[PF] Sorcerer Item Problems.

[Krazzman]

Hello again fellow playgrounders,

I have a "little" problem.

In our Pathfinder game I have a Problem with Spell Resistance (or other Caster Level checks) and with what Items I should craft myself.

To explain my problem further:
I am playing a level 10 Sage Sorcerer with (thanks to a +2 Headband) 21 Intelligence 14 con and 14 dex.

Most of the time I buff Haste and sometimes bears Strength. But I can't seem to effectively effect monsters with Spell Resistance as my only two spells that ignore SR are Acid Arrow(which is mostly resisted) or Stone call (2nd level spell dealing 2d6 dmg...). My single 5th Level spell is Passwall because we thought this would be better to infiltrate a city (but we can't reach that city at the moment.

Feats:
Toughness, Still Spell, Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Empower Spell and Extend spell (not taken in this order).
Traits:
Focused Mind and Resilient (due to an houserule initiative isn't that important)

I am thinking about spending my next feat on the feats to better penetrate spell resistance but I am unsure.

"DMG" spells I have atm:
Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Stone call, acid arrow, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Enervation.


Magic Items:
Headband of Intellect, Cloak of Reistance 1, Bracers of Armor 2, Pearl of Power 1, Ring of Sustenance.

So my question:
What would you craft for yourself (items can be advanced) and what feat would you take in my position next level.

[Keneth]

Take Piercing Spell if you're having a lot of trouble beating SR.

Also, you do realize sorcerers can't use pearls of power? You need a runestone of power to get the same effect. Bracers of armor are also a waste of gold at this level, it's much cheaper to get an armor with no ACP and ASF (I'm hoping they were something you found).

At this level you should probably find yourself a robe of arcane heritage if you want to advance your bloodline powers. Consider also a page of spell knowledge (or two), if you find that you're lacking spells. Other than that, improve your cloak of resistance and headband of alluring charisma (a +4 if it's not too expensive). A belt of physical might (Dex and Con) might also be a good idea.

Snowball is a good candidate for single target, no SR spells. With a lesser metamagic rod (elemental spell) and Intensify Spell (this feat is better than Empower until late levels), it should be a decent damage dealing option.

And passwall seems kind of a waste for a sorcerer, doesn't it? It's a fairly situational spell, which is what scrolls are for...

[Krazzman]

Take Piercing Spell if you're having a lot of trouble beating SR.
I am going to ask for it, since it is a Core + APG only game. Rest is on a ask for it basis.


Also, you do realize sorcerers can't use pearls of power? You need a runestone of power to get the same effect. Bracers of armor are also a waste of gold at this level, it's much cheaper to get an armor with no ACP and ASF (I'm hoping they were something you found).

Ok the Pearl of Power thing is new for me... where can I find them? The Bracers were sort of a way of me to get a bit of armor + special abilities but... since I need a CL of [too much] for fortification this plan sort of backfired.


At this level you should probably find yourself a robe of arcane heritage if you want to advance your bloodline powers. Consider also a page of spell knowledge (or two), if you find that you're lacking spells. Other than that, improve your cloak of resistance and headband of alluring charisma (a +4 if it's not too expensive). A belt of physical might (Dex and Con) might also be a good idea.

The problem here being low wealth. I have basically 2k Gold left at this moment but we haven't split the spoils yet. But I was thinking about ditching the bracers for an Upgrade to my Headband of Vast Intellect.


Snowball is a good candidate for single target, no SR spells. With a lesser metamagic rod (elemental spell) and Intensify Spell (this feat is better than Empower until late levels), it should be a decent damage dealing option.

And passwall seems kind of a waste for a sorcerer, doesn't it? It's a fairly situational spell, which is what scrolls are for...
I was going to ask if I could switch my Empower into Intensify but yeah. Passwall seemed like a good idea (I would have taken geysyr instead) since we should be infiltrating a certain city.

Also where can I find Snowball?

Thanks so far.

