Illusion Timeframe (Spoilers)

[alternaloser]

So, we've yet to see Belkar's face. It would be pretty anti-climactic, but I wonder if the illusion has lasted long enough he died of thirst, exposure, what have you due to his low constitution. Perhaps, we'll see his fantasy first and he'll be somewhat redeemed in how he fantasized his life to be? Probably totally off-base, I never seem able to predict this comic.

[veti]

Since the illusion seems to be shared, I think the popular bet is that Belkar's fantasy involves him being dead.

Personally, I interpret that as meaning he's dreaming about a cool and exciting afterlife. Plus I can't believe his death is going to be this anti-climactic, and if I'm right about that, then it follows that this isn't it.

[EmperorSarda]

Given Belkar is still standing, not likely. I think no more than maybe 20-30 minutes has passed. Well, at the very least 10 minutes because that is how long it would take to summon the demons.

[GSFB]

I am pretty sure Belkar's best days are still ahead of him.

I believe Belkar WILL die in the comic, but his death will be part of the final battle between good and evil. His death will have to mean something. He has experienced character growth and now Mr. Scruffy gives him a reason to sacrifice himself to save another. I predict Belkar's death will involve sacrificing himself to save Mr. Scruffy - and, as a consequence, the world - from Xykon or the Snarl. Anything short of that would be a major letdown, and, frankly, not good story telling. Remember, OotS is, above all else, a STORY.

[alternaloser]

I am pretty sure Belkar's best days are still ahead of him.

I believe Belkar WILL die in the comic, but his death will be part of the final battle between good and evil. His death will have to mean something. He has experienced character growth and now Mr. Scruffy gives him a reason to sacrifice himself to save another. I predict Belkar's death will involve sacrificing himself to save Mr. Scruffy - and, as a consequence, the world - from Xykon or the Snarl. Anything short of that would be a major letdown, and, frankly, not good story telling. Remember, OotS is, above all else, a STORY.
Yeah, this does have a much better ring to it. :smallbiggrin:

[pearl jam]

I am pretty sure Belkar's best days are still ahead of him.

snip
... Anything short of that would be a major letdown, and, frankly, not good story telling...

Anything encompasses a lot of different possibilities. Suggesting that all the possibilities that don't include the scenario you've envisioned or something very similar would necessarily be bad storytelling seems to be over stating the case just a bit.

To make a comparison... in the first season of Justified, Boyd undergoes a conversion experience and subsequently attempts to clean up his life. This continues until midway through the second season where he returns to his former criminal ways. During the period of his reform Raylan never believes, even for a moment, that Boyd has truly changed, although the viewer is given every reason to believe the change is sincere. Given that he has reverted to his old ways, does that mean that Raylan's skepticism was warranted the whole time? Was it bad writing to have him turn again before he ever gained Raylan's trust or does it simply show how difficult it is for people to truly turn away from evil? While I was personally hoping Boyd would stay on the righteous path, I can see merit in showing that even the most sincere attempts at redemption can end in failure. I wouldn't characterize Belkar's character growth to have been as sincere, thus far, as Boyd's was, though it has shown signs of moving that way. Still, I think there are plenty of ways for Belkar to abandon the path of reform that could still involve good and compelling storytelling. If Belkar did, in fact, share in the same illusion experience as the rest of the party, for instance, seeing his own death and the indifference with which it was met could push him back toward acting solely for his own gratification once more, just as easily as it could inspire him toward redoubled efforts to earn the respect of his companions.

[davidbofinger]

Given Belkar is still standing, not likely. I think no more than maybe 20-30 minutes has passed.

That might just be how long had passed when we last saw Belkar's face. Since then we've had a spiral montage and a strip that recalled how the characters lived through their many fantasies. What precedent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html) we have suggests there's no free passes in the OOTSverse - a lot of experience takes a lot of time.

[DragonclawExia]

On the flip side, it might work like Time in a Dream...in that your actually jumping through events, and you can go home to work without actually driving your car back at all.

So only the events shown even happened within the context of the Illusion, as most of it are just images in their heads....



Or not. Hard to say, Illusions are confusing....

[pearl jam]

On the flip side, it might work like Time in a Dream...in that your actually jumping through events, and you can go home to work without actually driving your car back at all.

