Anti-Mage Ideas

[Ken Adams]

Im trying to put together and anti-mage. We are playing in ebberon campaign setting any book is a go, just crazy things have to get ran by the DM first. We are at level 13 so i should be able to get a good build out of a 13th lv char. I tried to do a char useing the following but the DM said no levels 1-6 HEXBLADE and 7-13 Suel Acanamach he mostly said no because of the hexblades curse he is anti evil everything even though i lobbied the curse would be used for the greater good he said no and i had no way to learn the special language for seul acanamach anyways. I have only been playing d&d for a couple years now and im over looking great classes im sure, thats why im posting and looking for ideas to build.

Ken

[Juntao112]

Have you considered using the monk?

[eggynack]

Have you considered using the monk?
What? That doesn't even come close to taking out wizards. You should build an anti-wizard wizard. Wizards are just about the only thing that can take out a wizard anyway, and I think the flavor of a wizard who kills wizards could be pretty cool. If you want to kill wizards as your main character goal, then you're going to need something pretty high up there in terms of power. You could also put together a cleric who's fighting a holy war against evil wizards. Not monks though. They look like they'd be good at fighting wizards, but they're not.

[Ken Adams]

Yes and no. I know a monk would get alot of attacks in useing fury of blows but to a point not sure how it would help with an anti-mage/anti-magic char.

and we have already a 14th level pally and a 13th level cleric and a 13th level druid so just saying makeing another cleric/druid would be a little overdoing it i think.


Ken

[Nettlekid]

If he's anti-evil, and you're past level 12, I want to suggest Paladin. From Complete Champion there's a variant that lets you give up your special mount to get things like fast movement, but most importantly at level 12 you get Earth Glide as an extraordinary (nonmagical) ability. Now for as long as you can hold your breath you can run around underground, free from line of effect and basically untargetable. Find some means of getting Tremorsense and go full Graboid on the casters. Maybe grab an Antimagic Torc or something so that when you surface you can catch them unawares, without magical protection. A few feats grab you the Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack line (made a little easier if you use the spell-less paladin for bonus feats) which means that on a charge you can do an attack with full BAB and 52+(1.5*Str) damage.

[eggynack]

Yes and no. I know a monk would get alot of attacks in useing fury of blows but to a point not sure how it would help with an anti-mage/anti-magic char.

and we have already aand aand aso just saying makeing another cleric/druid would be a little overdoing it i think.


Ken
Ooh, then the anti-wizard wizard is the only suggestion remaining. It's totally the best one too. Like, maybe wizards kicked him when he was younger, so now he uses wizardry to kick other wizards. Whatever. I just think that it'd be sweet. I don't have some kind of broad character outline done, but there's a way to pull it off that makes sense.

[Telonius]

Is this supposed to be a character that's good against mages in general, or are you going after a particular mage?

Either way, how powerful does your DM typically make Wizards? Wizards have a pretty wide range of power possibilities, ranging from near-useless to godlike, depending on how much the person knows what he's doing. Do his wizards usually spend their time throwing Fireballs, or are they doing battlefield control, or are they opening up their own personal demiplanes?

[Zombulian]

Im trying to put together and anti-mage. We are playing in ebberon campaign setting any book is a go, just crazy things have to get ran by the DM first. We are at level 13 so i should be able to get a good build out of a 13th lv char. I tried to do a char useing the following but the DM said no levels 1-6 HEXBLADE and 7-13 Suel Acanamach he mostly said no because of the hexblades curse he is anti evil everything even though i lobbied the curse would be used for the greater good he said no and i had no way to learn the special language for seul acanamach anyways. I have only been playing d&d for a couple years now and im over looking great classes im sure, thats why im posting and looking for ideas to build.

Ken

Reading this had me imagining you gasping for breath after uttering a sentence that long in real life :smalleek:
I would recommend looking into the Black Blood Cultist PrC with the Mageslayer feat and some type of way to have Anti-Magic Field up all the time. Shutting down casters by grappling works fairly well, and when they can't cast defensively or within the AMF, it works pretty consistently.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok crazy build here, but here we go

Fighter 2 / Feat rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Swordsage 6

Ok get the mageslayer line of feats, aiming for pierce magical concealment and protection.

Trade the monk evasion for ray reflection. Trade Flurry of Blows for the monk ACF that allows for a double damate strike as a full round action. Use the alternate feat selection monk schools to pick up power attack.

Cleric gets the travel devotion and turn attempts to power it.

Now, wield a quarterstaff, one end brilliant energy, the other end disruption.

Take a swift move action (travel devotion) to get up to the wizard, and then clobber then with a double damage power attack touch attack that ignores all magical defenses.

Have a nice day.

[the_david]

The Arcane Hunter alternative class feature for Rangers (Complete Mage) might help. You can take Favored Enemy (Arcanist) if you have a at least 1 rank in Knowledge (Arcana)
The Occult Slayer is a Prestige Class. (Complete Warrior) I'm not so sure about this one, but who knows?

I also support the anti-wizard wizard. There can be only one!

[Zombulian]

Ok crazy build here, but here we go

Fighter 2 / Feat rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Swordsage 6

Ok get the mageslayer line of feats, aiming for pierce magical concealment and protection.

Trade the monk evasion for ray reflection. Trade Flurry of Blows for the monk ACF that allows for a double damate strike as a full round action. Use the alternate feat selection monk schools to pick up power attack.

Cleric gets the travel devotion and turn attempts to power it.

Now, wield a quarterstaff, one end brilliant energy, the other end disruption.

Take a swift move action (travel devotion) to get up to the wizard, and then clobber then with a double damage power attack touch attack that ignores all magical defenses.

Have a nice day.

People reference the Mageslayer *line,* but I've never known it to be more than just the one feat.
To what are you referring?

[Shining Wrath]

Your party already has two full casters (Cleric, Druid), a frontline fighter (Druid's animal companion) and a fighter / buffer / healer blend (Pally).

What you need to supply for mage squishing is the glass cannon. So:


Sorcerer with a focus on direct damage
Ubercharger
Back-stabber
Archer
Artificer


Eberron campaign makes Artificer a good match, plus it's Tier One and can bring the skill monkey. For back-stabber I suggest Swordsage with appropriate feats (and don't overlook the throws from Setting Sun: grabbing a mage and hurling him to land prone in front of the animal companion is full of win).

[Fouredged Sword]

Mageslayer is a prereq for some other feats in the same book. They are very powerful for those who want to attack spellcasters. One allows the attacker to ignore all bonuses to armor class from magic, the other allows the attacker to ignore any concealment provided by magic.

Both are very powerful, and between that and a brilliant energy weapon you are aiming at a 10+dex more commonly than not.

[tyckspoon]

The Arcane Hunter alternative class feature for Rangers (Complete Mage) might help. You can take Favored Enemy (Arcanist) if you have a at least 1 rank in Knowledge (Arcana)
The Occult Slayer is a Prestige Class. (Complete Warrior) I'm not so sure about this one, but who knows?


Spell reflection and immunity to mind-affecting are pretty nice. The rest is fairly blah; up to you if you think it's worth spending 5 levels.

[stack]

Mageslayer is a prereq for some other feats in the same book. They are very powerful for those who want to attack spellcasters. One allows the attacker to ignore all bonuses to armor class from magic, the other allows the attacker to ignore any concealment provided by magic.

Both are very powerful, and between that and a brilliant energy weapon you are aiming at a 10+dex more commonly than not.

Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment, respectively.

If you want to take a mundane character against low-op casters, these + occult slayer rock. As noted above, nothing stops high-op casters but other casters.

[georgie_leech]

Ok crazy build here, but here we go

Fighter 2 / Feat rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Swordsage 6

Ok get the mageslayer line of feats, aiming for pierce magical concealment and protection.

Trade the monk evasion for ray reflection. Trade Flurry of Blows for the monk ACF that allows for a double damate strike as a full round action. Use the alternate feat selection monk schools to pick up power attack.

Cleric gets the travel devotion and turn attempts to power it.

Now, wield a quarterstaff, one end brilliant energy, the other end disruption.

Take a swift move action (travel devotion) to get up to the wizard, and then clobber then with a double damage power attack touch attack that ignores all magical defenses.

Have a nice day.

Quibble, if you're going Feat Rogue, it should probably come first so you get the delicious X4 skills on the Rogue's 8+INT over the fighter's 2+INT.

[Selenir]

Your DM is both uncreative and unnecessarily restrictive. How disappointing that he's not able to figure out how to re-fluff Suel Arcanamach (a very fun anti-caster class) and is so vehemently opposed to Hexblade that he won't let a Neutral character (Hexblades aren't evil, they're nongood) play one. DMs like that, with no creativity, make me wonder how they can ever run a successful campaign.

If he does let you get Suel Arcanamach, you could replace Hexblade with Paladin instead. You get the same saving throw bonuses (Divine Grace). You should boost your saves as much as possible, and wearing armor is far from necessary against a wizard. Your AC should be mostly Dex based, and your saves your number one priority. You should try to get Evasion and Mettle, so that when your high saves protect you from a "Save half" spell, you take no effect.

[Larkas]

I second the Artificer. Nothing says "screw the Wizard" quite as well as pulling off its tricks without being part of the class. Well, at least in part. :smallbiggrin:

[Tegannie]

I don't know how good it is, but isn't there an anti-mage PrC in Magic of Incarnum?

[eggynack]

How about barbarian going into rune scarred berserker? You are full of rage towards the mighty and condescending wizards in their ivory wizard towers, so you carve magic into yourself in some crude approximation of their magic. The first advantage of this path is that you can probably kill wizards of moderate optimization on a charge, especially if you're built with the mage slayer line that others have mentioned. The second, is that at level 9 of the PrC you get the ability to cast anti-magic field. You have to be at level 16 to pull it off, but it's a really cool maneuver.

[Fouredged Sword]

To quibble my own build, I think I ended up having to make it

Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / Feat Rogue 2 / CC 1 / SS X

Due to prereqs on the mageslayer line. You need all those fighter feats and need +3bab to pick up mageslayer at 4th level as a fighter feat, unless I am miss remembering. I remember it being tight to fit in PMC in.

The pay out is nice though.

You get a nice offense through Focused Attack
You get a nice touch AC through high dex/wis
You get Concentration checks as saves
Any missed touch attack returns to sender
You get tactical teleportation

I think I also wanted to go changling and then warshaper after I got the basics for maneuvers. Reach, mageslayer, and trip attacks mean that spellcasters can't retreat to cast.

Oh, and snapkick adds an extra swing onto a focused attack at higher levels!

[Eldariel]

How about barbarian going into rune scarred berserker? You are full of rage towards the mighty and condescending wizards in their ivory wizard towers, so you carve magic into yourself in some crude approximation of their magic. The first advantage of this path is that you can probably kill wizards of moderate optimization on a charge, especially if you're built with the mage slayer line that others have mentioned. The second, is that at level 9 of the PrC you get the ability to cast anti-magic field. You have to be at level 16 to pull it off, but it's a really cool maneuver.

You get few other handy spells too. Of course, the AMF is only so good unless you can fly without magic; "Feathered Wings"-graft from Fiend Folio helps a lot with that. You do need a level of Warblade or something that makes you unable to fail Will-saves on 1 to avoid eventually going insane tho.

[tyckspoon]

I don't know how good it is, but isn't there an anti-mage PrC in Magic of Incarnum?

Witchborn Binder. It's mediocre at best; it's not a very good Meldshaping class (drops 4 meldshaper levels and doesn't unlock new binding chakras) and the anti-mage stuff it gets is kind of sad- you get a crappy Dispel Magic and a crappy counterspelling ability (both using caster level checks where meldshaper level = caster level.. and see previous comment about dropping 4 caster levels) and a couple of ineffective ways of restraining a caster.

[Eldariel]

Witchborn Binder. It's mediocre at best; it's not a very good Meldshaping class (drops 4 meldshaper levels and doesn't unlock new binding chakras) and the anti-mage stuff it gets is kind of sad- you get a crappy Dispel Magic and a crappy counterspelling ability (both using caster level checks where meldshaper level = caster level.. and see previous comment about dropping 4 caster levels) and a couple of ineffective ways of restraining a caster.

Speaking of Binders, however, Witch Slayer from Tome of Magic is quite good. Combined with Occult Slayer and maybe Runescarred Berserker/Warblade/etc. you can get a pretty solid setup for surprising magi.

Witch Slayer's Momentary Disjunction does have a save, but it's not a horrible DC if you pump your Charisma, and it has range and it's a swift action so it's overall a fairly useful ability.

[eggynack]

You get few other handy spells too. Of course, the AMF is only so good unless you can fly without magic; "Feathered Wings"-graft from Fiend Folio helps a lot with that. You do need a level of Warblade or something that makes you unable to fail Will-saves ongoing insane tho.
That sounds about right on both counts. The way I figured it, a lot of these builds rely on stabbing folks in a magic stopping way, and runescarred berserkers are about as good at stabbing stuff as it gets. You could probably do better with tome of battle, but it's actually a toss up I think. Runescarred berserker doesn't even require that you take more than the optimal number of barbarian levels, so you can pull off the traditional "crazy series of melee dips" build. One of those dips could even be warblade, in keeping with your graft plan.

[Eldariel]

That's true; that's indeed what I meant - Warblade/Barbarian/X (Fighter, Ranger, whatever) into Runescarred Berserker is quite solid. You can even add Occult Slayer in there. Witch Slayer is a different build, granted, and probably not as powerful.

In general, the trick to beating a Wizard is being multithreat; it's likely that a Wizard has the ways to deal with any given trick given time but dealing with multiple tricks in a short period is generally harder, if not impossible. Obviously everything relies on subpar preparation on the Wizard's side but for example, back when we ran those Warrior vs. Wizard fights with Talic, the fact that I had access to "Greater Celerity" in form of Eternal Blade's capstone combined with the ability to negate AMFs (Iron Heart Surge), see invisibility non-magically (Spot and Clarity of Vision Skilltrick and Hearing the Air stance), good saves & HP and some immunities, AoO setup, and Force/Wood longrange attacks (Archer-build) combined with sufficient melee capability to one-shot a mage (Power Attack + ToB) enabled me to kill him twice when he was underprepared. The more tricks you can have in your repertoire, the better.

If I were to make that character again, I'd add Legacy Weapon with the Cunning-ability, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Heal and so on (saves a lot of gold), Feathered Wings for strong non-magical flight (I had to use Dragonborn with Wings-aspect, which is eminently weaker), some source of Hide in Plain Sight (e.g. Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis), Phasing Arrows and possibly some source of Mettle & Pounce (there's already a level of Barbarian so Pounce is trivial; Mettle would be harder) and some more detection abilities (Ghostform was something I couldn't really deal with in spite of having access to One with Shadow-maneuver, since I had no way of locating him inside a wall).

[Carth]

Speaking of Binders, however, Witch Slayer from Tome of Magic is quite good. Combined with Occult Slayer and maybe Runescarred Berserker/Warblade/etc. you can get a pretty solid setup for surprising magi.

Witch Slayer's Momentary Disjunction does have a save, but it's not a horrible DC if you pump your Charisma, and it has range and it's a swift action so it's overall a fairly useful ability.

There is a decent amount of other ways to raise the DC, too, such as the veil of allure. Against optimized foes it won't work, but then again, that argument can be made about most anti caster strategies anyway.

Also, the runescarred berserker prestige class might be of interest.

[Eldariel]

There is a decent amount of other ways to raise the DC, too, such as the veil of allure. Against optimized foes it won't work, but then again, that argument can be made about most anti caster strategies anyway.

Aye, but Will-save tends to be a traditionally strong point on the casters so it's not that easy to attack, particularly vs. Wis-casters like Druids or Clerics. Any mage who's vulnerable to it is also vulnerable to many Will SoDs. But yeah, pump the save DC enough and it might work. It's also a Swift Action and 30' range so it's not as unwieldy as most options.

There are many degrees of optimization; this can fail against the lower levels too. In general, expecting a caster to fail a save is a risky proposition.

[Carth]

It all depends on your charisma focus and other things I suppose. Ability focus and a veil of allure make the DC 24+cha mod, which is nothing to sneeze at. All the charisma synergy out there is enough to have a mod of at least 6, and a DC 30 save is nothing to take lightly.

[Eldariel]

It all depends on your charisma focus and other things I suppose. Ability focus and a veil of allure make the DC 24+cha mod, which is nothing to sneeze at. All the charisma synergy out there is enough to have a mod of at least 6, and a DC 30 save is nothing to take lightly.

Of course, but like, a level 7 spell from a high level Wizard with no feats also has DC 10+7 Lvl+13 Stat so it's nothing casters don't face regularly. Hell, level 12 Wizard casting Feeblemind has 10+5Lvl+9 Int+4 Vs. Casters = DC 28 Will-saves from level 5 slots. A feat would make it 29-30, as would Heighten or something.

[Carth]

I agree, but there's an extent to which a DM needs to design weaknesses for bad guys, and giving bad guys saves over 20 is starting to push it until you get to level 15, so if you go into witch slayer at 6th level to get disjunction at 10th level, from level 10-15 it's not bad. The higher you get, though, well, we all know how that goes. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

I agree, but there's an extent to which a DM needs to design weaknesses for bad guys, and giving bad guys saves over 20 is starting to push it until you get to level 15, so if you go into witch slayer at 6th level to get disjunction at 10th level, from level 10-15 it's not bad. The higher you get, though, well, we all know how that goes. :smallbiggrin:

Eh, that depends on the DM. I'd never just go out and actually design a weakness into a PC or an NPC; weaknesses are plentiful in game design so there's no need to handcraft extras. Will tends to be the strong save for casters by default so while it's possible to attack, it wouldn't be my preference :smalltongue:

[Carth]

True, designed weakness was a poor turn of phrase on my part - more that you make sure an encounter is solvable. If they don't find the right hole, start rolling stats again. :smallbiggrin:

[Zombulian]

True, designed weakness was a poor turn of phrase on my part - more that you make sure an encounter is solvable. If they don't find the right hole, start rolling stats again. :smallbiggrin:

My group is particularly bad with that >.>
"What? We can't punch it? Well... Then we'll just punch *through* it."

[Carth]

One other thing I'll point out is that momentary disjunction is versatile enough to be useful enough against non-casters, it disables all SP and SU abilities of a creature, which can be great against certain monsters.

[tiercel]

If you're looking for the "anti-mage warrior" type, if you have access to FR material the Mystic Fire Knight ACFs for paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a, scroll down) are pretty sweet. Combine them with some of the anti-mage feats and you've got a decent start.

As others have said, if you are facing seriously optimized mages it's going to be hard to win without being a high-tier caster yourself, whether it's an anti-wizard wizard, an anti-wizard cleric (holy war!), an anti-wizard druid (vs abominations unto nature!), an anti-wizard psion (Psi Corps unite against the magocracy!), etc.

[Just to Browse]

I'm going to [second? third?] the artificer. Build items of delayed area dispel magic and toss them like grenades. Runescarred Berserker gives antimagic field as a level 5 spell, so you can start tossing down heavy antimage BFC at level 7.