EDIT:
Ok. I looked up the robes. I now have a problem figuring it out. With the Sage bloodline I get a bonus spell known, I can cast, from the Wiz/Sor spell list. If I don this robe can I choose a new spell every time I take them off/on?

[Keneth]

Ok the Pearl of Power thing is new for me... where can I find them?

Runestones of Power are in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. They are twice as expensive as pearls, but it's not like there's a choice in the matter since pearls only work for casters that prepare spells.


I was thinking about ditching the bracers for an Upgrade to my Headband of Vast Intellect.

Ditch the bracers. If you really need armor, get a haramaki or an armored kilt, and have it enchanted. Otherwise use mage armor (if you don't have it, get a wand or, even better, a page of spell knowledge).


Also where can I find Snowball?

It's a recent addition from People of the North.


If I don this robe can I choose a new spell every time I take them off/on?

There's nothing wrong with that by RAW, but you should really discuss it with your GM before you start abusing it. For the sake of consistency, it's generally best if the spell you pick the first time, is the spell you get every time, robe or no robe.

You can find pretty much everything concerning Pathfinder on d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). It also lists the book sources at the bottom of each page (unless it's from CRB).

[Corlindale]

I recommend an upgrade to the Cloak of Resistance. Saves are very important at high levels, where failing one might easily kill you (or worse). As a sorceror you have poor saves to start with, so anything you can do to improve them will be helpful.

[Karoht]

Ioun Stone to boost caster level. SR checks go off caster level. Same with dispel checks.

Pick up the spells Aqueous Orb and the Pit spells. Roll bad guys into pits of acid. Works on flyers if you line it up just right. Control Winds is also somewhat useful for grounding fliers if need be.

SR 30 is a thing. To beat that you need a caster level of 10-11 to have approximately a small chance to beat it. With the feats Spell Penetration and Greater (yes, they stack) that adds 4, giving you already better odds of beating it. Ioun Stone to increase your caster level by 1, your check to beat that SR 30 is looking much better, your caster level of 10-11 becomes effectively 15-16, which puts you closer to a 50/50 chance.

BUT WAIT!
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wrath
Get a cheap wand of Wrath, the UMD check would be trivial. Or, spend the money, get it made by a 9th level caster (not that huge an expense really) and get yet another +3 bonus to your caster level for purposes of beating spell resistance.
There is a mass version of it to help all of your party VS that target, but probably not worth it. MIGHT be cheaper or very close in cost to a 9th level Wrath wand.

Either way, 9th level casting of Wrath gets you +3 CL, so your 10-11 becomes 18-19
Now that SR 30 is getting within striking distance.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Take Dazing Spell as your next feat and apply it to Stone Call. No SR save or be dazed in a 40 ft radius...

[Krazzman]

Thanks Karoth. I am going to ask if I can switch Empower for Intensify and will take Spell Penetration on my next level. The Ioun Stone could be craftable by me... except when it has the same stupid limitation like Fortification, lesser.

I don't know the Wrath spell and well... I don't know if I can take it.


Take Dazing Spell as your next feat and apply it to Stone Call. No SR save or be dazed in a 40 ft radius...

The Problem is most things I should use this on: immune or our meatshields are in the way. And I don't want to target them.

[Keneth]

Spell Penetration is kinda bad for a sorcerer (at least without Spell Perfection), unless a considerably large amount of enemies have SR. Also, at your level, you shouldn't encounter any monsters with SR over 24 (11+CR, CR 13 would be an epic encounter if you're level 10). So worst case scenario, Piercing Spell alone already brings you to 60% chance to get through the SR, at the cost of a single feat and a +1 spell level increase. You should probably save Spell Penetration for level 15+ when enemies with SR become increasingly more common. YMMV, of course.

