Core only Faux Jedi

[SouthpawSoldier]

Current campaign is the first 3 core books only (PHB1, DMG1, & MM1). Starting at level one, and I like to keep it simple, so if it can be done, I'd like to avoid multiclassing.

For S&G's, and since I like to have a character on hand, I was thinking about doing a Jedi Consular-based build. Heavy on the mediation and negotiation, light (but not useless) on melee. Sticking with spells that buff me and charm others. Thinking either a Sorcerer (casting without preparation is more in line with how Jedi's use powers) or Cleric (MUCH better chances of survival in combat). An elf (resistance to sleep, meditation, and alertness traits very in line with Jedi), wielding a rapier is in line with user of Form II (dueling-focused one handed lightsaber form) and once my BAB gets to +1, tack on Weapon Finesse, obviously.

The problem is the Elf CON penalty combined with Sorcerer D4 HD means I'm squishy. I looked originally at Cleric with Knowledge (Divination is very Jedi-like) and War domains, but without a patron (or matron) diety, War domain is useless, and there's none with both War and Knowledge.

Any suggestions, or am I overly concered about my squishiness?

[Palanan]

I know you said core-only, right at the start...but is there any, any chance of using PHB2?

If so, then another option would be a beguiler. Spontaneous casting with a heavy emphasis on charm and illusion could be a good stand-in for Jedi mind tricks...getting folks to see things from a certain point of view.

Also, slightly better HD than a sorcerer, and much better on skill points, allowing you to max out social skills for diplomacy and mediation. You're also able to avoid arcane spell failure if you keep to light armor, which would seem to go well with Form II-style fencing.

I'm really partial to the class, but a beguiler Jedi sounds like fun to me. Worth asking your DM, at the very least...unless the core-only part has been graven in iron.

[Jack Zander]

You could try the battle sorcerer. I know the Playground isn't very fond of the class, but it seems to fit this style really well.

[Larkas]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15236964) from last week might be useful.

[Pilo]

I suggest you a half-elf cleric or bard.

While subobtimal, half-elf fits well the spirit of a consular.

Bard might be a good class for what you want to do and fits well with the consular except for casting a lot of spells.

Cleric will give you a lot of spells. Regarding domains, Knowledge and Protection/Law will fit better. Consulars are not the best in combat, you do not need War.

[Flickerdart]

You could try the battle sorcerer. I know the Playground isn't very fond of the class, but it seems to fit this style really well.
Not in OP's allowed books.

Cleric probably is the best bet - the self-buffs are certainly there, they can fight well (using the self-buffs), though charming others is not a highlight of their skillset.

A build that fights and casts spells on the same character is what's termed a "gish" (after the githyanki fighter-wizards of yore). Gishing is generally something that takes a few levels to grow into (with the exceptions of the aforementioned Cleric and Bard, plus Druid, who get a decent HD and BAB progression while also getting spells). You could start your career as a Sorcerer or Wizard, then take a level of Fighter somewhere along the line, and hop into Eldritch Knight for equal levels of face-swording and self-buffing.

[LibraryOgre]

Bard. Straight Bard, maybe with a "dance" fluff to your bard song (explaining why Jedis fight like ballroom dancers... it lets them give bonuses to others). Oratory is also good for jedi.

Pretty much anything you need to explain for Jedi can be handled via spells. Mind Trick? Hey, look, there's a suggestion power, or spell.

[Larkas]

Bard. Straight Bard, maybe with a "dance" fluff to your bard song (explaining why Jedis fight like ballroom dancers... it lets them give bonuses to others). Oratory is also good for jedi.

Pretty much anything you need to explain for Jedi can be handled via spells. Mind Trick? Hey, look, there's a suggestion power, or spell.

Oooooh, oratory is a good one here. Weapon drill would be awesome, if it could be used for bardic performance and was in core, but I digress.

[Razanir]

Oof! Core only. If XPH was allowed and it was SRD-only, it'd be easy. Soulknife 1/Psychic Warrior 9/War Mind 10 OR Soulknife 1/Psychic Warrior 19. But no XPH and therefore no Soulknife makes things tougher. I'd have to agree with everyone suggesting bards. Become a diplomancer

[SouthpawSoldier]

Oratory Bard is an interesting thought. The time limit of 5 rounds for the low level uses is kind of tricky to get around; maybe philosophical lectures on the morality of combat during encounters, or something along those lines. Might be fun to see what I can do with it.