[ArcturusV]

Course, I'll throw out that if you're a long term planner or the like. Take Cleric. Use Bestow Curse to make a lot of cursed magical items (Rings, Amulets, etc) that make the wearer fail all concentration checks, and prevents removal of the time.

Keep spreading them around the dungeons of the world.

A few decades later, the mages of your world are failing against "Fighter with a readied action". :smallwink:

Course Bestow Curse used as a spell to hamper Concentration checks alone (should get a WHOLE lot more than just a -4 to such a curse, as the -4 applies to all skills, all saves, all attacks. Such a narrow curse should be closer to something like -80) will do a lot to bring back bad flashbacks to 2nd edition for your mages. Where you keep hearing people say "I ready an action to attack the wizard the moment he starts casting" and "Ooops, you lost your spell due to the attack".

[Eldariel]

Course, I'll throw out that if you're a long term planner or the like. Take Cleric. Use Bestow Curse to make a lot of cursed magical items (Rings, Amulets, etc) that make the wearer fail all concentration checks, and prevents removal of the time.

Keep spreading them around the dungeons of the world.

A few decades later, the mages of your world are failing against "Fighter with a readied action". :smallwink:

Course Bestow Curse used as a spell to hamper Concentration checks alone (should get a WHOLE lot more than just a -4 to such a curse, as the -4 applies to all skills, all saves, all attacks. Such a narrow curse should be closer to something like -80) will do a lot to bring back bad flashbacks to 2nd edition for your mages. Where you keep hearing people say "I ready an action to attack the wizard the moment he starts casting" and "Ooops, you lost your spell due to the attack".

Nah. They'll just move away, provoke, then cast when at a safe range. Or 5' step. Or Tumble. Or Quicken. Or whatever. 3.5 Mages don't even really need Concentration to cast safely outside extremely specialized control builds :smalltongue:

[angry_bear]

I think I'd go with something like a Psion. It's powerful, and has similarities to traditional casters, but with enough differences that, you could have the background of your character being he wants to prove his methods are the best. Challenging casters like wizards or sorcerers to duels etc. I don't have the important Psionic (Just the 3.0 version and complete Psionic atm) books on hand, but I'm sure someone could toss out some suggestions for a build and which powers to choose for the class.

[HunterOfJello]

Cleric with Initiate of Mystra and Persistent Anti-Magic field.

[Waker]

A decent build would be Warblade or Swordsage with a bit of Incarnate mixed in, then go into Occult Slayer. The initiator would give you some oomph, the Incarnate would give you some defensive options as well as some useful binds like Crystal Helm (to ignore incorporeal/ethereal attempts to run) while the Occult Slayer of course gives you a mix of offensive/defensive options aimed against spells.

[ArcturusV]

Nah, they'd still need Concentration because how it would go is:

Cleric: *curses*
Fighter: *readies a charge/ranged attack versus casting*
Mage: *tries to walk away or something. Starts casting, triggers attack, needs to roll Concentration against damage dealt, auto fails check, spell fizzles*

I don't even think Quickened would cover them as the readied action would still go off the moment they start casting, even if that casting is a free action. Unless you're talking about Quickening one spell to get foiled so your second as a standard can go off unmolested. In which case you just made mages half as effective over the course of a day by forcing them to burn off twice as many spells for the same result. Worse yet, burning up all their high level slots on Interrupt Bait.

I mean, it's not a bad basic option. Not going to do the job for you by itself. But hell, I've seen worse plans out there for shutting down a caster.

[eggynack]

Psh, you guys are working with small potatoes using these cursed items. What you should do, is that thing we came up with back in the AMF thread. You start selling those lead cones with shrink item cast on them, so that you can wear them as a hat which can block AMF's. The wizard will think that the cone in its natural form is just an ordinary cone, perfect for bypassing a traditional wizard stopping method. Instead of a regular cone though, the expanded form is really a cone with a long nail of some kind that extends all the way to the ground. That way, when the wizard gets near an AMF, he gets a giant nail going through his entire body. It's the kind of item that any wizard would desire with all their heart, and then they wear it, and you use AMF somehow. The foolish wizards will be destroyed by their hubris, the idea that they can stop any potential method of killing them.

[Eldariel]

*readies a charge/ranged attack versus casting*

You can't ready a Charge; it's a full-round action. Ranged attacks, sure, but that assumes you'll maintain a line of sight, a line of effect, the opponent isn't already warded against ranged attacks, you hit, and you're still giving up all your actions so you can't full attack, therefore minimizing your damage.

The fact that readying an action means giving up your full attack in general makes readying an action basically always strictly worse to just attacking past level 6; it's about as valid a strategy of fighting a caster as non-specialized counterspelling (that is, even trying to use the strategy is at best a zero-sum exchange, with many variables that can lead to it becoming a negative one, compared to just taking an action on your own turn; if you have sufficient action advantage and still decent chances of success, it might very rarely be worth it but those are extreme fringe cases).

[TuggyNE]

Psh, you guys are working with small potatoes using these cursed items. What you should do, is that thing we came up with back in the AMF thread. You start selling those lead cones with shrink item cast on them, so that you can wear them as a hat which can block AMF's. The wizard will think that the cone in its natural form is just an ordinary cone, perfect for bypassing a traditional wizard stopping method. Instead of a regular cone though, the expanded form is really a cone with a long nail of some kind that extends all the way to the ground. That way, when the wizard gets near an AMF, he gets a giant nail going through his entire body. It's the kind of item that any wizard would desire with all their heart, and then they wear it, and you use AMF somehow. The foolish wizards will be destroyed by their hubris, the idea that they can stop any potential method of killing them.

It seems like some sort of blue text should be here, but not sure where to put it!

[eggynack]

It seems like some sort of blue text should be here, but not sure where to put it!
Nah, it's not sarcasm. It's just silliness. I wouldn't expect anyone to do it, but it's a pretty sweet idea. There're a few problems with it, but nothing that's impossible to get around. I figure that the main barriers are the relatively short duration of shrink item, the wizard's ability to see the nail in the item's shrunken form, and the fact that the nail might not be an instant kill. The third thing is probably the real problem.

[Forrestfire]

My first instinct is to suggest playing a mage yourself, but it seems like that isn't the sort of character you want to play.

In any case, my personal favorite mage-killing build is simply going Fighter 20 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...). If only so you can say you're a straight class fighter. :smalltongue:

In case you don't feel like reading the guide, it boils down to using the lots of reach, the mage slayer line, and some lockdown feats to make the enemy unable to move or cast spells without getting interrupted.

Depending on the level of optimaztion of your DM's mages, it would probably work somewhere between "utter lockdown" and "enemy goes celerity-time stop-gate-kthxbye"

In any case, it should still probably be fairly strong and fun against most enemies.

[tiercel]

You can't ready a Charge; it's a full-round action. Ranged attacks, sure, but that assumes you'll maintain a line of sight, a line of effect, the opponent isn't already warded against ranged attacks, you hit, and you're still giving up all your actions so you can't full attack, therefore minimizing your damage.

The fact that readying an action means giving up your full attack in general makes readying an action basically always strictly worse to just attacking past level 6; it's about as valid a strategy of fighting a caster as non-specialized counterspelling (that is, even trying to use the strategy is at best a zero-sum exchange, with many variables that can lead to it becoming a negative one, compared to just taking an action on your own turn; if you have sufficient action advantage and still decent chances of success, it might very rarely be worth it but those are extreme fringe cases).

Partly it depends on action economy. If you are doing "heroic party vs lone BBEG" stereotype, trading your action for the BBEG's is win, even if the BBEG has a small number of trusted lieutenants.

Partly it depends on how many attacks you actually get. If I'm getting 4+ attacks on a full attack, it hurts a lot more to go to a readied action than if I only get 2-3 (especially if the later attacks are iterative).

Partly it depends on whether I can pack a wallop into my one hit. If I have a swift-activation equipment ability that gives significant +damage, if I'm a duskblade that can melee channel a spell (but not yet full channel), or if I have a significant ToB standard action strike, then readying an attack doesn't look bad at all.

Of course, if you are serious about lockdown you just get the party bard (or whoever) to ready silence, centered 1 inch from the BBEG's nose, on spellcasting. That's automatic counterspell for anything with a verbal component. (Or, if we are talking someone who actually uses Silent Spell or psi, then fog cloud works on anything that depends on LoS, wall spells work against anything that depend on LoE, etc.)

[Fable Wright]

Just skipping all the conversation up to this point: Have you considered Duskblade as a low-op option? I'm running one as an antimage in an E6 game, and it's fairly effective, though I have no clue how well it would scale to a level 13 game. However, some quick tactics:

1. Regroup. It's a third level spell, that you can Quickcast using the Duskblade ability. Here's how it works: Charge a mage, set off all of their defensive magics, and teleport the melee members of the party adjacent to you and the mage. A giant bear and a paladin, at least, can ruin a caster's day when they appear within full-attack range, quite possibly below you in the initiative order.

2. Investing in a few ranged spells. In the event of flying opponents while you're still groundbound, a volley or two of Scorching Rays can be damn handy, even without metamagic. (24d6 Fire damage to any opponent within 55ft for a swift and standard action could be rather handy, especially when you can divide it up when facing mooks.)

3. Ring of Silent Spells. Often overlooked gem; for a paltry investment of 2k, 1/day you can create a 20ft sphere of Silence that you can cast spells in. Outside of theoretical "this is how you counter this technique" builds, most spellcasters have no spells that they can cast without Verbal components. Combine with Drow Sign Language for communication with your party members, and this is, bar none, the most useful mage hunting item there is. Move into combat with a mage, and they can't 5ft step away and cast. They can't defensively cast. The only way to move out of range and cast spells is to take a move action and provoke attacks of opportunity from you and all the people you Regrouped in. Note that the 1-round duration of Arcane strike means that all the spells you channeled into your alpha strike on the mage, if that wasn't enough to kill them, will be applied to that AoO. If you need more uses, get more rings and cycle through them.

4. Blindfold of True Darkness. Displacement? No. Invisibility? No. Greater Mirror Image? No. It's not useful against everything, but it's pretty decent replacement for Pierce Magical Concealment.

5. Maneuvers. Just grab Wall of Blades with a feat, Iron Heart Surge with an Iron Heart Shirt, and you're decently set to parry No-Save Just Suck spells like Enervation and escape irritating status conditions or battlefield control effects. Relatedly, Anklets of Translocation are excellent, and Dimension is not a bad spell to pick up. Also, picking up a random White Raven maneuver and using Crown of the White Raven to pick up White Raven Tactics is handy.

[TuggyNE]

In any case, my personal favorite mage-killing build is simply going Fighter 20 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...). If only so you can say you're a straight class fighter. :smalltongue:

Tasha's hideous laughter 1/encounter as a free action! How can any mage survive that?

:smalltongue:

[Forrestfire]

Well obviously they need to breathe, right?
No, don't list a spell that makes it so you don't have to breathe.

[MirddinEmris]

Pierce Magical Protection doesn't work like you think it should. You pierce protections as a separate standard action, so you can't use it automatically on a full attack and in conjunction with other actions requiring some sort of action to employ.

As for readied action...it really depends - i remember playing ranger/fighter/occult slayer with a Collision Mage Bane bow, Weapon Spec + GWS + Ranged Weapon Mastery and using Manyshot with readied action (nothing of former is a precision damage) so the ability to deal double damage on a readied action to disrupt spellcasting from Occult Slayer was pretty nice. Then again - in place where i live most of DMs doesn't know how to play wizards to their full strength, otherwise my chances against them would be much worse.

If you really want to play a mage hunter - play wizard focused abjurer with specialization on counterspelling (i got one that has bonus to dispel twice his CL and can counterspell as immediate action + can steal enemies' buffs and know every spell cast in a 100ft radius) and defenses.

[Pickford]

What? That doesn't even come close to taking out wizards. You should build an anti-wizard wizard. Wizards are just about the only thing that can take out a wizard anyway, and I think the flavor of a wizard who kills wizards could be pretty cool. If you want to kill wizards as your main character goal, then you're going to need something pretty high up there in terms of power. You could also put together a cleric who's fighting a holy war against evil wizards. Not monks though. They look like they'd be good at fighting wizards, but they're not.

The level given was 13 yes?

A monk by 13th level has Spell Resistance of 23 (i.e. a 45% chance for any given SR: Yes spell to fail from an equal level caster)

And the monks saves are +8 all (+10 vs enchantments) base. That's +13 with a +5 cloak of resistance or vest of resistance; if one assumes at least +3 from each stat (courtesy of magic items, not unreasonable but also not the best possible bonuses) that's +16 resist all, +18 vs enchantment.

At level 13 a mage can cast 7th level spells.
DCs:
0th level: 10 + 0 + int mod
1st level: 10 + 1 + int mod
2nd level: 10 + 2 + int mod
3rd level: 10 + 3 + int mod
4th level: 10 + 4 + int mod
5th level: 10 + 5 + int mod
6th level: 10 + 6 + int mod
7th level: 10 + 7 + int mod

So the DCs range from 10-17 + int mod...now int mod on a fully optimized (i.e. only the hardest possible save) wizard would be +4 from an 18 starting int, +1.5 from putting three ability points (21 int, +5 total) +3 from headband of intellect (27 int, +8 total)

That puts the base DC at 18-25, subtract the base non-enchantment save of 16 and we're looking at having to beat a roll of 2-9.

Of course, this doesn't (yet) factor in spell focus (+1 to 3-10) or gsf (+1 to 4-11) but that's obviously specific to a single school, and so not terribly useful unless they guess right.

I think being able to simply ignore an opponents offensive actions in SR: Yes scenarios 50% of the time and their most potent Save: R/F/W in 55% of scenarios is well worth it.

This doesn't even take into account the ability to pick up Mage Slayer and that grappling is the number one melee tactic against spellcasters. (grappled creatures can't use somatic components and pinned creatures can't use verbal components at the pinner's option) Also Wizards tend to have lousy fort saves, and re-reading pierce magical protection that is just ridiculously powerful...wow.

The monk takes no downsides as all their abilities are Su not Sp as well.

If you want to be a magic user, I'd suggest a focus on Abjuration/Counterspelling and also suggest Spell Turning, available to both Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerors.

[eggynack]

I'm aware that monks get some alright wizard defenses. It's just not really sufficient. Wizards have tons of spells out there that don't target a save and bypass SR entirely. Many of them are actually quite powerful. I also view the monk option as significantly less powerful than the runescarred berserker option. Grappling is alright if the wizard doesn't have any defenses raised, but if I'm getting past the wizard's defenses I'd rather do something that kills him immediately rather than maybe trading options one to one.

[Pickford]

I'm aware that monks get some alright wizard defenses. It's just not really sufficient. Wizards have tons of spells out there that don't target a save and bypass SR entirely. Many of them are actually quite powerful. I also view the monk option as significantly less powerful than the runescarred berserker option. Grappling is alright if the wizard doesn't have any defenses raised, but if I'm getting past the wizard's defenses I'd rather do something that kills him immediately rather than maybe trading options one to one.

What defense does a 13th level Wizard (7th level spells, max) have that'll let them beat the touch attack to grapple?

Freedom of Movement? If they manage to cast it 'first' (before a grapple is initiated), unfortunately this requires somatic and verbal components and is a 4th level spell (so the silent/stilled version would be a 6th level slot)

But if they don't 'have' that particular spell, and did't memorize it that day...they're out of luck.

[eggynack]

What defense does a 13th level Wizard (7th level spells, max) have that'll let them beat the touch attack to grapple?

Freedom of Movement? If they manage to cast it 'first' (before a grapple is initiated), unfortunately this requires somatic and verbal components and is a 4th level spell (so the silent/stilled version would be a 6th level slot)

But if they don't 'have' that particular spell, and did't memorize it that day...they're out of luck.
I'd much rather cast heart of water than freedom of movement. You can cast it at the beginning of a day, and it'll last just about all day. Abrupt jaunt seems like it could work against that strategy too. There also must be something you could do with celerity. It's a pretty useful spell, and it's only 4th level. So, y'know, lotsa stuff. I could probably come up with more at some point. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's far from the hardest.

Edit: Nerve skitter could also help with winning the initiative war. It's a war they're pretty decent at winning.

[Forrestfire]

Celerity into a save or lose, or a no-save or lose, or a dimension door away so they can run away or just kill the monk.

However, we already had 21 pages (and locked) of this argument, so I'm just going to leave it with the fact that monks can do just fine against most wizard NPCs, since most sane DMs I know aren't going to throw stuff like that at players unless it's a boss fight.


In any case, I still prefer fighters for my low-tier anti-mages. :smalltongue:

[MirddinEmris]

What defense does a 13th level Wizard (7th level spells, max) have that'll let them beat the touch attack to grapple?

Freedom of Movement? If they manage to cast it 'first' (before a grapple is initiated), unfortunately this requires somatic and verbal components and is a 4th level spell (so the silent/stilled version would be a 6th level slot)

But if they don't 'have' that particular spell, and did't memorize it that day...they're out of luck.

1 - Mirror Image.
2 - Heart of Water (activation of FoM as swift)

And i don't see why should any wizard worth his salt refuse to memorize this spells, unless he banned this schools (which in case of Transumation is very stupid).

Also - Abrupt Jaunt.

[Waker]

What defense does a 13th level Wizard (7th level spells, max) have that'll let them beat the touch attack to grapple?

Freedom of Movement? If they manage to cast it 'first' (before a grapple is initiated), unfortunately this requires somatic and verbal components and is a 4th level spell (so the silent/stilled version would be a 6th level slot)

But if they don't 'have' that particular spell, and did't memorize it that day...they're out of luck.

Ring of Freedom of Movement (which can be cheaper if they make it themselves), Abrupt Jaunt, Overland Flight (13hr duration), Swift Etheralness and that's all I can list before I get lazy.

[DMVerdandi]

I think I'd go with something like a Psion. It's powerful, and has similarities to traditional casters, but with enough differences that, you could have the background of your character being he wants to prove his methods are the best. Challenging casters like wizards or sorcerers to duels etc. I don't have the important Psionic (Just the 3.0 version and complete Psionic atm) books on hand, but I'm sure someone could toss out some suggestions for a build and which powers to choose for the class.

Seconding. A psion would be awesome, but once again, I will suggest my favorite class (I will until the cows come home, it's so good.) The spell to power erudite.

Using the 11 UPD Iteration, that gives you a small number of spells/powers to use. I like to think of STP Erudites like superheroes, using a small amount of thematically corellated powers to kick butt.

Your theme is Anti-magic.
Being an erudite means you know magic, have studied it, but do not take it into your body, but duplicate the effects through the force of your own mental powers. Instead of Eldritch energy, you use psionic energy, staying away from the whole messy thing.

I regress.
Powers to gain:
Antimagic ray
(SO MUCH BETTER THAN ANTIMAGIC FIELD. You stay psionic/magical, while the enemy does not.)


