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Komodo
2013-05-21, 08:34 AM
ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO READ THIS THREAD.


A pit of eternal torment, where the worst people who ever lived burn forever. Where demons reign uninhibited and are armed to the teeth with the unholiest weaponry defiled from the celestial realms. The home of the essence and origin of every evil beast and act ever was or done, or else the place where the above are tortured forever because obliterating them is literally too good for them.

And a place that practically begs DMs to point their PCs toward and dare them to enter.

But should they?

Allow me to start the discussion with a little tale: I was once in a game of Vampire: Dark Ages. With the style of play we were using, it might as well have been called: "Vampire: Diablerie Larceny Vandalism PVP Hooray." Even so, it was still fun. The games eventually fell apart for a number of reasons, power creep being a prominent one. Even so, I will always remember the tipping point as the time the party found a gate to Hell.

I wasn't at the session they found the gate, but I did take a trek within. Two of the other characters has high stamina, were well-armored, and had multiple levels of Fortitude (for the non-initiated, that means they were pretty much invincible). The trek involved encounters with various flavors of nasty and an impromptu PVP session. At the end, my battered body had to be dragged back by the invincibles, who had in the meantime acquired the services of a Succubus they kept in a bag of holding (long story that I never quite understood myself).

Now, you could say that there were a lot of things wrong with that campaign, and there were. However, it did get me thinking about the use of Hell in games. In our vampire game, Hell was a totally disenchanted concept. We basically could come and go as we pleased, with minimal danger. Even those of us who weren't neigh-invulnerable (myself) weren't in too much danger if we stayed out of the way. Hell, some of the characters even set up business deals with prominent demons. Ideally, something as important as Hell probably should require maximum force and danger to get within visual range of its gate, much less enter, if even that. And just so many opportunities were passed up by not having any of them even try to trick or cheat us when making business.

At time of writing, I am in a different game, and my group is approaching the final encounter. After a game of wandering through mindscapes and being chased by twisted monstrosities in a city that does not abide by the laws of nature, we have reached what may be our last stand: a pit of unknown depth, surrounded by what seem to be human sacrifices. The place is maintained by a finely-suited, well-spoken gentleman who, if he isn't Satan, certainly wants to believe he is. The session left off with us being told that we were in Hell just before the lights all went out. Now, I should mention that our GM has been doing a very good job at telling the story so far, and I should also mention that a major theme of this game has been a blurred line between reality and unreality, but I am still rather anxious. How, exactly, we are supposed to escape from this without short-selling how dangerous it's supposed to be? Also, while I can't say that this development is completely out of tone with the rest of the game, I will say that most of what we've encountered have been twisted humanoids with a basis in psychological symbolism. Jumping right into something so...spiritual, for lack of a better word, seems like an odd decision.

So, I figured I'd present the question to you all, to get what your thoughts are in regards to the use of Hell, Hades, Tartarus, Baator, R'lyeh, Yomi, or equivalent in your games. When is it appropriate to send the PCs to Hell? Should such a thing be seen as too great for any hero, keeping a strong dramatic weight? If they do go, should they be allowed to gain any sort of martial foothold, or should they have escape only in mind? Can it still be fun/engaging even if religion has not been a theme in the game thus far? Must such a thing be connected to religion/spirituality to work?

I am eager to hear your thoughts.

Alejandro
2013-05-21, 09:56 AM
Hell, or its equivalent, should be extremely easy to get into and extremely hard to get out of.

And there should be at least one half demon, half golem/warforged.

TheStranger
2013-05-21, 10:27 AM
I think it's just a question of playstyle. You seem to want a version of Hell with a lot of dramatic weight (and perhaps faithfulness to a specific idea of what Hell is), while Alejandro appears to want the Robot Devil (or some other reference, but that was my first guess). Both are fine, but probably not in the same game.

