How to make Dread Necromancer?

[Olfgar]

So im going to be starting in a new campaign soon, where due to lore, there are no Wizards/Sorceres, Clerics or Druids allowed to be played. The DM hoped wed try out some new power systems like Incarnum, or Psionics etc, but allowed the use of 3 specialised casters if you wished: Dread Necro, Battle mage and...Illusionist or something...I dont know...

Anyways, I'm looking for help designing the level and feat layout for my Dread Necro. Would It be more beneficial to add alot of focus towards buffing the undead I can make, or more towards my own combat options? And yes I know, Tomb Tainted Soul is almost a must.

Also, would it be wise to take Arcane Disciple to get into Walker in the Waste?

I would greatly appreciate any help from you guys.

[Waker]

So im going to be starting in a new campaign soon, where due to lore, there are no Wizards/Sorceres, Clerics or Druids allowed to be played. The DM hoped wed try out some new power systems like Incarnum, or Psionics etc, but allowed the use of 3 specialised casters if you wished: Dread Necro, Battle mage and...Illusionist or something...I dont know...

Anyways, I'm looking for help designing the level and feat layout for my Dread Necro. Would It be more beneficial to add alot of focus towards buffing the undead I can make, or more towards my own combat options? And yes I know, Tomb Tainted Soul is almost a must.

Also, would it be wise to take Arcane Disciple to get into Walker in the Waste?

I would greatly appreciate any help from you guys.

Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) is the handbook on Dread Necromancers. And here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is a general guide to necromancy. Those should come in handy.
Defining what is "best" is somewhat tricky. We can make suggestions based on which playstyle you prefer. Anyways, Dread Necromancer's big deal is their excellent control of the undead. You can either go with a small number of big brutes or you can have a shambling horde. Both options have their advantages, but I would generally suggest the former option just to not clutter the turn order too much.
For your race, people will of course suggest Necropolitan or you could rely instead on Tomb-Tainted Soul.

So the big question though is, what do you want to do with this character?

[Deaxsa]

no offense, but isn't making a dread necro kinda defeating the point of the DM pushing other systems?

[Waker]

no offense, but isn't making a dread necro kinda defeating the point of the DM pushing other systems?

A bit, but if that's what they want to play. Frankly I would love it if a DM encouraged the use of the other magic systems. I despise Vancian casting.

[Olfgar]

no offense, but isn't making a dread necro kinda defeating the point of the DM pushing other systems?Yes, yes it is. While he likes things like Incarnum, and Binding and what not, it hasn't really gripped me the same way so im not all to interested.

Also, he specifically told us that "Battlemage, Dread Necro, and Illusionist (i think illusionist) is ok for being primary casters."

Of course mixed hings like Paladins, Duskblades etc are still good to use for the most part so I was also tossing those ideas around, but decided on Dread For now.

For play style I would agree about keeping a smaller group of undead, not only to sream line my turn a bit but also, the shambling horde could probably be wiped out fairly easily due to being substantially weaker.

Id obviously take a feat or two to make my undead better (I`ll ask my DM if Undead Mastery can act in place of Corpsecrafter since id basically does the same thing), but im deciding between being more Melee oriented or Caster.

If anyone has experience doing both heavy spell casting and melee with a dread necro could let me know what is mroe succesfull or if the melee option just get you wrecked, that would be appreciated.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Dread Necromancer is already, at its basis, a decent spellcaster for debuff and battlefield control. The utility power of ghoul touch as a 2nd level spell cannot be denied. Besides such huge powers, I'd suggest that if you wanted tanky to build a Necropolitian and dump Con. Then, make sure you were created in the zone of a desecrate spell, to give you a boost to hp. Your negative energy touch should give you all the healing you need. Get corspecrafter to later on gain the negative energy burst effect with your destroyed skellies, and take either 2 levels or more of pale master to begin with your army.

[mangosta71]

What's the starting level? If it's 3+ and necropolitan is allowed...

