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Ozfer
2013-05-21, 08:30 PM
I am trying to figure out the ranges for a system I'm working on, and wikipedia says that longbows have a whopping effective range of 600 feet! Now while the bows might be effective at 600 feet, does anyone know what the effective range is for aiming at a target? I assume that the 600 feet thing is without aiming, as in volley fire.

LeoLionxxx
2013-05-21, 10:13 PM
Went to check rules for D&D and it agrees with the 600 ft. range. However that was the absolute limit on the range. It sais ordinary range is 150, while 150-600 you have disadvantage.

You might try a mechanic like that for yours, since 600 ft. seems a little overpowered for your players to be sniping everything so easily (and 30 squares is much easier to map than 120, especially if your using tiles or the like.)

TuggyNE
2013-05-21, 10:33 PM
Went to check rules for D&D and it agrees with the 600 ft. range. However that was the absolute limit on the range. It sais ordinary range is 150, while 150-600 you have disadvantage.

D&D is not even vaguely an authority on this sort of thing, especially since different editions disagree stridently; 3.x, for example, lets a composite longbow fire all the way out to 1100', albeit at a hefty penalty. And that's before stuff like Far Shot, flight arrows, and so on and so forth.

However, stuff like clout archery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clout_archery) can give you a decent idea of the accuracy modern amateurs can manage at something approaching those ranges. At 200 yards, using a warbow to ensure adequate flight, getting most arrows within a few feet of the target (i.e., enough to wound, hit a mount, or similar) seems not improbable, and a really skilled archer might do better than that.

Hylas
2013-05-21, 10:38 PM
Using a bow is actually two-fold. The effective range of the bow depends on the strength of the user and the draw weight of the bow. A bow that is harder to pull back will have a longer range.

Accuracy is based on the skill of the user and the design of the bow. Assuming bows of equal quality, an archer can use different bows with the same accuracy at the same distance. Distance is more of an issue than the model of the bow (this isn't necessarily true, but for an RPG system you'll want to simplify your models for ease of use, and this is a good place to cut a corner).

If you're looking for a semi-complicated way to figure out range. I would do something like:
Max range = Str*30ft
Accuracy = Dex+Skill-Distance

-Str is determined at the time of making the bow. If the bow is made for a higher strength than the current user then they get a penalty based on the difference as they can't fully draw the bow for proper aiming.

-Distance adds penalties at a fixed rate regardless of weapon. Such as -1 per 20 feet.

Various models of bows, or modern materials, may increase the effective max range to something like Str*40. Aiming will still be just as difficult in any case, but optics can negate penalties/give bonuses.

Please note the numbers were picked arbitrarily for example purposes only. :smallsmile:

Jay R
2013-05-21, 10:52 PM
I am trying to figure out the ranges for a system I'm working on, and wikipedia says that longbows have a whopping effective range of 600 feet! Now while the bows might be effective at 600 feet, does anyone know what the effective range is for aiming at a target? I assume that the 600 feet thing is without aiming, as in volley fire.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAHsAiATnak)is a shot made at 135 yards.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Beu0stHGeI) one at 150 yards.

And I assume that people who shot all day every day could do better.

Edge of Dreams
2013-05-22, 12:24 AM
Remember that maximum effective range is the furthest distance you can expect to do significant damage to a struck target under optimal conditions. That means no wind against you, no trees in the way, and certainly no ceiling or covering like you'd have to deal with in a dungeon or cave. Plus, notice in those videos how large of a target that archer uses.

Very few games/GMs bother to reduce bow ranges to account for weather and the fact that you can't do a high arcing shot properly under a 10 foot ceiling.

The practical solutions to this I've seen always involve range increments - you *can* hit things at max range, but either your accuracy or your damage output or both should be reduced relative to the distance. Runequest 6th Edition even takes into account the size of your foe - larger enemies are easier to hit at a distance than small animals.

Jay R
2013-05-22, 09:33 AM
Very few games/GMs bother to reduce bow ranges to account for weather and the fact that you can't do a high arcing shot properly under a 10 foot ceiling.