So to answer your question, there isn't really a right or wrong way to use Hell in a game, but certain approaches may resonate more with different players or groups. Also, any approach can be executed well or poorly, which is going to color your perception of it. But at the end of the day, however Hell is being used in a game, at least one person (the GM) presumably thought it was a pretty good idea to use it that way.

Hell is generally both a place and an idea, and both the place and the idea have a wide variety of sometimes-contradictory aspects. These aspects can be played straight or subverted, depending on the needs of the story. The only time there's a problem is if the people at the table aren't on the same page as to whether you're invoking Dante or Diablo.

Rhynn
2013-05-21, 10:31 AM
This depends entirely on the mythology of the setting. Also, there's a difference between "Hell" (a place of punishment; Hell, Tartarus) and an "underworld" (place of the dead; Sheol, Manala, Hel).

In Glorantha of RuneQuest/HeroQuest, the Underworld (which contains various Hells, but not all Hells) is the Otherworld beneath the Earth (basically, the universe is Darkness beneath, Water above it, Earth on/within the waters, Air between Sky and Earth, and Sky above). It's the original home of the trolls (who call it Wonderhome), the most ancient place, and for non-trolls, a place of terror and dread. The Path of the Dead leads the spirits of the dead there to be judged and sorted into their respective afterlives. It's also a classic place for mythical questing. The most famous ritual HeroQuest involves travelling into the Underworld, facing its terrors, and retrieving someone who is dead. The typical portrayal is very Greek-inspired, with a River to cross, a Hound guardian, etc. There's demons, the souls of the dead, and chthonic deities.

My interpretation of Gloranthan resurrection is that during the seven days the soul is on the Path of the Dead, it can be called back - that's why dead corpses are laid out in the main hall or chamber of their family's home for one week, in case they stop being dead - but after that (or if there is no body), the only way to bring someone to life is a HeroQuest into the Underworld to get their spirit back. The Underworld and its Hells are also a traditional place for imprisoning heroes who cannot or must not be killed (or who would just come back).

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World has a strikingly similar Underworld (maybe both settings drew from the same real ancient mythology?), except there's actual game mechanics involved: seven days on the Path of the Dead (try to find it, aided by prayers and hindered by curses or, e.g., having been hanged), get lost in Limbo if you can't; traverse the Path into the Underworld; be judged at the Court of Seedre (where everyone dead before you whom you wronged appears to accuse you, including animals whose flesh you ate that did not ritually agree to be sacrificed and eaten); hopefully get rescued by an angel if you're a follower of the Divine King (who don't hold with sacrifice); and otherwise get sent to the Underworld of the dead or the Seven Hells for punishment and purification if you're a sinner.

A:AKW explicitly presents entering the Underworld (and the other Otherworlds) as an activity Heroes can undertake, but aside from basic rules, no detail is given. Obviously, just entering the Underworld and coming back will signify you're a freaking Hero, but I can think of other things to do: saving a soul from Hell, consulting one of the dead (possibly a soul in Hell, who is unable to visit the living on the Day of the Dead or be summoned), find some great treasure taken into the Underworld by a God or Hero, marvel at the divine wonders of the Underworld, gain wisdom by drinking from some special pool or river, etc.

I very much like the idea, for a D&D setting, of making the Underworld/Underdark mythic and supernatural for realz: the deep and vast caves underneath the Earth are just the outer chambers and tunnels of the real Underworld, the place of the dead, and if you go deep enough, you'll be in the realm of the dead and the Gods of Below. Eberron's Khyber is something like this, at least in my interpretation: if you go deep enough, you'll start finding creatures of awesome power that, at least, consider themselves gods, as well as portals to or places where other dimensions cross over and bleed in. Adventure deep enough, and you'll find immortal monsters and gods' troves.

EccentricCircle
2013-05-21, 01:18 PM
I've used the premise of adventurers going to Hell twice, both with some success.

