New DM looking for general help [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Vellus

2013-05-21, 07:39 PM

My players (THAT'S YOU GUYS. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE

D. STAY OUT. ...Even though you're watching me type this.)

I'm a new DM. That means I need help planning a few things. We had our first session last friday and we did a boat encounter (taking extra care on my end to ensure nobody falls over into the water. Though one guy made it tough on me. Why would you climb the huge railings? WHY WOULD YOU FU- carrying on then.) against a bunch of Kobolds. We started at level 3, so it was a fairly easy encounter (even if two or three of them got below half health...).

Now I'm starting to have the players in the city. I'd like to keep them here for at least this coming session and the next, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any tips for how to set up an encounter versus, say, a bunch of thugs which would be a decent challenge for a party of 6 at 3rd level? (lower-mid op characters, save 1 who's focusing primarily on cc effects) Also general ideas for plots that can happen inside the city which can lead into longer-term things? I have a few ideas on where it could go and plan for it to really be based on what the players decide to do - their actions, I hope, will naturally lend themselves toward one of the like eight or so plot ideas I have.

Any general tips for getting players to interact without being *****? One guy's character is an *******, which okay, but his character is also technically the party leader and I can tell that the other players are going to tire of it. I don't want to have to kick a player out, I will if it gets to that point, but. It's like the player created a character that doesn't want to work with anyone. Sure, it's a neat character idea, but I have no idea how he plans to play a group game with someone who thinks everyone else on the team is idiots and commands them to 'stay out of my way' - should I ask him to revise his character?

ddude987

2013-05-21, 07:52 PM

But I don't wanna stay out!
Anyways, yeah that player is certainly not the nicest person .
Also help on general city plots would be appretiated. Well I'm not allowed to view this again :P tata!

Barsoom

2013-05-21, 08:35 PM

I gave this advice on another thread, and it bears repeating here: if a player makes a character that doesn't belong in a party, the rest of the party can, completely in-character, simply refuse to work with them and force that player to either change their character or sit out.

You, as a DM, have full right, in fact the duty, to discuss with the player any concerns you have about his character beforehand. Just try not to be a dictator about it.

Vellus

2013-05-22, 01:29 AM

Thank you for the input Barsoom. Any ideas on city encounters? I don't want to resort to just using something totally out of place in a city, but I admit to not being all that familiar with the creatures in the monster manual.

Regitnui

2013-05-22, 02:21 AM

There are a number of city-appropriate encounter suggestions in one of the DGMs. My personal favourite is the magical duel spilling onto the streets, where the PCs either run, get people out of the way or end the fight.

Fyermind

2013-05-22, 02:24 AM

Do you have Cityscape? It has fantastic suggestions and if your players haven't memorized it, you can directly follow exactly what it says.

Thieves world is also a great source of ideas.

So are most action TV shows set in cities.

For making thugs scary, a group of half orc Thug sneak attack fighters (2 alternate class features for fighters found in Unearthed Arcana) get a few extra skills and skill points and sneak attack 2d6 in place of heavy armor proficiency and bonus feats. two of them per PC should be enough to terrify them. Give the saps. You can quite likely capture the party and or steal something they care about to keep them in the city for a while. Even if you don't, nothing scares PCs like enemies dealing nonlethal damage.

If you don't want the battle to be so skewed against the PCs in terms of CR, Rogue 1 // Barbarian 1 half orcs get 1d6 sneak attack, decent HP and skills, rage, and can ACF rage and fast movement away for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce. They needn't outnumber the PCs. If they get the drop on the PCs from ambush they could easily drop several PCs, and without it they still flank hard for several attacks.

Simple warriors from the DMG will be harder to make scary. I'd suggest having them focus on disarming and running while others use nets, saps, and caltrops combined with the trip action to slow pursuit.

Sylthia

2013-05-22, 02:32 AM

What's this city like? You could have a Thieves' Guild running the streets, and have some rogues try to take out the party for some transgression. Is there much wildlife around? Maybe some wolves are becoming aggressive and starting to attack the townsfolk. Is there a prominent magical presence in the city? Maybe there's rumors of wandering zombies that come out at night.

Azoth

2013-05-22, 02:48 AM

If ebberon books are useable a few rogues with Magical Training can be scary. Getting the use of three cantrips a few times for the encounter is evil in the right hands.

Ghost sound to lead them away from a main road, dancing lights to mimic torches, and a waiting ambush in a dark alley. It also messes with your casters' heads if they think that their are enemy spell casters in the group. They will usually try to hand back to counter the enemies tactics.

Also, judiscious use of alchemical items. A few tanglefoot bags and thunderstones will screw up party dynamics without causing any noticeable damage to the city.

Vellus

2013-05-23, 01:20 AM

Hmm! Thank you guys. I'll use those ideas. Lemme see, so a group of thugs, probably carrying items which can be looted from them (if they aren't used) that can trip up or damage the pcs. Probably start by sending about 8 at them, if they handle that easily, send another bunch at them? They'll probably be a mix of crossbow wielders and thugs wielding shortswords or something like that. I'll probably give them rogue pc levels, probably no more than two. Why do you recommend half-orcs, specifically, if I might ask?

I don't remember how saps work and I can't off the top of my head recall where they are in the rulebooks, though I assume it's in the player's handbook. Quick summary?

Sylthia

2013-05-23, 01:26 AM

Vellus

2013-05-23, 01:56 AM

That... makes a lot of sense, actually. Hmm.