[Krazzman]

Spell Penetration is kinda bad for a sorcerer (at least without Spell Perfection), unless a considerably large amount of enemies have SR. Also, at your level, you shouldn't encounter any monsters with SR over 24 (11+CR, CR 13 would be an epic encounter if you're level 10). So worst case scenario, Piercing Spell alone already brings you to 60% chance to get through the SR, at the cost of a single feat and a +1 spell level increase. You should probably save Spell Penetration for level 15+ when enemies with SR become increasingly more common. YMMV, of course.

I don't know about that "general rule of sr" but I think the dragon we battled with had SR 25 but he was an unbeatable challenge. The Other thing was SR 23(?) on a Demon or Devil (the turtle-esque one). Any Idea what feat I should take on 11 then?

[Karoht]

Thanks Karoth.
I don't know the Wrath spell and well... I don't know if I can take it.
Wrath is an Inquisitor spell. Hence it is Divine. But, making the UMD check from a wand to use it should be pretty easy. If your UMD skill is low, just top it up next level up.
As for it's source, you are playing Core +APG right? Wrath is from APG.
If the 9th level caster wand is too expensive, you should be able to afford a scroll or two. Heck, even just at first level, that +1 is really useful.

[Krazzman]

Wrath is an Inquisitor spell. Hence it is Divine. But, making the UMD check from a wand to use it should be pretty easy. If your UMD skill is low, just top it up next level up.
As for it's source, you are playing Core +APG right? Wrath is from APG.
If the 9th level caster wand is too expensive, you should be able to afford a scroll or two. Heck, even just at first level, that +1 is really useful.

Even If I could put all my 7(2+5) ranks into it I would still have a 7 in UMD... so it's not going to happen anytime soon since I can't afford to let Spellcraft drop low.

[Karoht]

Even If I could put all my 7(2+5) ranks into it I would still have a 7 in UMD... so it's not going to happen anytime soon since I can't afford to let Spellcraft drop low.I will first give you a (non serious) finger wag for not having a decent UMD. For sorcerers, that skill can really fill gaps and be incredibly useful.
*finger wag*

Solution-bring it up over a few levels.

[Slipperychicken]

Could you pick up (or get someone to craft for you) some Pages of Spell Knowledge to give you good no-SR spells?

[Keneth]

I don't know about that "general rule of sr"

SR is almost always 11+CR, meaning a caster with no bonuses has a 45% chance to overcome the SR of a monster of the appropriate CR. And unless your GM is mean (like mine), the highest encounter level at any given time should be APL+3, which brings it down to 30% for boss fights. There are few exceptions, and it's usually lower rather than higher.


Any Idea what feat I should take on 11 then?

Like I said, if you think SR is gonna continue being an issue, I'd recommend Piercing Spell rather than Spell Penetration. A +5 bonus on that one occasional spell you need, is better than a +2 bonus on every spell. Of course the two stack, so if you can afford the feat investment, you can always take both at higher levels, as well as Greater Spell Penetration if need be.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The Problem is most things I should use this on: immune or our meatshields are in the way. And I don't want to target them.

What is immune to Daze? Seriously, I'm curious. It seems to me like daze immunity is super uncommon, that's what's nice about it. If I'm unaware of a bunch of monsters that are, I'd be interested to hear of them.

[Krazzman]

What is immune to Daze? Seriously, I'm curious. It seems to me like daze immunity is super uncommon, that's what's nice about it. If I'm unaware of a bunch of monsters that are, I'd be interested to hear of them.

I'll answer from latest to oldest response.

The Dragon we fought that first spawned my doubt about my ability to break SR. He was rocking a SR of 25. Then the demon/devil turtle thingie with sr 23 that was constantly in melee with our Barbarian and Paladin. Since I have no way to go around targeting them with stonecall I would daze them too and that would be BAD. I could throw a normal Stone Call at our Barbarian (due to her DR of 5) and she wouldn't really care.

@Keneth
I am going to ask the group about Piercing spell and the other stuff you mentioned. Pearl of Power and Bracers of Armor trading in for other stuff.
Items on my bucket list are now the Ioun Stone, the Robes of Heritage and my cloak of resistance.

