Abjurant Champion and Familiar

[Rakoa]

Have I been asking a lot of questions lately? Yes I have.

This specific question involves the use of a familiar in a gish-type build, one with levels in Abjurant Champion. The gist of it is, with the Improved Familiar feat this gish guy has a Large Monstrous Scorpion as his familiar. I don't know if this is even legal but let's assume the DM allows it.

This Abjurant Champion is going to make use of his familiar as a mount, since it is large. No problem I can see so far. His main combo consists of having his scorpion use Improved Grab on his poor victims, allowing the player to Power Attack + Wraithstrike the now grappled, flatflooted target.

Now, the familiar rules state the following:


Share Spells
At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

For the purposes of spells such as Luminous Armour, Shield, Mage Armour, and so on, can the familiar gain the benefits of these spells if they are cast while the Champion is riding it? Will they benefit from the Abjurant Armour class feature? How the heck does a scorpion use a shield, anyway? The same thing would work for Bull's Strength? Enlarge Person? Can he cast Nerveskitter on both himself and his familiar?

I imagine the answer is yes unless I am understanding a rule incorrectly, but I figure it never hurts to ask.

[Barsoom]

For the purposes of spells such as Luminous Armour, Shield, Mage Armour, and so on, can the familiar gain the benefits of these spells if they are cast while the Champion is riding it? I see no reason why not.



Will they benefit from the Abjurant Armour class feature?
Alas, no.


Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level.Only bonuses granted to you will increase. The scorpion is stuck with the regular bonus.


How the heck does a scorpion use a shield, anyway? Do you mean a metaphysical shield created by a spell of the same name? In this case, hey, it's magic, just make up a bit of plausible fluff such as "a barrier of power appears and ...".


The same thing would work for Bull's Strength? Enlarge Person? Can he cast Nerveskitter on both himself and his familiar?Yes to all.

[GeekGirl]

Have I been asking a lot of questions lately? Yes I have.

This specific question involves the use of a familiar in a gish-type build, one with levels in Abjurant Champion. The gist of it is, with the Improved Familiar feat this gish guy has a Large Monstrous Scorpion as his familiar. I don't know if this is even legal but let's assume the DM allows it.

This Abjurant Champion is going to make use of his familiar as a mount, since it is large. No problem I can see so far. His main combo consists of having his scorpion use Improved Grab on his poor victims, allowing the player to Power Attack + Wraithstrike the now grappled, flatflooted target.

Now, the familiar rules state the following:



For the purposes of spells such as Luminous Armour, Shield, Mage Armour, and so on, can the familiar gain the benefits of these spells if they are cast while the Champion is riding it? Will they benefit from the Abjurant Armour class feature? How the heck does a scorpion use a shield, anyway? The same thing would work for Bull's Strength? Enlarge Person? Can he cast Nerveskitter on both himself and his familiar?

I imagine the answer is yes unless I am understanding a rule incorrectly, but I figure it never hurts to ask.

I could be wrong, but both add an armor bonus. So you can use them, but not at the same time. Well you could, but it wouldn't help anything.

[kardar233]

I could be wrong, but both add an armor bonus. So you can use them, but not at the same time. Well you could, but it wouldn't help anything.

Furthermore, Mage Armor is a Conjuration spell, meaning you wouldn't get your Abjurant Champion bonuses with it anyway. Stick to Luminous Armor.

[Rakoa]

Right, didn't realize Mage Armour wasn't Abjuration. With those questions out of the way, thank you everyone!

[MirddinEmris]

Alas, no.

Only bonuses granted to you will increase. The scorpion is stuck with the regular bonus.



At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar.

You do not cast it on familiar, you cast it on yourself then it affects your familiar, so bonuses granted. Besides, it doesn't say that "this bonuses granted to you", it says "when spells grant you bonus, you can increase value of the bonus" which means you can cast something like Mass Mage Armor and everyone will have this bonus, if we a talking RAW.

Besides, fluff suggests that you and familiar basically count as one creature (after all, you can cast spells with target "You" on your familiar), so the bonuses should be granted anyway.


For the purposes of spells such as Luminous Armour, Shield, Mage Armour, and so on, can the familiar gain the benefits of these spells if they are cast while the Champion is riding it?
Yes, but remember that bonuses with same name doesn't stack - so Mage Armor wouldn't stack with Luminous Armor and actual armor you are wearing as Shield bonuses doesn't stack with shield in your hand


Will they benefit from the Abjurant Armour class feature?
Yes, they will, except Mage Armor (which is up to DM, as RAI it should)


How the heck does a scorpion use a shield, anyway?
He doesn't, it's a spell that protects it's target and not a spell that create shield you can wear.