Also, I was thinking of drawing (with my near nonexistent drawing skills) a general layout of the city on our wet-erase mat prior to the start of the meet. I've got a layout mostly set up in my notebook for what it looks like, but I think I might be forgetting some general 'areas' that would be necessary to the function of a port city.

I have: The docks
slums
merchant lane
city hall/senate
barracks (contains the city's militia as well as cells to contain prisoners. Contains lower-cells which are inside an anti-magic bubble for practitioner prisoners)
A residential, middle-class area
Residential area, upper-class/nobles, near the outskirts of the town.

...****, I forgot to designate a particular type of politics for the place. Damn, I'll have to think about that. Urgh, prolly going to have to postpone the next meet, too. Though, that's for other reasons, most of which are "I'm moving this week and am busy packing my entire house up."

Also, how would you guys recommend thinking about homebrewed stuff, such as classes or races? Any general rules or tips or threads you could link me to (Since many useful threads tend to get shunted around a lot in the page listing, from what I can see) which could help me create, say, an npc-only race of humanoids? I have a few npcs (and indeed, an entire culture) which don't really fit any of the current races and so I was thinking of homebrewing one. I've got time to work on that; they won't become relevant at all for a number of sessions. But I'd like to have it worked out ahead of time.

Miranius

2013-05-23, 11:57 AM

I guess i`ll throw in my two copper pieces as well :smalltongue:

About handling a non-cooperative character (if not player)...

:smallannoyed: circumstances that make a character reliant on others (for example: a sickness/condition that isn`t simply cured by dropping 50 gp at the nearest temple, being charged with a crime and needing witnesses / character references, any kind of encounter/challenge that can not be forced with aggression...) should cure the PC of his egocentric ways
:smallannoyed: if not, just play out the harsh consequences of his actions (just imagine: imprisoned in a cell next to a bard who will not stop singing the medieval version of pokerface. ever.)..., maybe tipping off the other players beforehand that he should reap what he sowed
:smallannoyed:if that fails, take the player aside and explain the concept of a GROUP-game to him and how EVERYBODY (and, YES, that means the players too) contributes to the fun for each other or lack of thereof.
:smallannoyed: if all above fails, well then the player just wants to see how far he can go to get his way and you should cut him loose, for the good of the rest of the group and before players who actually WANT to play together leave.

About a city-based adventure and campaigns, a few ideas from the top of my head....
:smallamused: encounter: a group of thugs (if you want to be obvious) or just guys chase a citizen, your PC`s notice. If they intervene: cue to blossoming rivaly between less-then-legal groups (thieves guilds, protection-racketeers, smugglers, drug dealers (walter white, anyone?). If they don`t: guess whom they will encounter when they next leave an inn at night?
:smallamused: there`s an awesome idea floating arond the web called "the city built around the tarrasque", here`s the toned-down version of it: a soup-kitchen in the slums uses creatures with regeneration (trolls?) as source of food for their yummy stew(depending on the towns allignment, decide if people know). adventure hooks: poor little troll-kid looks for mommy, kitchen needs more trolls or healers complain of strange sickness spreading in the slums...
:smallamused:a practicioners competition will be held in town, but the guard expects attacks from militant magic-haters. play the security guard / investigator / terrorist mercenary angles.....
:smallamused: people report strange happenings in location X, as it turns out (or maybe not), there is: a birth of a genius loci / a group of Dryads have followed the remains of their livewood-trees (now furniture) to a traders warehouse and are not happy / magician dumping magic waste and mutating the neighbourhood / ....
:smallamused: a seaborn race that up to now traded with the city decided to cut the middleman and are progressively killing trade- and dock-involved people and replace them with disguised spys (bodysnatchers, anyone?)
:smallamused: town hall is haunted, which later turns out not to be malicious but a ghost of a former mayor who tries to stop his corrupt successor
:smallamused: progressively, all the guards and militia resign their duty to become vow-of-peace and nonviolence monks, turns out not to be divine intervention but a mind-magic plot from rival city to disarm their military
:smallamused:local well-to-do people have com upon scrolls for rituals (i think they are explained in unearthed arcana...) and use them to (maybe unforseen) effects...
:smallamused: a druid or somesuch awakens pumped up vines or versions of these: (Tansy ragwort: Toxic to horses and cattle, tansy ragwort has spread throughout the Northwest. It can be tough to identify, and control measures such as mowing can make the problem worse if not done at the proper time.
Giant hogweed: Growing up to 15 feet tall, this weed looks like the wildflower Queen Anne's lace "on steroids," says Shaw. This is a perfect example of why you should never touch any weed you don't know, since the sap from giant hogweed causes painful blisters. Children using its stem as a spy scope have burned their faces.) that stay immobile at day and spread and multiply at night, until the time is right....
:smallamused: This little lady sets up in town http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

About politics:
:smallcool:is it a city-state or part of a larger empire? Do the political conditions of the two (if they exist) match? If not, can that be a source of tension/conflict/gloriousWarAndSLOUGHTER!!:.... sorry:smallredface::smallbiggrin:
:smallcool:is it a theocracy, rule of mages, council of elders/merchants/nobles, a royal family, a democracy, does a wink of pelor`s pinky-finger decide the chosen leader or a mental/physical battle royale?
:smallcool:the less stable these circumstances are, the more ways you have to tie in your players if you want to.
:smallcool: when in doubt, i`d go with: (too) young inherited ruler is the face, while the actual (villainous) power is the clerical advisor/council/mother behind the throne.