Dispel magic + Greater Dispel
(Bread and butter. Gain from trapsmith class for level 1 and 3 versions.)

Wall of dispel Magic
(Good for catching people unawares. Using Extend power or Permanent Power makes this pretty crazy for defending oneself.)

Non-detection
(For good sneaking)


Otiluke's Supressing Field
(Shuts down a specific school of spells from being cast. An alternative to non-detection for shutting down divination, BUT can be recast multiple times to shut down other types of magic. VERY versatile
Also interesting, casting it so that Abjuration spells don't work. This is an effective way to shut down competing antimagic/dispels/barriers.)

Refusal
(Straight up barrier that keeps out spellcasters. Non-spellcasters can enter without a problem. Set up one of these 2 feet after greater dispel wall for the lulz.)

Analyze Dweomer
(A divination spell. One of many you should eventually purchase. This allows you to see and understand any magic that is in effect within visual range.)

Arcane sight
(A lesser version of such. A quick detect magic that can be made permanent. DO IT. Half of the anti-magic game is knowing who is a mage and who isn't. This will be helpful.)



With this small suite of powers, you should be able to effectively counter magic very well. Something you may want to do is boost your combat prowess through a transmutation spell like tenser's transformation, OR creating a Divine Power(Psionic), through research.


Primarily stick to Dispel Magic and it's Greater form.
They are low cost, will debuff anyone, and best of all, can be used to counterspell. Since Arcane sight will be up 24/7, you can see who is magical and then prepare actions to counterspell the mages.

Your allies pick up the pieces while you act as primary debuffer, and magic killer.

This kind of reminds me of scar from full metal alchemist.
using a perverted form of magical teachings to kill mages. Much better than that horrible line of witch hunter feats.

STP Erudite 13 Should get you where you want to go.

[Juntao112]

The level given was 13 yes?

A monk by 13th level has Spell Resistance of 23 (i.e. a 45% chance for any given SR: Yes spell to fail from an equal level caster)

And the monks saves are +8 all (+10 vs enchantments) base. That's +13 with a +5 cloak of resistance or vest of resistance; if one assumes at least +3 from each stat (courtesy of magic items, not unreasonable but also not the best possible bonuses) that's +16 resist all, +18 vs enchantment.

At level 13 a mage can cast 7th level spells.
DCs:
0th level: 10 + 0 + int mod
1st level: 10 + 1 + int mod
2nd level: 10 + 2 + int mod
3rd level: 10 + 3 + int mod
4th level: 10 + 4 + int mod
5th level: 10 + 5 + int mod
6th level: 10 + 6 + int mod
7th level: 10 + 7 + int mod

So the DCs range from 10-17 + int mod...now int mod on a fully optimized (i.e. only the hardest possible save) wizard would be +4 from an 18 starting int, +1.5 from putting three ability points (21 int, +5 total) +3 from headband of intellect (27 int, +8 total)

That puts the base DC at 18-25, subtract the base non-enchantment save of 16 and we're looking at having to beat a roll of 2-9.

Of course, this doesn't (yet) factor in spell focus (+1 to 3-10) or gsf (+1 to 4-11) but that's obviously specific to a single school, and so not terribly useful unless they guess right.

I think being able to simply ignore an opponents offensive actions in SR: Yes scenarios 50% of the time and their most potent Save: R/F/W in 55% of scenarios is well worth it.

This doesn't even take into account the ability to pick up Mage Slayer and that grappling is the number one melee tactic against spellcasters. (grappled creatures can't use somatic components and pinned creatures can't use verbal components at the pinner's option) Also Wizards tend to have lousy fort saves, and re-reading pierce magical protection that is just ridiculously powerful...wow.

The monk takes no downsides as all their abilities are Su not Sp as well.

If you want to be a magic user, I'd suggest a focus on Abjuration/Counterspelling and also suggest Spell Turning, available to both Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerors.

You make the monk, Pickford, and I'll make the mage. :smallsmile:

[MirddinEmris]

Best Antimagic is 10 level of Master Specialist of abjuration (for ability to cast personal and emanation spells as touch + 1 level of Archmage (for Arcane Reach) = no attack, no save, no SR, just a 10 feet of antimagic emanating from mage in this case even tin hat trick wouldn't save him (but will effectively imprison him for your convenience.

[Spuddles]

Monks have fairly decent defensive options vs typical magical attacks (slow, fireball, phantasmal killer, etc.), but they lack much offensive prowess, especially against other melee opponents.

I would go psion6/(illithid) slayer 7. That gets you 12th level manifesting in full plate with a BAB of +10. You'll be able to hold your own vs. giants and demons as well as deal with beholders and mind flayers.


What defense does a 13th level Wizard (7th level spells, max) have that'll let them beat the touch attack to grapple?

Freedom of Movement? If they manage to cast it 'first' (before a grapple is initiated), unfortunately this requires somatic and verbal components and is a 4th level spell (so the silent/stilled version would be a 6th level slot)

But if they don't 'have' that particular spell, and did't memorize it that day...they're out of luck.

Heart of Water....

[Juntao112]

I'm bored. Here's a mage (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=475567) I had lying around, coincidentally of 13th level. Come all ye mage slayers! Start off with 32 point buy and let's see how well it goes!

[Eldariel]

Antimagic ray
(SO MUCH BETTER THAN ANTIMAGIC FIELD. You stay psionic/magical, while the enemy does not.)

That's...not good. That's horrible. Look, Antimagic Ray has:
- Ranged Touch Attack to hit (there are spells that just flatout deflect all Rays)
- Failed Will-save to work (as we touched upon earlier, Will-save is the best save for most casters)
- Doesn't stop e.g. Spell Completion items or such.

Overall, you should've just Disintegrated, Feebleminded or something; if Antimagic Ray works you could've killed/neutralized the enemy instead if you used a good spell. The whole point of AMF is that there are no rolls against it; you have to avoid it entirely to not be affected. This is why e.g. AMF modified by Mastery of Shaping is reasonable, but still requires getting next to the caster.


Monks have fairly decent defensive options vs typical magical attacks (slow, fireball, phantasmal killer, etc.), but they lack much offensive prowess, especially against other melee opponents.

Assay Resistance [Spell Compendium] or Spell Penetration-line (non-core or core) plus caster level boosts (Archmage, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, stuff mages want anyways) makes Monks' spell resistance a joke, Core or not Core. The Spell Resistance needs to be 20+level to be relevant, insofar as to burn actions to counteract.

And Stunning Fist doesn't work against Crit-immunes; e.g. Greater Fortifications, Heart of X-line, Polymorph (Any Object) and oh-so-many other spells make the Wizard permanently immune to Critical Hits so he doesn't even need to Fort-save. Plus, y'know, Contingency+Dimension Door/Abrupt Jaunt/Celerity/etc. are quite adept at making it hard to get next to a Wizard. Anticipate Teleport means for hours/level teleportation doesn't work either. So basically, melee range solutions just don't work. That's a large part of why Monk can never be useful in this situation.

And yeah, Heart of Water = Freedom of Movement. Or Ring. Or Abrupt Jaunt. Or Anklets of Translocation. Or Benign Transposition. Or whatever. Grapple is an obsolete tactic by level 13; melee brutes are too big/strong to be grappled and casters are all immune, don't bother unless you can project an Anti-Magic Field, fly in said anti-magic field and be unaffected.

[Spuddles]

Assay Resistance [Spell Compendium] or Spell Penetration-line (non-core or core) plus caster level boosts (Archmage, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, stuff mages want anyways) makes Monks' spell resistance a joke, Core or not Core. The Spell Resistance needs to be 20+level to be relevant, insofar as to burn actions to counteract.

Pickford showed last page that monks are making their saves on rolls of 6 to 9. That's pretty good. And you also have to roll vs. SR to know a creature has SR. So SR is good for at least the opening combat.

And you're also assuming every caster is a wizard that GitP put together and not, say, a beholder, an illithid, a dragon, a rakshasa, a demon or devil, or an NPC from a module. Against those, monks fare fairly well, as far as not getting feared/dominated/petrified/turned inside out.

In my experience, especially when WBL really kicks in, monks are actually fairly good at not getting hurt, as far as "mundanes" in D&D go. The problem, of course, is that mage-slaying involves, well slaying.


And Stunning Fist doesn't work against Crit-immunes; e.g. Greater Fortifications, Heart of X-line, Polymorph (Any Object) and oh-so-many other spells make the Wizard permanently immune to Critical Hits so he doesn't even need to Fort-save. Plus, y'know, Contingency+Dimension Door/Abrupt Jaunt/Celerity/etc. are quite adept at making it hard to get next to a Wizard. Anticipate Teleport means for hours/level teleportation doesn't work either. So basically, melee range solutions just don't work. That's a large part of why Monk can never be useful in this situation.

And yeah, Heart of Water = Freedom of Movement. Or Ring. Or Abrupt Jaunt. Or Anklets of Translocation. Or Benign Transposition. Or whatever. Grapple is an obsolete tactic by level 13; melee brutes are too big/strong to be grappled and casters are all immune, don't bother unless you can project an Anti-Magic Field, fly in said anti-magic field and be unaffected.

It's really great you went through the trouble of typing out a longer version of:

but they lack much offensive prowess, especially against other melee opponents.

:smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Pickford showed last page that monks are making their saves on rolls of 6 to 9. That's pretty good. And you also have to roll vs. SR to know a creature has SR. So SR is good for at least the opening combat.

And you're also assuming every caster is a wizard that GitP put together and not, say, a beholder, an illithid, a dragon, a rakshasa, a demon or devil, or an NPC from a module. Against those, monks fare fairly well, as far as not getting feared/dominated/petrified/turned inside out.

In my experience, especially when WBL really kicks in, monks are actually fairly good at not getting hurt, as far as "mundanes" in D&D go. The problem, of course, is that mage-slaying involves, well slaying.

My point was that the Spell Resistance they get isn't worth jack ****. The saves are okay. There are classes with better saves but Monks can make do, though their MAD tends to undermine it somewhat (especially since they need Strength to actually do anything).

But yeah, casters can work past or through saves, be it by brute force or cunning, so while good saves help, they don't make one immune or anything.

[ahenobarbi]

Assay Resistance [Spell Compendium] or Spell Penetration-line (non-core or core) plus caster level boosts (Archmage, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, stuff mages want anyways) makes Monks' spell resistance a joke, Core or not Core. The Spell Resistance needs to be 20+level to be relevant, insofar as to burn actions to counteract.

And needs to be rare. If enemies with high (including infinite, like with golems) SR are common casters will use spells that don't care about SR.

[Spuddles]

My point was that the Spell Resistance they get isn't worth jack ****. The saves are okay. There are classes with better saves but Monks can make do, though their MAD tends to undermine it somewhat (especially since they need Strength to actually do anything).

But yeah, casters can work past or through saves, be it by brute force or cunning, so while good saves help, they don't make one immune or anything.

Just looking through monsters of CR 11 to 15, CL on monster SLAs ranges from 5 (mature dragons) to 20 (storm giant), with most around 12 to 18. That means monk SR of 23 gives you 55% to 20% protection. It also offers similar protection vs. a caster with spell penetration. The save DCs are quite low, most low enough that the monk only fails on a roll of 2 or 3. When fighting monstrous spellcasters, the monk is virtually immune to their SLAs.

So when it comes to getting blasted by the monsters of D&D, monks are actually doing pretty well.

[eggynack]

Just looking through monsters of CR 11 to 15, CL on monster SLAs ranges from 5 (mature dragons) to 20 (storm giant), with most around 12 to 18. That means monk SR of 23 gives you 55% to 20% protection. It also offers similar protection vs. a caster with spell penetration. The save DCs are quite low, most low enough that the monk only fails on a roll of 2 or 3. When fighting monstrous spellcasters, the monk is virtually immune to their SLAs.

So when it comes to getting blasted by the monsters of D&D, monks are actually doing pretty well.
This feels like the kind of argument that is pointless at best, and inaccurate at worst. On the pointless side of things, this monk isn't trying to kill monsters with SLA's. He's trying to kill wizards. Wizards, as has been noted, have many many ways around spell resistance. If this guy wants to run around killing wizards, he's going to need to be able to kill wizards, which is something I doubt he can do. We've given tons of reasons for that. On the inaccurate side of things, sometimes monsters, like wizards, have spells that just skip SR entirely. Take the glabrezu, for instance. He can cast reverse gravity, and that seems to be it for the monk. Flight bypasses it, but there're probably other examples out there if you take the time to look. The lammasu mostly just has buffs that he casts on himself, for example, which is also generally true of the celestial charger.

I think the real point here is the first one though. This monk is fighting wizards, not wizard substitutes. A monk fighting against monsters has other problems, especially if he wants to pour all of his resources into grappling and mage slayer feats. Back to the glabrezu example, those things have a grapple mod of +30, and that's not a particularly aberrant example. You mentioned storm giants, but those guys have permanent freedom of movement, with a +36 grapple mod if you dispel that. Your monk is built to fight wizards, but doesn't do it very well. He's not built to fight monsters, so I don't think he can do that very well either.

[Ken Adams]

I have been doing a little home work on the anti-mage character. I really like what the mage slayer feats offer, and i like the mage slayer PrC now comes the question if i dare ask it??? i seen the heated convo last time i asked a question but here goes, what class shouls i take untill i take the mage slayer PrC should i take duskblade/warmage/spelltheif....i personaly like warmage because i get to put on armor and not take spell fail.


The DM that is running my group is good he just can be limiting and takes the alignments seriously.......worst thing he ever did was take my pally powers away with no warning and now he wont let me play LG chars anymore, so i mostly play CG now.

[Fable Wright]

I have been doing a little home work on the anti-mage character. I really like what the mage slayer feats offer, and i like the mage slayer PrC now comes the question if i dare ask it??? i seen the heated convo last time i asked a question but here goes, what class shouls i take untill i take the mage slayer PrC should i take duskblade/warmage/spelltheif....i personaly like warmage because i get to put on armor and not take spell fail.

All three of those classes allow you to wear Light armor with no spell failure chance. Duskblade also offers spellcasting with shields and Medium armor.

[Psyren]

Your party could use an arcanist anyway, so i say Master Specialist Abjurer into Iot7FV as your anti-mage, perhaps even with some Abjurant Champion. Powerful, thematic, can deal with most spells easily, and when you're not fighting casters it's still useful.


Have you considered using the monk?

I should hope not :smallwink:

[Svata]

for as long as you can hold your breath you can run around underground, free from line of effect and basically untargetable. Find some means of getting Tremorsense and go full Graboid on the casters.

Can I sig this?

[Pickford]

1 - Mirror Image.
2 - Heart of Water (activation of FoM as swift)

And i don't see why should any wizard worth his salt refuse to memorize this spells, unless he banned this schools (which in case of Transumation is very stupid).

Also - Abrupt Jaunt.

I believe the 'Pierce Magical Concealment' handily ruins mirror image.

edit:
Juntao112:

I'm bored. Here's a mage I had lying around, coincidentally of 13th level. Come all ye mage slayers! Start off with 32 point buy and let's see how well it goes!

I'm confused, the sheet says Sorceror, but you gave it a spellbook. ???

Here's a practice 32pb monk though:


Tad (ability point gains: 4th (Wis), 8th (Wis), 12th (Wis)
Str 16 (+3), Dex 15 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 8 (-1), Wis 20 (+5), Cha 8 (-1)

Feats:
Human: Blind-Fight
1st: Improved Grapple
1st Monk: Stunning Fist
2nd Monk: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
6th: Mage Slayer
6th Monk: Improved Disarm
9th: Pierce Magical Protection
12th: Pierce Magical Concealment

Skills: 64
Spellcraft 2
Tumble 15
Balance 15
Listen 15
Spot 15

Equipment: (110k):
Monk's Belt (13k)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16k)
Vest of Resistance +5 (25k)
Bracers of Dawn (26k)
Circlet of Blasting, Major (23,750gp)
Brooch of Shielding (1,500gp)
Bag of Tricks (rust) (3k)

[ahenobarbi]

Best Antimagic is 10 level of Master Specialist of abjuration (for ability to cast personal and emanation spells as touch + 1 level of Archmage (for Arcane Reach) = no attack, no save, no SR, just a 10 feet of antimagic emanating from mage in this case even tin hat trick wouldn't save him (but will effectively imprison him for your convenience.

Actually you must make touch attack, so caster can defend against this in quite a few ways (miss chances, touch AC pumping, immediate actions).

[eggynack]

I believe the 'Pierce Magical Concealment' handily ruins mirror image.
Sure. What monk in their right mind would lose precious caster level for that ability? More seriously though, heart of water is the significantly more important part of the wizard's power. It kinda shuts down grapple pretty hard, and that's a big cornerstone of your monk build. It seems clear that a reasonably built caster would be able to defeat a monk, although one that is poorly built could possibly die to the monk's defenses. It doesn't seem relevant in discussing actual wizard abilities, though it might be alright if the DM doesn't toss out no save effects and cast heart of water every morning. Also, does pierce magical concealment stop greater mirror image? the feat specifically talks about its ability to identify the true target after a mirror image, but greater mirror image might technically be a different spell for this purpose. It seems especially possible because, while all of the other aspects of the feat talk about general things it bypasses, that part is incredibly specific. I'm kinda on the fence on the issue, and it could be a real problem for the monk.

[Pickford]

Sure. What monk in their right mind would lose precious caster level for that ability? More seriously though, heart of water is the significantly more important part of the wizard's power. It kinda shuts down grapple pretty hard, and that's a big cornerstone of your monk build. It seems clear that a reasonably built caster would be able to defeat a monk, although one that is poorly built could possibly die to the monk's defenses. It doesn't seem relevant in discussing actual wizard abilities, though it might be alright if the DM doesn't toss out no save effects and cast heart of water every morning. Also, does pierce magical concealment stop greater mirror image? the feat specifically talks about its ability to identify the true target after a mirror image, but greater mirror image might technically be a different spell for this purpose. It seems especially possible because, while all of the other aspects of the feat talk about general things it bypasses, that part is incredibly specific. I'm kinda on the fence on the issue, and it could be a real problem for the monk.

I mean, I'd say yes as unless otherwise specified any greater/lesser/mass is just a variation on the theme.

[Juntao112]

Juntao112:


I'm confused, the sheet says Sorceror, but you gave it a spellbook. ???
All warfare is based on deception.


Here's a practice 32pb monk though:


Tad (ability point gains: 4th (Wis), 8th (Wis), 12th (Wis)
Str 16 (+3), Dex 15 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 8 (-1), Wis 20 (+5), Cha 8 (-1)

Feats:
Human: Blind-Fight
1st: Improved Grapple
1st Monk: Stunning Fist
2nd Monk: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
6th: Mage Slayer
6th Monk: Improved Disarm
9th: Pierce Magical Protection
12th: Pierce Magical Concealment

Skills: 64
Spellcraft 2
Tumble 15
Balance 15
Listen 15
Spot 15

Equipment: (110k):
Monk's Belt (13k)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16k)
Vest of Resistance +5 (25k)
Bracers of Dawn (26k)
Circlet of Blasting, Major (23,750gp)
Brooch of Shielding (1,500gp)
Bag of Tricks (rust) (3k)
So how does the assassination against Anya (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=475567) begin?

