Need help with PF tiers at level 10

[AsheItachi]

:smallamused: Me and my DM buddy are throwing down with a party of 5 that has a 32 point buy any class and race from books level 10 characters. We are going to buy items using the standard gold rate for them at that level too. Its a battle to the death in an open field type space.

:smallcool: That being said im trying to figure out what would be good classes i know they top out at different levels and i dont want to pick a **** tier class that will get K.O.d right out.

:smallbiggrin: I was thinking summoner, sorc, paladin, druid, barbarian.

[Waker]

Just to make sure I'm understanding this, but you are currently in a challenge against your DM to construct a group of 5 characters, each ECL 10, in PF. Is there any purpose to this challenge, because if it's some manner of argument over who can prepare better characters, you'll have people in here saying it's not fair.

[AsheItachi]

:smallwink:Its just for us to go against each other, instead of the whole monsters and what not.

:smallyuk:We did this with final fantasy tactics just put a group against each other battle to the death

[AsheItachi]

:smallcool:We did want to some up with a system to use monsters but we threw that out cause there are some highly op mobs in the CR list against each other.

:smalltongue:the same can be said about classes but i dont think the differences are as glaring as say a SKELETAL CHAMPION vs GIANT LEECH

[Waker]

All right then, well I'll make a suggestion for a party. This won't be a complete build, just rough ideas.

Rogue- Consider using the Knife Master archetype. Consider the Rogue Talents: Distracting Attack, Ki Pool, Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick), Opportunist. Go Two-Weapon Fighting with a pair of Keen Kukris. This will be a crit-fisher build. Sadly not enough BAB to grab some of the Critical feats.
Paladin- Get the Holy Tactician archetype. Grab the Teamwork feat Seize The Moment. Now whenever your Crit-fishing Rogue deals a crit, everyone in range gets an AoO against the enemy. Grab a few of the Lay on Hands feats to provide some healing during the fight, like Reward of Life.
Monk- Get the Flowing Monk archetype. Repositioning and Trip are both quite handy, and you can use both in one action, not to mention the chance of sickening your target. Your AoOs make enemies flat-footed, which combined with the above two characters, can be tons of fun.
Summoner- Get the Synthesist archetype. Make the biggest ugliest damage dealer you can. Consider dipping into Fighter or Barbarian for feats/talents. I suggest focusing on the use of a large or huge-sized greatsword and any boosts to strength that you can get.
Cleric- Consider the Evangelist archetype. You would have access to the cleric spell list, bardic music (Inspire Courage is the big one) and the Channeling to heal the party. Grab Selective Channeling,

[AsheItachi]

:smallsmile:I first thought rogue but decided against it since the BAB didnt let me explore to much in feats and battle. though mixed with the paladins teamwork feat which i didnt think of is a nice link. Does monk still shine at ten, or is this put in just to combine with the other two?

:mitd:I was under the impression that multiclassing with summoner is terrible idea for the class?

[AsheItachi]

:xykon: Also i have decided i am going to record this battle and post it if people are intrested

[Waker]

:smallsmile:I first thought rogue but decided against it since the BAB didnt let me explore to much in feats and battle. though mixed with the paladins teamwork feat which i didnt think of is a nice link. Does monk still shine at ten, or is this put in just to combine with the other two?

:mitd:I was under the impression that multiclassing with summoner is terrible idea for the class?

The Rogue is there for a fairly decent source of damage itself, but also provides a much greater chance for the rest of the party to pile on when it crits.
Monks are not amazing, but against a medium-sized foes they can do decently with maneuvers. Repositioning and Trip are there to prevent the enemy from getting into flanking position, keeping them on the ground to provide penalties to their attacks and just annoy them in general. Making them Sickened or Flat-footed is just icing on the cake. Don't forget that Monks use their Monk level in place of BAB when determining Maneuvers because of Maneuver Training.
Synthesist Summoners can multi-class just fine. However I was only suggesting a one or two level dip into a martial class to grab feats, BAB and other assorted goodies.

[AsheItachi]

:smallsmile: That sounds like a solid concept , now i just got to think or races..

[Gnaeus]

Disagree with synthesist summoner. This is a good example of why it isn't as OP as many people think.

A regular summoner is better here. Use your pet as a melee brute, while the summoner himself is trapping people behind walls of stone or dropping them into pits or buffing your characters with greater invisibility or otherwise using the power of a caster.

[Larkas]

Disagree with synthesist summoner. This is a good example of why it isn't as OP as many people think.

A regular summoner is better here. Use your pet as a melee brute, while the summoner himself is trapping people behind walls of stone or dropping them into pits or buffing your characters with greater invisibility or otherwise using the power of a caster.

This. Regular summoners make the action economy cry in a corner.

[AsheItachi]

Disagree with synthesist summoner. This is a good example of why it isn't as OP as many people think.

