Experience Points, The Abstraction Thereof, and Their Usefulness to the Game

[Deth Muncher]

Ooookay. I come into this discussion understanding that this may be a touchy subject, but I wanted to get other peoples' advice and input on it, because I trust the collective Playground hivemind. Basically, here's my problem: I never learned to use experience points as a DM. Admittedly, this is a gaffe on my part - I mean, they're a part of the game, right? They need to be used! Except I've never, in a game I've played in nor DM'd, ever used experience points to determine level. We've always basically levelled up when the story called for it, assuming that after doing something suitably awesome we were rewarded for our victory.

But I know a lot of people don't play like that, some of whom being people I will be having in a campaign of mine over the summer. And so, I am at a point in my DMing career where I need to grasp the concept of how to implement XP in game. Now, this boils down into two major things, which are what I need your help and input on specifically.

-Granting XP on the fly - that is to say, how to eyeball experience point awards from things that I make up, such as custom creatures, traps, etc. I know there's a rough guide somewhere in the Core books of 3.5 (I'm playing D&D 3.5, by the way, if that wasn't already clear), but basically, for those of you who do the more on-the-fly style DMing, how do you award XP? Or for those of you who enjoy planning all of that out way beforehand, how do you go about planning things out for things that aren't expressly listed?

-The XP/Wealth relationship. Now, I know that in the olden days, there was a ratio of 1XP/5GP. What I'm wondering is if that's viable to have an exchange set up in game (via proper roleplaying parameters, of course) of sacrificing wealth for experience points, or vice versa. While that certainly borders on breaching even the strongest bounds of verisimilitude, is the flexibility that offers worth it? And by proper roleplaying parameters, I mean something like instead of trying to hock the crossbows the party got from slaying the goblins, they donate them to the town guard for an appropriate XP gain kind of thing, or sacrifice a magic item to their diety, or what have you.

[Sylthia]

I think the experience tables for 3.5 are protected, but CR=APL should be a moderate-easy challenge fight for a party of four. Divide the amount of experience the monsters give between the amount of people in your party.

I usually give an amount of XP equal to a CR appropriate fight for "role-playing" encounters, and generally round up to the nearest 100 (or more at higher levels) at the end of the night for good RP.

I find it good to track XP just to gauge how long it should take the party to level, but don't be too beholden to it. It just helps keep the pacing, so you don't level too fast or too slow, which can be hard to track if you aren't meeting every week.

[Eslin]

I don't usually have experience points as an abstraction at all - the name may be different depending on who is talking about it (experience, ki, soul energy, life force), but amongst those with a decent knowledge of the metaphysical it is well understood that as someone grows in experience and ability (and by besting powerful foes) their soul attracts more and more energy which permeates their mind and body, so that a warrior who has won a thousand battles will have a body so reinforced by the strength of his soul that he can survive a fall from any height and keep fighting despite having recieved any number of wounds that would have been fatal to him as a stripling.

[Krazzman]

Simple answer:
Don't use it if you aren't comfortable with it.

My take would be to say: killing or overcoming things won't grant you exp.
Experience points will be granted depending on progress/completition of story arcs. This means: If you killed Kobolds in a mine and are now back in town you get EP. If you rest in a dungeon where I planned you to level up mid-dungeon you get exp depending on progress. Every third room or so on.

That would be my way to go as I personally dislike "Exp per person". I prefer "Exp as Party".

Hope this helps.

[Xervous]

I personally dislike the overall implementation of experience points in most RPGs for a number of reasons.

The designers most often get something or other wrong so awarding XP quickly tumbles to the point where you, as a DM, have to decide how to fix it.

In 3.5, monster CRs are out of whack and the difficulty of an encounter is highly variable on party composition and the circumstances of the encounter. The basic thing to do here is fudge the numbers to what you feel they should be, but then this may lead to problems. Players may will whine for more XP, and you still need to plan out exactly how much XP you are going to give the players if you want to maintain a desired pace. Without extensive planning, you will inevitably be bogged down with middle-of-session level ups unless you declare that all level ups are to be resolved after the session, which could lead to complaints from the people who level up earlier/or are just ahead of the rest of the party.

Experience points as currency. Here you have another problem in 3.5. Here are a few typical approaches I've seen to handling this.
The first is "Experience is a River" with the crafted items being valued at the WBL invested. This can lead to some horrible discrepancies in power if one person decides to selfishly craft, or at a more basic level abuse the catch-up ideology of Exp is a River.
The second is WBL is WBL. Long story short, crafting doesn't happen here, even with XP is a river.
Then there's the situation with crafted items = WBL invested and no XP is a River. Here you will see less of a discrepancy between those who invested their XP in things other than character leveling, but this creates the very real problem of crafters/XP casters always being a level behind, and most players are not used to games where different classes level at different rates.