Didn't even think about the half-elf route. Definitely worth looking into; thanks for that tip!

War as a Domain was my thoughts before I started thinking about elves; I was originally considering gnome as a race, for the buff to Illusion (Boccob for KNowledge and Trickery); as a Yoda impersonation, but I didn't like how it was looking.

DM has said while PHB and DMG II's and additional MM's are technically core, he wants to stick to the base 3 books for simplicities sake. I might be able to persuade him for the next one (next campaign we'll each get to add one book).

I loaned my PHB out and don't have it handy today. What dieties from PHB have knowldge and Protection or Law domains, if I went with Pilo's suggestion? To my mind, there's only 2 with Knowledge; Boccob (was considering going the Knowledge and Trickery routes) and a goddess whose name I can't remember right now.

[DisasterArea42]

I loaned my PHB out and don't have it handy today. What dieties from PHB have knowldge and Protection or Law domains, if I went with Pilo's suggestion? To my mind, there's only 2 with Knowledge; Boccob (was considering going the Knowledge and Trickery routes) and a goddess whose name I can't remember right now.

Boccob and Vecna are the two in the PHB with knowledge domains. Since Jedi pride themselves on neutrality, I would go for Boccob. Favored weapon: quarterstaff doesn't hurt, because double-bladed lightsaber.

Vecna is the god of secrets and is neutral evil. domains of evil, knowledge, and magic. Sith spy of some sort, but not a Jedi Consular.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Familar with Boccob; almost went that route before starting the thread. Was using him for Knowledge and Trickery, like I said. What about Law and Protection? Any deities that have Knowledge and one of those two?

[tiercel]

Oratory Bard is an interesting thought. The time limit of 5 rounds for the low level uses is kind of tricky to get around; maybe philosophical lectures on the morality of combat during encounters, or something along those lines. Might be fun to see what I can do with it.


If you're talking about Inspire Courage, keep in mind in that case that it's 5 rounds after you finish your oratory. You can keep exhorting your allies while swinging your er, rapier ("an elegant weapon for a more civilized age")—it's one reason why Perform (Oratory) is handy, it doesn't occupy your hands like the stereotypical lute.

You could be Jedi-philosophical, but given that at least some of your opponents will be Evil-with-a-capital-E, we-aren't-going-to-listen-to-your-Diplomancy violent, throwing in some more traditional exhortations (Patton, St Crispin's Day speech, etc) can work too.

And besides, you can't tell me that the Fascinate/Suggestion bardsong combo doesn't scream out "these are not the druids you are looking for" ;)

Various bardic illusion and enchantment spells work decently as generic "Jedi mind tricks." Ghost sound, dancing lights, silent image, prestidigitation, lesser confusion, hideous laughter, charm person, calm emotions, enthrall, silence, suggestion just to name a few lower level examples.

And if you're going to Diplomance, go hard: grab all the Diplomacy skill synergies and absolutely get a circlet of persuasion ASAP: +3 to all Cha checks helps a lot of your skills, including the tasty wonderful UMD skill, not to mention straight Cha checks (e.g. like the opposed checks you make for charm person/monster). For that matter, if you are going skillmonkey generally, check the PHB's entry on the generic "masterwork tool"—it's deliberately vague, but arguably you could pay a small amount of gold to get a +2 circumstance bonus to any skill if you can justify how the tool works (e.g. masterwork clothing, possibly "Jedi Consular robes" for +Diplomacy, a "focusing crystal" for +UMD, etc).

About the only downside of playing a bard for this campaign is not getting to experience how much you can dial a bard up to 11 when you have supplements available (even if you don't go the full Inspire Courage optimization route).


Familar with Boccob; almost went that route before starting the thread. Was using him for Knowledge and Trickery, like I said. What about Law and Protection? Any deities that have Knowledge and one of those two?

