cleric question for 3.5

[Somensjev]

ok, me and some friends have started a new campaign, there are five of them
not that that's really important

but the question i want to ask is, what domains does a cleric get if he worships himself?

because the person playing the cleric doesnt really like the gods much, and he asked to worship himself, and i said he could

(i also have a ranger that worships themself, but that's not important)

[eggynack]

I don't think there are any actual particular rules for worshiping the ideal of yourself. Just keep the domains linked by flavor. Pride definitely needs to be there, no matter what. Glory is a possibility too. I think that what you really have to ask is the nature of the character. A lawful good cleric and a chaotic evil cleric would probably have a very different domain list if they worshiped themselves. The same goes for other, less obvious, character traits.

[Ashtagon]

For game mechanics, this is like worshipping a philosophy or ideal. Your favoured weapon is determined by alignment (see the spiritual weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) spell), and you pick any two domains that are allowed by your alignment.

[Curmudgeon]

For game mechanics, this is like worshipping a philosophy or ideal. Your favoured weapon is determined by alignment (see the spiritual weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) spell), and you pick any two domains that are allowed by your alignment.
I don't see any basis in the rules for generalizing from the specifics of that one spell. The War domain doesn't grant any weapon proficiencies unless you worship a god with that domain in their portfolio. Similarly, Weapon of the Deity doesn't do anything unless you have a divine patron. And the Visage of the Deity spells also require that you worship a specific being to give any benefit.

Picking your own ideal is great for flexibility in creating a Cleric character. However, you don't get all that flexibility and access to deity-only capabilities. You have to choose.

[Vertharrad]

I would also say you can't take the race domains unless your that race.

[Devils_Advocate]

what domains does a cleric get if he worships himself?
Well, there is no specific official answer to this question, if that's what you're wondering. But generally speaking, a source of divine power grants domains appropriate to that source. A god grants domains appropriate to that god, a cause grants domains appropriate to that cause, etc.

So a cleric who somehow grants himself domains grants himself domains appropriate to himself! Which domains are appropriate to this cleric, you ask? Well, what is he like? A strong warrior who fights to protect what's important to him might grant himself the Strength and Protection domains, while a duplicitous vagabond might grant himself the Trickery and Travel domains.

If you're having trouble coming up with something, the Healing domain is appropriate to positive energy channeling clerics in general, and each alignment domain is appropriate to characters of that alignment (and specifically only to characters of that alignment). The Pride domain, indeed, seems appropriate to anyone who worships himself.

Chaos seems fitting for a character who avoids joining a religion. Liberation would probably also work.


For game mechanics, this is like worshipping a philosophy or ideal. Your favoured weapon is determined by alignment
No, a cleric of any alignment can favor any weapon. Most clerics favor the mace or morningstar.

[Duke of Urrel]

I can imagine several different kinds of clerics whose religion would consist of selfishness. None would be Good, because selfishness is incompatible with altruism. However, a cleric could be rationally self-interested like a Greek sage, or emotionally self-interested like a nihilist hipster. She could have a purely Neutral attitude similar to Boccob's or Obad-Hai's: an obsession with mental or physical perfection. She could be a Lawful-Neutral, market-oriented deal-maker like the Greyhawk god Zilchus, or a Chaotic-Neutral trickster like Olidammara, in either case interested only in getting ahead, but not necessarily cruel or hateful toward others. These are three morally Neutral possibilities, and I would look at the domains of one of these gods if my cleric of selfishness shared similar concerns.

All the other possibilities I can think of would tend toward Evil. As selfishness gets stronger and concern for others gets weaker, Evil is the end result.

A cleric who worships a kind of selfhood is an individualist, and I would expect every cleric of this kind to differ from every other. I wouldn't expect any two clerics of selfishness to get along with each other, as two clerics of the same deity usually do. They wouldn't necessarily have anything in common, and they might be too obsessively competitive to play well on the same team. A cleric of selfhood has to be comfortable with being a loner and an outsider.

[Devils_Advocate]

He didn't say anything about a cleric of selfishness, though. Being a cleric of oneself isn't the same thing as being a cleric of selfishness. One can worship oneself and still care about the welfare of others. You know, like how one can worship a god and still care about the welfare of those who aren't one's god?

If worshiping someone required disregarding everyone else's welfare, then no cleric of anyone could be Good-aligned.