The first time they knew what they were letting themselves in for. We wanted to do a high ish level D&D game, so I said, "Right, your mission is to steal the Devil's crown." they knew that they didn't stand a chance against a lot of the things down there, so were mainly concerned with stealth. It was interesting to watch the party's descent into evil as they delved deeper into Hell. One character became possessed, they left another behind and the game became something of a xanatos roulette between the survivors. Ultimately the possessed character and another reached the vault where the crown was kept at which point the possessed character hit his friend over the head and took the crown for himself. They'd brought a scroll of banishment to return them to the prime material, which he took from his unconsious friend's pack.
And then that player revealed that he'd talked to me earlier and we'd agreed that the scroll of banishment was really one of baleful polymorph.
The unconsious character regained consiousness, took the crown and the rather startled chincilla and returned home using the real banishment scroll he'd had secreted about his person the whole time.

In this case the struggle against the terrors of hell was as much internal as external. They were able to defeat some low level threats and evade some high level ones. But it was the interparty conflict that ultimately gave the game its most memorable moments.

The second time I used this premise slightly differently. I told the players that we'd be playing a game called "The Wages of Sin" in which they were a bunch of thieves and mercinaries of dubious character. they were hired by the sinister Mr Azrael to raid the ruined, but presumably still trap filled tower of a long dead wizard and recover the notes on the powerful spell he'd been working on when he died. The first session was just that, but at the end of it I had the tower cave in on them. Rocks fell, everyone died. And Mr Azrael reintroduced himself as DEATH himself. And explained that he still wanted that spell, but that no records of it survived in the mortal world. If they infiltrated Hell and got the spell, or the wizard for him he'd let them return to life.

This time they used a mix of trickery and stealth to get in, before finding a patron to help them, embroiling themselves in the politics of the devils and the damned as they did so. The campaign has recently finished, actually ending with the characters, having escaped the underworld some time before, teaming up with the exiled Norse Gods to defeat the One God who currently ruled the universe and set the old order back up. Again a good time was had by all. And no one was annoyed or upset at the trick to get them into the campaign. Which was my main concern when planning it out. For the end of the first session to work I couldn't tell them where they'd be going. But they took to it with gusto.

Here the danger of Hell, and indeed the power of the Gods, really came from the plots and schemes in which they became embroiled. It wasn't dangerous because they fought powerful monsters, although they did a few times. But because they were right in the centre of things cutting deals with those monsters, and with Gods and Heroes and Epic level dark wizards who'd taken their greatest secrets to the grave.

They knew that Angels and Demons were tough, so most of the time they found ways around fighting them. Which made it all the more enjoyable when on occasion they had to, and actually won. The PC's didn't actually take part in the final battle against the One God. It was out of their league and they knew it. That goes against one of the Golden Rules of DM'ing, that you should let the players do things rather than having them watch NPC's do them. But in this case I think it was another gamble that paid off. They felt involved enough in the plot to happily watch from the sidelines, and take credit for setting up the situation where it could happen rather than landing the final blows themselves.

I hope that helps. Its a plot i'd definitely recomend, but it has to be something other than a traditional hack and slash, otherwise, as you rightly say, it just becomes a larger more evil looking dungeon.

Jacob.Tyr
2013-05-21, 01:41 PM
A lot of stuff.

Did... did they get the spell?

tomandtish
2013-05-21, 05:12 PM
ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO READ THIS THREAD.


A pit of eternal torment, where the worst people who ever lived burn forever. Where demons reign uninhibited and are armed to the teeth with the unholiest weaponry defiled from the celestial realms. The home of the essence and origin of every evil beast and act ever was or done, or else the place where the above are tortured forever because obliterating them is literally too good for them.

And a place that practically begs DMs to point their PCs toward and dare them to enter.

You're talking about Hell? Thank goodness! I thought you were talking about Christmas with my in-laws… :smallbiggrin:

My one hell-based campaign was part of a plot to corrupt the party. After fighting several devils, they attempted to interrupt a major ritual. A complicated illusion made them think they had succeeded, but actually transported them to Hell, but an area that had been created to exactly duplicate their home realm.

