Screw you, just die! (Heavy save debuffs?)

[Deathcharge01]

I came across a feat called Battlemage Tactics while looking for a feat to stick on my wizard. Now this feat reads;
Each time you cast a spell that requires a target to make a saving throw, that target gains a battle magic tactics token after the spell resolves. A creature gains a token whether the creature succeeds or fails, but a creature that avoids a spell through spell resistance does not gain a token. Each battle magic token imposes a cumulative -1 Penalty on saving throws against the spells of spellcasters who have this feat. At the end of the round all battle magic tactics tokens disappear.Now according to this feat, the target suffers a -1 on saves every time its forced to make a save from a spell. It sounds nice, but not really worth a feat until you consider spells that force multiple saving throws like Hailstones (up to 4 reflex saves) or Darkbolt (up to 7 will saves). Alone these two would stack -4 and -7 to saves respectively, and we haven't even began to twin spell yet, granted you have to make ranged touch attacks.
What I like about this feat is that its stand alone and only really requires a smart spell selection to be very effective. What do you guys think?

[Thurbane]

It's an interesting feat.

Great Thunderclap forces 3 saves (Will, Reflex and Fortitude).

[Fouredged Sword]

I think is would work great as a spellcaster feat in a group of spellcasting characters.

It looks like it is intended to be a teamwork like feat for spellslingers.

Lead with a flurry of mass save spells from a sorcerer and follow up with a SOD from the wizard.

[Malimar]

Now according to this feat, the target suffers a -1 on saves every time its forced to make a save from a spell.

No it doesn't.


Each time you cast a spell that requires a target to make a saving throw, that target gains a battle magic tactics token after the spell resolves.

(Emphasis mine.) The target suffers a -1 on saves every time you cast a spell that forces it to make one (or more) saves. Not once per save.



That said, the feat doesn't limit you to only one target. Instead of spells that force multiple saves, go instead for spells that target more than one creature. AoE spells probably won't work (I'm not certain whether a creature counts as a "target" of a spell if it's merely within the area of an AoE spell, e.g. fireball), but "Target: x creatures" spells (e.g. slow) definitely should.

[nedz]

Moderately useful with the Shadow magic line since these usually give two saves anyway, but the effect is quite marginal.

Twin spell would be a useful metamagic to stack with this provided that the original spell forced multiple saves.

[Deathcharge01]

It's an interesting feat.

Great Thunderclap forces 3 saves (Will, Reflex and Fortitude).

I'm currently playing in a campaign and we're approaching epic levels. I'm playing a Focused Specialist Wiz (abjuration)/Master specialist/Io7fv/Abjurant champion, a pretty defensive build. With this one feat it is possible to boost my save DCs by very significant amounts fairly easy, thus adding some raw offensive power to the build. So yes, it is very interesting.

Another application I've been thinking of is centering a build on this feat using a spontaneous caster with Arcane Spellsurge. using it this way is probably alot more practical and more effective.

[Person_Man]

Duskblade 13 could force a number of Saves equal to the number of attack you make. Same deal with Sacred Fist (and Arcane Fist, IIRC?)

[Talya]

Just make sure your bard takes Doomspeak, and never worry about saving throws again.

[The Boz]

Effects with a duration of 1 round are no longer active in your next round. This feat is beyond useless unless you're in a party of five+ sorcerers that are all using this feat... and even then, how many creatures can survive/are combat-effective after five+ spells?

[MrNobody]

I have to agree with Malimar. The spell says "Each time you cast a spell that requires a target to make a saving throw" and not "Each time a target of a spell that you cast is required to make a saving throw".

I think it's a matter of number of spells, not of saving throws thet require.

[Talya]

Effects with a duration of 1 round are no longer active in your next round. This feat is beyond useless unless you're in a party of five+ sorcerers that are all using this feat... and even then, how many creatures can survive/are combat-effective after five+ spells?

Beyond useless?