@Slippery:
I can craft them myself in theory. Maybe with help of the cleric and wizard. Do I use them up once I learned the spell or is it just I know this spell as long as I have the page?

@Karoth:
I am going to detract a few points from "profession (Cook)" and raise UMD now but still being an Int-focused caster I don't expect this to be high.

Thanks so far.

[The Random NPC]

@Slippery:
I can craft them myself in theory. Maybe with help of the cleric and wizard. Do I use them up once I learned the spell or is it just I know this spell as long as I have the page?


As long as you have the page, you treat the spell as one you know. In essence, you become a Wizard, able to learn all the spells, but better, able to cast them all spontaneously.

[Keneth]

The funny thing is, you can craft a page of spell knowledge for a spell you don't know in order to know that spell. :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

Since I have no way to go around targeting them with stonecall I would daze them too and that would be BAD. I could throw a normal Stone Call at our Barbarian (due to her DR of 5) and she wouldn't really care.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stone-call
Stone Call doesn't daze. Straight up. I agree it wasn't a great spell to use in that situation though.

[StreamOfTheSky]

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stone-call
Stone Call doesn't daze. Straight up. I agree it wasn't a great spell to use in that situation though.

I was talking about adding the Dazing Spell feat to it to make it daze.

In any case, Selective Spell is a cheap metamagic effect (+1) and thus also makes for a cheap 3000 gp lesser metamagic rod, if hitting allies is a concern. A pretty good investment in general, Selective also makes pyrotechnics much more viable.

[Slipperychicken]

The funny thing is, you can craft a page of spell knowledge for a spell you don't know in order to know that spell. :smallbiggrin:

Just get someone who can use the spell (whether as a spell or SLA) to participate in the crafting. They supply the spell, you supply the crafting. Yes, it does work this way, check out the crafting rules if you don't believe me.

And yes, as long as it's in your possession, you know the spell. Perhaps if there were enough cost-reduction feats, you could get some serious shenanigans out of it.

[Keneth]

Just get someone who can use the spell (whether as a spell or SLA) to participate in the crafting.

Actually, the requirement is explicitly that the creator knows the spell. But the funny part is that the pages are wondrous items, not scrolls, so you can skip the requirement at +5 DC. If Krazz maxed out his Spellcraft (as every spellcaster should), he's got at least a +18 modifier, whereas the DC for the pages with the added +5 is only 27, so he can just take 10 and get the ability to cast any spell he can imagine out of thin air.

[Krazzman]

Actually, the requirement is explicitly that the creator knows the spell. But the funny part is that the pages are wondrous items, not scrolls, so you can skip the requirement at +5 DC. If Krazz maxed out his Spellcraft (as every spellcaster should), he's got at least a +18 modifier, whereas the DC for the pages with the added +5 is only 27, so he can just take 10 and get the ability to cast any spell he can imagine out of thin air.

Bummer is I can't take ten on item crafting checks. (Houserule)

10 Ranks + 3 classskill + 2 (don't know of the top of my head, some bloodline thing or trait and + 5 for Intellect.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, the requirement is explicitly that the creator knows the spell.

It works as I said. Here is the text (full text here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation)).


Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

[Gnaeus]

I would pick up Summon Monster V for your next spell. It is good in a variety of situations (something a sorcerer wants) as well as not vulnerable to SR. You don't need another damage spell.

[Krazzman]

I would pick up Summon Monster V for your next spell. It is good in a variety of situations (something a sorcerer wants) as well as not vulnerable to SR. You don't need another damage spell.

The only reason I don't have any summon spells yet was... I hate bookkeeping (figures why the char in question is a sorcerer...).

[Krazzman]

Update after yesterdays session:

apparently I had UMD maxed out but forgot about it.
DM said he will look over the items and the spell I posted. Gave my Pearl of Power 1 to the Wizard and we got quite some loot.

A Chain of Beguiling (getting us around 45k Gold), 7k in gems and some other stuff.

