PDA

View Full Version : Wizardry d20?



Philemonite
2013-05-22, 04:22 AM
Has anyone ever tried making a Wizardry conversion?

Original Wizardry was based on D&D, so I don't think it should take too much work to convert Wizardry 8 classes(professions)/races/spells into D&D format.

I would really be interested in playing this, maybe even DMing it if I have enough time.

NichG
2013-05-22, 05:08 AM
I do like this idea, but I've never seen it done. There are a few weird things in Wizardry that are well-suited to a computer game (such as location-specific ACs and hits) but may be kludgy in tabletop.

The skill-raising-by-practice strikes me as very similar to how Call of Cthulhu does skill increases, though if you're going d20 then all the skills will be much bigger chunks when they increase. I suppose just using the d20 skill system would be cleaner anyhow (though the fact that max spell level you can cast of a given element/type is based on your skills and your class level, combined with the surplus of skill points relative to the cost of maxing out one skill, would make that aspect of the game not show up in the adaptation).

Philemonite
2013-05-22, 05:24 AM
I think that some combination of the two systems could be made.
Spells could all be cast spontaneous, and realm skills could add extra casting abilities.
Weapon skills could act as BAB.
Implementing "learning through practice" system is a little tricky to implement into d20.
Maybe just make a combination of two magic systems and convert classes/races/spells/skills to d20?
It wouldn't change mechanics too much, but it would still give it the Wizardry feel.

Edit:This sounds so good, I have to do it.
Anyone have any idea how to convert the magic system? Or any general advice?

NichG
2013-05-22, 02:58 PM
I'd say just convert the magic system straight over. Each realm has a separate spell point pool; the spell point pool is equal to the sum of base casting costs of all spells known for that realm, plus a certain amount per level of a casting class (probably quadratic like the psionic power points table). The cost to cast a spell is 2*Spell level multiplied by the power level chosen to cast it at (both go up to 7). Each spell has a damage formula like 1d6 x Power.

The minimum level at which you can cast a Lv X spell at power level Y is 2*X+(Y-1).

To bring in skills, perhaps each skill point invested in a Realm skill gets you +1 spell point per level in that Realm, and every 2 skill points invested in a Casting skill decreases the cost of casting spells of that type by 1 (so you could eventually treat the low level spells as at-will abilities).

Philemonite
2013-05-22, 03:08 PM
I'd say just convert the magic system straight over. Each realm has a separate spell point pool; the spell point pool is equal to the sum of base casting costs of all spells known for that realm, plus a certain amount per level of a casting class (probably quadratic like the psionic power points table). The cost to cast a spell is 2*Spell level multiplied by the power level chosen to cast it at (both go up to 7). Each spell has a damage formula like 1d6 x Power.

The minimum level at which you can cast a Lv X spell at power level Y is 2*X+(Y-1).

To bring in skills, perhaps each skill point invested in a Realm skill gets you +1 spell point per level in that Realm, and every 2 skill points invested in a Casting skill decreases the cost of casting spells of that type by 1 (so you could eventually treat the low level spells as at-will abilities).

Nice ideas, I actually started something (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284770).
I like the idea of reducing cost with higher casting ability.
I was thinking of making casting spells at higher power level be feat based.
Six spell pools will remain.

NichG
2013-05-22, 03:11 PM
Feats strike me as a tax on casting classes, unless you mean that the higher spell levels basically let you apply metamagics (in which case its still perhaps a tax on casting classes but...)

Philemonite
2013-05-22, 03:18 PM
Feats strike me as a tax on casting classes, unless you mean that the higher spell levels basically let you apply metamagics (in which case its still perhaps a tax on casting classes but...)

Maybe add some bonus metamagic feats to pure casters?
This will make hybrids less powerful casters, since they would have to invest feats to keep up.

NichG
2013-05-22, 04:30 PM
Maybe add some bonus metamagic feats to pure casters?
This will make hybrids less powerful casters, since they would have to invest feats to keep up.

That could work. Alternately, the hybrids could use a delayed or reduced casting progression (like Bard in D&D).

Philemonite
2013-05-23, 03:36 AM
That could work. Alternately, the hybrids could use a delayed or reduced casting progression (like Bard in D&D).

