New to Epic - help with Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso character

[DreamQuestin]

Greetings and good morrow folks!

I have played D&D forever, but this is my first epic campaign and I am finding it a bit daunting here are my guidelines:

We are at level 25
54 point buy
2,100,000 GP
Up to Three Flaws
Bonus Feats at 7th and 14th

From reading the forums here I thought to try a bard 10/sublime chord 10/virtuoso 5 as a starting point (flexible there)

My goal is NOT to be the biggest/baddest/most powerful bard on the block but on the flip side I don't want to be the 99 pound weakling either. I want a character that is good but not a God, that I can write a tale around and ROLE play. Hope that isn't too strange a request :)

I am grateful for any assistance - I kind of feel at this point I know Jack as I haven't played a character higher than 12 ever! So it's ok to treat me like a newb :)

With a smile,
DreamQuestin

[Waker]

Epic hmm? Been quite a while since I worked on anything epic.

Well, first off you definitely should grab the feat Melodic Casting from Complete Mage. This will let you use Perform in place of Concentration for things like casting defensively. It will also let you use your magic during a bardic performance.
Subsonics from Complete Adventurer lets you use Bardic Music without actually making any noise, which is quite handy when you are trying to disguise your presence.
Lingering Song greatly increases the duration of your music effects.
Lyric Spell can let you sacrifice bardic performances in order to cast a spell. Can be handy if you are running low on spells. Bear in mind you would have 20 uses of Bardic Music (Bard 10+ Virtuoso 5+Sublime Chord (10/2). May still want to consider getting Extra Music.
Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign Setting can help pump up the effects of your songs a bit.

Since you have access to Epic Feats, you can take Epic Spellcasting because of Sublime Chord.
Lasting Inspiration is funny, since combined with Lingering Song would mean that your music lasts for 10 minutes after you stop.
Music of the Gods might be useful to get around immune enemies.

[DreamQuestin]

Thank you very kindly for the quick reply! You have given me a starting point to be sure.

I always thought it would be easier to build an epic character. Now I find the choices... difficult :)

Thanks again!

With a smile,
Deb

[prufock]

In my opinion, an epic campaign is the perfect excuse for Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization) shenanigans. I'm hesitant to use stuff like Words of Creation in most games, but epic? Yeah, go to town. And you'll probably want Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting), since you're a full 9th-level caster, as well as Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity).

Any way to work in 3 levels of Marshal (losing levels of SC or Virtuoso)? Maybe not ideal because you lose out on spellcasting, but double charisma bonus to charisma based checks (Motivate Charisma) for diplomacy and getting your charisma bonus to intelligence based checks (Motivate Intelligence) paired with Epic Spellcasting could be nice.

[Carth]

As a strictly novelty suggestion, consider taking 1 level of mindbender for telepathy, which would be your exclusive means of commuunication, and play as an utterly inscrutable mute master of subtlety.

[Phelix-Mu]

In my opinion, an epic campaign is the perfect excuse for Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization) shenanigans. I'm hesitant to use stuff like Words of Creation in most games, but epic? Yeah, go to town. And you'll probably want Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting), since you're a full 9th-level caster, as well as Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity).

Any way to work in 3 levels of Marshal (losing levels of SC or Virtuoso)? Maybe not ideal because you lose out on spellcasting, but double charisma bonus to charisma based checks (Motivate Charisma) for diplomacy and getting your charisma bonus to intelligence based checks (Motivate Intelligence) paired with Epic Spellcasting could be nice.

You need to nail down whether the DM is allowing Epic Spellcasting. It stands to be a sensible investment of resources if the DM does. But if it's not allowed, don't bother. A fair number of DMs don't allow it, because it single-handedly hands the keys to the kingdom to the character that has it.

But some DMs are up for it. Definitely use any tools the DM is good enough to hand to you, and Epic Spellcasting is pretty much the "yeah, today I want to make a Star Destroyer" of all tools. As a full caster, breaking the game is pretty much your role in the party, and as bard, every other member of the party is going to love your character anyway (since Inspire Courage optimization is fierce indeed, and fun for everyone that isn't sitting behind the DM screen).

Also, a lot of the early epic bard feats are wanting (the best ones don't crop up until 27th), so you should have a slot in there for Epic Spellcasting if it's available.

[DreamQuestin]

You need to nail down whether the DM is allowing Epic Spellcasting. It stands to be a sensible investment of resources if the DM does. But if it's not allowed, don't bother. A fair number of DMs don't allow it, because it single-handedly hands the keys to the kingdom to the character that has it.