[Carth]

The DM that is running my group is good he just can be limiting and takes the alignments seriously.......worst thing he ever did was take my pally powers away with no warning and now he wont let me play LG chars anymore, so i mostly play CG now.

Have you considered paladin of freedom, from Unearth Arcana, then? :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Why are we using a sorcerer exactly? A wizard is significantly more powerful, and generally the comparison point we're using. The real problem that I see with the monk is that his ranged capacity is a bit limited. They have the bracers, and the circlet, but I don't think that's really enough to take out a wizard with spells and flight. Just as a quick damage check, it's 40 damage from the circlet, and 54 damage from the bracer, for a total of 94 damage over 5 rounds. A wizard with 14 constitution will have 60 HP, which gives the wizard two hits until he dies, however an amulet of health is a pretty common item on the low HP wizard. A +4 amulet puts the wizard up to 86 HP, and a +6 amulet puts him to 100 HP. This puts a wizard with overland flight outside of the range of the monk's capabilities.

This is obviously before any additional defenses that the wizard wishes to raise, which are potentially both numerous and diverse. This is also before taking into account offensive stuff, which has a similarly high potential. In any case, you will likely have to increase the monk's capacity to attack at range with some consistency if you want to have a shot. One strategy that might be highly effective against this monk is something like a solid fog. Pierce magical concealment seems to get past the concealment part of it, but you're basically locking down the monk's capacity to go anywhere for a good while. Using some sort of wall, like perhaps a wall of stone, could grant the wizard additional protection. I'll have to think up some more specific strategies though. Notably, the only real threat that I see from the monk are the two ray shooting items, though pierce magical concealment certainly makes them more of a threat.

Actually, looking at Anya more closely, she seems to utilize several of the strategies I brought up. There are a few problems with the sheet, like the fact that she has both fireball and scorching ray, but there's nothing that some editing can't solve. Touching up the spell list a little might be the quickest method for solution finding.

Edit: Also, she appears to be limited to core, while the monk is taking from many sources. A wizard is additionally more likely to have things like heart of water on his list, especially because it's not a very spammable spell.

[georgie_leech]

I think the point might have been that it was handy, a primary spellcaster, and not specifically designed to counter mage-hunters or monks so Pickford couldn't cry foul.

[eggynack]

I think the point might have been that it was handy, a primary spellcaster, and not specifically designed to counter mage-hunters or monks so Pickford couldn't cry foul.
I understand that. I just never really put together casters without heart of water. This should be especially obvious, given the fact that I bring up the spell in just about every possible situation ever. this is doubly true at 13th level where 3rd level spells are both plentiful and not too useful. Heart of water is one of the best ways to use those slots. I also noticed that the list has magic missile in addition to all of the other damage spells I mentioned. It seems somewhat excessive on a sorcerer.

[Juntao112]

I understand that. I just never really put together casters without heart of water. This should be especially obvious, given the fact that I bring up the spell in just about every possible situation ever.

You are, of course, free to make your own.

[eggynack]

You are, of course, free to make your own.
Yeah, alright. I just started putting one together. It should be at least halfway decent, I think.

[Juntao112]

This should be fun.

[eggynack]

This should be fun.
Indeed so. I think this is the first wizard I've put together. It should be reasonably good though.

[eggynack]

I just noticed that Treantmonk's guide for wizards (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) has some basically complete characters sitting right there. Take the 10th and 15th level builds, average them out a bit, and replace one of the 3rd level spell slots with heart of water, and you'd get about what I'd do. It shouldn't take too much work adapting that wizard for our use. I'll probably keep poking away at my wizard sheet, just cause, but this is a pretty neutral build.

[Snails]

A Monk is actually pretty good.

He gets SR at 13th level, and he has good saves. He can DDoor to sidestep the usual anti-meleeist tactics. Stun is pretty brutal against Wizards, and Grapple is none too shabby either.

No, the Monk is not a great choice in terms of raw power, but he can come at the mage in ways most mages are less prepared to defend against. The fact that you sort of suck at meleeing may not be so important.

You will, of course, want tricks like Blind-fighting feat, and an item to provide a Silence effect.

Perhaps an item that provides Blink. Mage puts up a Wall of Stone to cut you off? Move right through it. Mage puts up a Wall of Force? Move through the stone wall of the corridor at the edge. Mage wants to waste you with a targeted spell? 50% miss chance.

[inuyasha]

anti-wizard? a well equipped frenzied berzerker...

P.S. seriously works, a co-player of mine had a rediculously optimised one and decided to kill the uber lich...solo...one shot

[eggynack]

A Monk is actually pretty good.

He gets SR at 13th level, and he has good saves. He can DDoor to sidestep the usual anti-meleeist tactics. Stun is pretty brutal against Wizards, and Grapple is none too shabby either.

No, the Monk is not a great choice in terms of raw power, but he can come at the mage in ways most mages are less prepared to defend against. The fact that you sort of suck at meleeing may not be so important.

You will, of course, want tricks like Blind-fighting feat, and an item to provide a Silence effect.

Perhaps an item that provides Blink. Mage puts up a Wall of Stone to cut you off? Move right through it. Mage puts up a Wall of Force? Move through the stone wall of the corridor at the edge. Mage wants to waste you with a targeted spell? 50% miss chance.
There's really quite a lot of ways around the strategies you employ. Grapple is easily stopped by a freedom of movement effect, of whom heart of water is the best. Solid fogs seem to stop you just as easily, even while blinking. SR and high saves are pretty trivial to get around with spells that aren't effected by those things. The spell list I linked to has both solid fog and choking cobwebs on it, and I don't really see a way for your monk to get around that, especially with the wizard under the effects of overland flight. It just feels like the monk doesn't have anything capable of threatening a wizard, and the wizard has tons of ways of threatening a monk.

[Juntao112]

A Monk is actually pretty good.

He gets SR at 13th level, and he has good saves. He can DDoor to sidestep the usual anti-meleeist tactics. Stun is pretty brutal against Wizards, and Grapple is none too shabby either.

No, the Monk is not a great choice in terms of raw power, but he can come at the mage in ways most mages are less prepared to defend against. The fact that you sort of suck at meleeing may not be so important.

You will, of course, want tricks like Blind-fighting feat, and an item to provide a Silence effect.

Perhaps an item that provides Blink. Mage puts up a Wall of Stone to cut you off? Move right through it. Mage puts up a Wall of Force? Move through the stone wall of the corridor at the edge. Mage wants to waste you with a targeted spell? 50% miss chance.

Make your monk, and declare your opening move.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anti-mage depends a lot on on the level of the mage and the anti-mage. It also depends a lot on how paranoid and optimized the mage is. Level 20 high op wizard, for example, is virtually impossible to kill.

Lower level, wyrmling mercury dragon monks, rogues, or factotums with the right feats can actually do surprisingly well. Most things really suck at fighting enemies who hit and run with 400 feet per round movement speeds.

There is also Factotum 10 with Sniper's Shot, True Strike, and a Longbow.

Spend an IP on True Strike, spend an IP on Sniper's Shot (no range limit on sneak attack), an IP on Int to Damage, an IP on Int to Attack, and the rest of your IP on Cunning Strike. Take Font of Inspiration for most of your feats. Perhaps use Fly to be a thousand feet up in the air above your enemy.

At level 10 and with 22 Int (max before magic items) and 6 Font of Inspiration 4 feats (+2 from Flaws) gives you 26 IP total. Three spent on the spells, one spent on Attack, and one spent on Damage leaves you with 21 points to spend on Cunning Strike.

The end result is an attack at +6 to your normal attack bonus and dealing 1d8+21d6+6 damage and fired from a thousand feet away. Or an average of 84 damage. If you bother to spend gold on it that can be pushed significantly higher.

You might also want to invest in an arrow with a Craft Contingent Antimagic Field on it (triggering condition being "is fired").

Get a Distance bow (+1 ability) and your range doubles to 2,000 feet.

The only problem is if your DM requires a Spot check (one shouldn't be required unless the Mage is intentionally hiding or the like), because you get -100 for every thousand feet away from the target you are.

A level 10 wizard has a max of around 114 HP to drop them to -10 (using FMI for Int to HP or a maxed Con and all HP rolls maxed), average is around 50-60. The AMF arrow will prevent any Craft Contingent or Contingency from triggering, will shut down buffs like Blink, Mage armor, etc., will remove magical items from play, and will be able to fly straight through things like Wind Wall (AMF dropping it in passage). Absent Foresight (which a level 10 character is unlikely to have up) or Dire Tortoise form then they are surprised and thus can't use Celerity to interrupt.

Your players and/or DM might get pissed if you are sniping them from two thousand feet away with no notice though.

The best part is that said Factotum is great in close as well.

[ahenobarbi]

Anti-mage depends a lot on on the level of the mage and the anti-mage. It also depends a lot on how paranoid and optimized the mage is. Level 20 high op wizard, for example, is virtually impossible to kill.

Well in Faerun you can always convince/ice assassin Mystra to cut of your target from magic to deny spell casting. In the same round you could wish dead magic zone around the wizard & try to one-shot him (should be possible with targets' spell casting removed and in dead magic zone).


You might also want to invest in an arrow with a Craft Contingent Antimagic Field on it (triggering condition being "is fired").

There are two three problems with that:

You can craft contingent spell only on creatures (you can make the arrow an construct and it will work)
Arrows get destroyed after firing (possible to work-around: make your to-hit really low (so it may survive) and fire a lot of arrows).
Lead hat + contingency (get me away the **** out of here when hat unshrinks)

[Emperor Tippy]

Well in Faerun you can always convince/ice assassin Mystra to cut of your target from magic to deny spell casting. In the same round you could wish dead magic zone around the wizard & try to one-shot him (should be possible with targets' spell casting removed and in dead magic zone).
Yes, convince a greater deity to off your target is almost always a viable plan. :smallwink:


There are two three problems with that:

You can craft contingent spell only on creatures (you can make the arrow an construct and it will work)
Animated Object. Or just craft a magical trap. Either works.


Arrows get destroyed after firing (possible to work-around: make your to-hit really low (so it may survive) and fire a lot of arrows).
Arrows get destroyed after hitting. Otherwise they would do no damage. A magical arrow that misses has a 50% chance of being recoverable.

Lead hat + contingency (get me away the **** out of here when hat unshrinks)

That one works.

[eggynack]

Lead hat + contingency (get me away the **** out of here when hat unshrinks)

Yes, but how can you be sure that the lead hat is a normal one, or the type with a giant nail running down the middle? You have planted the seeds of your own demise.

There really needs to be some sort of joking but not sarcastically color. I mean, it's clearly not sarcasm, but it's also not really serious. Maybe just a :smallcool: or something? It just feels inadequate somehow.

[ahenobarbi]

Yes, convince a greater deity to off your target is almost always a viable plan. :smallwink:

It's the most reliable plan I could come up with. Except stuff like time-travel to past. Because if you kill level 20 wizard before he got level 20 you kill someone who might have became a 20th level wizard, not 20th level wizard.


That one works.

:smallbiggrin:


Yes, but how can you be sure that the lead hat is a normal one, or the type with a giant nail running down the middle? You have planted the seeds of your own demise.

There really needs to be some sort of joking but not sarcastically color. I mean, it's clearly not sarcasm, but it's also not really serious. Maybe just a :smallcool: or something? It just feels inadequate somehow.

Because you made it yourself? If I were a paranoid Wizard 20 I probably wouldn't use anything I didn't create meself.

[eggynack]

Because you made it yourself? If I were a paranoid Wizard 20 I probably wouldn't use anything I didn't create meself.
Of course, of course. But how do you know that the monk, who in this case is optimized for stealth, didn't swap them out when you weren't looking. You think you're wearing a normal anti-magic cone, when fwazhoom! Nail through the head. There is literally no defense that the wizard could possibly prepare against such an attack. It's a plan defined equally by its infallibility, and its lethality.

[Arundel]

This thread reminded me that this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254630) was a thing a while back.

[Kazyan]

Obvious counter to the hat is to cast Arrowsplit or have a Splitting bow, and have one of the split arrow attacks target the hat. Boom, hatshot.

[Zombulian]

Anti-mage depends a lot on on the level of the mage and the anti-mage. It also depends a lot on how paranoid and optimized the mage is. Level 20 high op wizard, for example, is virtually impossible to kill.

Lower level, wyrmling mercury dragon monks, rogues, or factotums with the right feats can actually do surprisingly well. Most things really suck at fighting enemies who hit and run with 400 feet per round movement speeds.

There is also Factotum 10 with Sniper's Shot, True Strike, and a Longbow.

Spend an IP on True Strike, spend an IP on Sniper's Shot (no range limit on sneak attack), an IP on Int to Damage, an IP on Int to Attack, and the rest of your IP on Cunning Strike. Take Font of Inspiration for most of your feats. Perhaps use Fly to be a thousand feet up in the air above your enemy.

At level 10 and with 22 Int (max before magic items) and 6 Font of Inspiration 4 feats (+2 from Flaws) gives you 26 IP total. Three spent on the spells, one spent on Attack, and one spent on Damage leaves you with 21 points to spend on Cunning Strike.

The end result is an attack at +6 to your normal attack bonus and dealing 1d8+21d6+6 damage and fired from a thousand feet away. Or an average of 84 damage. If you bother to spend gold on it that can be pushed significantly higher.

You might also want to invest in an arrow with a Craft Contingent Antimagic Field on it (triggering condition being "is fired").

Get a Distance bow (+1 ability) and your range doubles to 2,000 feet.

The only problem is if your DM requires a Spot check (one shouldn't be required unless the Mage is intentionally hiding or the like), because you get -100 for every thousand feet away from the target you are.

A level 10 wizard has a max of around 114 HP to drop them to -10 (using FMI for Int to HP or a maxed Con and all HP rolls maxed), average is around 50-60. The AMF arrow will prevent any Craft Contingent or Contingency from triggering, will shut down buffs like Blink, Mage armor, etc., will remove magical items from play, and will be able to fly straight through things like Wind Wall (AMF dropping it in passage). Absent Foresight (which a level 10 character is unlikely to have up) or Dire Tortoise form then they are surprised and thus can't use Celerity to interrupt.

Your players and/or DM might get pissed if you are sniping them from two thousand feet away with no notice though.

The best part is that said Factotum is great in close as well.

The general moral of the story here is that Tippy loves Factotums. As we all should.

[MirddinEmris]

Actually you must make touch attack, so caster can defend against this in quite a few ways (miss chances, touch AC pumping, immediate actions).

Oh, right, touch attack. Still, better than Antimagic Ray, which needs same touch attack (and it is a ray, so Ray Deflection applies) and Will save and SR.

[Emperor Tippy]

The general moral of the story here is that Tippy loves Factotums. As we all should.

Yep, Factotums, Wizards, Psions, and Swordsage are probably my faviorte classes. Although I do have a soft spot for Monks.

Factotum makes the best (non full caster) assassins in the game though, hands down.

Especially when you hit level 19 and have 10 iterations of Font of Inspiration for 63 IP.

Spend 4 IP for a Rogue's Sneak Attack, 4 IP for a Psychic Rogue's Sneak Attack, and 4 IP for a Ninja's Sudden Strike. That is +27d6. Now True Strike, Sniper's Shot, Int to Attack, and Int to Damage for another 4 IP. Then the last 47 IP on Cunning Strike. That is 74d6 in Sneak Attack damage (76d6 with Assassins Stance).

Or spend the 51 IP on Cunning Surge 17 times. For seventeen attacks at +27d6 (29d6 with Assassins Stance) in one standard action. Get a Collision weapon along with Craven and you are at (29d6+24) damage on each of those full AB attacks. Get Wraithstrike and those are also all touch attacks. Or have AMF up and bring down all magical defenses.

Incidentally, average damage on each of those strikes is 125 or so (requiring massive damage saves as well).

[Pickford]

All warfare is based on deception.


So how does the assassination against Anya (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=475567) begin?

edit 2:
I take it to mean this isn't a typo, Anya really is a Sorc (for judging purposes).

I dunno, this Monk isn't evil ;)

I kid. I kid.

I mean, can we have them in a bar and they get into a philosophical difference about the ethics of high stakes brewing?

Edit: So Anya and Whatever I named that guy are sitting next to each other at the bar, both drunk out of their minds and words have been exchanged so that hostile intent is evident!

Roll initiative.

[Juntao112]

If you would like.

I believe white gets first move. What's your opening?

[Pickford]

If you would like.

I believe white gets first move. What's your opening?

Wait, so you're just ceding the initiative? Or did I misread that?

[Juntao112]

I am perfectly comfortable with you going first.

By the way, here are the Cityscape rules for drunkeness on page 44. You may find them useful when determining exactly how drunk our characters are.

Getting Drunk: In D&D, social drinking has no adverse consequences.
Inebriation matters only when PCs are actively trying to
achieve that state, perhaps as part of a drinking game. Thus, these
rules are intentionally simple (and far kinder than real life).
A PC can safely consume a number of drinks per hour (a “drink”
counts as a tankard of ale, a glass of wine, or a shot of the hard
stuff) equal to one-half his Constitution score. One drink’s effects
wear off in an hour. Whenever a character imbibes more than that
limit, he must attempt a Constitution check. The DC starts at 15
and increases by 1 per additional drink. PCs with saving throw
bonuses against poison (such as dwarves) can apply them to this
Constitution check.
Each failed Constitution check imposes a cumulative –1 penalty
to Dexterity and Wisdom (but does not actually reduce those ability
scores) and a cumulative –1 penalty on Constitution checks
to avoid further inebriation. A character’s effective Dexterity and
Wisdom can’t fall below 1 due to inebriation. The character’s actual
Constitution score (and hit points) remains unchanged. A character
passes out when the penalty on Constitution checks equals his
Constitution score. He remains unconscious for 2d4 hours and
is fatigued when he awakens, but the temporary penalties end.

[Pickford]

I am perfectly comfortable with you going first.

Ok then....as neither character is surprised we skip that part and Tad makes his move.

He gets up off his taking a 5' step and fiddles with his belt. Appearing on the bar next to you is a.... (wait for it)....

Wolverine!

It doesn't look nice, but doesn't rip your face off.
It does however ready an action to rip your face off if you try to move

So for a crappy diagram:

w = wolverine
a = anya
r = rat familiar (assumed to be in same square as anya)
t = tad

wa t

edit: I was joking about the drunkenness...I mean we can do that, but it seems like a bit of distraction as well.
edit2: And the wolverine, though it's 'next' to anya is on top of the bar.

[Juntao112]

Questions:
1) So you are summoning a wolverine in a bar full of patrons?
2) How drunk are you when you're doing this? (In terms of penalties to Dex and Wis - these will apply to me as well, of course.)
3) Am I correct in reading that I am not being threatened by you? (As per the text of Mage Slayer, I know when I am threatened and cannot cast defensively.)
4) What are the laws in this town regarding the use of offensive magic?

