you having Teodozjia.

Stomach Bottle Bug - Useful healers, keep at least one around. Maybe even several, if you want more than one thing patched up at once.

Perronele - Useful as armor if you don't already have some or have alien anatomy. Summon one for your combat demon.

Agatae - Great mount if you don't want to invest in a travel spell.

[TimeWizard]

I am curious as to how one parries a spell like a nuclear baseball. Is this an aspect of counter-magic?

Also, I am aware that anyone can learn Sorcery, but I thought I'd try a Twilight because I haven't played one. I understand their unique ability is really good.

So, what spells should I take? Any charm tips? I'm thinking of taking Archery and Dodge to remain out of troubles way until I Magic the Things. To Death.

[TheCountAlucard]

I am curious as to how one parries a spell like a nuclear baseball. Is this an aspect of counter-magic?No, it's an explicit weakness of the Total Annihilation spell. If it's perfectly parried, he knocks it in a different direction, possibly back at you. If you suspect someone in the enemy camp can do that, go with Magma Kraken instead.

[Tavar]

I am curious as to how one parries a spell like a nuclear baseball. Is this an aspect of counter-magic?
Weakness of the spell itself. I would highly suggest EarthScorpions rewrite of the spell.


Also, I am aware that anyone can learn Sorcery, but I thought I'd try a Twilight because I haven't played one. I understand their unique ability is really good.
It used to be really good(it was a key component in the invulnerable reactor builds). Now, well, it's kinda bad.

[TimeWizard]

Invulnerable Reactor Build?

[Tavar]

A method by which you gained motes with every attack directed at you. Combined with pre-2.5 perfects, it was, well, invinicible.

[Tome]

Sorcery is basically a grab-bag of tricks for use outside of combat from my experiences. Combat sorcery is terrible.

A Terrestrial spell takes two rounds to cast, during which you cannot defend yourself, costs a significant chunk of your available motes and will generally hit only slightly harder than a skilled mortal if it's a combat spell. Whereas a combat charm will cost a fraction of the motes and let you hit several times harder.

Higher circle spells will add more rounds where you stand around being defenceless and doing nothing.

Most spells also have a tendency to be very niche, the sort of thing you use once in a campaign and then it never comes up again. This is why the summoning spells are so useful, because they give you so many tricks for a single spell. What with spells costing the same as charms in terms of xp, that's important.

I'd recommend you pick up some basic charms for combat (especially the Excellency) and then grab the countermagic and summoning spells. Beyond that, I'd wait until you know what sort of campaign it's going to be before you pick more specialised charms.

Also, bear in mind that Exalted sorcery is very different to D&D magic. It's spells tend to have long casting times, strange effects and obscure requirements. If you want stuff that just works, go for standard charms. For example there is no straight up 'Invisibility' spell - that's a stealth charm.

[TimeWizard]

I get it now. Sorcery in Exalted is that part of a story where everyone protects the guy who needs like 5 minutes to cast an apocalyptic spell.

[Tavar]

A Terrestrial spell takes two rounds to cast, during which you cannot defend yourself, costs a significant chunk of your available motes and will generally hit only slightly harder than a skilled mortal if it's a combat spell. Whereas a combat charm will cost a fraction of the motes and let you hit several times harder.
Not entirely true anymore: you can now defend yourself while casting, though you do take quite a hit(-2 to dv's). You can use charms, though.

I get it now. Sorcery in Exalted is that part of a story where everyone protects the guy who needs like 5 minutes to cast an apocalyptic spell.
Eh....that's what it's trying for, sometimes. It rarely gets it, though.

I'd suggest some of Earthscorpion's spells, found here (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1jmxwx7FPXA-jzWJiv2fyCGeJQGQu2QomFTs5j45mPec). Not too many, but those that are there are now more effective. Also, Magma Kraken is probably a bit of an exception to the Sorcery in combat rule(it summons a kraken made of magma, what more do you need to know?). Also, his apocalyptic spells are actually, well, apocalyptic.

[horngeek]

...damm, that Rune of Singular Hate is impressive.

[Tavar]

For 9 permanent limit(that doesn't diminish for some time)? It better be.

[Tome]

Going back to the original question for a moment...

If you want to replicate the Oracle from FFT, you're better off being an Eclipse and grabbing some dragonblooded or spirit charms to augment your solar melee. Throwing elemental energy blasts, which is how FFT's magic manifested, at people is more of a spirit/dragonblooded thing than a Sorcery thing. Solars don't really have access to it natively, but an Eclipse caste can learn their charms anyway.

If you want to do stuff more like a classical Onmyoji, you'd be better off with some thaumaturgy. Thaumaturgy with an Excellency backing it can get some pretty impressive results if used right. Maybe get some Occult/Holy charms.

You could even do both if you wanted.