The corruption started gradually. Their "lord", a Paladin King, became harsher in his sentencing of criminals, and would send them out to find wrong doers, but wrong doers became more common for less serious crimes. The "court wizard" needed exotic components to cast spells that could only come from killing good creatures (which the party was able to rationalize doing).

It gradually reached the point where the NG fighter was prepared to sacrifice a unicorn for the horn to save his wife. The player looked at me and said "You know, this game has gotten really dark. I'm not sure I'm good anymore". I took him aside and said "Who said you’ve been anything but evil for a while now?".

I will admit, he did some great roleplaying repenting of his actions and convincing the rest of the party. They ended up sacrificing themselves to end a ritual that would have established a permanent gate between their world and hell.

EccentricCircle
2013-05-22, 05:26 AM
Did... did they get the spell?

Not as such no. They found the wizard, but it turned out that he'd rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven. As it were. He'd never completed the spell, and by that point they were fairly certain that it wasn't as central to Death's plans as he'd made out. Essentially the spell was supposed to create a God...

Exposition time:
Once there were many gods, now there is but one.
In the elder days the gods were legion and they fought among themselves with fire and thunder. But when the gods fought, lands were laid waste without a second thought. In time the gods began to form alliances and pantheons but this only made their wars more terrible, until at last it became apparent that if any gods were to come to blows the results would be a war like no other, where every deity would be drawn into the fray and all would perish in it.
Fearing such an event the gods came to an agreement. They would each take a portion of their power and pour it into a great brazier. Then each pantheon would retreat to a different edge of reality, safe in the knowledge that none of them now possessed the power to destroy another god. They vowed to meddle no more in each other’s affairs and for a time there was peace.
But only for a time. Dariel and Anastasha, two gods of old Atlantis quarrelled with their Lord and were cast out of their domain. And wondering through the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights their minds turned to revenge and they began to draw up a great plan. What if there were no other gods and they could rule alone for all eternity? They had only to slip past the defences that had been set about the throne of heaven and seize the brazier for themselves. Then commanding a measure of the power of all the gods they would be invincible.
No legends tell the full story of the War in Heaven but it is known that the old gods could not stand against the might of the usurpers. Some gods were slain, others imprisoned. Most were cast out into outer darkness where they built great fastnesses in the likeness of the palaces of old. But they were cut off from the world and the mortals who had revered them, and though they threw their power against the walls of reality they fought in vain.
For a time the world grew bountiful under the watchful eye of the King and Queen of heaven. The battering of their foes against the walls of reality grew faint and was all but forgotten. But their reign had been founded on treachery and so the seed of its doom was sown. The annals of the church say that in time Anastasha grew jealous of sharing the rule of reality with Dariel and sought to overthrow him. But the Last God was warned of her schemes and foiled her plan. He cast here down into the depths of the underworld there to be damned for all eternity.
Some tell a different tale. They say that it was Dariel who grew jealous of Anastasha, and so conspired to imprison her, and rule the universe alone. Whatever the truth two gods had been enough to hold the multitude of exiled powers at bay. But now Dariel found himself alone against a host of angry gods. The walls of heaven are embattled and besieged once more. So far they have held but for how much longer only time will tell...


Long Story short. When he took over Dariel killed all of the gods of death, or cast them out into Outer Darkness. Death can claim the souls of the dead, but he can't judge them. He needs a god of death to use the scales, as thats beyond the power of an anthropomorphic personification.

If the spell had worked he could have created a new god of death. But he already knew that it didn't and was playing a longer game. He manipulated the player characters, the dead wizard and the norse gods who were laying siege to the universe from where they had been cast out to overthrow Dariel, so that Dariel would be killed and would become a new Death God subservient to the Reaper himself (since, being dead, his soul would be Death's to command). Essentially the campaign ended with a "Raiders of Pandora's Box" kind of adventure as each of the factions rushed to find Pandora's box and the spirit of hope trapped inside it, which they could use to tip the balance of power in the war between the new God and the old.