So only the events shown even happened within the context of the Illusion, as most of it are just images in their heads....



Or not. Hard to say, Illusions are confusing....

I suspect something like this may be the case.

[Whispri]

On the flip side, it might work like Time in a Dream...in that your actually jumping through events, and you can go home to work without actually driving your car back at all.

So only the events shown even happened within the context of the Illusion, as most of it are just images in their heads....



Or not. Hard to say, Illusions are confusing....

I just don't see how accelerating time within the illusion is beneficial from the point of view of the illusionist. The faster the victim experiences time, the faster the will saves would come.

[3WhiteFox3]

I just don't see how accelerating time within the illusion is beneficial from the point of view of the illusionist. The faster the victim experiences time, the faster the will saves would come.

What if skipping over unimportant parts of the dream is a fundamental aspect of the illusion? If it operates via the subject's subconscious, those skips are the natural byproduct, since our subconscious only thinks of the important details and the intermediary steps are blurred and hazy because we don't assign as much importance to them.

There is a benefit to skipping trivial matters as well, the more of the illusion that is shown, the more likely someone will see something that strikes them as odd enough to make the will save. So by skipping parts of the dream that are glossed over by the subconscious you are making it so that they only experience what is desirable to them. What we tend to remember most in life are the highs and lows after all, the in-between stuff is more realistic and against the nature of the illusion.

[Kish]

I just don't see how accelerating time within the illusion is beneficial from the point of view of the illusionist. The faster the victim experiences time, the faster the will saves would come.
Why are you assuming the illusion allows Will saves?

[3WhiteFox3]

Why are you assuming the illusion allows Will saves?

That's a legitimate point, what if that's the ingeniousness of it? Because you want to believe in the illusion, you never get a Will Save against it. You actually have to question the situation around you and find out where things break down. Normally, this is extremely difficult seeing as how it is the nature of things that people want to believe in their goals and desires.

However, Elan was at a tipping point, he has had to deal with the fact that his plan with Durkon is no longer possible thanks to his death. He is coming to the realization that his Dad is a dangerous man, that they might lose and he can't use spells to save the day and fix his family. However, the idea of the impossible happy ending was still appealing to him on a fundamental level. And because he realized that, the illusion ran into an issue. What Elan once desired was no longer acceptable to him; and I don't think that he's going to just give up on resolving the issues with Tarquin and Nale, but he's going to think through his solution and his goals this time. Coming up with his actual happy ending.

About Belkar, my theory is that since the runes are still glowing, the illusion is still running on someone, which suggests that Belkar may have been put into a separate illusion all together.

[Sunken Valley]

1 or 2 hours

[Whispri]

What if skipping over unimportant parts of the dream is a fundamental aspect of the illusion? If it operates via the subject's subconscious, those skips are the natural byproduct, since our subconscious only thinks of the important details and the intermediary steps are blurred and hazy because we don't assign as much importance to them.

There is a benefit to skipping trivial matters as well, the more of the illusion that is shown, the more likely someone will see something that strikes them as odd enough to make the will save. So by skipping parts of the dream that are glossed over by the subconscious you are making it so that they only experience what is desirable to them. What we tend to remember most in life are the highs and lows after all, the in-between stuff is more realistic and against the nature of the illusion.

You're describing an illusion that is inferior in all respects to an illusion of a pit trap for them to be stuck in. Or an illusion of the pyramid for them to explore. Cutting corners sounds like an excellent way of making the happy ending seem unreal.


Why are you assuming the illusion allows Will saves?

*Glances at latest page* Why are you even asking that question? Does it matter either way? Point is, the spell can be broken. The defenders don't gain from that moment coming sooner than it has to.

[Kish]

*Glances at latest page* Why are you even asking that question?

Why am I asking why you're assuming the illusion allows a Will save? Uh, perhaps because you posted assuming the illusion allows a Will save?

Does it matter either way? Point is, the spell can be broken.
...Yes, it matters. Your previous post only makes sense in the presence of, "When you get to this point in the illusion you make a Will save," or some alternative version of, "When you get to this point in the illusion you're especially likely to break out." But no such assumption is valid.

I doubt very much that the Order has been standing there for weeks, or days. Probably not even hours.

[Whispri]

Why am I asking why you're assuming the illusion allows a Will save? Uh, perhaps because you posted assuming the illusion allows a Will save?

