Decent archer build (finally)

[Mastrolozozzo]

I suppose some of the more optimizing players are already frowning at the title but I hope to change your mind by the end.
So I enjoy playing optimized characters but I always put roleplaying first, therefor I tendo not to go for builds with more than 3 classes that require to collect stones from different planes just to have that +1 tu AC. Never the less I like my character to at least be on par with the group mage (by which I mean not just stand there while he does it all and some time manage to get shot at).
So here Is my Archer build that has a very decent dps while leaving quite a lot of liberty to what you can do with it.

You go for 10 levels in marksman from the untapped potential rule book and 10 levels in deepwood sniper possibly mixing up the levels as you go.
You then collect fortune feats making sure to reroll attacks. I would go for Victor’s Luck, Lucky Start, Fortuitous Strike and Better Lucky than Good. This way you can reroll 4 dice a day when confirming crits, going for initiative and you treat 1 as 20. You also nead the Final Strike of the Executoner feat from untapped potential. You make sure to have a +5 maiming collision quick composite long bow and you have it. Anything else is up to how you want your character.

Here is how it works.

I was always bugged with the idea that an archer shot thousands of arrows in a round and only deal 1d8+something small. Inexorably killing the opponent only when it looked more like a hedghog than whatever it was before. SO I decided to go for crits. The marksman gives you some interesting psionic powers and lets you take the executoner feat. This feat increments your crit multiplyer by 1 and if you need it can make you automatically confirm a crit (forgoing the +1 to the multiplier). With the deepwood sniper you take the multiplier to +2 meaning a total of 6. The maiming weapon turnes the 6 in d12 (it says that 2 becomes d4, 3 becomes d6 and 4 becomes d8 so I think it is reasonable to imagine that 6 would be d12). The deepwood also makes your bow keen giving you a 19-20/d12 crit. So the problem now is the crit range that is quite low. The solution is attacking as often as possible (therefor the quick bow). The fortune fates permit you to reroll once for the round and the Deepwood archer once a day. So say you go all out on you target you shoot 5 times at level 20 plus you reroll twice (more savage people could also use a belt of battle to do this twice). You have thrown 7 dice. The crit chance is 3/20 (remember 1 is 20 with the fotune feats). The chance of not critting is (17/20) ^7=0,32. So your canche of critting is 68%. The second round you do your 5 attacks and only one reroll so your chance of critting goes down to 63%. So you have a pretty reliable crit in each combat. Now we confirm. There is a ton of ways to confirm. I want go in to this but belive me there are lots of ways. Now you deal your d12 times damage to the unlucky guy. 1d12 is a 6,5 average, so you do 1d8+5 collision +5 enhancement + composite (lets say +3) times 6,5. On average that is 113 hp of damage. Enough to oneshot the caster. You can take this damage up quite easily witha big bow, archer bracelets or more strength.

The way I would play it is you are the sniper. You hide and take out the dangerous target while te rest of the group engages with tanks and so on.

So here come the questions

1) Did I get enything wrong?
2) Are there anyway to get more crit range? (its obviously the best buff for this build)
3) Are there any good ways to improve this build I haven't seen?

[thethird]

I don't have access to the Marksman, but what would happen if the enemy is immune to crit? As is it seems like a big flaw in your plan.

Also lately archer's are given some love here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284283)

[Mastrolozozzo]

There are a some ways to crit targets thar are immune.
There are spells and weapon cristals for both undead and constructs.
And if you really nead to take down a plant I dont advise shooting it witha bow :smallbiggrin: .

Thanks for the heads up about the thread. It's very jucy

[sir_argenon]

needs more peerless archer.

[Piggy Knowles]

Deepwood Sniper is definitely a nice way to up the damage potential of an archer, but I agree - if 3.0 sources are on the table, look into Peerless Archer as well.

Have you ever seen ksbsnowowl's original archer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=653.0)? This thread includes the original and several variants. It goes in a very similar direction to what you mention. It also combines bless weapon and hunter's mercy to snipe with one powerful shot that automatically hits and crits.