If you're looking for the cleric route and god-shopping, here's a decent resource (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html). For Core deities, if you are emphasizing Law and Protection then St Cuthbert is probably your man.

If you want Knowledge in there, you're either looking at non-Core deities (e.g. FR's Deneir), a non-deity "philosophy," or seeing if you can use UA variants (namely, the cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which is present in the SRD but not in the actual 3 Core books). If your DM is willing to count that as Core, it might not be a bad Jedi fit either (cloistered cleric of St Cuthbert, with Knowledge, Law, and Protection domains).

[SouthpawSoldier]

So, using SRD to read some about bards, and I found an issue: required alignment of non-lawful.

Personally, I don't see why a bard CAN'T be lawful; obeying the rules of a guild, training under a maestro, etc all are what I'd consider lawful behavior. But the book says non-lawful.
From some of the discussions DM and I have had, Jedi pretty much HAVE to be lawful, because of the monastic lifestyle and training. I tried the arguement of NG or CG; serving only their own moral requirement to help others while avoiding unneccessary violence, or assisting the Rebel Alliance local peasants fight against a cruel overlord. Or True Neutral as in the case of Grey Jedi, like in the KOTR games. No dice, but we were focused on other topics (see my Thaumaturgist thread in the homebrew section), so maybe I can use my Force Persuasion logic to convince him of the validity of that stance.

Got to say, the idea of going the other route, being a Sith master manipulator sounds like it could be wild too; might be able to argue the lack of lawful alignment easier that way (though chaotic Sith are short-lived Sith).

[SouthpawSoldier]

Oh, now that's a point; the only real need for a diety was because War is useless without one. No War domain, no need for a diety, and it frees me up quite a bit. Hrm HRRRRRMRMMMMMM.

[tiercel]

Oh, now that's a point; the only real need for a diety was because War is useless without one. No War domain, no need for a diety, and it frees me up quite a bit. Hrm HRRRRRMRMMMMMM.

It's arguable that the War domain would give you feats for the alignment-based weapons listed under spiritual hammer, but I don't know that there's RAW on that.

Still, Jedi are really more about a philosophy than following a particular god per se, so it would make sense to just play it that way (*especially* since it sounds like you already have a Code of Conduct going on, which is the usual RP reason to pick a god).

[dascarletm]

If you go with cleric, you could worship the ideal of balance, Domains: Law and whatever else, but Law is a must. Jedi are pretty much LN in their ideals.

[Zonugal]

You could do this fairly well with a Cleric. You'd have to accept that this is an adaptation and interpretation of a Jedi into DnD though, because assuming you can build a true-to-form Jedi in the system is ludicrous.

So first we build the fluff.

The Jedi are a mystical order dedicated to the balance and protection of that supreme force that binds all creatures together, magic. Seeking out ancient artifacts and hunting down those vile enough to use magic for their own wicked means, the Jedi wonder the world on missions from the Jedi council in pursuit of honoring such an order as well as strengthening their own connection to the magical force that bestows upon them their sacred powers.

Elven Cleric 1
(28 points) Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10
(32 points) Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike
Domains: Knowledge & Magic
Skills: Concentration 4, Diplomacy 2, Knowledge (Arcana) 1, Knowledge (Religion) 2, Knowledge (the Planes) 1, Spellcraft 2
Spells per day: 3 0-level spells per day; 2+1[D] 1st-level spells per day
Spells Typically Prepared
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Secret Doors [D]: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.

So at first level you've basically got a weaker fighter with some protective buffs (and a few utility spells). Elf is chosen to get you some nice weapon proficiencies and add a mystic element to the character. The Knowledge & Magic domain are chosen as they fit well with the theme or ideal the cleric worships and while their first-level spells aren't amazing they come into their own in later levels. Improved Unarmed Strike is chosen for two reasons: the first being that there aren't too many great feats for a 1st-level Cleric and it comes with a nice benefit of making you look monk-like (in addition to granting you the ability to always be armed as well as deal non-lethal damage to a foe), the second being that it sets up for the Cleric to take Deflect Arrows (which is a pretty Jedi thing to have).

Thoughts?