...Yes, it matters. Your previous post only makes sense in the presence of, "When you get to this point in the illusion you make a Will save," or some alternative version of, "When you get to this point in the illusion you're especially likely to break out." But no such assumption is valid.

I doubt very much that the Order has been standing there for weeks, or days. Probably not even hours.
And why, pray tell, does that conclusion surprise you?

The precise mechanical details of the spell's collapse are completely irrelevant. All that matters, is that the illusion failed. Accelerating time for the victims of this sorcery would be a stupid, pointless risk that would gain the caster nothing.

[pearl jam]

And why, pray tell, does that conclusion surprise you?

The precise mechanical details of the spell's collapse are completely irrelevant. All that matters, is that the illusion failed. Accelerating time for the victims of this sorcery would be a stupid, pointless risk that would gain the caster nothing.

You are assuming that accelerating time or not accelerating time is a choice of the caster. If accelerated time is simply a function of dreaming, which it could easily be, then it's no longer a pointless risk that gains the caster nothing; it's just a fact of the method being employed.

[Kish]

And why, pray tell, does that conclusion surprise you?

This seems to be a reply to a different post than I made.


The precise mechanical details of the spell's collapse are completely irrelevant. All that matters, is that the illusion failed. Accelerating time for the victims of this sorcery would be a stupid, pointless risk that would gain the caster nothing.
I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

Again: I doubt very much that the Order has been standing there for weeks, or days. Probably not even hours. You can theorize that it is in some mysterious way bad for the spell if a week appears, to people affected by the spell, to pass in anything less than an actual week, but if you're betting on in-comic months having passed for the Order, I think you're in for disappointment.

[King of Nowhere]

yes, there is no advantage at all to make the spell more complex to make time pass faster for the people involved.

There is also no advantage in having an illusion to trap an enemy that also keep him nourished, so we must assume not enough time passed for them to feel malnutrition.

Therefore, the idea that it works like a dream, where your mind can skip the boring parts, is the most reasonable.

[EmperorSarda]

Since then we've had a spiral montage and a strip that recalled how the characters lived through their many fantasies. What precedent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html) we have suggests there's no free passes in the OOTSverse - a lot of experience takes a lot of time.

Actually that isn't precedent at all. Roy is in a different plan and experiencing things differently. An illusion is all in the mind. And thus can trick a mind that more time has passed. Instead of a lot of time passing and thinking only a small amount has passed, it could be them thinking a lot of time has passed with only a little passing.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Allowing saves (repeatedly, no less?!) would weaken the spell considerably. And another ultra-custom epic spell we've seen (Familicide) doesn't appear to allow saves. (Yes I realize epic spells are all custom, but that was above-and-beyond, and this might be too.) If all it takes to break it is making a disbelieve check, even a really high-DC Will save, then I'm sure something else would have accomplished the trap's goal (whatever it is) much more effectively. It seems like non-players are using "make a save" as a synonym for "break the spell", and it's not.

Also, as pearl jam mentioned above, the speed of time passing may not be a variable that the caster can affect.

The idea that the dreamers are also seeing a montage (of sorts) seems inelegant to me, but I don't think there is any evidence against it.

[EmperorSarda]

The idea that the dreamers are also seeing a montage (of sorts) seems inelegant to me, but I don't think there is any evidence against it.

Honestly, I think we saw a montage. They didn't. They lived through it all. Hence Elan saying, "I don't think that ANYTHING has really happened for a long time."

[DaggerPen]

I doubt Rich would pull a stealth timeskip on us twice - this, combined with the fact that the Order doesn't seem to have any outward signs of an extended progression of time (stubble, dust, thirst, the need to take a - Horace!, etc.) makes me think that it's probably only been about half an hour to two hours. I imagine they'll have just enough time to figure out what's up with Belkar and plan to use the illusion trap against the Linear Guild. Also, I would have expected V to have found them by now if it'd been any overly long stretch of time.

[rodneyAnonymous]

...it's probably only been about half an hour to two hours.

Unless they got stuck in the Hallway of Dreams too, the Linear Guild would have found them I think. I guess minutes, not hours.