True, but the fact that you can usually only see 60 feet in those conditions will make up for that - plus the fact that few corridors are 600 feet long.

GnomeFighter
2013-05-22, 10:43 AM
600 feet would not be unreasonable for hitting a human sized target at a reasonable range.

In the time of Richard III an archer using a war bow could be expected to have a range of up to 1200 feet. The modern recurved flight record is around 1500 feet. Thats without getting in to silly specialist equipment of open flight (they can go over 4000 feet).


Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAHsAiATnak)is a shot made at 135 yards.

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Beu0stHGeI) one at 150 yards.

And I assume that people who shot all day every day could do better.

They would be able to use a heavier bow, certainly.

Joe the Rat
2013-05-22, 10:57 AM
Remember that maximum effective range is the furthest distance you can expect to do significant damage to a struck target under optimal conditions. That means no wind against you, no trees in the way, and certainly no ceiling or covering like you'd have to deal with in a dungeon or cave. Plus, notice in those videos how large of a target that archer uses.

Very few games/GMs bother to reduce bow ranges to account for weather and the fact that you can't do a high arcing shot properly under a 10 foot ceiling.
Once upon a time, D&D used inch measures as feet indoors / yards outdoors for distances - the inability to properly arch your archery in tunnels being a cited factor. I'm trying to remember why you could move thrice as fast outside as well... (Spells didn't scale up, but I would be amused by the potential implication of wizards casting "smaller" fireballs underground as an uncharacteristic show of restraint. )

If you don't want to scale shift, limit indoor range to something medium-ish - the longest range at-penalty shots are only possible arcing your shots. if you want a realistic limit, you could get some numbers on release speed and average flight speed of an arrow and calculate how far it could go with a modest parabolic flight fired at 5' elevation, peaking at 10', and once it drops to 3' you are at the limit of effective indoor range (and that 10' ceiling is being generous).

Ozfer
2013-05-22, 11:16 AM
Wow, thanks for all the sources :). I'll definitely take all of this into account.

Mike_G
2013-05-22, 12:14 PM
Once upon a time, D&D used inch measures as feet indoors / yards outdoors for distances - the inability to properly arch your archery in tunnels being a cited factor. I'm trying to remember why you could move thrice as fast outside as well... (Spells didn't scale up, but I would be amused by the potential implication of wizards casting "smaller" fireballs underground as an uncharacteristic show of restraint. )

If you don't want to scale shift, limit indoor range to something medium-ish - the longest range at-penalty shots are only possible arcing your shots. if you want a realistic limit, you could get some numbers on release speed and average flight speed of an arrow and calculate how far it could go with a modest parabolic flight fired at 5' elevation, peaking at 10', and once it drops to 3' you are at the limit of effective indoor range (and that 10' ceiling is being generous).


The "inches" scale for range and movement was a holdover from miniature wargames. I'm sure the battlefield games had an inch = 10 yards so you can shoot at a guy 100 yards away and play on a small table. But having a small 1inch room in a dungeon represent a 30' x 30' room is insane, so they made 1 inch = 10 feet indoors.

It's all for convenience of tabletop gaming. The "Bows shoot a third the distance inside because of low ceilings" was just a BS justification. Because they never explained how Magic Missiles fly three times as far, and Fireballs explode three times as big, and people run three times as fast outside.

From 3rd edition on, they dropped the "inches" scale and just went with 5 foot increments.

Jay R
2013-05-22, 01:25 PM
Once upon a time, D&D used inch measures as feet indoors / yards outdoors for distances - the inability to properly arch your archery in tunnels being a cited factor. I'm trying to remember why you could move thrice as fast outside as well...

That never made sense to me either ... until I did some melee fighting in cramped quarters in the SCA. Yes, you move more slowly.

TuggyNE
2013-05-22, 03:57 PM
That never made sense to me either ... until I did some melee fighting in cramped quarters in the SCA. Yes, you move more slowly.