[Sylthia]

I'd have to know more about this particular cleric's personality to offer concrete suggestions. When I played a cleric who worshiped himself, I think my domains were Chaos and Fire, but that fit his personality. He liked burnt offerings (to himself) and such a non-traditional religion leans more toward chaos than law.

[sonofzeal]

You still need a philosophy for the character. If you have one, choose your own Domains as appropriate for that philosophy. If you don't have one.... uh, don't play a Cleric. :smalleek:

[Duke of Urrel]

He didn't say anything about a cleric of selfishness, though. Being a cleric of oneself isn't the same thing as being a cleric of selfishness. One can worship oneself and still care about the welfare of others. You know, like how one can worship a god and still care about the welfare of those who aren't one's god? If worshiping someone required disregarding everyone else's welfare, then no cleric of anyone could be Good-aligned.

The reason you can worship a god and still care about the welfare of others who aren't your god is because this is what that god requires you to do. All Good gods require you to care about others; I think this adequately explains how the worship of a god may be compatible with concern for beings other than that god. Morally Neutral gods also require you to care about others, but somewhat conditionally or to a more limited extent. Even Evil gods may require you to take some interest in others, though the appropriate aim is always to make them suffer (negative altruism).

In contrast, it is by no means clear why one who worships oneself should care about anybody else – or why this attitude should qualify as anything other than "selfish" in the fullest sense of the word – unless one's concept of selfishness is very circumspect and philosophical, like the rationally self-interested "Greek sage" I mentioned above, who would argue that in order to prosper individually, one must as a practical matter treat others as if they were important, too.

I have to say that there's something very loop-holish about a cleric who wants to worship his or her self. To the DM in me, that smells like somebody who's hoping to be spared the bother of gods, ethics, and the risk of transgression – you know, all the stuff that normal clerics worry about and should worry about. And the DM in me feels strongly motivated to dash that particular hope to pieces. If you're not serious about yourself in some principled and philosophical way, so that the risk of transgression against your own commandments is very real possibility rather than an unthinkable absurdity, you can't properly be a worshiper of yourself.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, allow it but don't grant the player any spells. And turn undead? Forget about it. Essentially, you end up with a warrior type.

[RogueDM]

Yeah, allow it but don't grant the player any spells. And turn undead? Forget about it. Essentially, you end up with a warrior type.

Wouldn't that also apply to a cleric of an ideal, which is specifically allowed in the PHB if my memory serves?

As for being self-centered and worshiping yourself: It does strike of narcissism at you are essentially declaring yourself the ideal. However, you may believe you are the paragon of selfless behavior and therefor believe that all others should aspire to be as giving and selfless as yourself. This does not preclude you from selfless activity, but rather encourages it. In other words, excessively loving yourself doesn't prevent you from loving other people, it just makes you Self-Important. You may place your own value above that of others when push comes to shove, or you may believe that you are so righteous and selfless that upon your death you may ascend to true godhood. It all depends on the way the player wants to play it out.

As for domains, have the player pick two that he believes his character would consider him (or her) self the embodiment of. Ew, ended a sentence with a preposition. ...of which he considers himself the embodiment....

[Gwendol]

No, since there is a distinct difference in worshiping an ideal, and worshiping oneself.

[BWR]

Ew, ended a sentence with a preposition. ...of which he considers himself the embodiment....

Ah, this old misconception (http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/grammar-myths-prepositions/). Like multiple negatives.
If Chaucer could use triple negatives, double negatives are more than good enough for me.

[Devils_Advocate]

The reason you can worship a god and still care about the welfare of others who aren't your god is because this is what that god requires you to do.
What prevents a worshiper of a god who neither requires nor forbids altruism from being altruistic?

Furthermore, if you help others simply because your master commands it, that's not valuing them as ends in themselves any more than if you helped them for your own personal gain, now is it?


All Good gods require you to care about others; I think this adequately explains how the worship of a god may be compatible with concern for beings other than that god.
If worshiping someone somehow prevents you from caring about others... then worshiping someone prevents you from caring about others, and worshipers of Good gods are unable to fulfill this requirement. If, on the other hand, worshiping someone doesn't prevent you from caring about others -- and I see no reason why it would -- then worshiping yourself doesn't prevent you from caring about others.


In contrast, it is by no means clear why one who worships oneself should care about anybody else – or why this attitude should qualify as anything other than "selfish" in the fullest sense of the word
It is by no means clear to me why one who worships oneself should not care about anybody else - or why this attitude should qualify as "selfish" in any sense of the word.


