[P6] How good IS Stealth +20?

[JusticeZero]

Between some enemies i'm using and one of the characters' theorycraft, i'm seeing some rather large numbers for Stealth skills thrown around at sub-epic low levels. I'm not sure what they actually MEAN, and i'm faintly worried that with a bit of maxing things, that they are like the OOTS ninjas or Haley and the Glibness potion. So, exactly how sneaky IS a stealth bonus of nearly +20 in a P6 setting?

[Menzath]

when fighting(sneaking by) a creature with scent, tremor sense, blind sight, or blind sense... almost worthless.
Note, creatures with the animal type just about all have scent. so give your humanoid NPC's some guard dogs or something.

[Urpriest]

Invisibility gives +20 Stealth when moving. Since it's a 2nd level spell, it's easily accessible in P6. So that's one thing to consider.

[Mato]

Stealth +20 lets you...

* Ignore your opponent's d20 roll. (srd)
They have ranks in Spot? They fail. 50% miss vs attack rolls, opponents are denied Dex-To-AC, additional +2 to attack rolls, cannot be directly targeted by any effect.

* Mitigate the -20 penalty to concealed attacking. (sniper/faq)
If you stand in a shadow and chuck a sword at someone if they cannot overcome your Hide-20 they are unsure of where the attack even originated from.

* Jump from one cover to another 20ft away. (complete adventurer)
By attempting a -5 penalty per 5ft you can dart from one cover to the next while maintaining your stealth. Even if it's broad daylight with a mirrored floor.

* Hide others (epic level handbook)
with a -30 penalty you can hide other creatures. For the most part team work benefits are superior to this, however for hte teamwork check each creature hiding needs ranks in Hide and when using this epic option your ally's armor check and Dexterity are of no factor.

* Vs Scent?
Scent has a 10ft range and does not negate concealment, only pin-points where square your opponent is in.

* Vs Blindsense?
As Scent but increased range.

* Vs True Seeing and See Invisible?
Those affects to not negate concealment nor give bonuses to Spot hidden creatures.

* Vs Blindsight? (SRD-only, PF & expended will have a larger list)
E6?
Animals: Porpoise, Whale.
CR 1: Darkmantle, Grimlock, Puppeteer.
CR 2: Flesh Harrower (via Puppeteer, above).
CR 3: Assassin Vine.
CR 5: Wraith.
If you cannot beat that list as an E6 character, then accept the death as a chance to reroll your character. Also, beware of dragons. For you taste good with ketchup.

[Slipperychicken]

So, exactly how sneaky IS a stealth bonus of nearly +20 in a P6 setting?

It means the average human (zero spot ranks, 11 Wisdom= +0 Perception) cannot possibly defeat your stealth skill before other modifiers apply.


Do remember that you must still satisfy the conditions for using Stealth, or else that modifier is worthless. You do not have Hide in Plain Sight or means of defeating other senses, so it is powerful when used properly, but far from invincible.

[JusticeZero]

So, basically the ninjas in that they can dance around right next to an ordinary person without worrying that they'll be spotted?

[Crake]

So, basically the ninjas in that they can dance around right next to an ordinary person without worrying that they'll be spotted?

they still need cover/concealment to hide. Without that any hide bonus is irrelevant unless they also have hide in plain sight

[Baroncognito]

So, basically the ninjas in that they can dance around right next to an ordinary person without worrying that they'll be spotted?

Not unless they have hide in plain sight. You still need something to hide in.

[Gavinfoxx]

You still want invisibility, hide in plain sight, camouflage, something to block scent, tremorsense, blindsight, or blindsense, etc. etc. etc.

[JusticeZero]

Probably an item that has Concealing Amorpha then..

[Slipperychicken]

Not unless they have hide in plain sight. You still need something to hide in.

Is this even possible in P6?

[Baroncognito]

Is this even possible in P6?

If prestige classes are allowed, Shadow Dancer gets Hide in plain sight at level 1. A Rogue 5/Shadow Dancer 1 is pretty easy to manage. However, it's got a three feat requirement, so a halfling can't have Skill Focus(Stealth) or Stealthy.