The iconic sniper archer (which was 3.0, and therefore is using the old Order of the Bow Initiate) was Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Peerless Archer 3/Order of the Bow Initiate 5. I'll just quote the numbers directly from the thread:



20th level:
+5 Mighty Comp (+4) Shocking Burst, Icy Burst Longbow (18-20/ x5 crit)

Damage: 5d8(primary arrow) +25(+5 magical bow) +25(+5 magic arrow) +100(power shot) +10(Weap. Spec.) +20 (strength) +5 (PBS) +5(Bracers) + 100(Craven) +4d6(sneak attack) +1d6(shocking) +4d10(burst) +1d6(icy) +4d10(burst) +3d8(2nd, 3rd, &4th arrows) +15(2nd, 3rd, &4th magical bow) +15(2nd, 3rd, &4th magic arrow) +60(2nd, 3rd, &4th power shot) +6(2nd, 3rd, &4th Weap. Spec.) +12(2nd, 3rd, &4th strength) +3d6(2nd, 3rd, &4th shocking) +3d6(2nd, 3rd, &4th icy)
Total: 8d8 + 12d6 + 8d10 + 398
Avg Dmg: 520
Max Dmg: 614
Min Dmg: 426


(It's worth reading the thread, which also gives numbers for other circumstances, such as having better or worse arrow enchantments, Bane arrows, being more than 30' away, etc.)

The build has also been updated accordingly with 3.5 sources, including one that still uses Peerless Archer and Deepwood Sniper, and several that are entirely 3.5. But the original was one of the first awesome archer builds I'd ever seen, back on the 339 boards, and always inspired me to fiddle around with archers myself.

EDIT: While I was walking the dog, I was thinking about how I would build the one-shot sniper, using some of these tricks. Here are my thoughts:


Bless weapon and hunter's mercy is definitely a good place to start.
Sneak attack optimization is nice (although precision damage is always risky), but as variable damage, it doesn't multiply on a crit. Bring in Maiming Strike from Exemplars of Evil, where you can sacrifice +2d6 of sneak for a point of Charisma damage. As static damage, that WILL multiply on a crit. So let's say we end up with a fairly modest +10d6 sneak attack and we can get an arrow up to x4 on a crit (a two level dip in DWS gets us there). That means that our auto-critting arrow now deals 20 points of Charisma damage. Pretty good - that will take out a good chunk of level appropriate foes - but we can do better. Really, the gold standard would be to hit 32 points of guaranteed Charisma damage, which is the highest non-epic Charisma of any monster in the SRD (great wyrm gold dragon).
Distance penalties to Spot far outstrip most Spot bonuses, so we'll need some way of viewing enemies from far, far away. Malphas comes to mind, either through a binder dip or two feats.
Sniper's shot will be a must.


So, just mucking around, right off the bat we can go...

Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1

1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot, Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
3- Precise Shot
6- Far Shot
9- Persistent Spell
12- DMM (Persistent Spell)
15- WF (composite longbow)
18- Improved Precise Shot

Starts with +6d6 sneak attack. Persistent hunter's eye and a karma prayer bead ups that to +14d6. A kaorti resin arrow with Deepwood Sniper's projectile improved critical will have a x5 crit modifier.

No room for binding Malphas, so we'll have to rely on clairvoyance or similar to shoot from afar. That's OK. Watch your target, cast bless weapon, then hunter's mercy. Buff up the attack roll as well if necessary. Next round, swift action sniper's shot and attack. Sacrifice all +14d6 sneak die into 7 points of Charisma damage. An automatic critical with a x5 modifier turns that into 35 points of Cha damage. Congratulations - you just took down a great wyrm gold dragon in one shot. (Er, assuming you caught it unawares and it didn't have, say, wind wall up. Boy does that spell screw over archers.)

[Mastrolozozzo]

I like the power shot of peerless archer, it would do great things for my build, but in our game we use 3.0 only after very thorough checks, and this guy does stuff with concealment that is very 3.0. I could probably adapt it. Deppwood on the other hand has no rules that conflict with 3.5. Also you may notice I didn't take the power critical feat of 3.0 because it has a 3.5 equivalent that I don't particularly need. On the other hand I had completely missed hunter's mercy. Great spell. Changes everything. If I can automatically crit by casting a spell when hidden I don't really need the crit range and fortune tactics.
The other great thing I had missed is craven feat. The +130 damage on crit is great. I need to take sneak attack. So either I adapt peerless archer or I go for something with a bit of sneak.