But 1/3 the speed? And even in underground/indoor areas that are not cramped, such as vaults or chambers?

neonchameleon
2013-05-22, 04:34 PM
Bow range for what? Because combat archery at long range is going to be a challenge against single targets. Nothing about the accuracy of the archer; arrows have a flight time and that allows a half decent swordsman to move, block, or parry. If, on the other hand, you are shooting at a target that's going to be in exactly the same place in three seconds (whether from ambush, because it's a big target like an army, or it's just stationary, your effective range is massively increased.

Ozfer
2013-05-22, 05:03 PM
neonchameleon, you just summarized the mechanics for my system :smalltongue:. Except for the part with stationary targets. Maybe that will be a new rule. Thanks :).

Jay R
2013-05-22, 08:01 PM
But 1/3 the speed?

In semi-darkness on uneven terrain that I cannot see well, when jostled by my mates, 1/3 outdoor speed seems kind of fast to me, too. But short of having a hundred different factors applied, it seems reasonable.


And even in underground/indoor areas that are not cramped, such as vaults or chambers?

Again, it's a simplistic rule. But unless you already know there are no fissures in the shadows, yeah, you'd slow down - a lot. (Of course, on uneven terrain outdoors in the dark, you would slow down almost as much.)

Doug Lampert
2013-05-22, 08:32 PM
Bow range for what? Because combat archery at long range is going to be a challenge against single targets. Nothing about the accuracy of the archer; arrows have a flight time and that allows a half decent swordsman to move, block, or parry. If, on the other hand, you are shooting at a target that's going to be in exactly the same place in three seconds (whether from ambush, because it's a big target like an army, or it's just stationary, your effective range is massively increased.

Bingo. Arrows can be seen coming, even if they can't, at maximum range the arrow arrives long enough after you shoot it that the target is likely to have moved many feet while the arrow is in flight. The theoretical maximum range is totally irrelevant to a D&D type skirmishing situation where 10 guys is a big force and 20 is getting unmanageably large.

One of the main reasons for shooting in volleys was that people could block or dodge individual weapons at non-trivial range. Especially people with shields could block an incoming arrow they see coming.

IIRC the Mythbusters episode where they had someone CATCHING relatively fast moving arrows from modern bows they were firing at something like 15' range (they were indoors and in a not all that large area), most characters won't be that good at dodging or blocking, but some may be. I've read at least one Norse Sage (usually brutally realistic) in which one guy in a ship's castle was shot at by an army after his ship has been captured and boarded and everyone else killed. And he dodged the incoming arrows, javelins, and other weapons so consistently that they eventually negotiated with him (and then they killed the guy with an axe to the head during the negotiations, hey those guys weren't nice).

And even against a massed target (and maybe especially for a massed target with shields), the arrows can be dealt with unless they are also being fired in mass volleys. PCs don't fire massed volleys, just say "no" to letting them hit anyone at more than 50 yards or so if the target is aware of them prior to the shot.

Gavinfoxx
2013-05-23, 01:58 AM
Read the latest version of the armor and ranged weaponry book of codex martialis. It is FANTASTIC about the different types of ranges in different weapons.

Ashtagon
2013-05-23, 02:10 AM
Very few games/GMs bother to reduce bow ranges to account for weather and the fact that you can't do a high arcing shot properly under a 10 foot ceiling.

I did the maths once, and it is actually possible to hit a chest-high target about three range increments away using a bow and with a 10-foot ceiling. That's farther that you are likely to need for areas that actually have 10-foot high ceilings.

GnomeFighter
2013-05-23, 04:36 AM
One of the main reasons for shooting in volleys was that people could block or dodge individual weapons at non-trivial range. Especially people with shields could block an incoming arrow they see coming.

No, the reason for firing volleys is the same reason black powder era infantry fired volleys. You don't need to spend time aiming to hit an individual in a large group. You fire without aiming and you will hit something. You get another shot off faster. It also has a psychological effect. Dropping rows of men and running into a hail of death is much worse than single men dropping.