The same thing would work for Bull's Strength? Enlarge Person? Can he cast Nerveskitter on both himself and his familiar?

Yes, he can.


His main combo consists of having his scorpion use Improved Grab on his poor victims, allowing the player to Power Attack + Wraithstrike the now grappled, flatflooted target.

The only problem with this i having is that while you scorpion grappling someone i don't think you can use him as your mount (though you can just stand near him and this combo will work anyway)


Right, didn't realize Mage Armour wasn't Abjuration. With those questions out of the way, thank you everyone!

Yeah, that's a strange one - the author of the class though that Mage Armor was abjuration too, so he mentioned it in a description and iconic character for this class (who is using sorc's casting) doesn't have Shield in his spell list but still benefits from Abjurant Armor

[Barsoom]

MirddinEmris,

Arguing that it's supposed to affect the familiar is a bit of a strawman, since I never said it doesn't. It just grants a different bonus to the familiar. Abjurant champion's Abjurant Armor class feature specifically states it increases the Armor Class bonus granted "to you". For example, if 5th level Abjurant Champion would cast a hypothetical spell granting "you and allies +2 to Armor Class", he would get +7, and the allies still +2.


fluff suggests that you and familiar basically count as one creature Fluff is fluff.


(after all, you can cast spells with target "You" on your familiar), Yes, you could, but that doesn't make it the same creature as you. It's a different creature, and for the purpose of one particular rule, this distinction is waived.


so the bonuses should be granted anyway.Sorry.

[MirddinEmris]

MirddinEmris,

Arguing that it's supposed to affect the familiar is a bit of a strawman, since I never said it doesn't. It just grants a different bonus to the familiar. Abjurant champion's Abjurant Armor class feature specifically states it increases the Armor Class bonus granted "to you". For example, if 5th level Abjurant Champion would cast a hypothetical spell granting "you and allies +2 to Armor Class", he would get +7, and the allies still +2.

Fluff is fluff.

Yes, you could, but that doesn't make it the same creature as you. It's a different creature, and for the purpose of one particular rule, this distinction is waived.

Sorry.

I also argued about RAW - the way wording of the spell goes, the spell benefits from Abjurant Armor as long as it grants bonus to you, it doesn't exactly says that bonus granted only to you.

[KillingAScarab]

The gist of it is, with the Improved Familiar feat this gish guy has a Large Monstrous Scorpion as his familiar. I don't know if this is even legal but let's assume the DM allows it.There was a version of improved familiar introduced in Complete Warrior which had a table of additional familiars you could have, but with the additional requirement of not just a minimum caster level, but a minimum base attack bonus you must meet. On that table, all of the minimum BAB entries equal the minimum caster level, but there isn't anything explicitly stating that your BAB must equal your minimum caster level under that scheme. It's not an exhaustive list, as it only goes up to 7th CL/+7, but it allows a hippogriff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm), howler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/howler.htm) or winter wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/winterWolf.htm) familiar to, say, a hexblade with practiced spellcaster as early as 7th level. A large monstrous scorpion is probably fine. Still, it's the DM's call.

The only thing I find weird about it is I don't think I have ever seen a mindless vermin made into a familiar, which would have an intelligence score. I understand the INT score is magically granted, I just wonder if there are examples of other nonability INT monsters becoming familiars.

[Rakoa]

All in all some good points on affecting the Scorpion. For the record, I was aware that Mage Armour did not stack with Luminous Armour, but was curious if for some reason one would work and not the other.

The intricacies of Abjurant Armour are interesting. I, myself, am erring on the side of no bonuses, as the wording does seem quite clear on the matter. And since KillingAScarab brought it up, I had never heard of the Improved Improved Familiar list. Using some of those as a balance point, and given the character's current level, a Large Monstrous Scorpion doesn't seem over the top. But you're right about the no intelligence score. I would imagine it just improves as per usual with a familiar, because I don't see anything in the familiar section of the Wizard disqualifying Vermin from becoming familiars.

[KillingAScarab]

I realized later that the supplemental rules chapter of Complete Warrior also introduced constructs which could be made as improved familiars (without relying upon BAB to qualify). They also had some other quirks, like not granting the Alertness feat or gaining improved evasion. Also, they do stay mindless. I would say vermin familiars become smarter and magical beasts, as normal familiars do, and lose the mindless trait. Construct behavior is programmed rather than based upon anything biological, so they can understand the languages the maker does, but a mindless familiar of any other sort might be difficult to deal with. Speak with master might effectively become a continuous speak with plants, only your plant can move and has similar senses.