[Zombulian]

Yep, Factotums, Wizards, Psions, and Swordsage are probably my faviorte classes. Although I do have a soft spot for Monks.

Factotum makes the best (non full caster) assassins in the game though, hands down.

Especially when you hit level 19 and have 10 iterations of Font of Inspiration for 63 IP.

Spend 4 IP for a Rogue's Sneak Attack, 4 IP for a Psychic Rogue's Sneak Attack, and 4 IP for a Ninja's Sudden Strike. That is +27d6. Now True Strike, Sniper's Shot, Int to Attack, and Int to Damage for another 4 IP. Then the last 47 IP on Cunning Strike. That is 74d6 in Sneak Attack damage (76d6 with Assassins Stance).

Or spend the 51 IP on Cunning Surge 17 times. For seventeen attacks at +27d6 (29d6 with Assassins Stance) in one standard action. Get a Collision weapon along with Craven and you are at (29d6+24) damage on each of those full AB attacks. Get Wraithstrike and those are also all touch attacks. Or have AMF up and bring down all magical defenses.

Incidentally, average damage on each of those strikes is 125 or so (requiring massive damage saves as well).

O.o whoa. On top of the others, you could probably squish in Rokugan Ninja's SA and a Ranger's Favored Enemy right?
I actually had an idea going with the same idea of tons of cunning surge as well, but maybe 12 Factotum 8 Totemist and spend your extra standards slinging 8 spines (16 if you have the amulet of nat attacks or whatever that lets you enchant it with splitting) at full AB and adding half str mod to damage. Could probably pick up craven for that build as well...

[Pickford]

Questions:
1) So you are summoning a wolverine in a bar full of patrons?
2) How drunk are you when you're doing this? (In terms of penalties to Dex and Wis - these will apply to me as well, of course.)
3) Am I correct in reading that I am not being threatened by you? (As per the text of Mage Slayer, I know when I am threatened and cannot cast defensively.)
4) What are the laws in this town regarding the use of offensive magic?

1) No patrons, they cleared out recognizing that a pair of dangerous gunslingers (us) were about to have a showdown. Also, and this may be important, there's no law for leagues in any direction, so no hope of interference by any 'authorities'.

2) We're not, that part was flavor text.

3) Correct as Tad does not appear to be armed with a reach weapon and is 10' away, so casting defensively 'is' possible here. Though that won't avoid the readied action of the wolverine

4) No restrictions on exploding things, this is the only tavern and the owner fled (wisely)

[Juntao112]

Anya sees the monk fiddling around and wisely decides to pop off her contingency by activating its trigger, a particularly nasty curse word. An eight-food diameter Resilient Sphere surrounds her as you summon the wolverine.

On her turn, she will simply Dimension Door straight up 920 feet. As Dimension Door prevents me from taking any further actions, this ends my turn.

[Spuddles]

This feels like the kind of argument that is pointless at best, and inaccurate at worst. On the pointless side of things, this monk isn't trying to kill monsters with SLA's. He's trying to kill wizards. Wizards, as has been noted, have many many ways around spell resistance. If this guy wants to run around killing wizards, he's going to need to be able to kill wizards, which is something I doubt he can do. We've given tons of reasons for that. On the inaccurate side of things, sometimes monsters, like wizards, have spells that just skip SR entirely. Take the glabrezu, for instance. He can cast reverse gravity, and that seems to be it for the monk. Flight bypasses it, but there're probably other examples out there if you take the time to look. The lammasu mostly just has buffs that he casts on himself, for example, which is also generally true of the celestial charger.

I think the real point here is the first one though. This monk is fighting wizards, not wizard substitutes. A monk fighting against monsters has other problems, especially if he wants to pour all of his resources into grappling and mage slayer feats. Back to the glabrezu example, those things have a grapple mod of +30, and that's not a particularly aberrant example. You mentioned storm giants, but those guys have permanent freedom of movement, with a +36 grapple mod if you dispel that. Your monk is built to fight wizards, but doesn't do it very well. He's not built to fight monsters, so I don't think he can do that very well either.

Those are all super excellent points. I concede that looking at casting monsters is misleading if we're building a mage-hunter.

Swordsage/telfammar shadowlords are BALLER. Everytime you use a teleportation effect on yourself, you get a full attack.

Swordsage lets you teleport as a move and standard action (and swift). Pick up an anklet of translocation for swift teleportation that doesnt need LoE. This can net you 3 full attacks a round, or five with a belt of battle.

Get yourself a wand of wraithstrike and stick that in your aptitude keen collision aptitude kukris so you can lightning mace the bejeezus out of your opposition.

Course, anticipate teleport ruins this build....

[Snails]

Make your monk, and declare your opening move.

I consult with the rest of the party, and decide on a strategy, after the cleric has used Divination to assess the target and likely battleground.

Duh.

[Snails]

Anya sees the monk fiddling around and wisely decides to pop off her contingency by activating its trigger, a particularly nasty curse word. An eight-food diameter Resilient Sphere surrounds her as you summon the wolverine.

On her turn, she will simply Dimension Door straight up 920 feet. As Dimension Door prevents me from taking any further actions, this ends my turn.

A wizard that burns 3 spells for a very temporary effect at first glance of my party is a wizard that is going to be easy to handle. As soon as the battle gets a lukewarm, he just runs away? Good.

I am used to DMs with more tactical savvy than that.

The more constructive answer is that creatures that have a lot magical movement (Demons, Devils, Wizards) are not targets that can easily be pinned down, and there is usually little point in trying. Go after that which they care about, and they will come to you.

[Juntao112]

I consult with the rest of the party, and decide on a strategy, after the cleric has used Divination to assess the target and likely battleground.

Duh.

Ah, so your mage slayer brings a party with him. Very wise choice of tactics.


A wizard that burns 3 spells for a very temporary effect at first glance of my party is a wizard that is going to be easy to handle. As soon as the battle gets a lukewarm, he just runs away? Good.

I am used to DMs with more tactical savvy than that.

Why Snails, if you would like to take part in this, you need only create a thread and I will oblige you.


The more constructive answer is that creatures that have a lot magical movement (Demons, Devils, Wizards) are not targets that can easily be pinned down, and there is usually little point in trying. Go after that which they care about, and they will come to you.

I must admit, I am curious; why did you not choose to open wit the constructive answer as opposed to what you have currently?

[Snails]

I must admit, I am curious; why did you not choose to open wit the constructive answer as opposed to what you have currently?

I offered the Monk as "pretty good" because I thought that based on what the OP said, it would likely be enjoyable, and I backed that suggestion with meritorious arguments. I never tried to claim that the Monk was the best or optimal (whatever that would mean).

That seemed to precipitate what I interpreted as standard Tier 1 Ideology-based responses, in particular the peculiar obsession with "cage match" scenarios, which I find often irrelevant.

I perhaps got irritated when maybe I should not have.

As you are inquiring politely about a less than polite answer of my own, I will provide another constructive suggestion as a peace offering...

The OP mentions a paladin in the party. One possible tactic would be:
* Unicorn as paladin special mount
* Unicorn can speak, and thus use magic items in a number of useful Action Economy bending ways
* Give the Unicorn a DDoor item, e.g. Cape of the Mountebank
* The Unicorn can DDoor both the paladin and the monk (7th level caster == self + 2 medium creatures). The unicorn's turn is finished, but the paladin and monk may attack
* The monk can unleash a flurry stun attacks (Stun feat stack, Blinkd Fighting feat)
* The paladin can unleash a hasted 4 iterative attack (use Awesome Smite: Seeking Smite to bypass all miss chance; possibly also Extra Smiting and/or adamantine falchion + Improved Critical)

If the monk can land a Stun, there is a fairly good chance of inflicting 100-150 hit points of damage (without a lot of minmaxing). Plus a soft lock from stun.

Of course, sufficiently clever use of Contingency can (temporarily) stop almost any tactic. It will be necessary to explore how to strip off or avoid the Contingency(ies). Additional DDoors per day might be sufficient. The paladin could get ranks in Use Magic Device cross class, plus an item for +10 competency in UMD, and employ a wand of DDoor perhaps -- not cheap, but it is a flexible tactical option.

Really it is hard to make more guesses without knowing why this wizard needs killing, and where the points of leverage exist against the wizard.

[Juntao112]

Of course, sufficiently clever use of Contingency can (temporarily) stop almost any tactic. It will be necessary to explore how to strip off or avoid the Contingency(ies). Additional DDoors per day might be sufficient. The paladin could get ranks in Use Magic Device cross class, plus an item for +10 competency in UMD, and employ a wand of DDoor perhaps -- not cheap, but it is a flexible tactical option.
My understanding is that the monk is generally better at UMD.

[Flickerdart]

If the monk can land a Stun, there is a fairly good chance of inflicting 100-150 hit points of damage (without a lot of minmaxing). Plus a soft lock from stun.
Given that the wizard has 24 hour buffs that make him immune to Stunning Fist, there's no if. Stunning Fist will fail every single time.

[Carth]

Well, that and saves is near the top of the list for optimization on all characters, and the DC on stunning fist is generally pathetic.

[Flickerdart]

Well, that and saves is near the top of the list for optimization on all characters, and the DC on stunning fist is generally pathetic.
You can always go with Pickford's favourite optimization tactic of dumping Dex and Con completely, and surviving early levels through not playing in them.

[JaronK]

A solid anti mage ability is Divine Defiance, a feat that lets you counterspell using Turn Undead. This can be very powerful when combined with Tenebrous Apostate/Anima Mage.

JaronK

[Snails]

Given that the wizard has 24 hour buffs that make him immune to Stunning Fist, there's no if. Stunning Fist will fail every single time.

Utter nonsense.

The OP is in a party. There are ways of stripping that buff away -- in fact, depending on these layers of buffs logically implies that a single lucky targeted dispel can leave the enemy wizard extremely depleted.

And if the threat of Stunning Fist forces allocation of resources, then that counts for something. It is not necessary to assume the Monk is monolithic in tactics. Start with good ideas and then adjust.

But let's get back to the logic of buffing. If the enemy is depending on layers of buffs, then the opening move of salvos of dispels is a strong tactic. A 13th level party facing, say, a 16th level wizard has a 20% of winning the caster level check with a Dispel Magic and a 35% with a Greater Dispel Magic. If the Cleric and Druid open up with 2 X ( Greater Dispel Magic + Quickened Dispel Magic), then the enemy is down to a random ~27% of his buffs.

4 spells to remove 73% of the buffs can be a good deal, even with the Action cost factored in. (The party is allowed to break off combat and regroup, too.)

[Snails]

Well, that and saves is near the top of the list for optimization on all characters, and the DC on stunning fist is generally pathetic.

Even more nonsense.

A 13th level monk is going have a bare minimum of DC 20 for that Fort save vs. Stun. It is not that difficult to get that up to DC 25 or even higher.

If we want to apply an iota of logic, then casually assuming that DC 20+ effects are easy to make cuts both ways. A Monk and Paladin, backed by a healers (Cleric and Druid), can just plain suck up every spell until the enemy wizard is helpless.

You are making this too easy.

[Snails]

My understanding is that the monk is generally better at UMD.

I have not considered carefully how well it would work for the monk, so I do not have an opinion there.

A 13th level Paladin can make good use of a high Cha with the UMD skill. An item to give +10 skill costs 10k. +6 for Cha. +3 of 3 ranks of UMD as a cross class skill. That gives a +19 UMD -- good enough to use wands without fail.

And once we are there, if your DM is not stingy about Shared Spell there are some pretty fun tactics to explore, e.g. share Blink so that paladin and mount can move through a wall of stone.

[Forrestfire]

Even more nonsense.

A 13th level monk is going have a bare minimum of DC 20 for that Fort save vs. Stun. It is not that difficult to get that up to DC 25 or even higher.

If we want to apply an iota of logic, then casually assuming that DC 20+ effects are easy to make cuts both ways. A Monk and Paladin, backed by a healers (Cleric and Druid), can just plain suck up every spell until the enemy wizard is helpless.

You are making this too easy.

So at this point, your argument boils down to "the best anti-mage is four equally leveled characters," not "the best anti-mage is a monk?"

[Snails]

So at this point, your argument boils down to "the best anti-mage is four equally leveled characters," not "the best anti-mage is a monk?"

It sounds right to me, but I have not carefully considered that point.

Please recall I used the words "pretty good" to describe the monk. I was using my best interpretation of what would likely satisfy the OP. I never claimed other ideas would not also satisfy the OP.

As a matter of flavor, a non-spellcaster should get points. Having inherent SR should get points, too. Picking up the Mage Slayer feat fits nicely as well. So the monk feels thematically strong, and that speaks in favor of the OP enjoying playing this character, based on his words.

What is "the best" is not something I have ever claimed to know. I do think that the monk is "good enough" mechanically, in the context of the party he would travel with -- with a paladin and druid in the party, raw fighting skills are less critical.

[eggynack]

I really don't understand why we're evaluating stunning fist from the perspective of a wizard who is standing five feet away from a monk who has just successfully punched him. The issue isn't that the stunning fist won't work after that. I don't think that was ever the issue. The issue is, that if the monk is standing five feet away from a wizard, and can successfully punch him, then stunning fist is a relatively horrible tactic. A barbarian, in an identical situation, could easily murder him. I mean, I could math it out, but I don't see the point. We all know how crazy those numbers can get.

Think of it this way. Assume that the wizard is standing five feet away from the monk, and the monk attempts a full attack. The wizard abrupt jaunts away, and then on his turn he uses solid fog. Now, the wizard is 15 feet away, and the monk takes two more turns to close with the wizard. There are some alright ways around these tactics, and Pickford actually posted some. The combination of the circlet of blasting and pierce magical concealment means that the monk can shoot away at the wizard instead of attempting to close. However, those aren't monk tactics, and they certainly don't involve stunning fist. I could easily throw just about everything that went into that monk build onto a barbarian 2/useful other melee dips x/runescarred barbarian x shell, and it'd likely be far superior, not least of which because it'd actually have the ability to threaten a wizard.

Consider the fact that any round in which the wizard is hit by the barbarian, is a round in which the wizard dies. That's really the kind of pressure I think we should be applying, rather than the attempt to fight on the wizard's terms of using various short term debuffs that the wizard might have a defense against. Wizards love those terms, because they mean that the monk will waste a turn grappling, and the wizard can use his super secret special technique. Really, the core issue here is that monks just don't make good mage killers, and they're certainly not the best melee mage killer. Even if Pickford's build somehow manages to win the fight, the runescarred barbarian can rely on the old adage of, "anything you can do, I can do better." So, that's why stunning fist is terrible. Not for some high-falutin reason involving sky high saves, but just because it's an inferior tactic.

[Flickerdart]

If the Cleric and Druid open up with 2 X ( Greater Dispel Magic + Quickened Dispel Magic), then the enemy is down to a random ~27% of his buffs.
Or the Cleric and Druid can cast spells that incapacitate the target in the first place (with much better DCs, too, since they're operating off a single primary stat), instead of trying to prop up the useless Monk who needs to close with the enemy, hit them, and then hope that they fail the save. Monk contributes nothing here.

[Snails]

eggynack,

Your points have merit, but I do not think it is as simple as that.

Ideally a party has some coherent strategy involving high offense, balance of offense and defense, or high defense.

High offense will always plausibly work. The rules do tend to lean that way. And it always looks great on paper. It also gets better with DMs that are indulgent with splatbooks, so YMMV. But realistic scenarios are not so simple. A well designed party, smartly played, can win easily enough by drawing out the combat. (Note: I am not suggesting that high offense does not work, only that it is not the only viable strategy.)

With a cleric, druid, and paladin as party members, blending towards defense can work very well. The saving throws in this party are sky high.

What does the monk bring? He is dangerous enough that ignoring him is a bad idea, but with enough defensive ability that actually spending spells on him is annoying and unreliable. Solid fog? Web? Who cares! Retreat, regroup, return. The enemy wizard DDoors away? Good. The party can play the slow game, too.

The monk only has to be dangerous enough to force the enemy wizard to cast buffs because of him, and can force him to spend precious Actions during combat, even if not every round. If a monk can suck up 25% of the wizard's resources and attention, he is doing okay.

Let's turn this equation around and look at the problem from the point of view of the enemy wizard. I am facing a cleric, a druid, a paladin, and a wizard (or barbarian). I would like to kill some healing early, but killing clerics is not easy, and with two and a half healers in the party that is pretty unlikely. My eye then turns towards a glass cannon. A wizard (or barbarian) is easier to figure out how to kill or defeat.

In the case of the wizard, I will kill him in some obvious way -- my chances of getting lucky with an Empowered Disintegrate are pretty good. In the case of the barbarian, I will attack his mind and nullify his effectiveness. Both are very simple tactical problems.

Dealing with the monk is a harder tactical problem, even if it is less urgent because of lower prospects of sudden instant death.

Is the tradeoff worthwhile? I do not have an opinion about that. I just think the monk could easily be good enough to be fun.

[Snails]

Or the Cleric and Druid can cast spells that incapacitate the target in the first place (with much better DCs, too, since they're operating off a single primary stat), instead of trying to prop up the useless Monk who needs to close with the enemy, hit them, and then hope that they fail the save. Monk contributes nothing here.

While their casting stat is higher, their DC is not necessarily higher, because it is easier/cheaper to raise the DC of the Stun. Regardless, I have been told that making these saves is easy, so even with a notch or two higher DC, your tactic will "always" fail. It does not makes any sense to me, but perhaps Carth can explain it to you.

[ArcturusV]

The only logic that comes to mind right away Snails is... about 90% of the time, even if an enemy succeeds on it's save versus a spell a druid, cleric, wizard, etc, is likely to choose to use? It's still gonna get punished. Not as badly. They might be crippled for only 2 rounds instead of 10 minutes. They might take 50 damage instead of 100, etc. But they're still getting something out of it.

Whereas with things like Stunning Fist, if your enemy saves. That's it. You burned up a resource for zero gain.

Of coruse there are exceptions on the spell think. Reflex saving throw exceptions mostly. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything like Evasion for Will and Fort. Not saying it doesn't exist, just can't think of it at the moment.

Except maybe Lichdom for Fort.

But most of the "Good" spells people choose target Will or Fort.

[eggynack]

eggynack,

Your points have merit, but I do not think it is as simple as that.

Ideally a party has some coherent strategy involving high offense, balance of offense and defense, or high defense.

High offense will always plausibly work. The rules do tend to lean that way. And it always looks great on paper. It also gets better with DMs that are indulgent with splatbooks, so YMMV. But realistic scenarios are not so simple. A well designed party, smartly played, can win easily enough by drawing out the combat. (Note: I am not suggesting that high offense does not work, only that it is not the only viable strategy.)

With a cleric, druid, and paladin as party members, blending towards defense can work very well. The saving throws in this party are sky high.