To do a bit of math the damage of the single crit on this build is now 243 on average. No need for fortune and speed. Leaving only two feats taken: craven and final strike of the executoner. The bow also has a +3 enhancement open to creativity.

Thanks for the great help guys!

[Piggy Knowles]

Power Shot is really what makes Peerless Archer. There is almost no better source of scaling bonus damage, unfortunately. That said, if you can get your hands on an energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), you could skip it without too much pain.

[Mastrolozozzo]

Deepwood Sniper is definitely a nice way to up the damage potential of an archer, but I agree - if 3.0 sources are on the table, look into Peerless Archer as well.

Have you ever seen ksbsnowowl's original archer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=653.0)? This thread includes the original and several variants. It goes in a very similar direction to what you mention. It also combines bless weapon and hunter's mercy to snipe with one powerful shot that automatically hits and crits.

The iconic sniper archer (which was 3.0, and therefore is using the old Order of the Bow Initiate) was Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Peerless Archer 3/Order of the Bow Initiate 5. I'll just quote the numbers directly from the thread:



(It's worth reading the thread, which also gives numbers for other circumstances, such as having better or worse arrow enchantments, Bane arrows, being more than 30' away, etc.)

The build has also been updated accordingly with 3.5 sources, including one that still uses Peerless Archer and Deepwood Sniper, and several that are entirely 3.5. But the original was one of the first awesome archer builds I'd ever seen, back on the 339 boards, and always inspired me to fiddle around with archers myself.

EDIT: While I was walking the dog, I was thinking about how I would build the one-shot sniper, using some of these tricks. Here are my thoughts:


Bless weapon and hunter's mercy is definitely a good place to start.
Sneak attack optimization is nice (although precision damage is always risky), but as variable damage, it doesn't multiply on a crit. Bring in Maiming Strike from Exemplars of Evil, where you can sacrifice +2d6 of sneak for a point of Charisma damage. As static damage, that WILL multiply on a crit. So let's say we end up with a fairly modest +10d6 sneak attack and we can get an arrow up to x4 on a crit (a two level dip in DWS gets us there). That means that our auto-critting arrow now deals 20 points of Charisma damage. Pretty good - that will take out a good chunk of level appropriate foes - but we can do better. Really, the gold standard would be to hit 32 points of guaranteed Charisma damage, which is the highest non-epic Charisma of any monster in the SRD (great wyrm gold dragon).
Distance penalties to Spot far outstrip most Spot bonuses, so we'll need some way of viewing enemies from far, far away. Malphas comes to mind, either through a binder dip or two feats.
Sniper's shot will be a must.


So, just mucking around, right off the bat we can go...

Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Deepwood Sniper 2/Swordsage 2/Assassin 1

1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot, Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
3- Precise Shot
6- Far Shot
9- Persistent Spell
12- DMM (Persistent Spell)
15- WF (composite longbow)
18- Improved Precise Shot

Starts with +6d6 sneak attack. Persistent hunter's eye and a karma prayer bead ups that to +14d6. A kaorti resin arrow with Deepwood Sniper's projectile improved critical will have a x5 crit modifier.

No room for binding Malphas, so we'll have to rely on clairvoyance or similar to shoot from afar. That's OK. Watch your target, cast bless weapon, then hunter's mercy. Buff up the attack roll as well if necessary. Next round, swift action sniper's shot and attack. Sacrifice all +14d6 sneak die into 7 points of Charisma damage. An automatic critical with a x5 modifier turns that into 35 points of Cha damage. Congratulations - you just took down a great wyrm gold dragon in one shot. (Er, assuming you caught it unawares and it didn't have, say, wind wall up. Boy does that spell screw over archers.)


Well done walking the dog!
I like your build a lot!
I wouldn't worry to much about wind walls, they have a tendency not to be there when you soundlessly sneak up to unaware innocent great wyrm gold dragons.

[Fouredged Sword]

The best part of this build is that it is hilariously non-lethal. You shoot people in the SOUL!!!! :smallcool::smallcool::smallcool:

[cerin616]

I think you might have pulled it off...