About homebrews: whatever you want, as long as it is BALANCED. just think of what actually could have an organic (or undeadly-organic) place in the world. If you can answer with a yes, go with it.

Alrighty, i think i have written way too much, but i think i covered most of your bases and given you some ideas to work with :smallsmile::smallsmile:

Have fun and let us know how your next sessions go:smallbiggrin:

Vellus

2013-05-23, 04:40 PM

Thanks for the response! And as to whether they fit the world; yes, they do. It is a question of how to know if its balanced or not. Mm. Actually, I'll probably make a template. Yeah that should work. I'll look up the template rules.

I appreciate your input! It'll help immensely.

Miranius

2013-05-24, 04:44 AM

Do you plan to introduce only one new race/faction or what is it that you are actually trying to do?
About balancing, at least in the most general attributes, depending on how outstanding you want those carrying your "template" to be, i found this to be a nice comparison for standard-mooks: (it is from a somewhat different gaming system, but transfers to D&D quite well...) http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Mooks.pdf
As more prominent characters or mini-bosses, just stay clear of too many save-or-suck effects and try to balance damage and survivability, everything else is flavor.

dysprosium

2013-05-24, 09:51 AM

I don't remember how saps work and I can't off the top of my head recall where they are in the rulebooks, though I assume it's in the player's handbook. Quick summary?

Saps deal non lethal damage. When a character's hp reaches 0 or below due to non lethal damage they are knocked unconscious. And I believe that sneak attack can be used with saps for added deadliness.

Non lethal damage should be explained in the PHB in the combat section.

Deox

2013-05-24, 10:12 AM

Saps deal non lethal damage. When a character's hp reaches 0 or below due to non lethal damage they are knocked unconscious. And I believe that sneak attack can be used with saps for added deadliness.

Non lethal damage should be explained in the PHB in the combat section.

Nitpick. Nonlethal damage should be kept as a separate total from current hp. When nonlethal equals current hp, the person becomes staggered and when exceeding their hp, falls unconscious.

Vellus

2013-05-27, 11:57 AM

Thanks again for all the input! It really helped me plan the city encounters I was going for. Except the players then went to some caves I wasn't planning on them going to yet. I hoped the dire bear would scare them off, but... they actually managed to kill it. At lv 3 and with half the party missing. I awarded bonus rp xp to the party and extra to the guy who tool the bears claw as a trophy. (Handed it out at the end).

The problem guy remains a problem. Refusing to work within the party and making it less fun. So going to talk to him about that.

Thoughts on how to do this?

Sorry for taking so long to respond; spent past few days moving my house.

Miranius

2013-05-27, 12:50 PM

ddude987

2013-05-27, 01:12 PM

In addition to what was already said? hmmm... I`d just say exactly how you formulated it. "Dude, you?re not adding to the fun of the group, you`re subtracting. If you need to have some solo-spotlight, play CoD at home, but HERE it`s a group game..." etc...

How willing are you to resort to harsher methods/consequences?

How do you think the player would respond to nasty in-game consequences and/or RL-talk? I could give you more specific help if i would know more about the player and his/her behaviour in and out of game.

Vellus doesn't have easy access to internet at the moment so I will respond. The problem player insisted on building his own character. It seems that he has misconceptions about the game as he keeps saying things like "I don't care if I have 8 strength I'm a warforged so I'm stronger than your 8 strength." (that was paraphrased a bit for context)

He complains and whines whenever his character takes damage because he is a tank and shouldn't be... his AC is SOOOO high (17). He also refuses to participate with the rest of the group and instead sought out a job in the city were in and told us to mind our business for the next 7 days while he works.

I offered to help make his character more effective so he wouldn't complain or feel underpowered but he got mad at me, as usual, and said "I don't want YOUR help." He didn't answer when I asked whose help he would be willing to accept. I made the rest of the parties characters as it was their first time playing and they are all loving the game though they too are annoyed at the problem player.

Also in terms of consequences, booting him out of the game is only a last resort. He generally does not respond well to talking as he can be sort of elitist when dealing with games and is to proud (or stubborn?) to ask for/accept help. I do not believe he would respond well to negative reinforcement.

Vellus

2013-05-27, 01:16 PM

Well to start with he refused to put down his laptop and after that he tried to railroad the other players to his personal character's plot. After when the party decided to find somewhere else to go, he refused to go along with them. That lead to the three party members left over having to fight a dire bear alone. When he was thus irrelevant to play he muttered under his breath and played on his laptop. Tempted to say that he might as well just leave if he isn't having fun.

Edit: thanks Di.

buttcyst

2013-05-27, 01:58 PM

I have recently dealt with a "problem guy" in the campaign I am DMing. he created a totemist/cleric/saphire heirarch and completely outshined the entire rest of the party, almost to the point where they weren't even needed and it wasn't fun for the players. The first time we looked at his character sheet we nitpicked it to death and read/re-read the magic of incarnum and found that everything was in order and he was acting within his capabilities and alignment restrictions.

