DM need advice, imbalanced dmg in gestalt party

[Teriki]

I'm DMing a gestalt good aligned campain for 3 players.
They are currently level 5.
The party contains the following heros:
Monk/Warlock
Cleric/Figther
Cleric/Ranger

The mnk/wlc does insane dmg with his fist/eldritch blast combo.
While the two others have really low dmg.

I figure they need some better items, but even so it feels quite wrong.
Does anyone have any suggestions or advice for me? :)

[eggynack]

First of all, what is a "fist/eldritch blast combo" exactly? I'm not particularly familiar with any maneuver that involves both things. Second, and likely much more importantly, clerics have the potential to be more powerful than monks, warlocks, and even monk//warlocks. Damage isn't really the biggest factor for power, when you can take actions that can bypass the need for damage entirely. Either way, the main idea here is that you don't need to hand them powerful items in order to be powerful. Just look through the cleric handbook, and you should have some good ideas for how to make them more powerful with nothing more than good spell selection.

Edit: Huh. That handbook is surprisingly unhelpful when it comes to details about good spells. I'm used to things like the wizard and druid handbooks, where there's at least a snippet of good information, and often far more. Either there's a better source, or there should be one.

[Teriki]

Thanks for you're reply :)
I will read more into the different cleric books but they seem to have very limited power at the lower lvls.

What I meant with fist/blast was that he could upon a sucesful melee attack channel eldritch blast trough his weapon/fist dealing the xD6 dmg in addition to his normal 1d8 fist.

[Jack_Simth]

... yeah, the Clerics just need a little spell help. Bestow Curse & Blindness (Cleric-3) are pretty solid save or suck spells at their level, and Hold Person (Cleric-2) isn't the worst spell in the game.

[Aracor]

Thanks for you're reply :)
I will read more into the different cleric books but they seem to have very limited power at the lower lvls.

What I meant with fist/blast was that he could upon a sucesful melee attack channel eldritch blast trough his weapon/fist dealing the xD6 dmg in addition to his normal 1d8 fist.

Well, there's your problem: Eldritch Blast is a standard action, so the monk/warlock shouldn't be able to use it in combination with flurry (which is a full-round action) or even an unarmed strike (which is also a standard action).

[eggynack]

Yeah, I don't see any indication that eldritch blast is something that can be channeled through a flurry of blows. I just checked the only thing that I thought could do it, eldritch claws, and it specifically says that you can't combine it with flurry of blows. I'm inclined to think that the rules are being bent, unless there's some kinda ability that can pull it off that I'm unaware of. There probably isn't though.

[Teriki]

Well hes not combining it with flurry, but as I understod it he could channel it into his normal unarmed/fists attack?

I'm quite sure rules are being bent and on the other chars that the chars ain't using its full potential, but I don't know what the correct way would be?

[eggynack]

I don't think that's a thing he can do, but even if he can that's not really any kind of damage. It's just an extra d8 on top of the d6's, which puts him pretty far behind the damage potential of a cleric//fighter or cleric//ranger. It's not much of a damaging combo at all really, so I'm not sure what's causing the problem. He's basically giving up the warlock's whole shtick, which is standing far away and shooting infinitely, for 4.5 average damage a turn. It's not a good trade, the way I see it.

[Dairuga]

Firstly, A Warlock has Three options to use his eldritch blast in conjunction with melee attacks: Eldritch Glaive, Hideous blow and Eldritch claws..

Now, given the amount of information given, it becomes nearly apparent that he is talking about Hideous Blow or Eldritch claws; one being a least invocation that lets him channel his Eldritch blast trough his weapon, making an attack; unarmed or otherwise, dealing both the damage of his fist, and his eldritch blast, the other granting him two claws as natural attacks.

The Hideous blow, however, is not going to work by default, as the text on Hideous blow states that activating Hideous blow is a standard action, much like casting any spell or using the Eldritch blast by itself, meaning that one can not perform several attacks per round through this effect. If he -is- using hideous blows, the rules are being bent to allow this, as only one Hideous blow can be performed per turn.

Now with Eldritch Glaive, however, he uses his Eldritch blast to form it into a glaive-esque weapon. While it is not a weapon, and does not gain the benefit of feats that affect glaives, it -does- give the Warlock a 10 foot eldritch blast attack, which he can full attack with; each attack dealing the Eldritch blast damage. This, however, would not apply the damage of his fists as well.

Eldritch -claws- on the other hand, have already been mentioned up above. It grants two claw attacks, you can full attack with them, and they benefit from specific effects that grants more attacks per round. They do -not- however, I believe, as natural attacks, gain any bonuses from iterative attacks trough high BAB.

EDIT: I missed the eldritch claws entirely. Seems like a viable option, even if they might not be the one being used.

[Teriki]

Well what is the expected dmg output for a fighter//cleric lvl 5?
And whats the main way they get go about dealing with combat?

I can't tell them how to play their chars, but since theres clearly something wrong here I'd like to know what the cause is.