[EmperorSarda]

I doubt Rich would pull a stealth timeskip on us twice - this, combined with the fact that the Order doesn't seem to have any outward signs of an extended progression of time (stubble, dust, thirst, the need to take a - Horace!, etc.) makes me think that it's probably only been about half an hour to two hours. I imagine they'll have just enough time to figure out what's up with Belkar and plan to use the illusion trap against the Linear Guild. Also, I would have expected V to have found them by now if it'd been any overly long stretch of time.

That's not what I am saying. I am saying weeks could have passed in the illusion, but maybe at most a half hour to an hour in real time.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Alright, so at this point I'm guessing that mostly everyone is on board with saying that the Order doesn't seem to have been cooped up in the illusion for as long as the whole sequence would have taken in reality. The question is: Why not?

I think that the illusion has simply been giving them a series of happy events without filling in the gaps between them. As with the Sunken Valley, they just sort of automatically fill in the lost time on their own, writing it all off as uninteresting and focusing on appreciating the new situation.

This does provide something of an advantage: spending several days bored on a ship bound for Cliffport or doing a drawn-out stakeout for the resistance would provide one's mind with ample opportunity to stare at one's surroundings and start asking questions, which can cause the whole thing to break down in a hurry. Thus, Gerard's goal in crafting it was probably not just to keep the subjects happy, but also to keep them busy.

[DaggerPen]

Unless they got stuck in the Hallway of Dreams too, the Linear Guild would have found them I think. I guess minutes, not hours.

Well, there was at least the ten-minute casting time to summon the fiends, plus the time for Malack to find the party and regroup in the first place. Given that Belkar wasn't sure what hallway he came down, unless Durkula's leading the way, it's possible that they could have checked some other hallways first. You're probably right about that, though - two hours was my "at the absolute most" time elapsed guess, not a "I think it's probably been at least an hour" guess. I imagine it's been closer to half an hour, maybe even only 20 minutes.


That's not what I am saying. I am saying weeks could have passed in the illusion, but maybe at most a half hour to an hour in real time.

I... know? I was agreeing that only a fraction of the elapsed illusion time had passed?


Alright, so at this point I'm guessing that mostly everyone is on board with saying that the Order doesn't seem to have been cooped up in the illusion for as long as the whole sequence would have taken in reality. The question is: Why not?

I think that the illusion has simply been giving them a series of happy events without filling in the gaps between them. As with the Sunken Valley, they just sort of automatically fill in the lost time on their own, writing it all off as uninteresting and focusing on appreciating the new situation.

This does provide something of an advantage: spending several days bored on a ship bound for Cliffport or doing a drawn-out stakeout for the resistance would provide one's mind with ample opportunity to stare at one's surroundings and start asking questions, which can cause the whole thing to break down in a hurry. Thus, Gerard's goal in crafting it was probably not just to keep the subjects happy, but also to keep them busy.

That sounds like pretty sound reasoning. The risk of people noticing that they were hopping from big event to big event as you might do in a dream seems much less than the risk of trying to simulate the exact tedium of a boat ride purely from someone's mind without something slipping up, as you say.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think that the illusion has simply been giving them a series of happy events without filling in the gaps between them. As with the Sunken Valley, they just sort of automatically fill in the lost time on their own, writing it all off as uninteresting and focusing on appreciating the new situation.

This does provide something of an advantage: spending several days bored on a ship bound for Cliffport or doing a drawn-out stakeout for the resistance would provide one's mind with ample opportunity to stare at one's surroundings and start asking questions, which can cause the whole thing to break down in a hurry. Thus, Gerard's goal in crafting it was probably not just to keep the subjects happy, but also to keep them busy.

That is the best explanation of the "montage" idea that I've read. Plausible. I prefer "they experienced all of it" but by a much more narrow margin than before.

[gamephil]

However, Elan was at a tipping point, he has had to deal with the fact that his plan with Durkon is no longer possible thanks to his death.

Is Elan's plan no longer possible? He purposely didn't reveal it to us, and there is no reason to withhold it from us if it was going to be meaningless.

[Whispri]

Well the illusion's confirmed as worthless (or at least fatally flawed) if Roy's right, but why waste a finished post?


You are assuming that accelerating time or not accelerating time is a choice of the caster. If accelerated time is simply a function of dreaming, which it could easily be, then it's no longer a pointless risk that gains the caster nothing; it's just a fact of the method being employed.