[TimeWizard]

whats Thaumaturgy in Exalted?

[Tavar]

whats Thaumaturgy in Exalted?

Thaumaturgy is science in a world where you can go and ask physics to please do something, and physics may just do that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thaumaturgy is science in a world where you can go and ask physics to please do something, and physics may just do that.
That may be the best description of anything I've ever heard.

[The Rose Dragon]

I thought physics was robot spiders in Heaven with a difficult job that everyone else is intent on making even harder.

Poor robot spiders in Heaven. No one appreciates how dutiful they are.

[Crumplepunch]

Sorcery isn't good for combat, but I love it all the same.

1) Learn your summons. Pick over the Rolls of Glorious Divinity for demons and elementals that you find useful. By the time you are done, almost any problem will be soluble by summoning the appropriate demon or elemental. Summon a Kri to tunnel you a path through the mountain side. Summon a Harenhal to repair the bridge. Summon a Doldrum to becalm the storm (or your enemy's ship). They are by far the most versatile spells, and nothing says "sorcerer" like a magical entourage.

2) Sorcery works best with patience. Even a Terrestrial Circle sorcerer can be quite formidable if he takes a long view of things. Your sorcerer was beheaded by a Dawn? Not to worry, that wasn't actually you, that was an unfortunate mortal you possessed with Sorcerer's Irresistable Puppetry and disguised as yourself using Disguise of the New Face. Local Satrap giving you trouble? The Spy Who Walks In Darkness can shadow-step into his room at night and kill him with any spell you like. Be creative. Try to think of creative, preferably non-combat (if not non-violent) applications for your sorcery that can assist your situation.

3) Social Sorcery is badass. This is an oft-overlooked aspect of sorcery. In stark contrast with combat sorcery, social sorcery is very effective. Spells like Disguise of the New Face (magically disguise yourself or anyone else) Peacock Shadow Eyes (magical hypnosis and memory manipulation), Droning Suggestion (mass Unnatural Mental Influence), Sorcerer's Irresistible Puppetry (which lets you rifle through memories) and Theft of Memory (which lets you steal *and delete* memories) can dominate social encounters in an evil-overlord sort of way. They are especially good for Dragon-Bloods, whose own social charms are comparatively weak.

4) Enhance your sorcery with artifacts and hearthstones. There are two specifically sorcerous artifacts. The Sorcery-Capturing Cord lets you block and capture enemy sorcery, or your own. It requires no commitment and can store three spells, the power of which depends on it's artifact level. Even going with Terrestrial sorcery (artifact 3), being able to drop three spells in a stressful situation without mote cost or casting time is a tremendous advantage. Then we have the Metasorcerous Phylactery. At artifact 4 and requiring a high level hearthstone to function, it's an investment, but it makes every spell vastly more versatile, extending range, or power, or manifestation. Its trigger function is especially useful, giving you even more spells to cast on the fly without even willpower cost.

[The_Snark]

To expand on the above answers: thaumaturgy is a blanket term for a number of magical rituals which can be performed by anyone who knows how to do it properly. Some are simple enough that literally anyone can do it (like the ritual for summoning ghosts), others are complicated enough that only experts have a chance (that is, you have to learn them with XP).

It's almost always less powerful than sorcery or necromancy, but it's a lot easier to learn - all you need is Occult, meaning that even unenlightened mortals can learn it. (As opposed to Occult, Essence 3, and the Five Ordeals.) And there are a few things it can do that spells don't really cover.

It's grouped into the following categories:

The Art of Alchemy is all about brewing pseudo-magical potions and drugs, such as age-staving cordial.
The Art of Astrology allows you to predict the future, or at least glean hints of Fate's plan for the future. It's time-consuming and requires lots of charts, birth dates and so on, and it may be annoyingly vague, but when is divination ever precise and accurate in a tabletop game? It's the best you're going to get.
The Art of the Dead includes rites for dealing with the dead: calling ghosts, exorcisms, speaking with corpses, even re-animating zombies. Less powerful than necromancy, but also a lot easier to learn.
The Art of Demon Summoning allows you to summon demons. Go figure. Important note: unlike sorcery, it doesn't give you any control over said demons, meaning it's used mostly by cultists. Also includes wards and banishment rituals specific to demons.
The Art of Elemental Summoning is basically the same, except it deals with elementals.
The Art of Enchantment allows you to make minor magical items, such as talismans, lucky rocks, and the occasional small artifact.
The Art of Geomancy deals with dragon lines, demesnes, and manses. Can be useful for manse construction.
The Art of Husbandry includes rituals for blessing and warding crops, animals, and occasionally even human beings.
The Art of Spirit Beckoning focuses on prayer, requesting the blessings of various gods. Many rites are specific to individual deities; unfortunately, there aren't many printed. You can also summon gods, but they're not obliged to come - it's really more of an invitation.
The Art of Warding and Exorcism is self-explanatory. Other Arts include specialized wards for the type of creature they deal with, but this one allows you to ward against any category of creature you can name.
The Art of Weather Working is also pretty self-explanatory. You ask the elemental courts for a certain type of weather, and they may oblige you. Drastic or large-scale changes are harder.