Also, the presentation of XP in 3.5 is very systematic in its awarding and can lead to rigidly scheduled level-ups if implemented by RAW. I view this as a bland skinner box, no better than most MMOs. Players become used to the rewards that typically follow combat: sometimes loot, almost always XP. This creates a problem with players who, in their desire to be systematically rewarded, continuously apply the same tactics to achieve their goals. The most common example of this is the party of quasi-murder-hobos. Anything that is perceived as a challenge, anything the DM places on the board that appears threatening or dangerous is immediately assessed as a walking pinata of XP. Players may end up killing NPCs you hoped they wouldn't, or they will dive into hopeless encounters because "Harder = more XP" even if it is an impossible fight.

[RogueDM]

I ran my first few games using experience points, granting experience for social encounters by appropriate level scaled for duration and the nature of the situation. Talking their way out of trouble or to achieve a goal nets more XP than simply sweet talking a barmaid. RPing did grant xp, as I wanted to encourage the players' interactions with the world beyond impaling it on pointy bits of metal.

In my current game, however, I'm doing away with XP as individual rewards and am handing out levels to the party as a whole at moments I feel are appropriate. A handful of minor encounters, or after achieving something epic or doing something average but in a sufficiently epic way. I have found a way to offer incentive for role playing and the like by giving small, relevant, skill rank awards. This may be done away with later, but it is working well at low levels.

I have had one of my players say that they prefer the "Pointless" system as we had routine issues where the DM (not always me, we sort of round-robin the position) and players were conflicted as to whether or not XP had been distributed for a given encounter. Additionally it gives us one less number to track.

I, for one, prefer not using XP because I keep my campaigns fairly open allowing the players to take whatever course they so choose, which means I can end up quickly throwing together encounters I hadn't anticipated and now I don't have to calculate the XP on the fly.

[sreservoir]

Also, the presentation of XP in 3.5 is very systematic in its awarding and can lead to rigidly scheduled level-ups if implemented by RAW. I view this as a bland skinner box, no better than most MMOs. Players become used to the rewards that typically follow combat: sometimes loot, almost always XP. This creates a problem with players who, in their desire to be systematically rewarded, continuously apply the same tactics to achieve their goals. The most common example of this is the party of quasi-murder-hobos. Anything that is perceived as a challenge, anything the DM places on the board that appears threatening or dangerous is immediately assessed as a walking pinata of XP. Players may end up killing NPCs you hoped they wouldn't, or they will dive into hopeless encounters because "Harder = more XP" even if it is an impossible fight.

the "common example" doesn't hold up by RAW, mind.

[Xervous]

I would appreciate some additional information to actually explain where and how I deviated from "Well Minded Opinion" to "Ranting Delusion Fool", which I usually manage to do half the time.

[Rhynn]

-The XP/Wealth relationship. Now, I know that in the olden days, there was a ratio of 1XP/5GP. What I'm wondering is if that's viable to have an exchange set up in game (via proper roleplaying parameters, of course) of sacrificing wealth for experience points, or vice versa. While that certainly borders on breaching even the strongest bounds of verisimilitude, is the flexibility that offers worth it? And by proper roleplaying parameters, I mean something like instead of trying to hock the crossbows the party got from slaying the goblins, they donate them to the town guard for an appropriate XP gain kind of thing, or sacrifice a magic item to their diety, or what have you.

You've got that ratio wildly wrong.

In AD&D 1E and before (and as an optional rule buried in prose in AD&D 2E), PCs get 1 XP for 1 GP worth of treasure (brought back to civilization, not just found).

The other ratio was that, in AD&D 1E and older editions, PCs were expected to get 4/5 of their XP from treasure, and 1/5 from killing monsters. (Story awards were a 2E invention, largely or partly due to the pernicious influence of Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance modules and the trends they embodied!) The XP for GP was the "story award" - it was XP you got for completing your goal, i.e. the search for treasure, fame, and glory. Obviously, too, there was much less XP available by just fighting monsters (good luck leveling to 20 in AD&D just by killing monsters; that's 3,000,000 XP or something like 300 adult+ dragons by yourself), and since most of the XP wasn't to be gained from fighting, and fighting was very chancy and pretty dangerous, it wasn't an optimal way to solve problems. Better to talk, outwit, sneak past, etc. the monsters and steal the treasure.

There were also "carousing" rules, where you only got this XP for GP if you spent those GP, and specifically spent them on something that did not otherwise directly benefit you - carousing, temple donations, or undefined "magical research" (that got you no other benefit, but obviously did make you a more powerful magic-user over time).