[Xervous]

Well done walking the dog!
I like your build a lot!
I wouldn't worry to much about wind walls, they have a tendency not to be there when you soundlessly sneak up to unaware innocent great wyrm gold dragons.

Typically, you don't sneak up on such creatures without investing a good bit of gold and a feat or two in it, unless your DM is just plain lazy or is actually planning for it to happen.

Also, surge of fortune is nice to have when you are intent on dishing out auto crits, a free natural 20 makes everything simpler.

[Piggy Knowles]

Typically, you don't sneak up on such creatures without investing a good bit of gold and a feat or two in it, unless your DM is just plain lazy or is actually planning for it to happen.

Also, surge of fortune is nice to have when you are intent on dishing out auto crits, a free natural 20 makes everything simpler.

Agreed. A well played dragon should have contingencies up the wazoo and the spells to know what's coming days ahead of time. Vecna-blooded or similar is probably a wise idea. At least the long range nature of the build means you can stay well outside of the range of blindsense, though, and Darkstalker can always be picked up via the floating feat.

Hunter's mercy does obviate the need for surge of fortune, but both work.

[cerin616]

...Watch your target, cast ]bless weapon[/B], then hunter's mercy. Buff up the attack roll as well if necessary. Next round...

Can also access the blackguard spell list and gain Corrupt weapon.

Bless weapon only autoconfirms against evil, corrupt does this to good. So with both blessings you can auto crit anything that isnt neutral.

[Piggy Knowles]

Can also access the blackguard spell list and gain Corrupt weapon.

Bless weapon only autoconfirms against evil, corrupt does this to good. So with both blessings you can auto crit anything that isnt neutral.

Good point. I probably should have specified, especially since the example I was using was a gold dragon, which is inherently good.

[cerin616]

Deadeye Shot on pg 78 of PHB2 also lets you delay an attack to time it with an ally hitting them. the enemy is denied dex to AC and thus gets sneak attacked. For those situations where you don't catch the target off guard.

Since you cant bless or corrupt a bow, but you can do arrows, you can carry 2 quivers, one of blessed and one of corrupt arrows. In a full attack you can fire 2 blessed and 2 corrupted arrows.
Auto knock out anything evil or good.

now if we can just find a way to autoconfirm against neutral targets...

[Fouredged Sword]

A casting of surge of fortune should auto confirm any crit. You treat the confirmation roll as a natural 20.

[Piggy Knowles]

Curse of arrow attraction also works but allows a save. If there's any way to add favored enemies, exacting shot would work. Might be worth a ranger dip for Arcane Hunter.

[Xervous]

The one problem I see with Curse of Arrow Attraction is that it has piddly range compared to your BOOM HEADSHOT -> 2KM KILLCAM setup and also introduces a step of interaction with the target between SPOT and KILL. Keeping the system simple lessens the potential for error, both from yourself and the enemy's preparations.

The problem I see with exacting shot is that you possibly can't use it with Kaorti Resin arrows. Depends on how the Kaorti resin is ruled, whether its critical enhancement is a "Property related to critical hits" or not.

[Piggy Knowles]

The one problem I see with Curse of Arrow Attraction is that it has piddly range compared to your BOOM HEADSHOT -> 2KM KILLCAM setup and also introduces a step of interaction with the target between SPOT and KILL. Keeping the system simple lessens the potential for error, both from yourself and the enemy's preparations.

The problem I see with exacting shot is that you possibly can't use it with Kaorti Resin arrows. Depends on how the Kaorti resin is ruled, whether its critical enhancement is a "Property related to critical hits" or not.

Honestly, the bigger problem with the curse (IMO) is that, if you're relying on an enemy failing a save, why bother firing an arrow? You may as well just hit them with a medium range save or die and save yourself a step. I was mostly just listing it for the sake of completeness.

Surge of fortune is almost certainly the best option that has come up for neutral enemies.

[Feint's End]

So I enjoy playing optimized characters but I always put roleplaying first, therefor I tendo not to go for builds with more than 3 classes that require to collect stones from different planes just to have that +1 tu AC.

Please don't take it offensive but has anybody said Stormwind Fallacy (in weak form though) yet?