What does the monk bring? He is dangerous enough that ignoring him is a bad idea, but with enough defensive ability that actually spending spells on him is annoying and unreliable. Solid fog? Web? Who cares! Retreat, regroup, return. The enemy wizard DDoors away? Good. The party can play the slow game, too.

The monk only has to be dangerous enough to force the enemy wizard to cast buffs because of him, and can force him to spend precious Actions during combat, even if not every round. If a monk can suck up 25% of the wizard's resources and attention, he is doing okay.

Let's turn this equation around and look at the problem from the point of view of the enemy wizard. I am facing a cleric, a druid, a paladin, and a wizard (or barbarian). I would like to kill some healing early, but killing clerics is not easy, and with two and a half healers in the party that is pretty unlikely. My eye then turns towards a glass cannon. A wizard (or barbarian) is easier to figure out how to kill or defeat.

In the case of the wizard, I will kill him in some obvious way -- my chances of getting lucky with an Empowered Disintegrate are pretty good. In the case of the barbarian, I will attack his mind and nullify his effectiveness. Both are very simple tactical problems.

Dealing with the monk is a harder tactical problem, even if it is less urgent because of lower prospects of sudden instant death.

Is the tradeoff worthwhile? I do not have an opinion about that. I just think the monk could easily be good enough to be fun.
Apart from a once per day dimension door, the monk has nothing in his entire arsenal that can stop a solid fog or web. Moreover, your contention that defense has some role above offense makes no sense. The barbarian wants to be a target for the wizard's spells, because that means that the wizard is taking actions against him. Monks are far less threatening, so the wizard is far less likely to target him. Monks have very few ways to reliably apply pressure, which means that he's not even really relevant to the combat. Grappling is pretty consistently not going to work, and stunning fist does nothing that a killing stab can't.

Everything I've learned about 3.5 tells me that offense is far more important than defense, and nothing you've claimed gives me reason to question that. The fact that my barbarian build has some access to reasonably powerful spells at that level adds merit to my claims. Haste, greater magic weapon, divine power, and freedom of movement seem far from negligible in my view. If you want the wizard to throw things at you, you need to be a threat, and these monks just aren't a threat.

[tyckspoon]

Of coruse there are exceptions on the spell think. Reflex saving throw exceptions mostly. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything like Evasion for Will and Fort. Not saying it doesn't exist, just can't think of it at the moment.


It's called Mettle. Shows up in the Hexblade base class and a few prestige classes.

[Zombulian]

It's called Mettle. Shows up in the Hexblade base class and a few prestige classes.

Mhm. Notably Pious Templar from CDiv gets it at level 1 of the PrC. Which is nice.

[Flickerdart]

While their casting stat is higher, their DC is not necessarily higher, because it is easier/cheaper to raise the DC of the Stun. Regardless, I have been told that making these saves is easy, so even with a notch or two higher DC, your tactic will "always" fail. It does not makes any sense to me, but perhaps Carth can explain it to you.
If a cleric sees that his enemy is making his saves, he can use a no-save spell. If a monk sees the enemy is making saves against his stuns, he has no recourse.

[Spuddles]

Monk is generally a bad choice for everything. He's pretty durable vs things that force saves, especially nasty stuff like mind control or disease. But you won't be having much fun with your mage slayer vs. bruiser monsters or builds, and your stupendous MADness and dumping ranks in cross class UMD (cause let's face it, when you have as little going for you as a monk, you really need those partially charged wands and dust of coughing and sneezing) means little utility outside of very specific circumstances.

[eggynack]

I thought I'd toss some thoughts down about the runescarred berserker. I figure that the build's gotta be something like barbarian 2/fighter 2/X 2/ warblade 1/runescarred berserker 6. The whole thing is a bit feat hungry, I have to admit. However, you get 5 feats from levels, one from the primal force of humanity, two from the fighter, and presumably one from an otyugh hole. For the anti-mage part, you want mage slayer, blind-fight, pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection. One of the feats needs to go to survivor, and the otyugh hole is obviously just getting you into runescarred berserker. That's 6 out of 9 feats accounted for. One classic option is improved bull rush, power attack, shock trooper, and I'm always a fan of imperious command, intimidating rage, instantaneous rage, and a side order of never outnumbered. So, anyone got any ideas for levels five and six, the last three feats, or some other rule of three abiding third thing?

As some side notes, I figured he doesn't need extra rage like other barbarian dipping characters, because runescarred berserker handles that for you. Also, I didn't mention it, but he's taking all of my favorite barbarian things, which are comprised of spirit lion totem, wolf totem, and whirling frenzy. I didn't know if that was obvious. Finally, I'm not super experienced with tome of battle, so if anyone has some good ideas on what to do with the maneuvers he gets at 7th, that'd be sweet.

[Amoren]

Hmm, I've had an Anti-Mage idea bouncing around in my head for a bit, if that competition is still open. :P

Also, why hasn't anyone touched upon Sleight of Hand? Against a wizard or sorcerer that doesn't have eschew materials (and how many really grab it? I've always had people consider it a useless feat to take) it allows you to shut down a good majority of their spells by stealing their spell component pouch. Then throw in the fact that you can steal the focus for their contingency...

My best idea is to be a sneaky backstabber. Have a means of getting close without being detected (Mind Blank + Hide In Plane Sight of some sort), sleight of hand whatever you can to make them less able to defend themselves against you (Contingency focus, spell component pouch, wands, ioun stones, etc), and then strike.

For the actual striking, I favor Staggering Strike + the Mage Slayer feat line. Staggering Strike forces the poor wizard to take ONLY one move or standard action per turn, and is not defeated by Freedom of Movement. Combined with Mageslayer, it means that the mage cannot cast defensively, and cannot maneuver to get himself out of that position. Throw in Hide in Plane Sight and an optimized hide to hide between attacks, and the caster can't target you with spells, either.

Also while Staggered, the Mage is unable to use swift or immediate actions (so the only spells he can cast are move or standard, which allow attacks of opportunity). Also, because you got the jump on the mage (hopefully) from stealth, they're flat footed and can't use immediate actions to protect themselves (so no abrupt jaunt). And, after Staggered, they can't take an immediate or swift action to use it (although they could use it after their turn ends, but before you strike. Although this approaches a level of metagaming. How does the wizard 'know' when its the end of his 'turn' but before the bugger in stealth attacks? There's no context for him to time his Abrupt Jaunt too, because he can't see or react to the rogue).

The best defense I can think up to this scenario is being immune to sneak attack, probably via fortification or Heart of X spells. (Because Divination attempts are ruined by mind blank, and while there are a myriad of anti-stealth detection methods such as Mindsight if one doesn't rule that Mind Blank defeats it, or Lifesight, these things aren't really common on wizards and approaches trying to counter the counter. Besides which, there are counters to those counters, as well). So, some way to get flanking for use with Penetrating Strike would be needed, and while that would hurt the DC for Staggering Strike, taking Craven ensures that the DC should still be sky high.

There's also a silencing ambush feat, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure how good it is, but rendering your opponent flat footed, staggered, AND mute, with his contingency and other defensive items robbed of him, should make any normal wizard cry.

[eggynack]

Couldn't taking the spell component pouch be rendered useless by the wizard carrying more than one spell component pouch? They only cost 5 GP and weigh two pounds, so a wizard with 8 strength at 13th level could buy 22,000 of them, and carry 40 of them on his person as a heavy load. Realistically, meaning not realistically at all, he'd split his money optimally between spell component pouches and bags of holding. Actually realistically, the wizard might have like two or three spell component pouches at a trivial cost.

[Pickford]

Anya sees the monk fiddling around and wisely decides to pop off her contingency by activating its trigger, a particularly nasty curse word. An eight-food diameter Resilient Sphere surrounds her as you summon the wolverine.

On her turn, she will simply Dimension Door straight up 920 feet. As Dimension Door prevents me from taking any further actions, this ends my turn.

For flavor: You can see your house...kidding, there's just the structure of the bar which is next to the road. The area in front of the bar is cleared but on both sides and behind is a dense forested area.

Now the mechanics: Ok, on the first round (i.e. the end of your turn) Anya falls 150'. So she's 770' up in a bubble. In the interests of fairness, I think I should remind you that Anya will take falling damage, and a lot of it, when/if she reaches the ground as the sphere is immune to damage, but Anya is not.

Tad and the Wolverine spend their turns ascertaining that Anya is not physically present in the Bar.

edit: Wait, 8' diameter...does that mean the wolverine is in there too? (8' exceeds one square...)

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure Anya is casting feather fall next turn. She originally did it last turn, but he edited it out because dimension door stops further actions.

Edit: Correction, it's definitely what she's doing next turn. On the character sheet, it's listed as being cast already.

[Pickford]

I'm pretty sure Anya is casting feather fall next turn. She originally did it last turn, but he edited it out because dimension door stops further actions.

Ah, I see...that's probably not going to help here though.

From resilient sphere:

The subject may struggle, but the sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.

This suggests that only natural forces, i.e. gravity, are taken into consideration and the sphere will actually fall at the normal rate regardless of anything Anya does. (i.e. she casts feather fall and the sphere 'pushes' her downward at the faster speed because she can't stop it).

I suppose the first move would necessarily be to dismiss the sphere (standard action) and then use her (what'd they change feather fall, according to the errata'd phb it's still a free action, to: immediate or swift?) other action to feather fall.

[Amoren]

In regards to the fight, I don't think the sphere would work that way. I think, as written, it is always around centered on her, and thus would fall only as she fell, which she wouldn't if she casts feather fall. If it isn't always centered on her, however, then it wouldn't have teleported with her.

[eggynack]

Crap on a stick. I missed the berserker lodge feat in my barbarian build, so that cuts down on the empty slots by one. On the kinda plus side, I suppose I get to pick out a berserker lodge feat. We can also pump the feat list by two if flaws are allowed.

Edit: Wolf berserker looks like the pick here. Improved trip comes free with the build, so the replacement to combat expertise could be helpful. However, I suppose we could get rid of wolf totem, make the two remaining feats improved trip and knock-down, and take something else instead of a barbarian level. Seems pretty good, although the two barbarian level version is good too.

[Anthrowhale]

For offense, a custom magic item Harpoon with a 1/day AMF on it followed by a grapple should be pretty effective. The AMF breaks all typical wizard defenses, while the Harpoon explicitly sticks in a target and is difficult to remove.

Cheap effective wizard defense is pretty difficult, but if you can draw from multiple settings, AMF Torc + Troll Blooded + Warforged + Ritual of the Elements from savage species for Fire/Acid immunity + Warforged Juggernaut 2 provides immunity to most magic at that level. You'll need a substantial offense to deal with conjured creatures.

For more extreme optimization, look at ExFighter.

[Juntao112]

This suggests that only natural forces, i.e. gravity, are taken into consideration and the sphere will actually fall at the normal rate regardless of anything Anya does. (i.e. she casts feather fall and the sphere 'pushes' her downward at the faster speed because she can't stop it).

I suppose the first move would necessarily be to dismiss the sphere (standard action) and then use her (what'd they change feather fall, according to the errata'd phb it's still a free action, to: immediate or swift?) other action to feather fall.

Pickford, you certainly have an interesting reading of the rules. Your interpretation would imply that, if Resilient Sphere were cast on a flying creature, it would drag the creature down to earth instead of trapping it in the air. Nowhere is this implied in the rules.

[eggynack]

Pickford, you certainly have an interesting reading of the rules. Your interpretation would imply that, if Resilient Sphere were cast on a flying creature, it would drag the creature down to earth instead of trapping it in the air. Nowhere is this implied in the rules.
Yeah, you're probably correct. However, that interpretation sounds like it'd play out in frigging hilarious ways in game.

[Juntao112]

Now that a tactical withdraw has been made (incidentally, this is how you get out of Mage Slayer range without Heart of Water), the next step would, logically, be to cast Invisibility, Fly, and Alter Self (Troglodyte) before dismissing the Resilient Sphere while roughly 320 feet above the bar.

[gorfnab]

Here is a lock-down anti-mage type build I came up with a while ago.


1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The level order of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.

[Pickford]

Pickford, you certainly have an interesting reading of the rules. Your interpretation would imply that, if Resilient Sphere were cast on a flying creature, it would drag the creature down to earth instead of trapping it in the air. Nowhere is this implied in the rules.

Well, actually I was wondering how dimension door interacts with it.

i.e.

1) Does it fizzle (the sphere blocking the ability of the creature to move)

2) Does the sphere remain while the creature moves

3) Does the sphere go with the creature?

4) Does the sphere fall or hover in its new location?
4a) If it falls, is there any reason it wouldn't fall at the standard rate for falling objects? (This is the interpretation I am considering reasonable) and as the creature 'inside' is incapable of moving the sphere, it falls irrespective of the creatures use of feather fall.
4b) If it hovers...feather fall is unnecessary until the spell goes away in 13 minutes.

These are just the logical possibilities. The question becomes, which are we agreeing occurs? Now, the sphere would 'seem' to be attached to the creature, though nothing in the spell description says that is actually true. And according to the spell description nothing physically done by the subject or those outside can move the sphere.

That leaves open: Magical forces; Natural forces (the strong, weak, gravity, magnetic); psionic forces.

edit: Amoren, nothing in the spell description suggests the trapped creature can do 'anything' to stop the sphere if it's in motion. Indeed, the creatures struggles are specifically said to be useless.


Effect: 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature

This suggests the sphere is not actually 'attached'. (Otherwise the target would be a creature, not an effect; incidentally this mirrors the effect of a forcecage, and we can all agree a creature using dimension door actually leaves the forcecage behind).

So...that being the case, Anya should be 750' up now, not surrounded by the bubble which remains in the bar with Tad.

[eggynack]

Yeah, that last interpretation sounds about right. I thought that the contingency resilient sphere+dimension door combo was a bit excessive anyway. It doesn't seem like a monk could get through one or the other. At the very least, it doesn't seem like this monk has a way of getting through one or the other. I mean, why not just use a contingencied dimension door, or just stand in the resilient sphere while you cast buffs? I suppose that it might be a helpful tactic against theoretical not-monks, but still.

[Pickford]

Yeah, that last interpretation sounds about right. I thought that the contingency resilient sphere+dimension door combo was a bit excessive anyway. It doesn't seem like a monk could get through one or the other. At the very least, it doesn't seem like this monk has a way of getting through one or the other. I mean, why not just use a contingencied dimension door, or just stand in the resilient sphere while you cast buffs? I suppose that it might be a helpful tactic against theoretical not-monks, but still.

So what does the Wizard do if they're in the underdark (i.e. more than 920' under ground?)

[eggynack]

So what does the Wizard do if they're in the underdark (i.e. more than 920' under ground?)
I dunno. Have a contingencied teleport running instead? Rely on the sphere version instead of the dimension door version? Use any of the numerous tactics that a wizard has access to, but hasn't been using in this fight because you're trying to take out a core only sorcerer? Lotsa stuff. Wizards tend to have multiple plans. It's why they're good.

[Pickford]

I dunno. Have a contingencied teleport running instead? Rely on the sphere version instead of the dimension door version? Use any of the numerous tactics that a wizard has access to, but hasn't been using in this fight because you're trying to take out a core only sorcerer? Lotsa stuff. Wizards tend to have multiple plans. It's why they're good.

I mean: What does the Wizard do when they prepared for one adventure, but got 1 of the 99 billion other options?

I didn't even introduce the Red Dragon who's flying overhead and sees this tasty morsel pop into view. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

I mean: What does the Wizard do when they prepared for one adventure, but got 1 of the 99 billion other options?

I didn't even introduce the Red Dragon who's flying overhead and sees this tasty morsel pop into view. :smalltongue:
The problem is that they don't have one of the 99 billion other options. They have a whole bunch of spells, and a lot of them are versatile enough to apply in more than once situation. Look at Anya even. She has some real clunkers on that list, but she also has stuff like solid fog. Basically, any time there's an enemy who you want to stop moving, solid fog is excellent. Most of the time, there's an enemy who you want to stop moving. It goes like that for a lot of spells. The same spell you prepared to let you travel to the nearest town to buy supplies is also the spell you prepared to let you escape from battle more efficiently than just about anyone. That's some serious versatility right there. Then you have something like alter self that can be used to give you a ridiculous variety of buffs. Wizard spells aren't like single use tools. A lot of them tend to be swiss army knives, and the wizard can prepare a lot of them. You end up with a character who's prepared for anything a good pile of times over.

Edit: Also, the crazy versatility of some of his spells means that he can also prepare some really situational spells. Thus, in response to the red dragon flying overhead, the wizard has shivering touch and some means to deliver it stealthily. Probably spectral hand or something. He can also use standard spells like he uses against everything else, but shivering touch is sweet.

[Juntao112]

Yeah, that last interpretation sounds about right. I thought that the contingency resilient sphere+dimension door combo was a bit excessive anyway. It doesn't seem like a monk could get through one or the other. At the very least, it doesn't seem like this monk has a way of getting through one or the other. I mean, why not just use a contingencied dimension door, or just stand in the resilient sphere while you cast buffs? I suppose that it might be a helpful tactic against theoretical not-monks, but still.

Rods of Absorption get through Resilient Spheres. Now, Pickford's monk does not have one, but I do not know that and acting upon knowledge my character does not know is metagaming.

Also, monks do get Dimension Door. And there are certainly items which can allow him to teleport. (Which, again, I don't know if he has or not, but I am going to try to avoid metagaming.)


So what does the Wizard do if they're in the underdark (i.e. more than 920' under ground?)

Dimension Door to a rocky outcropping, different chamber, or some other more tactically viable location.

[Emperor Tippy]

Um, you guys do realize that the Resilient Sphere doesn't teleport with the mage, right?

It's not an emanation. When cast it creates a 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, from then on it does not move (and if cast in the air it doesn't fall from gravity).

So there is a Resilient Sphere with nothing in it sitting on the ground in the bar and the mage is in the air above it. Also, the mage could have cast Feather Fall before using Dimension Door (and probably should have done so).

[Pickford]

Um, you guys do realize that the Resilient Sphere doesn't teleport with the mage, right?

It's not an emanation. When cast it creates a 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, from then on it does not move (and if cast in the air it doesn't fall from gravity).

So there is a Resilient Sphere with nothing in it sitting on the ground in the bar and the mage is in the air above it. Also, the mage could have cast Feather Fall before using Dimension Door (and probably should have done so).

Hrm, it was also bothering me that Anya had two contingencies active and now I see why:


You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

I guess it's a good thing Tad didn't just stand in Anya's space, then melee grapple sealing them both inside the shell...?

Edit: So round 2 Anya falls a further 300' and is now 450' above ground...actions?

[Juntao112]

Cast invisibility. Your move.

[Pickford]

Cast invisibility. Your move.

Tad looks out all the windows (I'm ruling this takes a round from his movement of 140') while the Wolverine sniffs around (finding nothing).

Unless you cast feather-fall, anya falls a further 300' and is 150' above the ground.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hrm, it was also bothering me that Anya had two contingencies active and now I see why:

No, she has one and her familiar has one. And she could have more if she had bought some Craft Contingent spells.