Seeing the there really wasn't any actual wrong doing I designed the next few encounters to be handled with particular time contingencies; if at night, NPC attacks and 50% chance of triggering a more difficult encounter with 10 dire wolves, 10 werewolves, and a werewolf lord... if durring day, NPC talks peacefully and no chance of second encounter. I then set an encounter with a forrest haunt for earlier the same night, the NPC had the bit of dryad that triggered the haunt. they were supposed to take care of the haunt, find out what it was, go back to town and talk to the fletcher who gave them the quest initially and find out about the NPC south of town. sleep over night at the inn and then head out to the NPC the next day, peacefully obtain the dryad piece, and then get a quest to head north and deal with the werewolves later that night.

I designed that way because the main problem everybody had with the totemist was his abuse of the dimension door as a move action an unlitmited amount of times per day ability, he made it so that there was no time for the druid to collect spell components, he almost forced the paladin into atonement through use of several necromantic abilities, the monks were plotting a way to permanently ground him via severing limbs, and the fighter was forced into such a small role that he hardly knew his characters abilities at level 12.

That session went as planned, I kinda knew they would be getting into the big fight and not avoiding any of it. it was a disaster, half of the party died, including the totemist... but at the hands of the druid after he did some crazy thing that acted like a turn chaos but it destroyed chaotic creatures, which killed 2 of the party members because they were within the radius, it also destroyed all of the remaining bad guys including the werewolf lord. the session almost ended in a literal fist fight. I felt really bad for setting it up that way but it triggered another look into the magic of incarnum book to find out what on earth he had just done. Turns out he just plain cheated to end the fight.

*I must add that I plan pretty far ahead sometimes and this was one of them, before this session happened I was knees deep in designing a dungeon for the party to go into next. In designing it, I made it all work together in such a way that each party member would need their abilities in order to navigate the various areas within. I was going for party unification through forced cooperation, a much better approach than group punishment*

After the discovery of the cheating it was very easy to just tell him he was not welcome in the group any longer.

how you deal with him is up to you, I enjoy giving NPCs emotions such as hurt feelings if a player tends to be rude, or they can be extremely helpful if approached and handled correctly. make doors that destroy armor when someone trys to kick it down, make traps with a low move silent DC where if it is failed, the trap breaks and is rendered permanently useless. If you have a town destroyer, give him a part of town that "needs" to be destroyed. They walk into the inn and the barfight is already going on, or there are 3 drunken masters in the middle of town having a destructive drinking contest (good for any aspiring monks BTW).

Just remember, you can't control or predict what characters will do in a given situation ( I want to put my bag of holding over the giants head!... WTF??!), but you have complete control over every aspect of the NPCs attitudes, the weather, and what happens next.

Miranius

2013-05-27, 02:23 PM

Alright, that`s more information to work with, though the situation seems quite difficult.
So the player won`t respond (well) to negative consequences to his actions in or out of game, sees himself as above criticism, acts like a 12 year old and is not willing to learn the ins-and-outs of the game. Beautiful...:smallyuk:

As i see it, you have to make the following decision: are you willing to bet that the gentle-sloped learning-curve of positive feedback will get to him? And, to add to that, in time BEFORE other new players will be fed up with the game thanks to him?

A few years ago i played with a goup of about 5 players, one of which a tiresome tantrum-throwing rules-lawyering chauvinist. As it was, the DM never "quite" hit the point where he threw him out for almost 2 years.
Whe he hit that point, we must have gained-and-lost about 4 funny, motivated and interested female players that just couldn`t stand him, even though they loved the game. Expecially newbies to the game won`t stand for that treatment long, and rightfully so.

To sum it up: are you feeling lucky enough with him to risk the fun and coherence of your group? Your choice as the DM. My advice: seek a make-or-break moment out of game with him. If he can`t or won`t cope with basic social situations, a group-therapy should be more the place for him then a group-game.

GoddessSune

2013-05-27, 03:53 PM

how to set up an encounter versus, say, a bunch of thugs which would be a decent challenge for a party of 6 at 3rd level?

Sneaky DM trick:Make three encounters. One you think is 'balanced', one that is 'weak' and one that is 'powerful'. Use the 'balanced' one, but be ready to switch in a second if the encounter is too easy or too tough.

You can do this one the fly too...buy just giving the foes items or taking things away from them. If the thugs are too weak, have them all drink potions of bull's strength. If they are too tough, let them fail a save or make a mistake.

Any general tips for getting players to interact without being *****?

You need to talk to the play. Sure his character is fun and all, but as soon as it disrupts the game it is no longer fun. So, yes, have him scale back or change the character.

ArcturusV

2013-05-27, 04:09 PM

More so than other encounters, Terrain is the real key I find to making good urban encounters. There should almost never be a "big empty space" inside a city unless... I dunno, you're talking about the town square after dark when no one is there. And terrain features are a big home team advantage.

Example:

In an open field, your party runs into a group of 6 Goblin rogue 3s with Bows, Saps, and Daggers.

With a level 3 party this encounter would likely be pretty boring. Not saying it'll be a cakewalk. Particularly with Flanking Sneak Attacks someone might get chewed up pretty badly. But it's not likely to be "difficult" or memorable. Remember that Difficulty and "Did someone get chewed up" are two different metrics. You can end up with a Difficult fight where no one was seriously injured. Or end up with a fight where everyone is on their last legs but it was pretty boring and forgettable.

Now take the same 6 level 3 Goblin Rogues, and put them in a city environment. Instead of an open field the encounter takes place on a busy bazaar area. There's lot of crowds which function as Difficult Terrain. One of the Goblin Rogues picks a coin purse off a player, and starts running. You got an instant chase scene going on. Goblin Rogue ducks down an alleyway to try to escape. Your players think "AH HA! Open ground, we'll catch him and run him down now!"