I prefer to keep DNs at range. Especially since you can deliver all of your touch spells via spectral hand from range, and gain a bonus to the attack roll to boot. By RAW, you can also use spectral hand to cast animate dead and raise an army with a single cast.

[Xervous]

The third specialist caster you are thinking of is the Beguiler.

Arcane Disciple alone will not qualify you for Walker in the Waste because the domain spells are cast as Arcane. You would also need Southern Magician (which is campaign setting) or Alternate Spell Source (forget its source).

Earliest entry I see is at 6th level without flaws.

Race: Ashertai -> heat endurance
1st: Arcane Disciple
3rd: Southern Magician
5th: obtain level 3 spells
6th: enter WitW
15th: become dry lich

With a single flaw, you could take versatile spellcaster and enter at 4th level, achieving Dry-Lichdom at 13th level.

Also, if you do plan on going WitW, make sure to start out as a Necropolitan who dumped CON before his Crucimigration, and also make sure you are getting the Dry-Lich template free of LA, otherwise its a sucky choice.

[Olfgar]

also make sure you are getting the Dry-Lich template free of LA, otherwise its a sucky choice.
Where can i find the non LA template. or is it you just suggest I beg him to not give me the LA as is?

[Olfgar]

Also, i I think the starting level is 3 or 4. So I was considering starting as a Human, mainly because I dont like the Ashertai, and because we can pick the PF versions of base races so a free feat AND +2 to any stat, and picking the necropolitan template to avoid needing Tomb Tainted Soul for my self heals.

Then my path would look like this.

1st: Heat Endurance, Arcane Disciple (Probably Thirst), +2 to any stat.

3rd: Probably either a Metamagic feat for later, or Corpsecrafter (to either stack that bit of health from Undead Mastery, and/or open up the sub feats like Nimble Bones if my DM wont let me use Undead mastery as corpse crafter since that CF does the exact same thing ad I only get 2 bonus hp/hd for my undead form taking the feat).

4th: Get access to 2nd level spells

6th: Southern magician is now able to be taken as of 2 levels ago. At this point I can just jump into WitW, especially if I took Corpsecrafter at 3rd (only thing I loose out on is the +4 Dex bonus to my undead from Undead Mastery. Only thing is I need to waste a feat on that.

So my options are waste a feat to get slightly less than what I would get as a CF at 8th level, and become a dry lich at 15, or take Dread Necro to 8, save a feat and gain lich-dom at 18.

[Xervous]

Derp, totally overlooked the fact that DNs go on sorc progression.

Getting into prestiges ealier that you are taking because of their capstones is generally good, because it means you get that juicy steak sooner rather than later (possibly never) and have more time to play around with it. Meatier zombies are nice, but so is running around with 5 phylacteries stowed away ensuring your perpetual existence, not to mention you'll have a ton of hitpoints with your charisma score getting tacked on. Besides, you can always get those 2 levels of DN later.

Typically, whenever a class grants a template, it is expected that the template is free of LA because the player usually invested 10 class levels into building towards it.

Would you say that a dragon disciple suddenly eats +3LA when he obtains his 10th level? Nope.

[Olfgar]

Touche. I probably will take it then. Only downside is i get Dry Lich at 16 instead of 15, since you know...I will only qualify for it starting at lvl 6 so level 7 is my first WitW level.

Besides, i can just take corpse crafter or something for my 3rd level feet if i really want it.

[The Viscount]

Also, if you do plan on going WitW, make sure to start out as a Necropolitan who dumped CON before his Crucimigration, and also make sure you are getting the Dry-Lich template free of LA, otherwise its a sucky choice.

You'd need a true resurrection before you could gain the capstone if you go necropolitan.

[Jeff the Green]

You'd need a true resurrection before you could gain the capstone if you go necropolitan.

Which costs 26,530 GP from an NPC caster, a little over 13% of WBL at 15th level. Or use a resurrection instead, which would make you lose a level (XP is a river and all) but only cost 10,910 GP, or 5.4% of WBL.

