Scordian Build:

[Os1ris09]

So after searching forever trying to find the famous Paladin/Sorcerer Gish build using Abjurant Champion I have now come to the playgrounds infinite wisdom in helping me acquire the site.

From what I remember the build only went to lvl 12 but the campaign I'm partaking in takes us from levels 1-30. The player using the build isn't very knowledgable in the complicated components of the game (epic casting, casting in general, abusing the rules with cheese, etc.) so I am trying to find a build that is simple yet elegant for them to be introduced to casting.

So i thought what better way than to teach them casting by casting defensive and offensive buffs on themselves to make them better.

So any advice or the site to which I'm referring to would be awesome.

Thanks again in advance for the help GITP. :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

Basic Sorcadin:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword (Prestige class, Complete Warrior) 1/Abjurant Champion 5. (Spellsword is not an absolutely required part of the build, but the entry requirements line up in such a way that it fits in exactly at the point where it is most needed- if you don't use it, you have to decide whether to lose another casting advancement for a full-BAB class or delay entry to Abjurant Champion by taking more Sorcerer.)

From there, you have enough BAB and spellcasting advancement to move into whatever prestige class you want. Eldritch Knight works fine, albeit rather boringly. Knight Phantom (Five Nations) is basically Eldritch Knight with class features, although it's a bit harder to get into and is from a pretty obscure book. I'm personally really fond of Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which is one of the very few gishing prestiges that are anywhere near worth giving up several casting levels.

[A_S]

I'd say the most standard completion of the sorcadin build is Sacred Exorcist 8, which gives full casting advancement and Turn Undead (for fueling divine feats) along with some other class features, and loses just enough BAB to keep you at 16.

[Os1ris09]

Original Build
I made a paladin gish a while back to showcase the wraithstrike spell. It's a 12th level character, but you may still find it interesting as it's basically the character you proposed in the OP.

If you or your DM don't have the stomach to handle the wraithstrike cheese, wings of cover (RacDrag, also cheesy) or heroics (SpComp) make decent substitutes. Other than that the character is made to be solid and fairly boring.

***

Holy Arcane Warrior
Core + Complete used

Human Paladin 4/Sorc 2 /Abjurant Champion (CMag) 5/Spellsword (CWar) 1 (lv12)

(Variant: Fighter4/Focused Specialist (CMag) 2... for a wizard based build. No divine grace from paladin and no Divine Might feat, but more feats and more skill points due to higher Int.)

25 pb
Code:
Levels Item Total
Str 14 +4 18 (+4)
Dex 12 +2 14 (+2)
Con 14 +2 16 (+3)
Int 8 8 (-1)
Wis 12 12 (+1)
Cha 13 +3 +2 18 (+4)
Feats (1,1,3,6,9,12): Power Attack, Combat Casting, Improved Toughness (CWar), Somatic Weaponry (CMag 47), Divine Might (CWar), Arcane Strike (CWar)

(Variant: Arcane Preparation [CArc] and Extend Spell for Extended wraithstrikes.)

Weasel Familiar

Spells known:
4th (4/day, 1 known): Heart of Earth (CMag)
3rd (6/day, 2 known): Haste, Heroism
2nd (7/day, 3 known): Wraithstrike (CAdv, SC), Alter Self, See Invisibility
1st (7/day, 5 known): Shield, Enlarge Person, Swift Expeditious Retreat (CAdv), Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement

Equipment (88000 max):
4000 Amulet of Health +2
11350 +1 keen adamantine falchion
6000 Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag)
4100 Armbands of Might (CAdv)
16000 Belt of Strength +4
4000 Cloak of Charisma +2
10100 +3 Mithral Chain Shirt
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
4000 Gloves of Dexterity +2
9000 Vest of Resistance +3 (CArc)
8000 Ring of Protection +2

6450 left

Combat: Will usually cast heart of stone, heroism and alter self before battle.
Casts haste and shield in first round (swift shield thanks to abjurant champion).