I guess it's a good thing Tad didn't just stand in Anya's space, then melee grapple sealing them both inside the shell...?
Getting two medium characters into the same five foot square isn't easy.


Edit: So round 2 Anya falls a further 300' and is now 450' above ground...actions?
Um no. I believe that her first action of the second round was to cast Feather Fall (although I would have cast it before DD). Thus she only falls 60 feet per round.

This was then followed up by casting Invisibility as a standard action.

[Pickford]

No, she has one and her familiar has one. And she could have more if she had bought some Craft Contingent spells.

Contingency is a personal spell, not a touch spell. So...other than share spell (in which case it can't be different) how is that familiar who can't cast their own personal spells getting it?


Getting two medium characters into the same five foot square isn't easy.

It'd allow an attack of opportunity, but otherwise there's nothing to prevent it. Even the attack wouldn't prevent it actually.


Um no. I believe that her first action of the second round was to cast Feather Fall (although I would have cast it before DD). Thus she only falls 60 feet per round.

Ah, Juntao112 didn't say anything in the response quoting, so I assumed it agreed with my assessment.


This was then followed up by casting Invisibility as a standard action.

So Juntao112, to confirm, Anya is 690' up or 450'?

[Emperor Tippy]

Contingency is a personal spell, not a touch spell. So...other than share spell (in which case it can't be different) how is that familiar who can't cast their own personal spells getting it?
You can cast personal spells on your familiar.


Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "Personal" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.


It'd allow an attack of opportunity, but otherwise there's nothing to prevent it. Even the attack wouldn't prevent it actually.


Opponent

You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.


Ah, Juntao112 didn't say anything in the response quoting, so I assumed it agreed with my assessment.
Her sheet shows that Feather Fall was cast at some point.

[Pickford]

You can cast personal spells on your familiar.

Which violates the '1' casting of contingency rule. It's either the same one on both of you, or one on one of you. Not two.


Her sheet shows that Feather Fall was cast at some point.

If she can't confirm, it didn't happen. Sorry to be firm on this point, but Juntao has to 'say' it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Which violates the '1' casting of contingency rule. It's either the same one on both of you, or one on one of you. Not two.
No. Share Spell allows you to do two separate things.

1) Cast a spell on yourself and have it cover your familiar as well (as if your familiar had also cast the spell), this only lasts so long as your familiar remains withing five feet of you. In this case the familiar still has its contingency.

2) Cast a personal range spell on your familiar as if the spell had a range of Touch. In this case the spell lasts its normal duration.

In neither case would the mage using its contingency remove or use up the familiars.

[Juntao112]

Tad looks out all the windows (I'm ruling this takes a round from his movement of 140') while the Wolverine sniffs around (finding nothing).

Unless you cast feather-fall, anya falls a further 300' and is 150' above the ground.

First, I must apologize for not remembering to modify my sheet to remove Feather Fall from being cast. I had originally done so, remembered I couldn't after DD, and then edited my actions in this thread.

I agree that only actions in this thread should count, as otherwise it is impossible for people to follow. (I trust, though, that you will allow me to start with Mage Armor in place, as it lasts for the entire workday?)

On round 2, Anya will cast Fly and hover 150 feet above the ground. Your turn, again.

Incidentally, are we going to use the smoke inhalation rules in the Environmental Hazards section of the DMG?

As for the contingency on my familiar, I believe it is legal to do so as the bearer of the contingency is then the familiar, since you can cast Personal spells on your familiar.


Share Spells
At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

So in addition to the Contingency I cast on myself, I can also cast a Contingency on my familiar.

[Pickford]

No. Share Spell allows you to do two separate things.

1) Cast a spell on yourself and have it cover your familiar as well (as if your familiar had also cast the spell), this only lasts so long as your familiar remains withing five feet of you. In this case the familiar still has its contingency.

2) Cast a personal range spell on your familiar as if the spell had a range of Touch. In this case the spell lasts its normal duration.

In neither case would the mage using its contingency remove or use up the familiars.

edit: From the Contingency spell.

You can use only one

That's one total casting, even if it was only cast on the familiar. If you then attempt to cast it on yourself, the one on the familiar alone goes away.

edit2: Juntao112, sure I'm fine with all of that. (Mage armor, any and all environmental rules, even just saying yeah I totally cast feather fall but forgot to mention it if you wanted)

edit3: Failing to find you, Tad will cautiously send the Wolverine out of the Bar to start sniffing around for you. (Anya sees the Wolverine exit the front door if she's looking directly down).

[Juntao112]

That's one total casting, even if it was only cast on the familiar.
Alternatively, it can mean you can only cast one Contingency on yourself.

The full text of which you are quoting is:

You can use only one contingency spell at a time

Now, if you cast on your familiar, are you using more than one at a time, or are you using one and your familiar using the other?


Failing to find you, Tad will cautiously send the Wolverine out of the Bar to start sniffing around for you. (Anya sees the Wolverine exit the front door if she's looking directly down).

Anya casts Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte. Back to you.

[Grayson01]

This was going to be my recommendation plus the mate slayer feats. As well as the non spell casting variant for the ranger from the Complete champion. You can ether go two weapon fighting or go ranged with an Elven craft comp bow (races of the the wild) so you can bash mellee with your bow and threaten adjacent squares.



The Arcane Hunter alternative class feature for Rangers (Complete Mage) might help. You can take Favored Enemy (Arcanist) if you have a at least 1 rank in Knowledge (Arcana)
The Occult Slayer is a Prestige Class. (Complete Warrior) I'm not so sure about this one, but who knows?

I also support the anti-wizard wizard. There can be only one!

[Pickford]

Alternatively, it can mean you can only cast one Contingency on yourself.

The full text of which you are quoting is:

Now, if you cast on your familiar, are you using more than one at a time, or are you using one and your familiar using the other?

I think the former as the wizard is the one casting the spell both times. If the familiar had spell/day I could see the argument for the latter.


Anya casts Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte. Back to you.

Tad follows the wolverine outside, they circle the bar, find no-one and pause under a tree to ponder this predicament. If you cast a spell with verbal components at this point they'd likely hear something and look up (loud clear voice).

[Ace Nex]

As mentioned, mage slayer is a good feat, as is pierce magical protection. Five levels of ranger with arcanist as 1st favored enemy gives you a +4 on pretty much everything. Then, take a couple levels of barbarian to meet the pre-req for rune scarred barbarian. At higher levels, you get spell immunity, prot from align (no mental control), invis, freedom of movement, anti-magic field, and more fun stuff. Rod of sculpting will allow you to have a bubble in the middle where you (and your magical protection) works, but otherwise magic can't get to you. Get arcane sight or true seeing so you can see magic auras and through illusions and what defenses they have up. Building charger I find is the most effective. FINALLY throw on a level of a class from TOB, and add maneuvers to the mix. Sudden leap and shadow blink give you some extra mobility and mind over body/wall of blades can add some extra protection into the mix. Ranger 4/Barbarian 2/Warblade 1/Runescarred Berserker 6 gives you some umpf. 4th level maneuvers, and 3rd level spells on top of your rage and beating things down. You're not too specialized so if you fight not-casters you'll be effective, but when you do fight casters you can be a serious force to be reckoned with.

Also, a counter to spellcasters is other spellcasters. If you strip the opponent of all the magical protection, dismiss the summoned fiends, break through the wards, and bring him down to the friendly fighter/barbarian/everyone in the party to beat him to death, you've done a good job.

[Juntao112]

I think the former as the wizard is the one casting the spell both times. If the familiar had spell/day I could see the argument for the latter.
I believe the wizard is allowed to cast the spell multiple times, as long as he is not casting it on himself multiple times.



Tad follows the wolverine outside, they circle the bar, find no-one and pause under a tree to ponder this predicament. If you cast a spell with verbal components at this point they'd likely hear something and look up (loud clear voice).

Anya will cast Fly and descend upon Tad until she is 50 feet above him and boldly fire an Empowered Scorching Ray.

Attack rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062252/): 25, 20, 19 vs flatfooted AC.

Spell Resistance (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062254/): 29, 25, 36

Scorching Ray Damage (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062256/): 12, 10, 13

Empowered: 18, 15, 19

Total damage: 52

[Pickford]

I believe the wizard is allowed to cast the spell multiple times, as long as he is not casting it on himself multiple times.

Anya will cast Fly and descend upon Tad until she is 50 feet above him and boldly fire an Empowered Scorching Ray.

Attack rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062252/): 25, 20, 19 vs flatfooted AC.

Spell Resistance (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062254/): 29, 25, 36

Scorching Ray Damage (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062256/): 12, 10, 13

Empowered: 18, 15, 19

Total damage: 52

Arguably the talking (verbal) gives away Anya's position (as does the Wolverine's Scent ability) (thus not flatfooted). Anyway, the touch AC is 10 + 4 (dex) + 5 (wis) + 3 (AC bonus) for 22, 1 ray hits for 18 damages.

Tad's turn, he activates the circlet of blasting, (ranged to hit is +13) roll of 6 is 19 which I 'think' will hit (what's her touch AC?) it's automaximized so that's 40 damage.

Afterwards, Tad hastily retreats out of sight under the foliage as does the wolverine.

[Juntao112]

I was unaware that the monk retained his Dex bonus to AC when attacked by invisible opponents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility), or that the wolverine's scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability extends 50 feet up into the air.

[TuggyNE]

Arguably the talking (verbal) gives away Anya's position (as does the Wolverine's Scent ability) (thus not flatfooted).

That's not actually possible; you can't pinpoint without passing the DC by 20 (and, including the +15 for distance, that bumps it up to at least 35), and even if you could it would not allow you to retain Dex to AC.

This also means that, without hitting that full listen check, you can't reasonably target the right position; if you do, there's still a 50% miss chance.

Edit: if my look at Tad's sheet a few pages back is correct, 15 ranks in Listen and +5 Wis adds up to a 30% chance of making that check.

[Emperor Tippy]

Arguably the talking (verbal) gives away Anya's position
Only if the monk makes a DC 80 Listen check to pinpoint invisible creatures. Otherwise the mage has total concealment from the monk. The monk still gets his AC bonus but not Dex to AC.

(as does the Wolverine's Scent ability) (thus not flatfooted). Anyway, the touch AC is 10 + 4 (dex) + 5 (wis) + 3 (AC bonus) for 22, 1 ray hits for 18 damages.
No Dex bonus, Invisibility calls that out. Drop the AC by 4. The reason you aren't flat-footed is because you have already acted in combat so far.

That means that two rays hit for 33 Damage.


I was unaware that the monk retained his Dex bonus to AC when attacked by invisible opponents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility),
Monk loosing his Dex to AC doesn't make him flatfooted or loose him his Monk AC bonus.

or that the wolverine's scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability extends 50 feet up into the air.
Reread it. Thanks to your current form his scent range is tripled.


That's not actually possible; you can't pinpoint without passing the DC by 20 (and, including the +15 for distance, that bumps it up to at least 35), and even if you could it would not allow you to retain Dex to AC.

This also means that, without hitting that full listen check, you can't reasonably target the right position; if you do, there's still a 50% miss chance.

She attacked, Invisibility goes away. No total concealment miss chance at that point.

[Juntao112]

This also means that, without hitting that full listen check, you can't reasonably target the right position; if you do, there's still a 50% miss chance.

He's targeting me after I drop cloak and fire torpedoes.

[Rubik]

That's not actually possible; you can't pinpoint without passing the DC by 20 (and, including the +15 for distance, that bumps it up to at least 35), and even if you could it would not allow you to retain Dex to AC.

This also means that, without hitting that full listen check, you can't reasonably target the right position; if you do, there's still a 50% miss chance.And even if he does, there's nothing that bypasses the -2 penalty to AC and -Dex from being attacked by an invisible creature.

[Rubik]

No Dex bonus, Invisibility calls that out. Drop the AC by 4. The reason you aren't flat-footed is because you have already acted in combat so far.

That means that two rays hit for 33 Damage.You mean drop it by -6 (there's an additional -2 penalty, y'know). All three hit. Full damage.

[TuggyNE]

He's targeting me after I drop cloak and fire torpedoes.

Right, fair enough, I was thinking of greater invisibility for no obvious reason. :smallredface:

Kinda glad I'm not DMing this muddle. :smallyuk:

[Juntao112]

No Dex bonus, Invisibility calls that out. Drop the AC by 4. The reason you aren't flat-footed is because you have already acted in combat so far.

That means that two rays hit for 33 Damage.
If his AC drops by 4, it's 18. As my attack rolls were 25, 20, 19, all three of the rays hit for 52 damage.

(Incidentally, I seem to have forgotten about the +1 to attack rolls from having higher ground. Silly me. I will abide by my current attack rolls as a penance for my error.)


Monk loosing his Dex to AC doesn't make him flatfooted or loose him his Monk AC bonus.
Right, my mistake.


Reread it. Thanks to your current form his scent range is tripled.

I would argue otherwise.


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.


Stench (Ex)
When a troglodyte is angry or frightened, it secretes an oily, musk-like chemical that nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. All living creatures (except troglodytes) within 30 feet of a troglodyte must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be sickened for 10 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same troglodyte’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

I'm not excreting anything except pain, unless troglodyte stench qualifies as a gross physical quality.

[Emperor Tippy]

You mean drop it by -6 (there's an additional -2 penalty, y'know). All three hit. Full damage.

The +2 bonus to the attacker for being invisible is already factored into those attack rolls by Juntao112.


If his AC drops by 4, it's 18. As my attack rolls were 25, 20, 19, all three of the rays hit for 52 damage.
You would be right, I misread the number.


I would argue otherwise.
Read Scent. It specifically says that Troglodyte's can be detected at 3 times range by scent.

[DMVerdandi]

Also, something worth noting to add on to my former post.

Psi characters can take the witch hunter feats without penalty.
STP erudite with those is certifiably a threat to all casters, while keeping their level of variety and power. Even Regular Psion in that effect can put quite the hurting on spellcasters.

It seems like monks are somewhat of a current right now, so if it's a thing (stepping away from the STP Suggestion), having a tashalatora monk with the witch hunter feats, and carmindine monk will be something serious.

As said before, an STP erudite with the right spells learned (Mostly Abjuration) is gonna kick some tush. Pick up Persistent power (3.0 feat), Those WH feats, buff, and kick some butt.

[Juntao112]

Read Scent. It specifically says that Troglodyte's can be detected at 3 times range by scent.


Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

I take that to mean that the troglodyte stench attack (much like the skunk musk attack) must be triggered in order to be detected. Without spraying its musk, a skunk does not have an unpleasant odor, after all. As I lack the ability to generate the troglodyte's stench, I do not believe I am detectable in this fashion.

If you really feel that Alter Self turns you into a troglodyte with a strong body odor after considering my argument, I will defer to your expertise in this matter.

[Pickford]

I was unaware that the monk retained his Dex bonus to AC when attacked by invisible opponents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility), or that the wolverine's scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability extends 50 feet up into the air.


If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet.

The listen check to hear someone speaking is 0. That's instantly hit, and automatically (no action required to know you're there).

Because Anya can't cast scorching ray without speaking Tad and the Wolverine are both aware of her presence which is enough to remove flatfooted.

Juntao112:

(Incidentally, I seem to have forgotten about the +1 to attack rolls from having higher ground. Silly me. I will abide by my current attack rolls as a penance for my error.)

The bonus to hit on higher ground is for melee only. Ranged gets +0 so no worries.

And I forgot this part:

ME:

Tad follows the wolverine outside, they circle the bar, find no-one and pause under a tree to ponder this predicament.

Behind cover: +4 AC

That's 22 even without the +4 to dex (which would have made it 26) so only one hits.

[Rubik]

The listen check to hear someone speaking is 0. That's instantly hit, and automatically (no action required to know you're there).

Because Anya can't cast scorching ray without speaking Tad and the Wolverine are both aware of her presence which is enough to remove flatfooted.You still lose your Dex to AC and an additional -2 penalty. Even if you knew exactly what space he's in, you still take the penalties. There are no exceptions made in the "invisible" condition unless you have blindsight or similar. Please read the rules.


Behind cover: +4 AC

That's 22 even without the +4 to dex (which would have made it 26) so only one hits.You weren't behind cover until after he cast the spell. So, no.

[Emperor Tippy]

The listen check to hear someone speaking is 0. That's instantly hit, and automatically (no action required to know you're there).

Because Anya can't cast scorching ray without speaking Tad and the Wolverine are both aware of her presence which is enough to remove flatfooted.
No it's actually not. To remove flat-footed you have to act in combat. You did that when you summoned the Wolverine. That's why you aren't flatfooted.

Juntao112:


And I forgot this part:

ME:


Behind cover: +4 AC

That's 22 even without the +4 to dex (which would have made it 26) so only one hits.
That's not behind cover.

You need to be incapable of drawing a straight line from your square to her's. Pretty much unless she is sitting right over your tree, that won't be the case. You are also just randomly adding environmental features, this isn't FATE so you don't get to just declare things to exist.

[Rubik]

You need to be incapable of drawing a straight line from your square to her's. Pretty much unless she is sitting right over your tree, that won't be the case. You are also just randomly adding environmental features, this isn't FATE so you don't get to just declare things to exist.We need someone to draw up the battlefield. There's no DM, but we still need something to delineate what's around, just so the players can't cheat.

[eggynack]

We might want some better idea of the area then. I actually don't see why the area around a tavern would necessarily have random trees and shrubs. Although, we could make it that everyone can just arbitrarily declare things exist. "Ha, I've got you now!" "Well, you would, except a mighty whale is about to fall on top of you!" "Good thing there just happens to be a force shield above my head and below the whale." You can't do that. Only wizards can do that.

[Juntao112]

So far, the consensus among the viewers is that Tad takes 52 damage, and I take 40 damage. The wolverine might also smell me. It's not a major point; I'll live either way.

Anya casts Invisibility and moves up 15 feet.

Pickford, as long as you're in the brush, do you mind telling me how big it is? Would, say, a Fireball cover the area you are hiding in?


I actually don't see why the area around a tavern would necessarily have random trees and shrubs.

I find this to be perfectly reasonable and am not going to nitpick Pickford.

[Eldariel]

Worth noting, from Rules Compendium:
Limited Cover
Some objects that don’t occupy a whole square, such as tree trunks and pillars, provide limited cover. If you’re standing in the same square as such an object, you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. The presence of such an object doesn’t otherwise affect your fighting space, because you’re using the object to your advantage when you can.

[eggynack]

Wait, I was wrong. The forest did exist. "The area in front of the bar is cleared but on both sides and behind is a dense forested area." Thus, the monk can hide as he chooses.

[Rubik]

Worth noting, from Rules Compendium:
Limited Cover
Some objects that don’t occupy a whole square, such as tree trunks and pillars, provide limited cover. If you’re standing in the same square as such an object, you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. The presence of such an object doesn’t otherwise affect your fighting space, because you’re using the object to your advantage when you can.Well, that would do NOW, but not when the spell was cast. After all, the obstruction wasn't in the way until Pickford suddenly decided it did after the fact.