Our next encounter is against a Drachilisk or Basilache (mix between Basilisk and dragon). Our Cleric and Wizard both have Break Enchantment in their repertoire to do something against the petrification effect but we might take our time, sell loot and slay this thing a bit later after being better prepared.

I have to wait for a response about the items though.

[ericgrau]

There are many more excellent SR no spells you can use. Wall of force, solid fog, black tentacles, greater invisibility and resilient sphere are some of the best ones. Having so many damage spells is redundant anyway. Try some more variety. With such a big debilitating mistake maybe you could beg the DM for changes. So much redundancy is like having 1/3rd as many spells.

To overcome SR directly there's piercing spell. You could also make a metamagic rod of piercing for about 15k IIRC. There's also greater spell penetration. Dunno if it's true but I hear SR is a bigger problem in PF, so you may want to try spells like the above instead.

Selective spell doesn't apply to pyrotechnics nor stone call, because they aren't instantaneous. It's good for fireball. Besides bookkeeping, summons are pretty lousy in general. It's hard to wait until round 2 for a CR 6 dude and have him be useful, no matter how clever you get with his abilities. If you summon such a weakling he better be filling a major unexpected hole that happens 5% of the time, not acting as your main strategy 95% of the time.

[Krazzman]

There are many more excellent SR no spells you can use. Wall of force, solid fog, black tentacles, greater invisibility and resilient sphere are some of the best ones. Having so many damage spells is redundant anyway. Try some more variety. With such a big debilitating mistake maybe you could beg the DM for changes. So much redundancy is like having 1/3rd as many spells.


This is an interesting point.

Our Group Consists of a Half-Elf barbarian, a Dwarven Paladin (without spells), an Aasimar cleric (merciful healer) and an abjuration(?) wizard.
My "job" is basically slight buffing(haste) then damagespells.

What spells would you, knowing my current spell list, advice me in switching out and taking next? Next level I get overland flight for free. (Can I switch out Bloodline spells for something different?)

[Karoht]

Paragon Surge, if you can qualify for it. :smallwink:

Conjuration school has some of the best spells out there, almost all of them are in fact SR: No
You have access to third level spells? Super.
Go to www.pathfindersrd.com
scroll down, click spells by class, click sorcerer/wizard, and all the schools are broken down for you.
I'm serious when I say this, read EVERY conjuration spell up to your maximum spell level.

Grease and Glitterdust are amazingly useful.
If you want some sustained damage while throwing out other spells (such as buffs or battlefield control), look into Snapdragon Fireworks (sadly has an SR component) and Flame Shuriken (SR: No). Maybe combo it with Twilight Knife (sadly, also SR: Yes)
Your action economy then looks something like this:
Twilight Knife: Attacks whatever you shoot first
Swift Action-Shuriken (or a Quickened Spell)
Move Action-Firework (or move)
Standard Action-Cast Spell (or move)
Aqueous Orb is SR: No and takes a move action to direct it (standard to cast it, naturally). Aqueous Orb is Hold Person on crack. Sleetstorm is SR: No and actively screws over anyone without Acrobatics, along with other tricks. If you are worried about hitting your allies, cast the Sleetstorm behind the enemies, then Aqueous Orb them INTO the Sleetstorm.
The Pit spells (Create Pit, Spiked Pit, Hungering Pit, Acid Pit) are all SR: No but have no effect on anything that flies. Still, if something doesn't fly, it can take damage AND it is out of the fight for a while. Drop a pit into a Sleetstorm. Aqueous Orb something into the Sleetstorm, and if possible, roll them into the Pit.

And of course, summons.
If you don't know what to do with summons or what all they can potentially do, here is a handy dandy list.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit?pli=1
At 3rd level, Dretches are useful with Stinking Cloud and Fear. They throw the Cloud they then hold their action to Fear anything that emerges from the Cloud, hopefully fearing them right back into the cloud.
At 4th Level you get Mephits which can do all kinds of things (too many to list, see guide)
At 5th Level you get some interesting choices. Babau's have Dispel Magic at Will. So you summon a few, and have them do nothing but hold their action to counterspell another caster or casters.
Just to give you an idea.