... and they turn the corner to find an alley clogged with garbage, crates, barrels. And behind all this cover is 5 buddies with bows all aimed to Sneak Attack them during the surprise round.

Now yeah, they get chewed up as they fly around that corner. Also it becomes a more difficult fight. The Alley is a natural choke point with all the clutter in it. The enemies have cover which makes it harder to just ranged smite them with AoE spells or bow attacks. Being spread out over the alley means that the players aren't going to flank and swarm single goblins one at a time, which slows down the fight.

All in all, it becomes a more difficult slog. Players will still probably win it. But it won't be a cake walk and they are going to remember that Goblin Gang that stole from them and ambushed them like that.

And all because of clutter and terrain, more than any other singular feature.

GoddessSune

2013-05-27, 04:18 PM

Tempted to say that he might as well just leave if he isn't having fun.

Say it. :smallbiggrin:

Really if someone wants to come to your game and not have fun, why even have them come?

Worse, if they want to come and ruin the fun for everyone.....

Vellus

2013-05-27, 05:39 PM

Terrain differences, noted. I had the party in a coliseum arena. There were four pillars which had two bridges attached. I was hoping to get players to jump up on there - was also planning on having the wasp riders fly up on them and throw their alchemical fire at the party but the whole encounter seemed to be tough for the party so I knocked that and had them fly low instead. That "3 encounters" trick seemed fairly intuitive to me. I appreciate all the tips.

For the homebrew thing I was figuring I would do some research on homebrew stuff and consult the homebrew forum on ironing out the specifics. Thanks for all the help and advice offered. I'll look at this thread again to refresh it in my head as I finish planning this week's adventure. Let's just hope the PCs don't get themselves killed by pissing off a bunch of high level npcs.

Edit: I will probably be back after Friday night for more advice. Here's hoping things don't get bad when I talk to that problem player.

ArcturusV

2013-05-27, 05:59 PM

Arena fights are... tricky. I mean we're trained by stuff we see in movies, etc, to basically turn them into big bland open flat expanses so that we can see the people fighting more than the people dealing with adverse terrain.

But it makes for something that should be a classical, interesting confrontation into the most boring of encounters as it often comes down to "I full attack" "I full attack" "I full attack", back to back to back. Or "I withdraw, then take a ranged attack/spell".

So Arenas need to be chock full of even more various terrain to break up the fights into something interesting. Particularly if you have mutable and destructible terrain. Having NPCs actually use the terrain can help kick start players into thinking "... oooooooh... I could have fliped that table on it's side and used it as cover..." and similar lines.

Last time I designed an arena for an encounter, it ended up being in a Ring of Fire, taking place on top of precarious elevated platforms with chains hung between them, cargo netting, and the audience putting a "timer" on the fight if it got boring by setting the platforms on fire one by one.

Vellus

2013-05-27, 06:09 PM

Normally I wouldn't have gone for am arena. However, the party specifically asked if there was one and I was like "well... if they want an arena, then okay! Arena it is." They seemed to enjoy it.

ddude987

2013-05-28, 03:10 PM

Vellus and I have decided that vell will tlk to him and see why he is angry and what not. We have also decided to give him the decision to remake into the home brew fighter I made, see my sig , but not tell him it is my home brew. That fighter fix seems to be what he wanted, a weapons master And a leader.
Sorry for poor typing, I'm on my tabletand I don't know how to type

buttcyst

2013-05-28, 09:06 PM

I was going to post on this last night, it seems you have come up with a possible solution for your player. I hope tsat works out for the best and the problem is minimized. If he is still refusing to participate and just wants to spend his time "working" in town, you could make his new job location the center of the information flow and and have that place be where the quests are coming from. if that still doesn't work, create a higher level rogue and rob the store while he is "on duty". That could lead to him being blamed or framed and now he has to ask for the help of the rest of the group to clear his name so he can continue not having fun. If he still refuses to participate, well, his good hardworking name is now tainted and it will be impossible to find honest work in that town and possibly any that are near enough by to be considered close (and further out depending on the trade routes of your world).

Just a thought, I know it makes the game all about him in a way, but, it would force him into the position of needing the rest of the group in order to accomplish his "side goal".

Vellus

2013-05-28, 10:22 PM

That's just the thing - he doesn't want to just work. He wants to spend a week scoping a place to break in and steal from it. I don't really understand the why of any part of it, either. Not to mention that I don't think his character - by his own character sheet (he's taken nymphs kiss as a feat) - is even allowed to take that action. So. Argh. Just going to have to talk to him I guess.

Tried contacting him today and he never responded. I want to know everything o can now, before we meet. Here's hoping he answers tomorrow.

buttcyst

2013-05-28, 10:51 PM

*** THIS IS A DIRECT COPY/PASTE FROM THE BOOK OF EXAULTED DEEDS ***

This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only
intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral
standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful
agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures.
These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being
extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).
A character must have the DM’s permission to take an
exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often
this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for
example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who
willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits
from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she
atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).