The fighter's strategy last session was to charge inn, and try to cleave as many as he could, which usualy meant dealing little dmg to the first he hit but not getting close to killing it.

[Larkas]

You say he isn't flurrying, so he isn't bending the rules (ehm, more like disregarding, but I digress) as bad as he could be. Still, it might be a good idea to make him spend a feat to use the combo (like Eldritch Claws, but channeling through unarmed strike instead).

Regardless, keep in mind that "insane amounts of dice rolling" doesn't equate to "insane amounts of damage. I'd rather do 1d8+5 (average 9.5; something the clerics can easily pull off) than 1d8+1d6 (average 8). And we're only talking about base damage here. Considering long swords, the first damage becomes 2d8+10 on a critical (done on 19-20!), whereas the second, Eldritch Unarmed Strike becomes simply 2d8+1d6 (i.e.: the blast isn't multiplied; the critical is on a 20). And we're not even considering two handed fighting and more favorable return from Power Attack and charge.

Bottom line: let the monklock have his fun! :smallsmile:

[Teriki]

Now, given the amount of information given, it becomes nearly apparent that he is talking about Hideous Blow; a least invocation that lets him channel his Eldritch blast trough his weapon, making an attack; unarmed or otherwise, dealing both the damage of his fist, and his eldritch blast.

This, however, is not going to work by default, as the text on Hideous blow states that activating Hideous blow is a standard action, much like casting any spell or using the Eldritch blast by itself, meaning that one can not perform several attacks per round through this effect. If he -is- using hideous blows, the rules are being bent to allow this, as only one Hideous blow can be performed per turn.


Edited:
Yeah it's this one hes using.
Thanks for a great and informative post!
:D

He is only using this 1/round.
But I guess the problem is more with the two other chars being played wrong or inn need of better loot or just better understanding og their abilities?

[Teriki]

Larkas:
I'm all for letting have his fun,
I just want the two others too have fun as well :)
The last session they both seemed to have somewhat fun but the combat sequences made them more frustrated by their low contribution inn dealing with the monsters compared to the mnk/wlc

[Larkas]

He is only using this 1/round.
But I guess the problem is more with the two other chars being played wrong or inn need of better loot or just better understanding og their abilities?

They don't need better loot. They just need to have a better understanding of what they can do. They apparently aren't even playing their full BAB side to their fullest, let alone using the cleric perks.

A spell that, while not optimal, can enhance their damage potential: link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm).

[Krazzman]

Well what is the expected dmg output for a fighter//cleric lvl 5?
And whats the main way they get go about dealing with combat?

I can't tell them how to play their chars, but since theres clearly something wrong here I'd like to know what the cause is.

The fighter's strategy last session was to charge inn, and try to cleave as many as he could, which usualy meant dealing little dmg to the first he hit but not getting close to killing it.

Dmg output?

For a Fighter something along the lines of 2d6+16 (6 from 18 strenght and 10 from powerattacking for 5). Not counting in magic enchantments.

And I am on shaky grounds with this but wouldn't a Unarmed Strike Hideous Blow crit deal 2d8+str-mod+6d6(eldritch Blast) on a 20?

[eggynack]

Well, at the base level, the fighter aldoing more damage. A warlock at leveleldritch blast. Your guy is dealing about, but he really shouldn't be. Anyway, a fighter, with, wielding a great sword deals6+, which comes out to 13. That puts him right in the middle of the warlock's regular damage, and his weird punch blast damage. That's before taking buffs, or feats, or anything into account. If your fighter has cleave then he has power attack, and if he has power attack he's not doing nearly as badly as he could be doing. If he sacrifices a single point of to hit, then he does damage equal to that of the warlock, and that's if he's cheating. Are you counting his punches as a touch attack? You shouldn't, because it's not a blast anymore, and if you don't, then the fighter can drop hit and still equal the warlock//monk's to hit and be dealing . The fighter//cleric likely also has better AC if he's wearing full plate, and he can use a magic weapon which puts him even farther ahead.

There's still spells to take into account, but any gain past that point is just pushing it. He's already dealing more damage than the warlock. Cleric spells are also just better than warlock//monks, but in ways that tend not to have as much to do with damage. There are some ways to push that aspect though. Casting some good buffs before entering combat can be a good use of resources, especially if you expect combat to run long. However, the point is that the fighter//cleric should be ahead on damage, and he is also strong along several axes that the fighter doesn't even exist on.

Edit: There's new information to consider, but I'm inclined to believe that it's not that important. Hideous blow is, as the common reasoning goes, hideous. If you don't want to interfere with their builds, that's fine. You shouldn't reward apathy about character strength with free loot though. It's really not so hard to get up to warlock//monk levels that you need to do their work for them.

Double edit: Wait, no, my numbers seem accurate. They assumed that it'd merely be the punch plus the blast, and that it'd be a melee attack. Seriously, hideous blow is hideous. You're trading away so damn much for so damn little.