Some of these aren't all that useful for your average Exalted hero. The Art of Husbandry, for instance, isn't likely to come into play unless you're playing a long-term nation-building game - but it's very easy to see how a small farming community would benefit immensely from having a wise man who can call deer for the hunt, ward crops against disease and pests, and bless newborn livestock.

Other rituals are useful even for an Exalt on the go. Wards can be pretty handy, and I'm fond of astrological divination.


4) Enhance your sorcery with artifacts and hearthstones. There are two specifically sorcerous artifacts.
There's also the Crucible of Tarim, which is ludicrously expensive (Artifact 5, plus a Resources 5 or Artifact 1 expenditure for every use) but fairly powerful if you have the infrastructure. It allows you to distill spells into potions, or possibly grenades depending on the spell, which can be kept and used at your leisure.

This is most useful with combat spells, since it lets you bypass their two major weaknesses (the high mote/Willpower costs, and the Shape Sorcery actions). You can walk around with a Total Annihilation spell in your pocket, ready to be used at a moment's notice... or half a dozen, if you like taking risks.

[Crumplepunch]

There's also the Crucible of Tarim, which is ludicrously expensive (Artifact 5, plus a Resources 5 or Artifact 1 expenditure for every use) but fairly powerful if you have the infrastructure. It allows you to distill spells into potions, or possibly grenades depending on the spell, which can be kept and used at your leisure.

This is most useful with combat spells, since it lets you bypass their two major weaknesses (the high mote/Willpower costs, and the Shape Sorcery actions). You can walk around with a Total Annihilation spell in your pocket, ready to be used at a moment's notice... or half a dozen, if you like taking risks.

Oh right, I forgot to mention that, because I never use it, and I always quirk an eyebrow when someone rolls a unique artifact at character creation. (He says, like a hypocrite). I also forgot to mention handy Sorcery hearthstones like the Key of Mastery.

Anyway while we're on the subject, a couple of handy tricks for enterprising sorcerers.

1) Buy several tons of scrap metal.
2) Summon Elemental (Mercury Ant).
3) Task bind the Mercury Ant to transmute your scrap metal into silver.
4) Reap that sweet, sweet Resources 5. During its year long binding, the ant will comfortably transmute R5 worth of silver working at a leisurely pace.
5) Bind several mercury ants at once. Open a front silver mine to cover your tracks.

Alternatively:

1) Be in the East.
2) Summon Elemental (Artisan)
3) Ask the elemental to guide you to the nearest Ironwood tree.
4) Use Summoning the Harvest and gather its acorns.
5) Plant them wherever you like. Use Summoning the Harvest to make them grow to full size.
6) Gather more acorns. Plant them elsewhere. Repeat.
7) Flood the Scavanger Lands with ironwood imports.

Also:

1) First circle demon (Anhule)
2) Task bind it to spin silk for you.
3) Infinite steel-strong silk.

And:

1) First circle demon (Harenhal)
2) Task bind them to make cool things. Supply them with bronze, blood and bile (buy bulk from a slaughterhouse) and maybe a Green Sun Lantern to make exotic metals.
3) Bind Neomah to entertain them so they don't limit break.
4) Enjoy your exotic components.

[TimeWizard]

And here I was, getting disheartened! Great job Playground. Now about the 5 trials- is that something I can just check off at character creation via backstory?

[TheCountAlucard]

And here I was, getting disheartened! Great job Playground. Now about the 5 trials- is that something I can just check off at character creation via backstory?Absolutely, as long as you can justify it there.

[horngeek]

Yes- keep in mind that the 5 trials have to be performed for each Sorcery initiation, not just Terrestrial Sorcery.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yes- keep in mind that the 5 trials have to be performed for each Sorcery initiation, not just Terrestrial Sorcery.Err, no, just the Station of Sacrifice.

[horngeek]

...source on that? I was fairly certain you needed to go through all of them...

[TheCountAlucard]

You only need to go through all five when initiating into Terrestrial Circle. After that, advancement only requires the Station of Sacrifice again for each subsequent circle.

[horngeek]

Yeah, I get what you're saying, I'm asking where you found the info.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yeah, I get what you're saying, I'm asking where you found the info.Don't have the book on me, so no exact page numbers to give, but somewhere between pages 10 and 20 of the White Treatise.

[horngeek]

Ah, right. Reading that section again, I think you're right- it only explicitly says the trials are to become a Sorcerer, then the Trial of Sacrifice must be repeated for the Sapphire and Adamant Circles.