I have to say that there's something very loop-holish about a cleric who wants to worship his or her self. To the DM in me, that smells like somebody who's hoping to be spared the bother of gods, ethics, and the risk of transgression – you know, all the stuff that normal clerics worry about and should worry about. And the DM in me feels strongly motivated to dash that particular hope to pieces. If you're not serious about yourself in some principled and philosophical way, so that the risk of transgression against your own commandments is very real possibility rather than an unthinkable absurdity, you can't properly be a worshiper of yourself.
Well, that's essentially saying that a godless cleric just worshiping himself isn't enough; he has to have serve some cause or ideal. Which is quite reasonable and also what the Player's Handbook says.

[Keld Denar]

You can't grant yourself spells. Other beings, however, can grant spells without your understanding or consent. Have his spells be granted by one of the trickier archfiends. Pazreal would be a good fit. As he grows in power, maybe have servants of that archfiend do odd things, like hesitate to attack him or say cryptic things to him. If he dies, RP his soul standing before the archfiend in a great reveal.

I think it would be neat. Mechanically, just run it like normal. From the DM side of the curtain, you have a subtle but interesting RP hook. Don't use it too much, but just enough that maybe he kinda catches on.

[Reddish Mage]

I have to say that there's something very loop-holish about a cleric who wants to worship his or her self. To the DM in me, that smells like somebody who's hoping to be spared the bother of gods, ethics, and the risk of transgression – you know, all the stuff that normal clerics worry about and should worry about. And the DM in me feels strongly motivated to dash that particular hope to pieces. If you're not serious about yourself in some principled and philosophical way, so that the risk of transgression against your own commandments is very real possibility rather than an unthinkable absurdity, you can't properly be a worshiper of yourself.



Well, that's essentially saying that a godless cleric just worshiping himself isn't enough; he has to have serve some cause or ideal. Which is quite reasonable and also what the Player's Handbook says.

CS has already granted that the player can worship himself, so with that given, we are coming up with ways that can work.

Does that mean the cleric must have some ideal of himself he's worshipping? Perhaps not.

Could, alternatively the cleric could be dedicated to the cause of selfishness with a copy of Atlas Shrugged as his bible? Why not? (I had a Paladin of Freedom who did that once, the results were priceless.)

Might the path be chosen because of a lack of seriousness about roleplaying in general and religion, philosophy, and spirituality in specific? Maybe. How much of a problem is this? It depends on the group and what they want out of their D&D game.

[Curmudgeon]

CS has already granted that the player can worship himself, so with that given, we are coming up with ways that can work.
There's no game problem with the Cleric character worshiping an idealized self-image, but I'd steer clear of games in which a player has such an ego trip. :smallwink:

Anyway, that's not really the issue. As Keld Denar has already pointed out, an ordinary Cleric cannot grant himself spells; you need a minimum divine rank of 1 for that capability. So, regardless of the Cleric's beliefs, some higher power is necessarily the source of all his spells.

[Vertharrad]

The PHB allows a cleric to get his spells and abilities without needing a "higher power". So no there doesn't have to be any entity giving him his abilities...just like a deity with cleric/drui/ranger/paladin levels can cast spells off those lists without needing a "higher power".

[Curmudgeon]

The PHB allows a cleric to get his spells and abilities without needing a "higher power". So no there doesn't have to be any entity giving him his abilities....
I think you'll find that's incorrect. Just because the Cleric doesn't worship a higher power doesn't keep some source of divine power from being necessary for the Cleric to receive their spells.
Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship.

[Vertharrad]

They are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship.

Which would include a "higher power", they can however decide to follow an ideal or cause.

PHB pg.30 - Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or to a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church heirarchy.

PHB pg.32 - Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration.

If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Nowhere in there does it say you must get your power from a "higher power".

[swankjon]

If I were a DM, I would rule in any situation that the player is worshiping an ideal that he is getting his spells from the god that most align's himself with the players chosen ideal.

The cleric may not acknowledge it or might even not like the idea, but he can't just give himself spells, and this makes more sense.

[Vertharrad]

swankjon if your going to do that you might as well just say that in your world clerics/favored souls/archivists/druids/rangers/paladins/etc. have to pick a god. That way your not trying to undermine your own player, for when they tell you their going to take 2 domains and 1 or both of them don't conform to the domains this god you picked provides.