A human could have one of the two but would be missing out on the size bonus to stealth.

[Ravens_cry]

Ninja 2 can get +20 when moving for 2 rounds per 1 ki point, or until thier first attack, with every additional Ninja level adding +1 round.
So . . . no, I wouldn't say it is great. Decent, but not great.

[Mato]

The dark creature templete (tome of magic) offers HiPS for +1 LA. For 10.8k you can pick up a magic item that grants the template for one hundred rounds a day. For 22k it's permanent.

Also Darkstalker (races of stone) forces even blindsight sporting creatures to make listen/spot checks against you. So really only splatbook oddities (such as touchsight, mindsight or lifesense) on custom monsters are of any concern.

[Edge of Dreams]

Let's just do some quick math:


18 dex = +4
6 ranks
+3 for being a class skill
+3 for Skill Focus feat


That's a total skill bonus of +16 without even really trying to optimize. Skill bonuses totaling about +20 at level 6 should not be surprising at all if that is the character's main focus.

A character with that kind of stealth score can avoid being seen pretty well if he know what's he's doing, but if he stands out in the middle of an empty field on a sunny day, he'll still be easy to spot because there's no cover.

I would only be concerned about a character that has that high or higher Stealth score, plus a source of concealment, Hide In Plain Sight ability, or Illusion spells of some sort. Even then, if they've dumped that much of their character resources into it, they deserve to reap the reward.

[only1doug]

Is this even possible in P6?

A drow or Warlock L1 (with darkness invocation) can do it with Blend into Shadows feat (from Drow of the underdark) that would be E6 of course, I guess P6 is a pathfinder variant so only if 3.5 material is allowed.

[Spuddles]

+20 seems big, but it just means you succeed on stealth missions vs. most creatures. Characters succeeding on skill checks is usually pretty good, especially considering that that stealth just means mundane invisibility- it basically grants a free attack vs. flat footed in a combat before having to reposition.

A 6 HD creature with perception as a class skill and 12 wisdom has +10 to notice the sneaky character. So he most likely won't notice getting snuck up on, but if the sneaky character attacks, he'll have a +10 to see the character while the sneaker has a +0 to hide after his attack.

[Spuddles]

A drow or Warlock L1 (with darkness invocation) can do it with Blend into Shadows feat (from Drow of the underdark) that would be E6 of course, I guess P6 is a pathfinder variant so only if 3.5 material is allowed.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.html

[CTrees]

Let's just do some quick math:


18 dex = +4
6 ranks
+3 for being a class skill
+3 for Skill Focus feat


That's a total skill bonus of +16 without even really trying to optimize. Skill bonuses totaling about +20 at level 6 should not be surprising at all if that is the character's main focus.

How about a goblin?

Dex 20 (start 17, +2 racial, +1 at lvl 4): +5
Six ranks: +6
Class skill: +3
Small: +4
Racial: +4

We're at +22 without any feats, traits (you can get at least +1 more there), or items (a cloak of elvenkind is +5 and only costs 2500gp, which isn't beyond an E6/P6 budget). With effort, I'd expect low 30s to be doable at level six, before getting into spells (*cough*Invisibility*cough*) or the additional feats given for higher XP in E6

[Piggy Knowles]

* Vs Scent?
Scent has a 10ft range and does not negate concealment, only pin-points where square your opponent is in.

I'm not sure if this is different in Pathfinder, but in 3.5, Scent has a 30' range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) (which doubles to 60' if the opponent is upwind, or halves to 15' if the opponent is downwind.)

[Seharvepernfan]

If you're asking how it would actually look in person, that depends on what cover/concealment the stealthy character has, and how many ranks/size-bonus-points they have in stealth.