[dascarletm]

You could do this fairly well with a Cleric. You'd have to accept that this is an adaptation and interpretation of a Jedi into DnD though, because assuming you can build a true-to-form Jedi in the system is ludicrous.

So first we build the fluff.

The Jedi are a mystical order dedicated to the balance and protection of that supreme force that binds all creatures together, magic. Seeking out ancient artifacts and hunting down those vile enough to use magic for their own wicked means, the Jedi wonder the world on missions from the Jedi council in pursuit of honoring such an order as well as strengthening their own connection to the magical force that bestows upon them their sacred powers.

Elven Cleric 1
(28 points) Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10
(32 points) Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike
Domains: Knowledge & Magic
Skills: Concentration 4, Diplomacy 2, Knowledge (Arcana) 1, Knowledge (Religion) 2, Knowledge (the Planes) 1, Spellcraft 2
Spells per day: 3 0-level spells per day; 2+1[D] 1st-level spells per day
Spells Typically Prepared
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Secret Doors [D]: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.

So at first level you've basically got a weaker fighter with some protective buffs (and a few utility spells). Elf is chosen to get you some nice weapon proficiencies and add a mystic element to the character. The Knowledge & Magic domain are chosen as they fit well with the theme or ideal the cleric worships and while their first-level spells aren't amazing they come into their own in later levels. Improved Unarmed Strike is chosen for two reasons: the first being that there aren't too many great feats for a 1st-level Cleric and it comes with a nice benefit of making you look monk-like (in addition to granting you the ability to always be armed as well as deal non-lethal damage to a foe), the second being that it sets up for the Cleric to take Deflect Arrows (which is a pretty Jedi thing to have).

Thoughts?

If you have a list of available domains for a jedi, you should put law on there. (sorry to sound like a broken record.) What do you all think the available alignments should be?

[Flickerdart]

Seems like a 2 level Monk dip would benefit this character conceptually - Wisdom to AC is great for a Cleric and armour is not especially Jedi-like. This is a reduction in power, but given how powerful Clerics are it doesn't really matter unless you're playing with other T1 casters who know how to bring on the pain.

[DisasterArea42]

If you have a list of available domains for a jedi, you should put law on there. (sorry to sound like a broken record.) What do you all think the available alignments should be?

Jedi should be any non-evil, non-chaotic alignment, and the non-chaotic evil alignments would be a Sith.

Also, if you end up playing a Sith, remember that they aren't Stupid Evil, but instead follow a survival of the fittest mentality. Peace is Complacency, and being stoic means you are denying one of the fundamental parts of who you are. I would recommend the Evil, Law, Magic, Strength, and War domains as the available Sith Domains.

[Flickerdart]

Heironeous for Jedi (LG, of chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring, and valor) and Hextor for the Sith (LE, of war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny) seem like the most appropriate gods to crib domains and such from.

[nedz]

If you can stretch your books to include SRD/UA then there is the spontaneous cleric option. On the other hand preparing spells is a bit like meditation, only I don't recall Vancian casting in any of the movies.

Really though it ought to be Monk 2/Bard X, except Monks must be lawful, and Bards can't be :smallconfused: Divine Bard would reduce the MAD, but that's not core.

Monk 2 / Sorcerer X is also an option, but again MAD+

Monk 2 / Wizard X is the normal solution since Int is good for skill points.

[dascarletm]

I dunno, I see sith as more chaotic. Since the difference between the two is whether or not they let their feelings control them, not good or bad feelings, but feelings in general. Sith Barbarians makes sense since they rage. LET YOUR HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU.:smallbiggrin:

[Jack Zander]

I always forget that SRD isn't core...

I'd go with Bard. So what if you have to be neutral good?

[Feint's End]

Oof! Core only. If XPH was allowed and it was SRD-only, it'd be easy. Soulknife 1/Psychic Warrior 9/War Mind 10 OR Soulknife 1/Psychic Warrior 19. But no XPH and therefore no Soulknife makes things tougher. I'd have to agree with everyone suggesting bards. Become a diplomancer

If XPH, LoM and OA is allowed you'd get a better build with Soulknife 1(if you really want it ... I mean you can just reflavour a bastardsword and had a better thing)/Monk1/Psywar11/Shiba Protector1/Sanctified Mind6

Entirely wisdom based fighter (with 4 attacks since bab is +16), great to hit and damage (twice wisdom to hit) and enough feats to get the psipowers from the psions list to pull of all the mind tricks/ force effects you want.