(1) Through its entire round, the target is -10 to attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks (in addition to saves)
(2) You only need a single other spellcaster in your party to make it worthwhile.
(3) the save for Doomspeak itself is much higher than it should be. Most effects with a DC based on level are 10 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier. The DC on doomspeak is 10 + character level + charisma. It doesn't require SR checks, and there are no immunities that can prevent it. It's going to work most of the time for a bard. One party bard makes your target useless at melee and cannon-fodder for any other party spellcaster.
(4) grab Subvocalize (Seeker of the Song) or any other method of starting bardic music as a swift action, and then Swift Doomspeak.

[Deathcharge01]

No it doesn't.



(Emphasis mine.) The target suffers a -1 on saves every time you cast a spell that forces it to make one (or more) saves. Not once per save.



That said, the feat doesn't limit you to only one target. Instead of spells that force multiple saves, go instead for spells that target more than one creature. AoE spells probably won't work (I'm not certain whether a creature counts as a "target" of a spell if it's merely within the area of an AoE spell, e.g. fireball), but "Target: x creatures" spells (e.g. slow) definitely should.

Ah yes, I believe this is right. Its once per spell, not once per save :smallfrown:. Oh well, its back to looking for a useful feat as it would really be useless.

[The Boz]

Beyond useless?

(1) Through its entire round, the target is -10 to attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks (in addition to saves)
(2) You only need a single other spellcaster in your party to make it worthwhile.
(3) the save for Doomspeak itself is much higher than it should be. Most effects with a DC based on level are 10 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier. The DC on doomspeak is 10 + character level + charisma. It doesn't require SR checks, and there are no immunities that can prevent it. It's going to work most of the time for a bard. One party bard makes your target useless at melee and cannon-fodder for any other party spellcaster.
I obviously wasn't talking about Doomspeak. Doomspeak is retardedly powerful.

[Shining Wrath]

I came across a feat called Battlemage Tactics while looking for a feat to stick on my wizard. Now this feat reads;
Each time you cast a spell that requires a target to make a saving throw, that target gains a battle magic tactics token after the spell resolves. A creature gains a token whether the creature succeeds or fails, but a creature that avoids a spell through spell resistance does not gain a token. Each battle magic token imposes a cumulative -1 Penalty on saving throws against the spells of spellcasters who have this feat. At the end of the round all battle magic tactics tokens disappear.Now according to this feat, the target suffers a -1 on saves every time its forced to make a save from a spell. It sounds nice, but not really worth a feat until you consider spells that force multiple saving throws like Hailstones (up to 4 reflex saves) or Darkbolt (up to 7 will saves). Alone these two would stack -4 and -7 to saves respectively, and we haven't even began to twin spell yet, granted you have to make ranged touch attacks.
What I like about this feat is that its stand alone and only really requires a smart spell selection to be very effective. What do you guys think?

I don't think it's very effective. The tokens disappear at the end of the round. You get one token per spell cast, not per SR required. This does give the benefit that a spell requiring multiple saves (see other comments) will have all saves after the first made at -1.

If you have multiple casters in the party it can give you a slight advantage if the caster with Battlemage Tactics goes first and all casters are targeting multiple targets. A -1 or -2 to SR across 5 targets for a spell may make the difference for one of them making their save or not.

[Malimar]

This does give the benefit that a spell requiring multiple saves (see other comments) will have all saves after the first made at -1.

Not even that, alas!


Each time you cast a spell that requires a target to make a saving throw, that target gains a battle magic tactics token after the spell resolves.

[nedz]

Hmmm, it does pay to read the actual feat sometimes, well pretty much always really. For instance it also says

Each battle magic token imposes a cumulative -1 Penalty on saving throws against the spells of spellcasters who have this feat.
So either you have to be using Quicken etc., or every caster in the party needs to take this feat.

[Snails]

In a typical party, the feat is useless.

In a party with cohorts or minions, I can easily see it being very potent at higher levels. A cohort who opens up with a quickened AoE and then an AoE, it is not a bad opening move, to prepare the ground for the real big guns.

For the the bad guys, it is quite easy to imagine how a few "useless" middling low level casters could be on hand to soften the heroes before the big spellcaster unloads.

[Tvtyrant]

The nice part is that it works whether the enemy succeeds on the save or not. So as long as your pile of level 1 adepts can get past the enemies spell resistance they lower the enemies save. A tricked out leadership character can auto-gank using a SoD and this.

Not as effective as simply raising your CL, but still fun.