[nedz]

If he is using Hideous Blow then there are some things to be taken into account.
Hideous Blow is a shape for the Eldritch Blast invocation which requires a Standard action to use so it cannot be used with flurry. It also requires a concentration check to use defensively or it will provoke an AoO. It also requires a roll to hit against AC, rather then touch AC (for a normal Eldritch Blast), though you do get to add the weapon damage.

[graymachine]

Monk//Warlock... That is.....weird.

Warlocks, at least, typical don't focus on their Eldritch Blast too much, instead favoring UMD goodness, item creation, and exploitable Invocations. Eldritch Blast has one of the worst damage scaling rates in the game, so unless he is focusing on advancing his Monk abilities this will only become more and more of a nonissue, possibly to the point where he gets frustrated at how ineffective his character is. All of the good damage output Melee builds I've seen for Warlock typically rely on misinterpreting Hideous Blow, so this isn't that unusual. I would explain the error he has with his build to him and simply allow it to continue for this character, with the feat tax someone else mentioned.

Your clerics simply need to read up on clerics.

[Fouredged Sword]

Now, there is a feat that allows you to add your claw damage to unarmed strikes. That works with claws to allow for flurry of unarmed strikes with EB damage.

[graymachine]

Now, there is a feat that allows you to add your claw damage to unarmed strikes. That works with claws to allow for flurry of unarmed strikes with EB damage.

Clever, although is that RAW?

[eggynack]

Eldritch claws explicitly doesn't work with flurry of blows, if that's what you're asking.

[thethird]

Clever, although is that RAW?

It works since beast strike the feat in question has the following text:

"When you make an unarmed strike or grapple check to deal damage, you may add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed trike or grapple damage."

Thus it is not a flurry using the eldritch claws, but unarmed strikes.

[kardar233]

Clever, although is that RAW?

Yes, it's Beast Strike from Dragon #355.

[Telonius]

I'm DMing a gestalt good aligned campain for 3 players.
They are currently level 5.
The party contains the following heros:
Monk/Warlock
Cleric/Figther
Cleric/Ranger

The mnk/wlc does insane dmg with his fist/eldritch blast combo.
While the two others have really low dmg.

I figure they need some better items, but even so it feels quite wrong.
Does anyone have any suggestions or advice for me? :)

I'm assuming you've relaxed the alignment restrictions? Warlocks can be Any Chaotic or Any Evil, while (regular) Monks have to be Any Lawful. Under normal circumstances, the only way you'd be able to gestalt them is with a Lawful Evil character, but the campaign is supposed to be Good...

Anyway, the Clerics will be fine in a couple of levels when Divine Power comes online. Righteous Might will be even better (when they get 5th level spells).

The Fighter should be doing ridiculous amounts of damage on a charge, very soon. If not, work with him to make sure he's aware of the Shock Trooper feat chain; maybe allow a retroactive Dungeon Crasher.

Is the Ranger TWF or Archery?

[Teriki]

I'm assuming you've relaxed the alignment restrictions? Warlocks can be Any Chaotic or Any Evil, while (regular) Monks have to be Any Lawful. Under normal circumstances, the only way you'd be able to gestalt them is with a Lawful Evil character, but the campaign is supposed to be Good...

Yep that is correct.



The Fighter should be doing ridiculous amounts of damage on a charge, very soon. If not, work with him to make sure he's aware of the Shock Trooper feat chain; maybe allow a retroactive Dungeon Crasher.

Is the Ranger TWF or Archery?

Haven't heard of the fighter feats you are mentioning, or Dungeon Crasher for that matter. I guess they are not part of the books I currently own :)

The ranger is going TWF, although he's currently using the hammer he started with instead. I believe he mentioned something about replacing the hammer for two better weapons later when he found/bought something better.

[eggynack]

Yep that is correct.



Haven't heard of the fighter feats you are mentioning, or Dungeon Crasher for that matter. I guess they are not part of the books I currently own :)

The ranger is going TWF, although he's currently using the hammer he started with instead. I believe he mentioned something about replacing the hammer for when he found/bought something better.
Shock trooper is from complete warrior page 112, and dungeon crasher is an ACF from dungeonscape page 10. Going two weapon fighter on a ranger is probably a mistake, though it doesn't matter much because he's still a cleric.

[Malroth]

a Low OP cleric/fighter 5 with 16 STR base and self buffs should be doing 2d6+1(magic weapon) +7 (str mod of 20 STR x 1.5) + 10(power attack) for an average of 25 damage per attack with a minimum damage of 20 and additional cleric spells can improve damage significantly due to power attack and 2 handed str modifier scaling

The same OP Monk/Warlock 5 with 18 Str will only be dealing 1d8+3d6 (eldritch blast) +4(str) +4 (power attack) averaging 23 damage per strike with a minimum damage of 12 with significant problems boosting damage at all due to eldritch blast and monk unarmed strike being very difficult to improvel