Hybrids already get less skill points to distribute to magic skills. I was thinking 3 points per level. So, a Lord could pump Divinity and Divine and Water realms. Priest will probably have 6, so he can add Spellcraft, and two more realms to the list. That way hybrids still have less magical power than pure casters.

NichG
2013-05-23, 01:15 PM
I'm still not convinced that spell access solely based on skill point expenditure is balanced, especially if there are ways to get extra skill points by e.g. having a high stat.

Having skill categories helps balance it a little bit though, but even in the computer game you could only get a new level of spells every 2 levels as a pure caster, and there was a 5 level offset for hybrids to start getting spells (e.g. even if you pumped realm and casting skills to 100 in the monastery, you wouldn't immediately get Lv7 spells).

Philemonite
2013-05-23, 01:43 PM
I'm still not convinced that spell access solely based on skill point expenditure is balanced, especially if there are ways to get extra skill points by e.g. having a high stat.

Having skill categories helps balance it a little bit though, but even in the computer game you could only get a new level of spells every 2 levels as a pure caster, and there was a 5 level offset for hybrids to start getting spells (e.g. even if you pumped realm and casting skills to 100 in the monastery, you wouldn't immediately get Lv7 spells).

There is a limit on how much ranks you can have in a skill, and it is based on level. Also, pure casters get a bonus to their casting skill, so the hybrids will always be behind.

NichG
2013-05-24, 03:02 AM
There is a limit on how much ranks you can have in a skill, and it is based on level. Also, pure casters get a bonus to their casting skill, so the hybrids will always be behind.

Yeah but the limit is the same for all characters. So compare:

Lv10 Samurai with full ranks in Thaumaturgy and Earth casts earth spells just as well as a Lv10 Mage will full ranks in Thaumaturgy and Earth. Even assuming that a Mage gets 10 ranks per level for Academic skills and a Samurai gets 2 ranks per level, since the skill cap goes up by 1 per level this situation can occur (with the Mage having more skills maxed out of course). If there are other Academic skills that characters are expected to have (but which act more like d20 skills) then its a no-brainer to dump those skills to put points into skills that directly get you higher level spells.

Similarly, a Samurai with 2 Academic skill points per level but an Int mod of +3 can basically max out five skills, whereas the Mage will never really have more than 7 casting related skills to max out. Plus the Samurai will be getting more points in Physical skills and will generally have better fighting abilities and gear access. So in this case, why ever consider being a Mage?

Similarly, take the Bishop who can invest - as they want - into any of the four casting skills. If there isn't some fundamental gain from being a specialist, its always strictly better to be a Bishop and effectively keep the option of gaining a smattering of other casting options open at need, even if you don't immediately invest in them or go too deep into them.

Philemonite
2013-05-24, 04:20 AM
Yeah but the limit is the same for all characters. So compare:

Lv10 Samurai with full ranks in Thaumaturgy and Earth casts earth spells just as well as a Lv10 Mage will full ranks in Thaumaturgy and Earth. Even assuming that a Mage gets 10 ranks per level for Academic skills and a Samurai gets 2 ranks per level, since the skill cap goes up by 1 per level this situation can occur (with the Mage having more skills maxed out of course). If there are other Academic skills that characters are expected to have (but which act more like d20 skills) then its a no-brainer to dump those skills to put points into skills that directly get you higher level spells.

Similarly, a Samurai with 2 Academic skill points per level but an Int mod of +3 can basically max out five skills, whereas the Mage will never really have more than 7 casting related skills to max out. Plus the Samurai will be getting more points in Physical skills and will generally have better fighting abilities and gear access. So in this case, why ever consider being a Mage?

Similarly, take the Bishop who can invest - as they want - into any of the four casting skills. If there isn't some fundamental gain from being a specialist, its always strictly better to be a Bishop and effectively keep the option of gaining a smattering of other casting options open at need, even if you don't immediately invest in them or go too deep into them.

Intelligence will not give extra skill points.
There will be feats that give extra skill point per level.

LV10 Mage will have +10 Thaumaturgy as a class bonus, so he will always be a better caster than a Samurai. He will also have a smaller bonus to his realm skills. LV10 Bishop will have +5 to his Thaumaturgy so Mage will still be better at using wizardry spells.