[Mithril Leaf]

Touche. I probably will take it then. Only downside is i get Dry Lich at 16 instead of 15, since you know...I will only qualify for it starting at lvl 6 so level 7 is my first WitW level.

Besides, i can just take corpse crafter or something for my 3rd level feet if i really want it.

Versatile Spellcaster.

[Talya]

Also, he specifically told us that "Battlemage, Dread Necro, and Illusionist (i think illusionist) is ok for being primary casters."


I think he probably said (or at least meant) "Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler."

(Illusionist is a specialist wizard.)

These three classes are all similar in design, with a different focus. In my opinion, you've picked by far the one of them with the highest potential.

The guides that were linked are really important. You will need to find out if he is going to allow you to play undead yourself. (Necropolitan is great for Dread Necromancers.) Then you need to decide how frustrated you want to make your DM.

While the dread necromancer is not overpowered by any means, it has by far the most potential to bring combat to a screeching halt once you hit level 8 as the DM has a conniption trying to figure out how to manage combat for the massive army of the walking dead zombie-apocalypse you have acquired. This is my main problem with the class...there's no mass combat system for the armies you will eventually have at your disposal.

You can get around this if your DM is willing to find you some dragon corpses to make zombies out of. Draconic zombies are wonderful minions, and eat up your hit die totals for controlled minions quickly. (Zombie Dragon template is in Draconomicon, if I remember correctly.) A Zombie Great Red Wyrm is 40 HD of awesome mounted flying fun. Good luck finding that corpse, however.

[Jeff the Green]

While the dread necromancer is not overpowered by any means, it has by far the most potential to bring combat to a screeching halt as the DM has a conniption trying to figure out how to manage combat for the massive army of the walking dead zombie-apocalypse you have acquired. This is my main problem with the class...there's no mass combat system for the armies you will eventually have at your disposal.

This is part of why I prefer playing either fear-based DNs (Dread Dread Witch) or have one or two beefy monsters instead of a bunch of weak ones. Seek out the most powerful corporeal creature you can reasonably expect to beat, kill it, and animate it as a zombie. One or two of those should fill up your HD limit.

[Talya]

This is part of why I prefer playing either fear-based DNs (Dread Dread Witch) or have one or two beefy monsters instead of a bunch of weak ones. Seek out the most powerful corporeal creature you can reasonably expect to beat, kill it, and animate it as a zombie. One or two of those should fill up your HD limit.

Zombies cap at 10 HD creatures unless they are draconic. (they get double their original hit dice, though.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The fear-based gish build already incorporates Southern Magician, so that might be an option to go with everything else.

Also, a one-level dip into Sand Shaper, while it costs you a casting level, will net you all the spells you need without needing Arcane Disciple, saving you a feat and giving you several useful spells and some interesting utility.

So you're probably looking at Dread Necro5/SandSahper1/WitW10/Dread Witch4 for the full 20 level build.

Unfortunately, this build doesn't net you Aura of Terror since you never hit Dread Necro 8 at any point, and you have to take Dread Necro 4 before being able to jump out. Which means you can't pull the Aura of Terror + Black Lore of Moil + Fell Frighten trick for passive fear generation.

You lose 3 spell levels total, one from Sandshaper, one from WitW and 1 from Dread Witch. Which means no 9th level spells pre-epic without extreme shenanigans.

[Olfgar]

I think he probably said (or at least meant) "Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler."

(Illusionist is a specialist wizard.)

These three classes are all similar in design, with a different focus. In my opinion, you've picked by far the one of them with the highest potential.

The guides that were linked are really important. You will need to find out if he is going to allow you to play undead yourself. (Necropolitan is great for Dread Necromancers.) Then you need to decide how frustrated you want to make your DM.

While the dread necromancer is not overpowered by any means, it has by far the most potential to bring combat to a screeching halt once you hit level 8 as the DM has a conniption trying to figure out how to manage combat for the massive army of the walking dead zombie-apocalypse you have acquired. This is my main problem with the class...there's no mass combat system for the armies you will eventually have at your disposal.