Problem with that is that they weren't sent into an enchanted sleep, the spell had to fool their waking minds. And also of course, that a skillfully placed illusion covering a fiendishly inescapable pit trap would make for a better method of delaying intruders.


yes, there is no advantage at all to make the spell more complex to make time pass faster for the people involved.

There is also no advantage in having an illusion to trap an enemy that also keep him nourished, so we must assume not enough time passed for them to feel malnutrition.

Therefore, the idea that it works like a dream, where your mind can skip the boring parts, is the most reasonable.

Preventing the illusion from being broken by thirsts that never quench sounds like a fine advantage. As does the taking of prisoners. Lirian could have destroyed Redcloak and Xykon, she chose to imprison them instead. This spell could well have had a similar intent, showing mercy to the vanquished.

As for the skipping, that would risk taking the victims out of sync. I mean, if they split off to do cool things planning to meet in ten hours time, but Roy's fun lasts hours longer than that of the others, how can they skip the boring bits and still meet up as planned?

[3WhiteFox3]

Is Elan's plan no longer possible? He purposely didn't reveal it to us, and there is no reason to withhold it from us if it was going to be meaningless.
He might not be thinking about it right this second, he's gone through alot. I personally think that it might be revealed to the Linear Guild via Durkon (or at least what elan was planning on doing).

What we know is that the plan relied on Durkon, and he's not capable of helping anyone for the foreseeable future. I don't know but it seems like the plan won't be able to go very far, or at the very least will have to be changed.

[Kish]

Preventing the illusion from being broken by thirsts that never quench sounds like a fine advantage.

There is no indication that the illusion would be broken by thirst...


As for the skipping, that would risk taking the victims out of sync.

...or involves the victims moving out of sync. Indeed, the observable effect of the runes involved the same time-skips for everyone, with everyone perforce being at Tarquin and Elan's Mother's wedding even though Roy is really unlikely to have chosen to be at Tarquin's wedding...or to have chosen to ever see Elan again once the quest was over, for that matter, if he could make such a choice without hurting Elan's feelings.

I get that, for some reason, you really wanted weeks or months to have passed, but the fact that they didn't doesn't mean the illusion is either worthless or "fatally flawed."

[jogiff]

I believe that they've been trapped in the illusion for a few months.

They were unknowingly Plane Shifted a couple of times during the Battle for Azure City until they eventually ended up in Girard's Pyramid through sheer chance. Durkon and Vaarsuvius both made their will saves against Plane Shift and Nale secretly took Elan's place and adventured alongside Vaarsuvius and Durkon. The reason they haven't starved to death in this time is because someone secretly put Rings of Sustenance on them and they didn't starve to death in the week before they took effect. Roy doesn't need to shave because he was smeared in Sovereign Glue.

[sgobo]

Correct me but to my understanding Belkar and Mr. Scruffy clearly got killed in strip 886.

Both reappear as alive in 890. What happened ?

Assuming Rich knows his storyline I guess we have

one or more cascaded inception-like illusions.

Either that or the illusion started even before the runes began to glow.

[Kish]

Correct me but to my understanding Belkar and Mr. Scruffy clearly got killed in strip 886.

Both reappear as alive in 890.

Both reappear as alive in 886, look again.

Everything from the last panel of 885 to when Elan figured out it was an illusion, was an illusion.

[pearl jam]

I hope that by the end of their journey both Roy and Elan will have grown enough that the idea of willingly spending time together even if not forced to will no longer be distasteful to Roy. :smalltongue:

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

As for the skipping, that would risk taking the victims out of sync. I mean, if they split off to do cool things planning to meet in ten hours time, but Roy's fun lasts hours longer than that of the others, how can they skip the boring bits and still meet up as planned?

That... is actually a pretty good point. I could argue that they each seem to still be around even when the focus is on someone else's dream - the wedding certainly wouldn't have been Roy's cup of tea otherwise - but that raises the question of Haley and Elan's, "private time."

It strikes me that an illusion that powerful could extend to the feedback of one's internal organs, though. That way, you could fool the subject into thinking he's been stuffing his face with delicious cupcakes even as his real body wastes away. If the illusion really does include the long slog of real work that would naturally exist between successes, I doubt that that's the reason.