So, at LV10 Thaumaturgy will be:

Samurai:0-10
Bishop:5-15
Mage:10-20

Also, it's not just about the highest level spell. Mage will have a lot more spell points than a Samurai, since he gets more spell points per level, and probably has higher Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma.

NichG
2013-05-24, 04:31 PM
Intelligence will not give extra skill points.
There will be feats that give extra skill point per level.

LV10 Mage will have +10 Thaumaturgy as a class bonus, so he will always be a better caster than a Samurai. He will also have a smaller bonus to his realm skills. LV10 Bishop will have +5 to his Thaumaturgy so Mage will still be better at using wizardry spells.

So, at LV10 Thaumaturgy will be:

Samurai:0-10
Bishop:5-15
Mage:10-20


Okay, that may effectively implement the level offset then. Based on these numbers I'm assuming you're doing max rank = character level rather than the usual (character level+3) in d20?

So lets see, Lv7 spells probably should require someone to have close to 30 skill ranks; maybe 5 per spell level but starting at 0 for Lv1 spells , so Bishops eventually get them but Mages get them much earlier and Samurai don't get them pre-epic. This should probably exclude temporary bonuses to the skill such as from magic, items, stat mod, etc.



Also, it's not just about the highest level spell. Mage will have a lot more spell points than a Samurai, since he gets more spell points per level, and probably has higher Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma.

Well I don't think you can assume the last, since thats up to the players as far as how they build the character. If I could get higher level spells a few character levels early on a Samurai, I'd easily be willing to dump Strength or Dexterity a bit on a melee character to pull it off, for example.

For spell points that will generally be balanced out by action economy anyhow. If the Samurai is spending half his actions in melee and half his actions casting, he only will ever really 'need' half the spell points that a full caster would need.

Philemonite
2013-05-25, 04:09 AM
Okay, that may effectively implement the level offset then. Based on these numbers I'm assuming you're doing max rank = character level rather than the usual (character level+3) in d20?

So lets see, Lv7 spells probably should require someone to have close to 30 skill ranks; maybe 5 per spell level but starting at 0 for Lv1 spells , so Bishops eventually get them but Mages get them much earlier and Samurai don't get them pre-epic. This should probably exclude temporary bonuses to the skill such as from magic, items, stat mod, etc.


Well I don't think you can assume the last, since thats up to the players as far as how they build the character. If I could get higher level spells a few character levels early on a Samurai, I'd easily be willing to dump Strength or Dexterity a bit on a melee character to pull it off, for example.

For spell points that will generally be balanced out by action economy anyhow. If the Samurai is spending half his actions in melee and half his actions casting, he only will ever really 'need' half the spell points that a full caster would need.

One rank per level, pathfinder style.

Yes, but that would reduce your melee powers, and your Thaumaturgy will still be lower. Hybrid should be balanced, you pick what to focus on.

What do you think about the ability score?

If I use D&D ability score Dexterity will be way too much powerful.
If I use Wizardry ability score I will have to do a full conversion.

NichG
2013-05-25, 02:04 PM
I'd say go ahead and use the Wizardry stats rather than the d20 ones. You could even take most of the mechanics from the game:

Following from a FAQ I randomly found (but unfortunately the author was listed as ???)



Strength 2.5 lbs carry weight, .7 stamina
Melee: .1 to Hit, .1 Attack Rating, 2%/1% damage above/below 50
Ranged: 1%/.5% damage above/below 50

Intelligence ? spell points

Piety .7 stamina, ? spell points

Vitality 1.25 lbs carry weight, .7 stamina, .125 HP/Level

Dexterity Ranged: .1 to Hit, .125 Attack Rating
Melee: .1 to Hit, .083 Attack Rating
Adds extra attacks as you level up, although slower than speed

Speed .04 AC, .2 Initiative
Adds extra attacks and swings as you level up

Senses Melee: .05 to Hit, .05 Attack Rating
Ranged: .05 to Hit, .05 Attack Rating


So keeping in mind that these are a 35-100 sort of stat range, lets say we divide everything by 10 and relate that to the stat mod. So a stat of 100 in Wizardry is equivalent to a stat value of 30 in d20 (+10 modifier). That means that you basically get 1/2 Senses stat mod as a bonus to hit, full Strength stat mod, etc.