You can get around this if your DM is willing to find you some dragon corpses to make zombies out of. Draconic zombies are wonderful minions, and eat up your hit die totals for controlled minions quickly. (Zombie Dragon template is in Draconomicon, if I remember correctly.) A Zombie Great Red Wyrm is 40 HD of awesome mounted flying fun. Good luck finding that corpse, however.

Yes i did mean Warmage and Beguiler, but i didnt remember the names lol.

I was planning to just find higher HD undead to take up more HD space and to you know...last a bit longer then swarms of low HD ones. Also the true res and stuff wont matter that much, i like hoarding money for things.

[mangosta71]

If Frostburn is allowed, once you've hit level 8 in Dread Necro you can create all the dragon zombies you want. Shivering Touch is a beautiful thing.

[Waitingnomad]

Would definitely recommend going down the Necropolitan Route- TTS is a feat that could be spent elsewhere, and if you take Necropolitan early enough then the -1000XP really doesn't make a dent, especially for all the wonderfully tasty undead immunities you get.

Dread Necros are the king of the zombie hoards, and you should be looking at the Corpsecrafter line of feats to supplement your undead. Some of the feats are fairly useless, like Deadly Chill, some are great, like Nimble Bones and Hardened Flesh (which stacks with the bonuses you get from being a Dread Necro), and some are otherwise useless, but depending on the tactics you use can be incredible. For example, Destruction Retribution is next to useless in most cases, as you don't want your zombies to die. However, when combined with nasty little techniques like gathering swarms of undead vermin and launching a barrage of little rat bombs for 1d6 damage each when combined with any mild AoE spell to kill the rats- provided you have no allies in the vicinity you get an instant rat nuke.

Other stuff you want: items to increase your turning e.g. Ephod of Authority, and Knowledge: Religion synergy bonuses- all of this adds to your rebuking. DNs also get a nifty bunch of familiars, such as the Quasit or Ghostly Visage (ignore the rest- the imp is OK, but these two are by far the best), which themselves increase your HD cap. You can also spellstitch yourself for added SR, DR, TR and a +2 to all your saves.

Also look into prestige classes like Walker in the Wastes, which comes with a fantastic Lich template with 6 phylacteries and a host of other tasty class abilities. Another good one to consider is the Tainted Scholar- this PrC is so OP that you will have to take care not to break the game with it, but its fantastic with the Necropolitan template, as you automatically gain corruption for taking the template. It also uses a slightly different spellcasting system, so it would fit well into your DM's plan for you to try out different classes. Divine Oracle is another good one (and interestingly doesn't have to cast as a divine spellcaster).

If you have melee chars in the party and don't want to kill them all with rat nukes, then abstain from destruction retribution entirely, as its a pretty useless feat without that tactic and pick up some good metamagic feats instead. Then apply the Arcane Thesis feat to Enervation so that you can cast Maximised Empowered Split-ray Enervation spells in 8th level slots and deal 12 negative levels per turn. If you are making rat nukes, do this anyway. Then apply Fell Drain to Black Tentacles, and grapple everything to deal a negative level per round to everything you've grappled. Then hit them with enervation and Fell Drained Swarms. Then the next day Command Undead on your newly created army of wights, and send them off to do horrible things to the populace. You win.

Another thing to bear in mind is the traditional archetype of the undead controller- you want to avoid large hoardes of poor-quality undead, which are a pain to keep track of and end up being next to useless at higher levels anyway (except as meaty trap finders) and instead stick to a small number of powerful undead, which will all be skeletons, not zombies (as zombies suck), and should be properly equipped with armour and weapons. Consider spellstitching them too, and make sure every undead you create is done in a desecrated area for bonus XP. If you find a dragon, make that a zombie, because skeletons can't fly and now you have a flying zombie dragon tank, which isn't too shabby. Then spellstitch that too
Then name it fluffy.

[JaronK]

By the way, this guide to Advanced Learning might help you.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10037.0

JaronK