Best of luck.

[ericgrau]

This is an interesting point.

Our Group Consists of a Half-Elf barbarian, a Dwarven Paladin (without spells), an Aasimar cleric (merciful healer) and an abjuration(?) wizard.
My "job" is basically slight buffing(haste) then damagespells.

What spells would you, knowing my current spell list, advice me in switching out and taking next? Next level I get overland flight for free. (Can I switch out Bloodline spells for something different?)

Burning hands, acid arrow, stone call and passwall can be easily ditched. Lightning bolt and scorching ray could go or stay. Selective spell will work well with fireball and lightning bolt, though not if you keep hitting SR yes enemies. Empower spell + precise shot go well with scorching ray, enervation and false life. I know about greater false life, but if you already have empowered false life it's just as good and saves you a spell known. Or to save a feat at the expense of spells you can quicken true strike instead of point blank shot + precise shot. Or save your rays for only when there is a clear shot and cast something else.

I might get a scroll or two of stone call for the rare times when you can hit large numbers of foes without hitting allies.

From best to least good on my list: wall of force, solid fog, greater invisibility, resilient sphere ~= black tentacles. All of those are great though. Sleet storm is decent too. If you can manage at least 3 of those for the 4th I'd switch over to versatile utility like dimension door. And overland flight, which you're already getting anyway. For 3rd level and lower I'd get hour/levels to cast in the morning like greater magic weapon, (empowered) false life, mage armor and unseen servant. They may seem little, but actually like quicken they bust action economy into tiny pieces by not eating a combat round. If you do a lot of dungeons you can get 10 min/level buffs too like stoneskin, communal stoneskin (UC), protection from energy, magic circle against evil and resist energy. IMO go for communal stoneskin and dimension door first, and then the hour/levels. Again only after 3+ spells on the main list. Don't forget to load up on 3,000+ gp in diamond dust and don't be afraid to pop communal stoneskin the moment you enter every place. It's so nutso it's worth it to constantly piss away gold into it.

If you really think you'll get to use passwall a lot, I'd still prioritize it after your main spells, as one of your utilities. Or substitute the more versatile dimension door or, later, disintegrate. Those are more multi-purpose so you're not stuck with a spell you barely ever use.

[Krazzman]

Burning hands, acid arrow, stone call and passwall can be easily ditched. Lightning bolt and scorching ray could go or stay.
After some speaking with the DM and actually playing again I have the opportunity to switch one of these spells for others. We got a level up and as such I got:
Overland Flight
1x new 2nd Level
1x new 3rd Level
2x new 4th Level
1x new 5th Level

Maybe getting another 5th Level spell by switching Passwall for something else.


From best to least good on my list: wall of force, solid fog, greater invisibility, resilient sphere ~= black tentacles. All of those are great though. Sleet storm is decent too. If you can manage at least 3 of those for the 4th I'd switch over to versatile utility like dimension door. And overland flight, which you're already getting anyway. For 3rd level and lower I'd get hour/levels to cast in the morning like greater magic weapon, (empowered) false life, mage armor and unseen servant.

I don't know about Resilient Sphere and Black Tentacles. But I have 2 weeks of thinking about that since next meeting is 22.6.

SInce I already have Overlandflight (which is only for mee as it seems...) and Dimension Door, I am exited for 6th Level spells... always wanted to have Disintegrate.

Equipment update:
Ditched the pearl of power, Upgraded my Cloak of Resistance to +3, Got Robes of Arcane Heritage. Thinking about Upgrading my Headband of Vast Intellect or building myself a belt of +dex +con.
Also got a Page of Spell Knowledge: Snowball.
DM allowed it but after seeing what I did with it (Intensify Snowball the Dracolisk) we decided to look a bit over it and maybe adjust it a little.