Assume the spotter/listener has no ranks, 10 wis, and no bonuses. Let's assume the person being snuck up on is in a forest with big enough trees to offer concealment. The sneaker has say, 6 ranks in stealth, and is a halfling (+4 size bonus) and can therefore move 10ft. from cover and remain hidden. This person can just basically appear next to you, and you'll never have a chance to notice. It doesn't matter how much you look around, or how careful you are (EDIT: Unless you are more than 10ft. from the nearest cover). The DM could give a +2 bonus or something to somebody who knows what to look for, and there may or may not be other modifiers (like crunchy leaves or something).

Basically, if there is any darkness/smoke/bushes/trees/pillars/whatever, you'll never see the person, no matter how hard you look, before they want to be seen. You'll always walk right past them or never be looking in the right spot. I imagine that, in person, this would probably drive you crazy. If this was a common thing for an npc to experience, they might dump ranks into perception asap, even cross-classed, because they just hate having this happen to them.

[137beth]

The dark creature templete (tome of magic) offers HiPS for +1 LA. For 10.8k you can pick up a magic item that grants the template for one hundred rounds a day. For 22k it's permanent.

Also Darkstalker (races of stone) forces even blindsight sporting creatures to make listen/spot checks against you. So really only splatbook oddities (such as touchsight, mindsight or lifesense) on custom monsters are of any concern.

There is no such thing as LA in P6:smallsigh:

Now, a question for some E/P6 players:
How do you guys handle WBL for characters with extra feats beyond normal 6th level? I suppose you could just assume the WBL of 6+#feats, or 6+#feats/5 (though the latter option would mean you would need substantially reduced treasure for each encounter). How much gold is available could substantially alter the ease of getting +20 stealth.

[Baroncognito]

Okay, this seems like a good place to bring this up:

What does Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth) accomplish?

[TuggyNE]

Okay, this seems like a good place to bring this up:

What does Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth) accomplish?

You can try to hide while someone is looking right at you? That's not normally possible, as the Normal: line indicates.

[only1doug]

Okay, this seems like a good place to bring this up:

What does Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth) accomplish?


You can try to hide while someone is looking right at you? That's not normally possible, as the Normal: line indicates.

But only in Normal or bright light conditions (not in dim lighting or darkness).

[Talieth]

But only in Normal or bright light conditions (not in dim lighting or darkness).

If do think you can try to hide when in dim lighting or darkness, but only if the creature/person you try to hide from doesn't have darkvison (or low light vision in case of dim lighting)

Found in the "Others Rules" => Vision and Light : (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalRules.html#_vision-and-light)


In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.


The Hellcat Stealth just allow you to make the same check in normal or bright light with a -10 penalty. It is the poor-man HIPS (or no-PRC dip) feat.

[cerin616]

+20 hide isn't that powerful at all. You still need to maintain cover to hide(unless you have hide in plain sight). You cant move behind cover and hide if you are being observed(unless you have hellcat or something similar). You can still be smelled and such (unless you have darkstalker).

On top of that, you still need to make move silently checks, you still set off any warding spells (which can be all over the place at higher levels)

And on top of that, in order to sneak past things he either needs to go alone or hope everyone in his party can sneak just as well.
And to use it in combat the enemy has to be susceptible to sneak attack (oozes, undead, or armor with fortification effects.)

[CTrees]

@Cerin616 - remember that Pathfinder combined Hide and Move Silently into a single skill (Stealth), and somewhat expanded the list of tragets susceptible to sneak attack (corporeal undead and constructs, for instance). Your other comments remain valid, of course.

[JusticeZero]

The outer limits for my game looks a bit like Dex 28, Stealth 6 ranks plus 3 class skill, Stealthy, Skill Focused which is 23, plus Chameleon for 33, and probably more gimmics involving Shards or feats or synergies i'm forgetting.

[Grayson01]

If prestige classes are allowed, Shadow Dancer gets Hide in plain sight at level 1. A Rogue 5/Shadow Dancer 1 is pretty easy to manage. However, it's got a three feat requirement, so a halfling can't have Skill Focus(Stealth) or Stealthy.

A human could have one of the two but would be missing out on the size bonus to stealth.

A halfling could easily have enough feets to have shadow dancer at 6th. One way is Flaws. Or Strongheart Halfling subrace 0 lvl adj and they get an extra feet at first level.