Edit: I was actually just talking about this to someone... in D&D 3.X, a 20th-level fighter has earned 190,000 XP and 880,000 gp (the 760,000 is the left-over after consumable expenditures up to that level). In AD&D 1E, a 20th-level fighter has earned 3,000,001 XP and ~2,400,000 gp. A wild difference not only in numbers but in the ratios between XP and GP earned.

[TuggyNE]

You've got that ratio wildly wrong.

Well, more precisely, misapplying a ratio from a different edition. There is in fact a 1:5 XP:gold ratio, but it's in 3.x, and it applies primarily to crafting and spellcasting services, not to XP gain.

[Rhynn]

Well, more precisely, misapplying a ratio from a different edition. There is in fact a 1:5 XP:gold ratio, but it's in 3.x, and it applies primarily to crafting and spellcasting services, not to XP gain.

Ah, that's what I thought at first. I went to check magic item crafting, but that was 1:25, but it's casting spells with XP cost that's 1:5, right?

[Seharvepernfan]

I just go by the book.

I recently ran a real-life 1st level adventure for six people. It had creatures ranging from CR 1/8 to CR 4 (an aranea, which really should have been CR 3 or 2). I figured having one powerful monster around to avoid and be afraid of would help keep the virisimilitude (spelling?). Most were less than CR 1.
I gave them the exact experience the book said to. I also rolled up random treasure for each enemy in the adventure, to be placed somewhere in the dungeon, either worn, hidden, or just laying around (for enemies with less than CR 1, I added them together to get the CR).

It worked out pretty well. That said, I think they leveled up a bit quickly, but I do prefer a slower pace.

[Amphetryon]

For my current game (reassembly of the Rot7P) I'm just letting them gain a level whenever they recover one of the quest pieces.

For my next game - slated for the completion of that one or the TPK that kills it - I've told them it will be an old-fashioned Dungeon Crawl, and every time they clear a level, they'll go up a level.

In both cases, any PC who loses a level will have to wait an extra session (per level lost, if need be) to "catch up."

Unless you have PCs who are really interested in Crafting, there's little reason not to slaughter this particular Sacred Cow.

[TuggyNE]

Ah, that's what I thought at first. I went to check magic item crafting, but that was 1:25, but it's casting spells with XP cost that's 1:5, right?

Also crafting items with spells that have an XP cost, yes, which is what I was remembering.

[Xervous]

Also, removing XP leaves you in an odd spot with those spells (and more often powers) that cost a few hundred of XP apiece, and later the ones that cost thousands.

[Maginomicon]

If you have the Unearthed Arcana book, there's a variant in there that didn't make it into the OGC called "Level-Independent XP Awards". It presents a simplified approach to XP handling and even addresses XP crafting imbalances.

Anyway, in addition to that, I use the Pathfinder encounter generation method (but using Unearthed Arcana's XP awards for encounters instead of the tables in the PFSRD, which is arguably very similarly handled), so you could just choose to use PF's XP awards system if you want something OGC to reference.

When I combine UA's Level-Independent values with PF's encounter generation method, a CR 5 encounter has a flat 1800 XP budget which you fill with the CRs of other creatures. That means a CR 5 encounter can contain a single CR 5 monster (1800 XP), or a CR 4 monster (1200 XP) plus a CR 2 monster (600 XP), or two CR 3 monsters (900 XP each), or six CR 1 monsters (300 XP each), or any combination of the above that adds up to 1800 XP. Usually you'll want to use a budget size of a CR equal to "Average Party Level + 1" to make it challenging (although personally I use APL+2 as a starting point because long-story-short that's just how I roll).

[prufock]

Problem solved (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/). (?) Never worry about calculating XP or reward values again.

XP required to level up is (current level * 1000), cumulative.

[Zombimode]

-Granting XP on the fly - that is to say, how to eyeball experience point awards from things that I make up, such as custom creatures, traps, etc. I know there's a rough guide somewhere in the Core books of 3.5 (I'm playing D&D 3.5, by the way, if that wasn't already clear), but basically, for those of you who do the more on-the-fly style DMing, how do you award XP? Or for those of you who enjoy planning all of that out way beforehand, how do you go about planning things out for things that aren't expressly listed?

For traps you could use the guidelines in the DMG or eyeball them.
For creatures, when your custom creature is not a modified version of an existing creature (in this case, the rules tell you what CR it is) you could use Vorpal Tribble's CR calculator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-192329.html). Or eyeball it.

If you wonder on how to calculate the exp for encounters, just don't. Use this tool (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) instead.
Don't let determining EXP rewards slow down your game. Hand out exp after the session. Like on the next day. Send it per mail and/or have a file everyone has access to that details the exp rewards.

For exp rewards of non-trap, non-combat encounters, you're pretty much on your own. There aren't any rules for it.