No holds barred option:

AB:
+11 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 heroism spell
+1 haste spell
+1 enhancement weapon
-11 Power Attack
+4 Arcane Strike 4th level spell.
= +12/+12/+7/+2

Damage:
2d4 weapon
+6 Str
+1 enhancement weapon
+22 Power Attack
+2 armbands of might
+4 Divine Might
(+4d4 Arcane Strike)
= 2d4+35+4d4, 15-20/2x

AC:
10 base
+2 Dex
+6 troglodyte
+7 armor
+9 shield spell
+1 haste
+1 ioun stone
+2 ring of protection
= AC 38

Saves (fort/ref/will):
4/1/1 paladin
0/0/3/ sorcerer
1/1/4 abjurant champion
2/0/2 spellsword
4/4/4 divine grace
2/2/2 heroism
3/3/3 vest of resistance
3/2/1 ability scores
0/2/0 familiar
---
Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +20

Average hit points: 10 + 3d10 (Pal) + 2d4 (Sorc) + 5d10 (AC) + d8 (SS) + 12*3 (Con) +12 (ImpTough)= 111 hit points (+22 temporary from heart of earth)

So that was the build I was referring to before. Any ideas for improvement / any ideas to expand it from lvls 13-30?

Thanks again for the help GITP. Also thank you to those who've already responded I appreciate the help.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As a suggestion:

Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy). It advances class abilities. So which class do you advance? Abjurant Champion, of course. You get the following:

Continued increase in casting. Note that you DO lose an extra 2 casting levels over 10 levels, so you might not hit 9th level spells by 20th level, but you get them soon enough.

Continued increase in the spell level of abjuration spells you can auto-quicken. By the time you hit level 10 in Legacy Champion, you will be auto-quickening up to 7th level Abjuration spells, which means Greater Dispel Magic among other things (like Dimensional Anchor).

It's a 3/4 BAB PrC, so you also get to hit a BAB of 16 by level 20, which is important because your iterative attacks freeze after that.

[Os1ris09]

Is that build even legal? I don't remember the requirements for Abjurant champion.

Even so does ANYBODY have any advice on taking this archetype into epic levels or changes that they recommend.

Like I stated earlier this campaign will go from lvls 1 - 30.

[Magnera]

For epic levels, get Abjurant Champion's BAB = CL and get your BaB to 18 for 9th level spells.

Paladin5/Sorcerer1/abjchamp5/Legacy Champion9/ Anyfull BaB class1
You will end level 20 with 9th level spells and 18 BAB. For epic levels keep in Legacy Champion to advance the abjchamp's abilities as you want. Auto quicken 9th level spells? Yeah!

Ask your DM to create a spell that acts like an Abjuration Mage Armor based off your caster level. 18+5+Legacy Champion level as Armor Bonus to Ac? Sign me up!

[tyckspoon]

For epic levels, get Abjurant Champion's BAB = CL and get your BaB to 18 for 9th level spells.

Paladin5/Sorcerer1/abjchamp5/Legacy Champion9/ Anyfull BaB class1


Caster level and spell advancement are not the same thing. Spell advancement comes only from levels in the casting class (Sorcerer) or "+1 Casting class" prestige classes (Abj. Champ, Legacy Champ applied to Abjurant.) This build would cast as a level 13 Sorcerer for purposes of Spells Known, Spells/day, and spell level access; the improved caster level only applies to things like level-dependent variables in range/duration/damage and caster level checks for spell penetration and dispelling.

[Keld Denar]

The build you posted is legal, but the order is not. It's generally Pal2/Sorc4/SPELLSWORD1/AbjChamp5. Pal2/Sorc4 only has a +4 BAB, AbjChamp requires a +5 BAB, which Spellsword grants.

Sacred Exorcist8+ is generally the finisher to 20. Past there, the game is so broken, it doesn't really matter, but the last 2 levels of Sorc casting at some point is probably a good idea. Initiate of the 7fold Veils has some rough reqs, but is pretty rockin.

[Magnera]

The build you posted is legal, but the order is not. It's generally Pal2/Sorc4/SPELLSWORD1/AbjChamp5. Pal2/Sorc4 only has a +4 BAB, AbjChamp requires a +5 BAB, which Spellsword grants.
I'm confused since my build doesn't break any order laws. Is there some unwritten rule that you can only build something in X order?

Paladin5/Sorc1 Will enable the use of divine feats that require Turn Undead, a mount, stronger Lay on Hands and more HP. I don't see how Sorc4 is better when you can regain the lost spell levels back from Abjurant Champions capstone, unless I am reading it wrong.

Spellsword1 doesn't seem all that great either. It has higher spell level prerequisites than Abjurant Champion and all the things you get from Spellsword1 can be replicated to a greater extent from Abjurant Champion. I can enter AbJurant Champion at the same level as your build enters Spellsword.