*** THAT WAS A DIRECT COPY/PASTE FROM THE BOOK OF EXAULTED DEEDS ***

As a DM, you need to make him aware of the consequences of his actions. On a personal level is whether you let him know before or after he makes the action. As for spending days on end in town to rob it, that can be condensed to a roll of the D20 for a gather info check, a few BS rolls of the percentile for good showmanship and then let him rob the store, instead of him spending all game doing nothing, that whole bit is condensed into 10 minutes. If you want it to stop after that, either have him captured, traumatized severely, or killed/executed. maybe the town has a zero tolerance for crime. I as a DM made a dry town once to deal with the always at the inn drinking guy, he tried to bluff the town guard into drinking with him and was immediately escorted out of the city walls.

ArcturusV

2013-05-29, 01:03 AM

I dunno, the "Why" matters with theft more than the act of theft itself. Otherwise Rogues would almost entirely be excluded from being "exalted" and that isn't the case. So if he was actually doing a Robin Hood schtick (Or thought he was), then he'd be good to go for stealing from a place and perfectly fine maintaining his Exalted status.

But yeah. No telling what his deal actually is. Might have just looked at the feat and taken it because hey... it's a pretty solid feat. Over the course of 12 levels you're talking 12 additional skill points (As far as I could tell, it doesn't actually get the x4 if you take it at first level. Nothing I've seen states it would, so it's just +1 even at first level), +2 to a whole bunch of skills, and saving throw bonuses.

But since he has that feat? It's an easy handle to grab on and make the character realize his own behavior, since he needs to maintain a good relation with a Nymph (or similar Fae) for it. Having a "boss" in effect, who can force him to do stuff unless he wants to give up his bonuses he burned a feat for, can be a way to hammer through ICily that people are having issues with his behavior.

ddude987

2013-05-31, 11:45 PM

Well as of the meeting today the problem player did a lot better. He still talks a lot on other peoples turn about what they should do but I think he is just trying to promote teamwork.

buttcyst

2013-06-01, 10:19 AM

it may be a little annoying to him, but if he is trying to talk over other players, you can subtly remind him of the turn rotation by letting him know that his turn is coming up and he can then give other players all the input for ideas he want because it will be his character talking to theirs from char point of view. If the other players are ok and/or wanting his help and suggestions for what to do next, have them ask in character. and if his character isn't in the area as the others, well, he wont have much input. Be wary of him talking to much out of turn and of him pushing toward action because it will create an environment where as soon as he is not a factor in the game room, they might not know what to do on their own and you end up with a party at a stand still. It happened to my group after I removed our problem player, the next couple of sessions, none of the other players were used to having any option as to what they did next because until then, it was always a mad dash everywhere to keep up with the "problem". They ended up spending almost 2 whole game sessions getting close to nothing accomplished toward the quests at hand and were a little confused as to the entirety of what was going on. They are now knees deep in a dungeon that they have almost no information about and they aren't even sure if it's the right place. They are slowly coming back into fully developed characters with personalities, I didn't realize before his removal how much he was impacting the rest of the group.

In short, characters helping characters = good times, players helping players = good times, players helping others' characters = annoying for most

Miranius

2013-06-02, 10:20 AM

i`m glad he ha wisened up somewhat :) Let us know how the talk with him went and what was said if you have the chance.

Vellus

2013-06-02, 09:49 PM

I spoke with him a few days before the meet and informed him that his atrtitude was interfering with others' enjoyment of the game. I also hinted I would be forced by my duty to expunge him from the group if he refuses to participate. He assured me it wouldn't be a problem. He had a bit of an attitude at certain points - though mostly when others in the group would poke at him.

All in all it seemed a more positive experience. I made a point to wrap up his character's 'stay a week here doing this thing' - the party got a quest from someone to kill the lord he was working for, which they succeeded in. My main problem seems to be making challenging encounters when the party damage is flying out. It's hard to make a boss encounter which is both beatable and not 'two shot' - although I am still just getting the hang of the more mechanical aspects of combat.

One of my players(the experienced one) reminded me that I could have had the boss prepare ready actions each round to have him attack then five foot step away. Not only would this have saved him from the party's warblade's huge damage, but it would have gotten him out of the caster's line of effect. Would have made the encounter far more interesting.

Ah well, they didn't burn the body, they only took the sword. Cleric can revive him later for a rematch if I want to, but I probably won't unless the party goes back there.

Party wants to do a dungeon so I'm trying to plan it. I've read dungeonscape but I'm still not wholly confident in it, I know what I -want- to do, but not exactly how to go about it. Any recommendations for templates to apply to common animals, preferably bears and boars and other forest or cave animals and vermin, such as large spiders? I'm crawling through the source content but I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of good templates or anything.

buttcyst

2013-06-04, 10:39 AM

it's good that he listened to you, as far a gearing encounter to make up for losing a party member periodically, don't, but you could incorporate more role play into the encounters themselves, most things in the monster manuals speak, and sometimes, they capture.

as far as dungeon ideas, I have doctored from the book of challenges plenty, and grabbing some paper and drawing a map is always a good start. For encounter ideas, don't laugh, get you notebook and sit with your best DM brain and watch a couple episodes of dora, she is always solving problems along her adventures

Miranius

2013-06-04, 01:23 PM

Good to hear that:)

About the dungeon-encounter.... i think in savage species, there`s an insectile-like template (arachnid??), plus i know there are some that deal with mutation through magic or faerzness (underdark-radiation). There`s mineral-warrior as well as the elemental bloodline templates, if you want to go that route. There`s "feral" if you want to go the "forgotten tribe/civilisation"-route or just maybe put them into close symbiosis with some underground creatures and refluff prestige-classes to fit. (there`s ooze-rider already for drow, but i think the ashworm-dragoon from sandstorm would lend itself to the task as well)
What do you want to field as encounters / opponents?