Not cool, Pickford.


Wait, I was wrong. The forest did exist. "The area in front of the bar is cleared but on both sides and behind is a dense forested area." Thus, the monk can hide as he chooses.Note that he didn't run out under the trees; he ran out into the cleared area, far as we could tell.

[Juntao112]

I do note the obstruction was not factored into his AC when he initially reported it.


Arguably the talking (verbal) gives away Anya's position (as does the Wolverine's Scent ability) (thus not flatfooted). Anyway, the touch AC is 10 + 4 (dex) + 5 (wis) + 3 (AC bonus) for 22, 1 ray hits for 18 damages.


Also, I do believe I am attacking when he is still outside circling the bar, as per his description of his actions.

[Eldariel]

Well, that would do NOW, but not when the spell was cast. After all, the obstruction wasn't in the way until Pickford suddenly decided it did after the fact.

Mh, I'm not interested in all this. I merely wished to bring up the concept of Limited Cover since it seemed to not be present in this discussion even though it's a game concept. Carry on.

[eggynack]

I suppose it depends on his movement speed compared to his distance to the wooded area. I assume that he went out the front door to get his shot in, and is now running around the bar to find cover. If that distance is greater than the monk's movement speed, Anya should get another shot in. Heh, the monk's high movement speed might theoretically come in handy.

[Pickford]

No it's actually not. To remove flat-footed you have to act in combat. You did that when you summoned the Wolverine. That's why you aren't flatfooted.

Juntao112:


That's not behind cover.

You need to be incapable of drawing a straight line from your square to her's. Pretty much unless she is sitting right over your tree, that won't be the case. You are also just randomly adding environmental features, this isn't FATE so you don't get to just declare things to exist.

It's actually this:


To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

The trees (i.e. branches/foliage) provide such cover easily. If you don't believe me, go outside, walk under a tree in the forest and look up. That's classic cover.

I didn't even put forward the fact that foliage provides concealment:


Concealment encompasses all circumstances where nothing blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy...Typically, concealment is provided by fog, smoke, a shadowy area, darkness, tall grass, foliage, or magical effects that make it difficult to pinpoint a target.

As for the layout, I mean, sorry I'm not skilled with ascii, and that would take an ungodly amount of time to type...

Basically I imagined:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFBBBBFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFCBBBBCFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFCBBBBCFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFCBBBBCFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFCCCCCCFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF F

F = forest
C = cleared (grass/low growth)
R = road
B = bar

edit: Sorry, it'd be better but I suck at typing this stuff.
edit2: Tad moves deeper into the forest and is definitely exploiting cover/foliage at this point. He then applies Wholeness of Body to heal 26 (assuming he took 52 damage).

[Juntao112]

Thanks for the map!

Anya casts Unseen Servant on her turn and orders it to retrieve two candles from her haversack.

Your turn!

[Pickford]

Thanks for the map!

Anya casts Unseen Servant on her turn and orders it to retrieve two candles from her haversack.

Your turn!

I'll take it from that Anya is currently holding a piece of string and a bit of wood then. edit: forgot about eschew materials.

Tad and Wolverine hear this

Tad makes a hide check: (1d20 + 4)
(eew, 7)

And creeps between the trees to try and find Anya (let me know when she'd be 'invisible' (i.e. roll the spot/listen checks (both are +15 skill/+5 wis for +20)

Wolverine takes point, moving well in advance. Let me know if he spots the candles getting waves about ;)

edit: isn't that the 2nd casting of invisibility?

[Rubik]

The candles are invisible, you know.

[Juntao112]

I'll take it from that Anya is currently holding a piece of string and a bit of wood then.
I have decided to eschew the materials.


Tad and Wolverine hear this

Tad makes a hide check: (1d20 + 4)
(eew, 7)
Spot check (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062626/): 8
I believe the distance penalty of roughly -7 prevent me from seeing you.


And creeps between the trees to try and find Anya (let me know when she'd be 'invisible' (i.e. roll the spot/listen checks (both are +15 skill/+5 wis for +20)

I am not entirely sure what you mean; Anya is 65 feet above the ground, but her XY grid coordinates have not changed. You can't spot an invisible creature more than 30 feet away, though.


Actions:

Anya lights one candle on fire and hands it to the Unvisible Servant and mentally commands it to place the candle in the bar. The Unseen Servant will have to open the nearest door in order to do so. Its speed is 15 feet, so this may take a while. Due to range restrictions, it can only move down 50 feet (15 feet above the ground).

[Pickford]

I have decided to eschew the materials.


Spot check (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4062626/): 8


I am not entirely sure what you mean; Anya is 65 feet above the ground, but her XY grid coordinates have not changed. You can't spot an invisible creature more than 30 feet away, though.


True, you can't pinpoint them, but you can become aware of their existence generally. Pinpointing the exact square isn't what's being asked here.




Actions:

Anya lights one candle on fire and hands it to the Unvisible Servant and mentally commands it to place the candle in the bar. The Unseen Servant will have to open the nearest door in order to do so. Its speed is 15 feet, so this may take a while. Due to range restrictions, it can only move down 50 feet (15 feet above the ground).

Ok, so the servant would be ~40' above the ground with a lit candle? Presumably Tad/Wolverine see this.

Rubik: No, items pulled out of containers don't remain invisible, and in this case it wasn't even Anya who's doing it, it was the unseen servant. The Candle, lit or unlit is entirely visible once the servant has removed it from the haversack.

[eggynack]

This battle has gone to a really weird place. I don't even really know what's going on anymore. Like, the monk is hanging out in the woods, and Anya is bored so she's enjoying a candlelit dinner. Or she's planning to set something aflame. I dunno. Either way, it's a weird place.

[georgie_leech]

Ok, so the servant would be ~40' above the ground with a lit candle? Presumably Tad/Wolverine see this.

Rubik: No, items pulled out of containers don't remain invisible, and in this case it wasn't even Anya who's doing it, it was the unseen servant. The Candle, lit or unlit is entirely visible once the servant has removed it from the haversack.

Actually, the candle only becomes visible if it's put down or dropped, neither of which happenned. The light from the candle is still technically visible, but it's really not going to be noticable in daylight, especially in the air.

[eggynack]

Well, at the very least I think it'll become visible when it becomes 10 feet or more from the wizard. That happens pretty fast after the unseen servant takes the thing, so the point is moot.

[Rubik]

This battle has gone to a really weird place. I don't even really know what's going on anymore. Like, the monk is hanging out in the woods, and Anya is bored so she's enjoying a candlelit dinner. Or she's planning to set something aflame. I dunno. Either way, it's a weird place.I...think I know what's going on. The main point is that the monk doesn't. He knows the sorcerer has gone invisible, and now he sees something invisible holding a candle. I assume, anyway.

[eggynack]

I...think I know what's going on. The main point is that the monk doesn't. He knows the sorcerer has gone invisible, and now he sees something invisible holding a candle. I assume, anyway.
No, I got that far. I just don't really know why. To all appearances, this war has become a cold one.

[Juntao112]

Ok, so the servant would be ~40' above the ground with a lit candle? Presumably Tad/Wolverine see this.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/116/BisonOfCourse.jpg

[Rubik]

No, I got that far. I just don't really know why. To all appearances, this war has become a cold one.Oh, no no no. I think I know why it's happening. Just wait it out. It's leading somewhere. You'll see.

[eggynack]

Oh, no no no. I think I know why it's happening. Just wait it out. It's leading somewhere. You'll see.
I think I just figured it out. That does seem pretty neat, I gotta admit.

[Pickford]

Actually, the candle only becomes visible if it's put down or dropped, neither of which happenned. The light from the candle is still technically visible, but it's really not going to be noticable in daylight, especially in the air.

No, you are mistaken.

From the spell invisibility:

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible

The Unseen servant removing the candle from the haversack removes it from the spell, thus it becomes visible again as it has not then been stored in a belonging (of which there are none) of the servant.

Tad remains in cover/concealment relative to the candle carrier and readies an action to use a magic item while the Wolverine saunters out under the candle and growls menacingly at it. (If Anya were telepathic the wolverine would be saying: Come at me bro!)

[Juntao112]

Anya will move down 10 feet so that the Unseen Servant can move the candle into the foliage 10 feet, taking care to move past the wolverine and rustle some branches. She is 55 feet above the ground, and the Unseen Servant is 5 feet above the ground directly below her.

[Rubik]

Tad remains in cover/concealment relative to the candle carrier and readies an action to use a magic item What's the trigger condition? You have to state it when you ready the action. Also, how many rounds does the wolverine summons last? And how many rounds are we down?

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that the wolverine comes from the monk's rust bag of tricks, so it lasts 10 minutes. Additionally, the monk has between zero and nine animals remaining in the bag. I'd say that it's definitely nine, but it's a per week thing, so it might be less.

[TuggyNE]

No, you are mistaken.

From the spell invisibility:

That's exactly what he said, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Simply saying "no, you're wrong, here's the quote you used again, see, you're wrong!" doesn't actually help unless you point out which part of it they got wrong and why.

[Juntao112]

I can't help but think that a Cleric with a Monk's Belt could have done everything Pickford's Monk has done so far, but with less cost and more effectiveness.

[Rubik]

I can't help but think that a Cleric with a Monk's Belt could have done everything Pickford's Monk has done so far, but with less cost and more effectiveness.I think you mean "commoner." Except it would cost the same and be at least as effective. At least commoners get Handle Animal for the wolverine!

[TuggyNE]

I can't help but think that a Cleric with a Monk's Belt could have done everything Pickford's Monk has done so far, but with less cost and more effectiveness.

Amusingly, it would even have better SR at the cost of a spell slot.

[tyckspoon]

I'm pretty sure that the wolverine comes from the monk's rust bag of tricks, so it lasts 10 minutes. Additionally, the monk has between zero and nine animals remaining in the bag. I'd say that it's definitely nine, but it's a per week thing, so it might be less.

Also of note: as best as I can determine the Bag of Tricks summons a regular animal. Which means it is of at best animal intelligence, does not understand speech (except as used to direct it to perform tricks) and must be guided via the Handle Animal skill. Which is a DC 10 Move action skill check to do.

If we were to interpret it generously, you might allow it to act as a Summon Nature's Ally critter, which is guided to 'attack your foes to the best of its ability' by the spell. Getting it to do something different (like ready an action instead of attacking.. I guess maybe that'd be the 'Guard' trick?) would still require said Handle Animal check and action use.

[Juntao112]

So it is decided; the best mageslayer is a cleric.

[eggynack]

So it is decided; the best mageslayer is a cleric.
Eh, I'm not so sure. At the levels we're talking about, the best counter for a wizard is probably another wizard. Clerics are nice and all, but I think that wizards start to really pull ahead by level 13. Clerics are way up there though.

Edit: Also, I've always been fond of the druidic grappling method of mage slaying. It doesn't work against freedom of movement effects, but the druid's summoning is probably the best grappling players have access to. Moreover, even if the grappling fails, the summons can always resort to punching. Shooting a massive amount of cones of cold until the wizard freezes to death is also pretty good in a pinch.

[Rubik]

So it is decided; the best mageslayer is a cleric.Cleric, wizard, artificer, optimized psion, or spell-to-power erudite, I'd say.

Monks are more naysayers than mageslayers.

[Eldest]

Hey, look, Pickford's doing another one of these!

You know, still waiting on your response on that one we started a few months back. Unless you lost interest/conceded.

[Lady Serpentine]

Juntao, any chance you'd be up for facing off against a Rogue 6/Sorcerer 7 with Anya, to see how well that works as a mage-hunter? I might even have someone to provide terrain and rulings...

[TuggyNE]

Hey, look, Pickford's doing another one of these!

You know, still waiting on your response on that one we started a few months back. Unless you lost interest/conceded.

That's right, that one never did seem to keep going.

Maybe it's easier without a DM to give rulings.

[DMVerdandi]

Cleric, wizard, artificer, optimized psion, or spell-to-power erudite, I'd say.

Monks are more naysayers than mageslayers.

Seconded for truth.
Uncle Chan said it best. "Only Magic can Defeat Magic! Yu mo gi gui fai de zhao"

Clerics are good because they have the ability to cast at high levels, awesome spells, and are great at melee.

Wizards because they have the best tools to shut down magic.

Artificers because good grief, they are potent. Magic Items in the hands of an artificer is better than natural casting.

Psions because they have competitive effects in manifestation.

Spell to power erudites cause they are the best arcane casters in the game.


I would also add in Archivist for their similar level of Divine Spell mastery.
For certain builds, they are much better than wizards.

[Juntao112]

Juntao, any chance you'd be up for facing off against a Rogue 6/Sorcerer 7 with Anya, to see how well that works as a mage-hunter? I might even have someone to provide terrain and rulings...
Sure, but you might want to create a seperate thread in the games section.

[Lady Serpentine]

Sure, but you might want to create a seperate thread in the games section.

Alright, just a minute.

Also, no promises Lynette will be up tonight. I need to make some changes to her and Mythweavers seems to crash what I'm on at the moment...

[Juntao112]

One challenge at a time! I still need to see if Pickford can put his money where his monk is.

[Lady Serpentine]

One challenge at a time! I still need to see if Pickford can put his money where his monk is.

Should I hold off on mking the thread, then?

[Juntao112]

Let's wait until this one finishes. I can't use the same sheet for two challenges.

I'd suggest Rogue/Wizard going into Arcane Trickster, though. Seems like it would work better.

[Lady Serpentine]

The reason I was doing Rogue/Sorcerer is that Lynette already exists, and she has her abilities from being the bastard daughter of a local demon lordling, or at least that's what her hometown says he is, so it seemed more fitting she'd have innate magic.

That said, the whole point is to test ideal builds, so maybe I should go for something like that...

[TuggyNE]

One challenge at a time! I still need to see if Pickford can put his money where his monk is.

Now that's a nifty phrase. :smallcool:

[Amoren]

Any chance I can hop onto the challenge train? I'd love to see if a straight rogue (or rogue-archetype character) to see if they'd do as well as I think they could.

[Emperor Tippy]

I bet you that I could kill Anya with my non cheesy monk.

At least he would be dominating this fight seeing as flight is no defense against him and he has permanent See Invisibility.

His 27 AC means that none of those attacks would have hit. Anya would also have taken 3 negative levels by this point which means no more casting 6th level spells (you don't have the minimum caster level any longer), and next round you would loose access to 5th level spells as well.

[eggynack]

I bet you that I could kill Anya with my non cheesy monk.

At least he would be dominating this fight seeing as flight is no defense against him and he has permanent See Invisibility.

His 27 AC means that none of those attacks would have hit. Anya would also have taken 3 negative levels by this point which means no more casting 6th level spells (you don't have the minimum caster level any longer), and next round you would loose access to 5th level spells as well.
I honestly have absolutely no idea what "non-cheesy" means in the context of you saying it. I wouldn't be surprised if it just meant that the monk isn't using infinite wishes for every possible purpose.

[Emperor Tippy]

I honestly have absolutely no idea what "non-cheesy" means in the context of you saying it. I wouldn't be surprised if it just meant that the monk isn't using infinite wishes for every possible purpose.

13 levels of monk, no tricks to get abilities beyond his class or WBL, no long or obscure feat chains, nothing remotely out of line power wise.

It's not my fault that Anya didn't select the low level spell or cheap item that could have protected her from the method of attack used, forcing said monk back onto secondary methods (but even then mine can actually get into melee range of Anya and thus start punching her to death if needs must); although that would probably take a fair while with her AC being what it is.

[Pickford]

Anya will move down 10 feet so that the Unseen Servant can move the candle into the foliage 10 feet, taking care to move past the wolverine and rustle some branches. She is 55 feet above the ground, and the Unseen Servant is 5 feet above the ground directly below her.

The Wolverine moves over and hops to bite the candle.

18 roll (no modifiers taken into account) result should hit that candle easily.

What do you think, opposed str check or does the servant not even bother?

tyckspoon: Mea culpa, I didn't take that into account building the character, but would have if it was known. Juntao112, any objections to my fixing that now?

Eldest: You asked for a mulligan! here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15017152&postcount=36

I guess I'd be happy to do it again, when we have the time.

[eggynack]

The Wolverine moves over and hops to bite the candle.

Heh. I just imagined a wolverine doing a little hop. and I got a pretty serious case of the giggles. What's the 18 for? Is that the jump check? If so, I think that just barely reaches, because 5 feet is a DC 20.

[Juntao112]

13 levels of monk, no tricks to get abilities beyond his class or WBL, no long or obscure feat chains, nothing remotely out of line power wise.

It's not my fault that Anya didn't select the low level spell or cheap item that could have protected her from the method of attack used, forcing said monk back onto secondary methods (but even then mine can actually get into melee range of Anya and thus start punching her to death if needs must); although that would probably take a fair while with her AC being what it is.

If I were facing you, I would, of course, modify the build slightly.


The Wolverine moves over and hops to bite the candle.

18 roll (no modifiers taken into account) result should hit that candle easily.

What do you think, opposed str check or does the servant not even bother?
I don't think the wolverine would attack an inanimate object given its intelligence.


tyckspoon: Mea culpa, I didn't take that into account building the character, but would have if it was known. Juntao112, any objections to my fixing that now?
I have no problem with you modifying your character build whatsoever. Just describe it in detail for me.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think the wolverine would attack an inanimate object given its intelligence.
Cats attack laser pointer dots and bits of string. I think we can allow this one.

[Juntao112]

You No Take Candle!

Ok, assuming that happens,

Anya will have the servant rustle leaves as it moves through the trees to Tad's last known location. She will descend until she is 20 feet above the ground and start searching out the area with the Servant acting as a distraction. The rat has Scent so detecting the monk should be possible.

[eggynack]

Eh, I don't think it makes sense to allow it. Attacking a candle five feet in the air is a pretty specific action. SNA says that the summoned creatures can only attack stuff to the best of their abilities, not jump at air candles. If he does that, it's only reasonable to assume that he jumps at every candle-like object he's presented with, in which case I think you have a new hilarious strategy juntao.

[Juntao112]

Tad remains in cover/concealment relative to the candle carrier and readies an action to use a magic item
By the way, Pickford, you need to state what your readied action is and what condition triggers it.

[eggynack]

We should probably do that kinda thing ToS style. Thus, he can stick the readied action's specifics in a spoiler, which you subsequently do not read. Otherwise, you could theoretically avoid the thing that the action is readied against.

[Rubik]

I still want to know what part of this little scenario makes it "monk vs sorcerer." So far I see nothing that wouldn't be done as well with an NPC class. Pickford? Care to elaborate?

[Juntao112]

He is welcome to use spoilers.

[eggynack]

I still want to know what part of this little scenario makes it "monk vs sorcerer." So far I see nothing that wouldn't be done as well with an NPC class. Pickford? Care to elaborate?
Well, he might have somewhat higher defenses than a commoner. The monk has higher saves, spell resistance, and an above average touch AC. I agree with your opinion in the general sense though. All this theoretical victory would prove is that wealth by level is a nifty thing.