[Flickerdart]

If XPH, LoM and OA is allowed you'd get a better build with Soulknife 1(if you really want it ... I mean you can just reflavour a bastardsword and had a better thing)/Monk1/Psywar11/Shiba Protector1/Sanctified Mind6
If you're taking Psywar anyway just use Soulbound Weapon ACF.

[SouthpawSoldier]

To stick within the limit of Core books, (not negotiable, so all these splatbook references are useless) it seems I really have only a couple options.

Human (to avoid XP penalty) monk for a bit, then cleric. Keeps within the lawful alignment usually assigned to Jedi, and cleric spell prep is in keeping with Jedi meditation. Downsides are that it's a little weak on the negotiation aspect of the Consular, a little heavy on the combat, and lacks the spontaneous casting that's more in line with how Jedi use powers.

Half-elf NG Bard Orator, modeled somewhat after Count Dooku (before he turned), wielding a rapier. Makes sense in a lot of ways; strong people manipulation, spontaneous casting, Half-elf traits reflect the strong will of a Force user; it's really lines up well. Only issue is argument of a non-lawful Jedi. Personally, I don't see why you can't have a NG or CG Jedi. There are grey Jedi who don't belong to the Order, so the lawful "monastic-lifestyle" alignment doesn't really apply. Just depends on how well I can argue the point with the DM.

The second option is closer to my character concept, but I have to find a way to argue it. The first is closer in line with Core rulebooks, and fits the conventional idea of a Jedi, but isn't what I'm looking to do with THIS character.

IF (and it's a big if) I can convince him to let me use PH2, the Beguiler option sounds sweet too, but runs into the same issues regarding alignment as the Bard.

[SouthpawSoldier]

BTW, I really appreciate the arguments on alignment and domain choices, since that's where I'm having the greatest difficulty. A few things brought up here (Bards, Beguilers, and Half-elves) are things I didn't even consider, and make a good bit of sense. Bards are a little weak on the divination, but otherwise sound really great. Just have to beat that "Jedi are monks and always lawful" argument.

[Flickerdart]

One way of solving the alignment issue is with Devoted Performer, which lets Bards be Lawful, but that's Complete Adventurer.

[WhatBigTeeth]

If you go bard, be sure to sink some UMD ranks for a wand of flame blade.

[sir_argenon]

sounds like a standard sorcadin would fit perfectly.

pal 2, sorc 6, eldritch knight 10, sorc 2.

8 th lvl spells. strong cha synergy: cha to saves. best spell list in the game, with spontaneous casting.

[Larkas]

sounds like a standard sorcadin would fit perfectly.

pal 2, sorc 6, eldritch knight 10, sorc 2.

8 th lvl spells. strong cha synergy: cha to saves. best spell list in the game, with spontaneous casting.

That's not the standard Sorcadin at all... But I guess that's as good as it gets in core-only... A Fighter 2/ Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Archmage 3 would probably be better crunch-wise, but it doesn't fit the Jedi fluff at all. :smallfrown:

[SouthpawSoldier]

So, finally got a chance to talk to the DM about the Jedi build while we playtested DND Next (awesome system, btw). His only issue was calling it a Jedi. "Jedi" means member of the order, ergo lawful. An untrained Force-sensitive who uses his powers through instinct, who has the exact same skill and power group, is perfectly kosher. Semantics is kind of a silly thing to get hung up on, but meh; as long as I get to follow the concept, I'm not gonna get twisted over it. Besides, it leaves the character room to change alignment and personality as time goes on while not having to worry about penalties.

The more I think about it, the more I dig the Half-elf bard. It just fits that "master manipulator" concept the best. The beguiler sounds fun, but PHB2 isn't kosher. The monk/cleric sounds great for a typical Jedi, but it's not exactly what I had in mind with this build. I may do a gnome based build at some point too, for the racial abilities. Just have to build them, and do a comparison.