My own group will not meet this week most likely, so if you want some more direct help/input, just post it or pm me.

Vellus

2013-06-05, 12:43 PM

Wizard tower, plane shifting for dungeoning, templates applied to animals.

Ways to keep combat interesting when we have an uber charger?

ArcturusV

2013-06-05, 12:54 PM

Well, depends on what you mean by "interesting". Do you mean that it makes the Charger effective, but more difficult to use, or it shuts the guy down pretty solidly?

I mean, as silly as it sounds, unless you got someone doing some hard magical battlefield lockdown (Unlikely since the Charger is the one you're worried about), a simple, basic tactic like a Shield Wall with some Pikers lined up behind them will really ruin his day. Or even just a pike hedge, or the presence of piker enemies.

They see this huge hurking guy looking to charge them. They set their weapon against the charge. Get an AoO and stop him cold.

So, if you run something like a squad of Hobgoblins. Shield wall in front. Pikers behind them with a reach polearm, the pikers ready an action, set against a charge. The front guys lock tower shields. The charger comes in, at the very least he's gonna get hit with 2 enemies inflicting double damage on him with the polearms. Which can put a damper in his day pretty fast. And even after taking the damage, the tower shields give full cover, so he's not all that likely to hit the guy he charged due to Miss Chance.

Such a tactic doesn't shut a charger down cold. But it does mean it's less cruise control to victory as they will take some serious damage in doing so.

In a lot of the more "No, I said No" category is the usual things that irk players. Flying enemies. Difficult terrain, Point Blank Battles, etc, which just says "No, you cannot charge".

Captnq

2013-06-05, 01:00 PM

A wide-eyed child about 9 years old wearing clothes that are obviously hand-me-downs comes up to the party and asks, "Are you adventurers?"

Adventurers always wear mismatched equipment, because they care more about magical bonuses then how they look.

When they say, "Yes." the child offers to hire them for 3 copper pieces (everything she owns) because her kitten has:

a) Wandered into a forgotten gate and wound up in a dungeon.
b) Taken by monsters who live in the sewer and are eating cats for food.
c) Wandered into the warehouse of the local thieves guild.
d) Entered a haunted house that is haunted by a "ghost", but it turns out to be smugglers, but then you find all the smugglers murdered. Then the Schooby-Du gang attacks them. The Schooby-Du gang was turned into undead years ago and now they haunt the land killing con-artists.
e) fallen in a well. Turns out there's a wizard's secret back-up lair down there.
f) stuck in a tower run by an evil wizard.
g) just lost, but the locals think they're perverts trying to hire a 9-year old prostitute and the whole block tries to beat the crap out of them.

buttcyst

2013-06-05, 01:00 PM

everything gets fun when the bad guy takes to the air and turns invisible

ddude987

2013-06-05, 02:40 PM

Good suggestions ArcturusV. That'll work well. However those enemies will still eat my glitterdust or grease. I think Vell is worried about the ubercharger more than myself as he seems to be taking all of the luster of the party. It doesn't seem people are upset by it but he does outshine most of the party.

Also the problem player has been booted and replaced by a player the rest of the party wanted to join and voted in.

Vellus

2013-06-07, 11:07 PM

Aye, as Di mentioned, the issue comes from when the uber-charger... well, uber-charges and takes out half the enemy's health in a single 5d6 swing (Admittedly, partially my fault for letting him nab a corrosive greatsword...) and then the rest of the party is either... knocking enemies prone (cc wizard) or... Trying to match him for damage and falling short and feeling kind of gimped. And then they take damage and find his higher health total keeps him up longer as well.

Although, now someone decided to have his original character dieand get replaced with a venerable dragonwrought kobold.

Yay. Cheese. I'm kind of determined to make him hate his life, because I get the feeling he's doing it solely to outshine the rest of the party. That ain't cool nor will it sit well with me. Like I'm looking for ways to make uber-charger guy not steal every battle spotlight, but, you know, he's just playing his character. He's doing it 'cause that's his character. He roleplays a goliath hellbent on being strong enough to make his own clan.

So.

Thoughts for dealing with cheese drood?

ArcturusV

2013-06-07, 11:13 PM

Never had to deal with Dragonwrought Kobolds. Though typically when someone tries to break out the hard cheese and dominate the game, I remind them by example of two basic rules of DnD.

1) Offense trumps defense. Basically no matter how powerful your defenses are, there is going to be a way to defeat someone. You can't stop everything, and in high power games, it's whoever hits first and hits hardest wins.

2) Players are, typically by definition, Protagonists (Even the evil ones). The DM plays the Antagonists. Antagonists, by definition, are going to hit players before players are really aware there are even Antagonists out and about.

This usually combines to ruining the day of the hardball player. I usually give them a civil warning outside the game about these facts of life before they commit to trying to play One Up on everyone. If you remind your cheesy player about these facts of life, he might reconsider.