IIRC the Mythbusters episode where they had someone CATCHING relatively fast moving arrows from modern bows they were firing at something like 15' range (they were indoors and in a not all that large area), most characters won't be that good at dodging or blocking, but some may be.

http://mythbustersresults.com/return-of-the-ninja
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjURNYXoNdM
This was someone who's whole "trick" was to catch arrows yet he couldn't manage it in anything but perfect conditions. Yes, in D&D we have "hero" characters who can do super human things. That is why the "catch arrow" feat exists. Also, I would hardly call it a modern bow. That is a basic wooden riser with GF limbs using cheap wooden arrows. A Yew self warbow with cloth yard bodkins in the hands of a trained archer will be far more effective than that.



And even against a massed target (and maybe especially for a massed target with shields), the arrows can be dealt with unless they are also being fired in mass volleys. PCs don't fire massed volleys, just say "no" to letting them hit anyone at more than 50 yards or so if the target is aware of them prior to the shot.
An arrow will cover 50 yards in about .5 seconds. Human reaction time is about .2 seconds under good conditions. For driving it is a minimum of .5 seconds, a situation much more analogues to this situation. That is just for the time for I don't see why you would ban people from being effective over 50 yards.

TuggyNE
2013-05-23, 05:14 AM
This was someone who's whole "trick" was to catch arrows yet he couldn't manage it in anything but perfect conditions. Yes, in D&D we have "hero" characters who can do super human things. That is why the "catch arrow" feat exists. Also, I would hardly call it a modern bow. That is a basic wooden riser with GF limbs using cheap wooden arrows. A Yew self warbow with cloth yard bodkins in the hands of a trained archer will be far more effective than that.

For what it's worth, actually catching arrows is not what you need in combat; you just need to use a weapon or shield to deflect them, which is I believe substantially easier. Also, documented historically.


An arrow will cover 50 yards in about .5 seconds. Human reaction time is about .2 seconds under good conditions. For driving it is a minimum of .5 seconds, a situation much more analogues to this situation. That is just for the time for I don't see why you would ban people from being effective over 50 yards.

Yeah, saying "no, you can't hit that guy 50 yards away at all, ever, no matter what" is too much; just impose increasing penalties, and if you want to, give combatants the chance to parry arrows/bolts, with a penalty at closer ranges or for successive parries or something.

GnomeFighter
2013-05-23, 06:54 AM
For what it's worth, actually catching arrows is not what you need in combat; you just need to use a weapon or shield to deflect them, which is I believe substantially easier. Also, documented historically.

Yes, but thats all part of your AC. Doing it with a weapon is not much different to doing it with your hand. Doing it with your shield is the function of a shield.

John Campbell
2013-05-23, 04:49 PM
That never made sense to me either ... until I did some melee fighting in cramped quarters in the SCA. Yes, you move more slowly.

Woods - or, really, any outdoor terrain other than a smooth, open field - will slow you down a lot more than even small rooms with worked floors. Can't count the number of times I've ended up faceplanting because I tried to move across the forest floor like it was the gym at fighter practice. It's the footing and the density of obstacles (including other people, ally or enemy) around, not whether there's a ceiling over you.

Scow2
2013-05-24, 10:50 AM
No, the reason for firing volleys is the same reason black powder era infantry fired volleys. You don't need to spend time aiming to hit an individual in a large group. You fire without aiming and you will hit something. You get another shot off faster. It also has a psychological effect. Dropping rows of men and running into a hail of death is much worse than single men dropping.
It has a psychological effect on both sides, since humans (not so surprisingly) have an aversion to killing each other if they can help it. To those charging into a volley of arrows, it demoralizes the chargers because of the hail of certain death. For the archers, there's the peace of mind from not necessarily knowing which arrow's theirs - "I'm just sending sticks of pointy wood toward that direction. I'm not horrifically maiming and murdering my fellow man" or "That might have been my arrow that saves my ally's life."