A regular summoner is better here. Use your pet as a melee brute, while the summoner himself is trapping people behind walls of stone or dropping them into pits or buffing your characters with greater invisibility or otherwise using the power of a caster.

:smallcool:Thats what i thought, at what level does the summoner start to undershine?

[Snowbluff]

Regular summoner's action economy is very frightening, indeed.


:smallcool:Thats what i thought, at what level does the summoner start to undershine?

Any level. There spell list is pretty good, and the eidolon starts really strong.

[grarrrg]

:smallcool:Thats what i thought, at what level does the summoner start to undershine?

Only at the highest levels does the Summoner start to drop in (relative) power.
The Eidolon may be a VERY effective Beatstick, but it is still a beatstick.
And while they have _some_ discounted spells on their list (i.e. getting 8ths in 6th level slots), they are fairly few, and mostly revolve around Summons and Buffs.
For your 10th level group, they are perfectly fine.

For max power go with Half-Elf for an extra +1/4 Evo point every level.
Combine with the Wild Caller archetype for another +1/4 Evo every level.
By level 10, that's 5 extra Evo points.

[doko239]

If you want a Rogue, go with a Ninja instead. 10th level Ninja can get Invisible Blade and hit himself up with Improved Invisibility for 10*(4+Cha) rounds/day. That's a lot of free sneak attack.

Synthesist is great for a pure beatstick, but if you want real power from a summoner then go for the Master Summoner archetype. Hard to lose when you get 20:1 action economy advantage.

[Waker]

I knew that the Synthesist Summoner isn't OP, I merely suggested it because it is simple and effective. The idea of using Master Summoner or Broodmaster is good though, since it would mesh well with the Seize the Moment crit-fishing idea I mentioned before.

[AsheItachi]

Currently making the rogue on mythweavers , well after i roll my game on roll20 , whats a good non el+ race i was going to do all humans but i dont want it so bland.

[Waker]

Rogue- Half-Orc gives you a bonus to confirm critical hits.
Paladin- Halfling gains a bonus to Charisma, heals more with Lay on Hands and the Low Blow trait helps with more criticals.
Monk- Human works fine here. You can also get bonus Ki to use more monk abilities.
Summoner- Half-Elf gives you bonus Evolution Points.
Cleric- Aasimar is decent since it gives a bonus to both Wisdom and Charisma.

[AsheItachi]

Rogue- Half-Orc gives you a bonus to confirm critical hits.
Paladin- Halfling gains a bonus to Charisma, heals more with Lay on Hands and the Low Blow trait helps with more criticals.
Monk- Human works fine here. You can also get bonus Ki to use more monk abilities.
Summoner- Half-Elf gives you bonus Evolution Points.
Cleric- Aasimar is decent since it gives a bonus to both Wisdom and Charisma.

:smallwink:Thanks for the help im going to use your build and see how it goes.
making level 10s takes work , so this battle might be a week or two off.

[Waker]

:smallwink:Thanks for the help im going to use your build and see how it goes.
making level 10s takes work , so this battle might be a week or two off.

Glad to help. I find some of these mental exercises to be fun, even if I never bother making the whole build.

[AsheItachi]

:smallconfused: Can a level 10 get sieze the moment? It says the pre req is BaB +8 and lvl 10 rogue has +7

[Waker]

:smallconfused: Can a level 10 get sieze the moment? It says the pre req is BaB +8 and lvl 10 rogue has +7

The Rogue can't, but the Holy Tactician Paladin can. The Paladin can grant everyone Seize the Moment with Battlefield Presence. Thus whenever anyone crits (the rogue is just the main source of crits), everyone gets an AoO.

[AsheItachi]

:smalltongue: Thanks that helps alot. I might dig you for more Q's later

[AsheItachi]

STR 14
DEX 20
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 10

:haley: Stats?

[JadePhoenix]

I would be sure to add a Half-elf Wild Caller and a Tiefling Oracle/Paladin to the party

[Snowbluff]

I would be sure to add a Half-elf Wild Caller and a Tiefling Oracle/Paladin to the party

Yeah, if you want a Healer, Tiefling gets my bet. Their self-healing is ridiculous.

Use the alternate tiefling stats, and maybe pick up Maw or Claw, and Wolfscarred for some extra attacks hat will synergize with smite. Fey Foundling would be good as well.

[JadePhoenix]

Yeah, if you want a Healer, Tiefling gets my bet. Their self-healing is ridiculous.

Use the alternate tiefling stats, and maybe pick up Maw or Claw, and Wolfscarred for some extra attacks hat will synergize with smite. Fey Foundling would be good as well.

Oradin is good for arenas, because Lifelink can get you an extra action and an extra action might kill someone else. Give the tiefling a bow and go to town.

[AsheItachi]

:smallcool:Ive rolled up My monk , and rogue.

:smallyuk:Making level 10s is harder than i thought , so much work is to be put in :)