I built characters with great flavour and roleplaying potential using 5 classes+ and I really don't think that hampered the roleplaying in the campaign we were playing at that time. Ofc it often depends if your group (or more specifically you) view classes as "lifetime devotion to a cause" like it is the case in mmos (in the ones you can't change class in) or rather as possibilities of advancement and all classes together you "dip" into are your class (if you haven't realized I am the second one).

I don't mean to offend you but I kinda felt offended by the wording of that sentence. If you just don't like multiclassing that much or like to keep it simple when it comes to classes you could just say this.

[Mastrolozozzo]

Please don't take it offensive but has anybody said Stormwind Fallacy (in weak form though) yet?

I built characters with great flavour and roleplaying potential using 5 classes+ and I really don't think that hampered the roleplaying in the campaign we were playing at that time. Ofc it often depends if your group (or more specifically you) view classes as "lifetime devotion to a cause" like it is the case in mmos (in the ones you can't change class in) or rather as possibilities of advancement and all classes together you "dip" into are your class (if you haven't realized I am the second one).

I don't mean to offend you but I kinda felt offended by the wording of that sentence. If you just don't like multiclassing that much or like to keep it simple when it comes to classes you could just say this.

I'm sorry if I offended someone with that comment. Not my intention.
It is true you can role play very well with 20 different classes, what I mean is that unless what you are looking for is creating a "class" that isn't in the books and you multiclass to obtain the right flavor, most pc's will regard themselves as having a profession such as warrior or fighter. Most of them will be part of a group of some kind and therefor have a prestige class. It is also possible that you are roleplaying a very eclectic character that wants to hone a lot of different skills, but in most cases we dip and multiclass just to fit in cool abilities and meet prerequisites. I often don't like what that does to my character. If i'm roleplaying this invisible sniper I don't really want to dip in to cleric or wizard in order to use the wands they can and cast spells. If I do it must come from the roleplay and not from the build necessities.

On the other hand if you organize it well with the DM and do the things well your cleric/sniper can have an incredible roleplaying flavor. Some kind of religious assasin that says a prayer every time before it kills its target.

So in general you are right, multiclassing does not pose a problem to roleplaying, but as a rule of thumb I like to keep it simple.

[MirddinEmris]

I'm sorry if I offended someone with that comment. Not my intention.
It is true you can role play very well with 20 different classes, what I mean is that unless what you are looking for is creating a "class" that isn't in the books and you multiclass to obtain the right flavor, most pc's will regard themselves as having a profession such as warrior or fighter. Most of them will be part of a group of some kind and therefor have a prestige class. It is also possible that you are roleplaying a very eclectic character that wants to hone a lot of different skills, but in most cases we dip and multiclass just to fit in cool abilities and meet prerequisites. I often don't like what that does to my character. If i'm roleplaying this invisible sniper I don't really want to dip in to cleric or wizard in order to use the wands they can and cast spells. If I do it must come from the roleplay and not from the build necessities.

On the other hand if you organize it well with the DM and do the things well your cleric/sniper can have an incredible roleplaying flavor. Some kind of religious assasin that says a prayer every time before it kills its target.

So in general you are right, multiclassing does not pose a problem to roleplaying, but as a rule of thumb I like to keep it simple.

What the Feint's End was trying to say is that fluff != crunch, which means, that game mechanics does not necessarily should affect you play in any way. Having certain prestige classes doesn't mean belonging to specific group for me, for example. My character could wield a Greatsword while calling it anything from Zwehander or Grossmesser to No-Dachi or Dadao. I could play character with only Fighter class, but calling him a Paladin and have a very zealous personality. Wizard is an alchemist, whose spells i fluff as mixtures, potions, oils etc. Why should i restrict myself by fluff written by another person(s) who've got completely different ideas about what and how should be played?

I always say, that I don't play classes or alignments, I play characters and personalities.

You have the idea that you should stick to the description written in the playbook and that the classes that you've got are actually you character's professions and it's perfectly fine by me, after all it's you characters and your game. But your presumptions that everyone else should play this way and those who don't are munchkins and powerplayers were the thing that offended other posters. I though that i should clarify this moment)