Also someone explain to me how AbjChamp's capstone works because I must be missing an errata of some kind. By what I have read upon the forums, your BAB becomes your Sorccerer level regarding the spells you can cast. Where am I wrong?

[Os1ris09]

I believe the playground is maximizing the sorcerer casting that I am trying to achieve. I dont have the pre-reqs in front of me so I can't confirm nor deny that your build satisfies them but they are trying to maximize the Sorcerer side as much as possible while still helping achieve the fluff of what Im trying to do.

I do agree that spellsword seems a waste as the only benefit I see is +1 BAB / +2 FORT & WILL/ +1 CL / and the ability to use any armor that has 10% or less ASF.

Any other suggestions as I do not believe our DM allows Legacy Champion OR Weapons of Legacy for that matter.

To try and narrow it down for the playground just assume that only core and Complete Series are Allowed with RARE acceptions from other books.

It would be awesome to put notes so that I can ask for DM approval but please provide a contingency just in case.

Thanks again for all the help and its great to see you again Keld Denar :smallbiggrin:

[Larkas]

Okay, the "standard" sorcadin build is Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. It nets you just enough sorcerer casting to get 9th level spells and +16 BAB (which means 4 attacks, something that you need to get before going epic or you won't get it any more).

It is very hard to deviate from that. Any further loss in sorcerer casting and you won't be able to cast 9th level spells, and any further loss in BAB and you won't have those precious four attacks. That is why that single Spellsword level is so invaluable, and why we must settle for Sacred Exorcist for the remaining levels, even if it only has 3/4 BAB. Other classes with full BAB that also advance casting lose some caster levels, AFAIK all on the first level. Hence, you can't use Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom in place of either of the other classes without losing access to 9th level spells.

That said, you're playing until epic levels. The only thing that you MUST attain before 20th level is 16+ BAB. Feel free to use those other classes and complement the sorcerer casting level at 21+, if you so prefer.

[Essence_of_War]

I do agree that spellsword seems a waste as the only benefit I see is +1 BAB / +2 FORT & WILL/ +1 CL / and the ability to use any armor that has 10% or less ASF.


We're not just tossing in Spellsword because we like it! The reason to take it is exactly the features that you listed!

Spellsword pre-reqs:


Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.
Special: Must have defeated a foe through force of arms alone, without recourse to spellcasting.
Feats: Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light).


AbjChamp pre-reqs:


Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Combat Casting
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell.
Special: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.


Spellsword requires 1 less point of BAB than AbjChamp, but provides both a +1 BAB and a +1 CL. Sure, you could get into abjurant champion by taking another level of paladin (or any full BAB class) and miss out on the spell-casting, or two more levels of sorcerer, and lose BAB in the long-run, but why do that when there is a thematically appropriate prestige class that provides BOTH and gives you a relevant class feature (10% ASF reduction).

Once you do Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacExor8 you're into Epic levels. BAB is no longer relevant, so pick your favorite full casting progression PrC and go from there.

With 10 levels to play with, I would try to max out Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils, but beware that it has very rough pre-reqs, (3 'meh' feats and 5 spell slots dedicated to abjuration!), then Mindbender for 1, and maybe finishing off Sacred Exorcist to get you to 30.

You could also try maxing out Mage of the Arcane Order. You need Arcane Preparation from PGtF for this, so it's a no-go if you only have Core + Completes, but I think it's a really cool PrC.

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Prep was reprinted in Complete Arcane, the same book as MotAO.

And Magnera, the thing you are missing out has already been pointed out up-thread. Abjurant Champion's capstone ability only affects your CASTER LEVEL, not your actual spellcasting ability. Just like an Orange Ioun Stone doen't give you a whole level of spellcasting, Caster Level only really affects things like Duration, Range, Magnitude (in the sense of CLd6 damage), penetrating SR and resisting Dispel Magic. CL is not the same as having a higher spellcaster level. Spellcasting levels do grant CLs though (along with more spells/day, spells known, etc).

So no, simply having 19/20 BAB and 5 levels of AbjChamp does not mean you can cast as a Sorcerer19. Your casting ability is dependent on how many levels of Sorcerer and +1 Spellcasting classes you have. When you CAST those spell, the CL used when determining Duration or Range, however, is EITHER your actual CL (granted by your levels in spellcasting classes) or your BAB, whichever is higher.

[The Random NPC]

Another benefit of Spellsword is that it gets all Knowledge as class skills. That'll help with qualifying for Sacred Exorcist.