Miranius

2013-06-08, 07:15 AM

Well you have fluff right in his character profile i think that you can use...

venerable dragonwrought means old, really really really old... imagine all the grudges, hatreds and feuds can accumulate over such a life.
How many clans or families of dwarves, goblins or whatnot are out there swearing vengeance for the death of their great-great-great whatever... ?
How much Information has he accumulated that is out of date or tinted with hundreds of years of kobold-only viewpoints?

what class will he combine with the kobold? sorcerer? it`s not hard to justify npc`s that are proficient in anti-mage tactics (magekiller-feat group, potions of invisibility, tanglefoot bags, nets, ways to engage AMF`s....)

As a DM, don`t just make his life miserable. make the encounters so that everyone has the same chances/moments to shine. If you have to tweak them to be a little more anti-caster, so be it.

Tuki Tuki

2013-06-08, 01:58 PM

Rule #1 of dming: Don't railroad. This means don't force your party to do stuff they don't want to do, try to find alternative ways to make them do what you set up
Rule #2: Don't kill off players. Don't set things extremely difficult so that players die easily especially at low levels, and don't make a character dying part of the quest. If you need someone to die make an npc that is there just to die and no other reason.
Rule#3: Be fair. If someone is about to die, don't roll the die behind the dm screen and be like you died. Even if he did, you should always roll life changing rolls in front of the player to make sure that they don't hate you hate them or their character and so they don't make douche bag character to replace the character that just died.
Rule#4: Make the party happy. If someone wants something and it wont hurt your campaign but they don't have the extra 1k, you should consider giving it to them to stop them from doing stupid things because they didn't get what they want and because happy parties mean happy sessions.

JusticeZero

2013-06-08, 02:14 PM

If people feel jealous because they can't match some specialized optimized tactic, the trick is never ever to try to match that trick. The key is to get the min-max artist to help them optimize for a completely different but also awesome ability.

Xervous

2013-06-08, 02:25 PM

Just saying dragonwrought kobold gives us very little information. What rulings have you put forth on DWKs? And what build is the player pursuing? Dragonwrought kobolds can be very tame if not built towards certain class-types: namely sorcerer and wizard.

Questions on your rulings, do not start the inevitable flame fest.
-Are dragonwrought kobolds true dragons?
-Does the line in Races of the Dragon that says Dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood subtype make them auto qualify? (RAW it does IIRC)
-If he is a true dragon, does he have access to Sovereign Archetypes?

Also, charging monstrosities can be dealt with easily. Enemies with reach and properly tuned numbers can cause him trouble, good use of terrain can reduce how many times he can charge, the elusive target feat is nice once in a while to make power attackers less happy. A tripping master should be enough of a nuisance to him, as will proper enemy tactics. Spacing your monsters so that he can't charge from one to another will reduce his impact on encounters or will force him to eat attacks of opportunity. Military groups are perfect for using more advanced tactics, like screening the artillery (archers) behind a phalanx. He should think twice before charging a line of spears, or he will learn from his mistake very quickly.

ddude987

2013-06-08, 05:29 PM

I am inviting the flame fest

-Are dragonwrought kobolds true dragons?

Obviously

-Does the line in Races of the Dragon that says Dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood subtype make them auto qualify? (RAW it does IIRC)
It says it pretty clearly, yeah

-If he is a true dragon, does he have access to Sovereign Archetypes?

No, we are limiting cs stuff.

Also he is doing Druid for the sole purpose of outshining the melee at damage and everyone else at utility (except me, the god wizard). Also because he thought his rogue to situational for combat, and I may have let slip dwk is cheesy :smallredface:

edit: Do not debate dwk in this thread. That is the ruling of the game rules lawyer and by extension the dm. That say is final. The dwk debate can take place in another thread if you must but please not this one.

Xervous

2013-06-08, 06:03 PM

DWK is only mildly cheesier than strongheart halfling

DWK + true dragon + qualifies for dragonblood = not a problem

DWK + sorcerer boost = not a problem

its only the things that it grants him access to that are problematic. Playing a druid, its not like its getting him much at all beyond +3 wis.

JusticeZero

2013-06-08, 06:47 PM

..the ubercharger ..seems to be taking all of the luster of the party. It doesn't seem people are upset by it but he does outshine most of the party.
Toss out what the party is and maybe some minmaxers can come up with some similarly awesome tricks that they can work toward. The ubercharger can dish out a lot of damage, but if someone is accidentally a level away from being a combat patrol AoO monstrosity that can pin down the whole fight, or some equally awesome trick that is completely different, they can slice out a slice of awesome of their very own.

ddude987

2013-06-08, 08:43 PM

buttcyst

2013-06-15, 06:50 PM

well, if he is trying to outshine the group in melee as a druid, he'd be selfish not to cast any mass versions of buffers he has, the spell compendium has plenty that are lower level. but anybody else in the party with any melee prowess to their character will be just as affective as a buffed out druid wild shaped in combat. he'll have mediocre AC and attack bonus, might go up a little with strength buff and WS. Most druid combat spells are either combat control, terrain control, weather control, and a few yucky ranged attacks, but as far as melee, meh at best. And with the lower hit points he'll be losing them just as quickly as the rest of the party. Granted druids are powerful enough to literally change your entire map if given enough time, in melee, they are slightly more advantaged than a rogue.

strength in numbers is the bane of melee, casters can take out many at once, the most a melee will take out is 2 or 3 with the appropriate feats. surround him, have him charged, set spears on him, entangle him (druid spells like spike stones), make the ground icy, or slippery or unstable. all these things will hinder the party as well, but if everybody has to make a check every 10 feet or fall to the ground, it get silly and inventive.