Sadly I have just been informed no Epic Spells. :smallfrown:

Some great feedback though, thank you :smallbiggrin:

[DreamQuestin]

As a strictly novelty suggestion, consider taking 1 level of mindbender for telepathy, which would be your exclusive means of commuunication, and play as an utterly inscrutable mute master of subtlety.
Certainly an unusual choice for a bard :)! Think I will try that in some later campaign when I have had a chance to try 'normal'. Thank you for sharing though... it would be a hoot.

[DreamQuestin]

In my opinion, an epic campaign is the perfect excuse for Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization) shenanigans. I'm hesitant to use stuff like Words of Creation in most games, but epic? Yeah, go to town. And you'll probably want Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting), since you're a full 9th-level caster, as well as Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity).

Any way to work in 3 levels of Marshal (losing levels of SC or Virtuoso)? Maybe not ideal because you lose out on spellcasting, but double charisma bonus to charisma based checks (Motivate Charisma) for diplomacy and getting your charisma bonus to intelligence based checks (Motivate Intelligence) paired with Epic Spellcasting could be nice.
That Marshal option does sound tempting! I will look into it.

No epic spells, I am told, but otherwise some great fodder for me. Thank you so very much!

[Waker]

Since Epic Spellcasting is off the list, your best bet is to make your Bardic Music as silly as possible.
Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds will increase the effects of your music even further.
Grab a Vest of Legends to further pump up the volume.
Dragonfire Inspiration will add to the damage of your party a bit.

Epic feats to look at also might include
Epic Inspiration further bumping up your effects.


A bit of an off idea, but you might benefit taking a 1 or 2 level dip into Crusader or Warblade. The reason I say this is that with Song of the White Raven you can activate your Inspire Courage ability as a Swift Action, which is rather snazzy.

[Phelix-Mu]

Since Epic Spellcasting is off the list, your best bet is to make your Bardic Music as silly as possible.
Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds will increase the effects of your music even further.
Grab a Vest of Legends to further pump up the volume.
Dragonfire Inspiration will add to the damage of your party a bit.

Epic feats to look at also might include
Epic Inspiration further bumping up your effects.


A bit of an off idea, but you might benefit taking a 1 or 2 level dip into Crusader or Warblade. The reason I say this is that with Song of the White Raven you can activate your Inspire Courage ability as a Swift Action, which is rather snazzy.

And starting at 25th, you have a rather impressive IL for selecting maneuvers. Some of the White Raven stuff continues to be useful even into epic levels (depending on the melee/tank makeup of the party, ofc), and a stance is always a nice thing to have on the side. Song of the White Raven will help speed up your dispensing the bard buffs, which is important.

Personally, I'd go with crusader as the martial adept class, if only because its disciplines have some very low pre-req maneuvers.

Remember to pick up the duration increasing effects for the bardic music. This allows you to put some of them up before the encounters begin, saving you precious rounds at the start of combat for short duration buff spells.

Dragonfire Inspiration would also be best if you could key it to something besides fire. Many DMs hand out broad immunities to epic monsters like Halloween candy, and fire immunity is a common offender. Still, it will be so impressive that it will make mook cleanup a non-issue.

I'd also suggest a familiar. Favorable readings of Obtain Familiar feat may mean that the familiar gains Familiar Spell at 21st level, and combined with a runestaff of imbue familiar with spell ability, it's effectively an extra set of actions. Pick raven or Improved/Celestial Familiar (feat intensive) and then equip with wands and scrolls of emergency spells and the common buffs, and dimension door. Finally, a nice familiar can introduce some fun role play even into epic levels.

[Larkas]

Hmmmm... I second the SotWR and DFI suggestions. Another thing to do is to make Cha count for everything. Just throwing a few ideas:

- Paladin (of Freedom) 2 for Cha to saves;

- Battledance epic feat (Dragon #297) for CHA to AC, to hit and Reflex saves;

- Crusader 2 for Cha to Will saves (doesn't stack with Paladin; only go this way if you're getting Crusader for SotWR anyways);

- Battle Dancer 1 (IIRC; Dragon Compendium) for Cha to AC.

I'm sure others can come up with other stackables!

[prufock]

That Marshal option does sound tempting! I will look into it.

No epic spells, I am told, but otherwise some great fodder for me. Thank you so very much!

With no epic spells, don't bother taking more than Marshal 1. Motivate Charisma. By level 25 your charisma should be somewhere in the 30s. That's an extra +10 or more to all your social skills. Not too shabby.