Personally, I use the following system:

There are three classes of difficulty of tasks (or quests or goals or what-you-have): medium, hard, very hard. Succeeding at a tasks rewards all participating characters with 50 * difficulty * ecl exp.

Example: The party is imprisoned. Task: escape! Difficulty: hard. The party is level 4. If they succeed, every character would get 50 * 2 * 4 = 400 exp (thats equivalent to a EL 5 encounter, mind you).
For me that works pretty well. Maybe the number are off for higher levels (I don't care about those, since I'm player E6), I can't tell.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan
I just go by the book.

I'm pretty much with our Cydonian friend here. I usually work up XP based on the encounter tables and award bonus XP on a situational basis. Never had a problem with this approach.

Now, in one campaign I did level the group after they survived an overwhelming, you-all-really-shoulda-died-horribly encounter, which the party fought their way out of brilliantly. It was their first major encounter of the campaign and a genuine trial by fire, and the roleplaying afterwards was excellent. An experience like that should rattle the characters to their core, and they leveled up overnight to reflect their hard-won passage.

But this was the one exception in my experience as a DM; apart from that event, I've used the encounter tables and it's worked out fine.

[Deth Muncher]

Wa-hey, looks like I forgot to respond to anything in a timely fashion. First off, thanks to the dudes who realized I'd misappropriated a ratio that had basically nothing to do with what I wanted it to do. :smalltongue: That's what you get when you've got all sorts of gaming stuff rattling around in your head. I'm sure you know how it goes.

Thanks for all the calculators and such too, those'll be useful if I want to eyeball things. I do have access to Unearthed Arcana, so I'll be taking a peek in there for those rules that were mentioned.

I do like the "carousing" rules, though - I had sort of been toying around with something like that myself, so good to know that's actually a thing.

I appreciate the help and input, guys.

[ericp65]

How can you have levels without experience? The Storyteller needs a gauge for this, and the XP system appears to handle that well enough. Less thinking > more thinking ;)

I always go by the XP/level tables, and never give XP for treasure. The core books already address situational and good role-play XP awards. You basically toss them out by the handful as you see fit and fair. Never saw a problem with characters advancing in level independently of each other.

What I find more important is when to award the XP (and, therefore, when the character advances to a new level). I award XP immediately, on the spot, even in the middle of a play session. Other DMs/GMs I've known prefer to award XP at the end of each play session, and allow characters to advance during down time.

[AuraTwilight]

How can you have levels without experience? The Storyteller needs a gauge for this, and the XP system appears to handle that well enough. Less thinking > more thinking ;)

It's called "Level up when dramatically appropriate."

[Yahzi]

I have a completely different approach.

XP are tangible objects like gold pieces (and are equal to 5 gp). Monsters yield fixed XP rewards based on their CR (and of course the treasure is exchangable for XP or vice versa).

The players decide what to do with their XP: whether to gain levels, or fuel spells, or make magic items, or level up their followers.

Because D&D is a resource management game, and XP is the most important resource, letting the players manage it gives the whole campaign the same tactical nature as each battle. It also makes sense, and explains why wizards make magic items for fighters: in exchange for raw power.

Then you realize that 1st level commoners provide XP when they die natural deaths, and now it explains why high-level lords (even wizards) have huge estates full of commoners that they risk their lives to protect. The whole feudal system just falls out naturally once you give peasants the same value in D&D that they had in RL; that is, as the base of society. Peasants may be dirty and smelly but they grow the food; in D&D, XP is more important than food (since you can use XP to make food).

I know it sounds weird but your players will love it.

[Rhynn]

Then you realize that 1st level commoners provide XP when they die natural deaths, and now it explains why high-level lords (even wizards) have huge estates full of commoners that they risk their lives to protect. The whole feudal system just falls out naturally once you give peasants the same value in D&D that they had in RL; that is, as the base of society. Peasants may be dirty and smelly but they grow the food; in D&D, XP is more important than food (since you can use XP to make food).

Alternatively, be slightly less weird and give XP for GP, including for feudal revenue. (Well, for nothing but 1. adventuring treasure and 2. feudal revenue, really.) Adventurer Conqueror King System does this very well.

[Crasical]

This thread is getting truncated on the main Roleplaying board as 'Experience Points the',. I was kind of hoping for 'Experience Points: The Musical'.

I'd watch the hell out of that.

[ericp65]

It's called "Level up when dramatically appropriate."

I've seen it done that way in other game systems, but never with any version of D&D. "By the book" always felt more natural to me. When in doubt, though, whatever the players are comfortable with is usually best.

[AuraTwilight]

Hey man, you asked how anyone could do it and I responded. It's fairly popular in D&D to do that. :P

[ericp65]

Hey man, you asked how anyone could do it and I responded. It's fairly popular in D&D to do that. :P

Fair enough :) I just haven't had too many different DMs (only a handful, really).