Assassin's stance count as sneak attack for qualifying for Prestige classes?

[Marcus Amakar]

Quick question: if a character has the stance 'assassin's stance', do they count as having sneak attack for the purpose of qualifying for Prestige classes?

[Juntao112]

Yes they do

[cerin616]

Yes they do

Depends on if it states "as a class feature" or not.

if you just need sneak attack damage it does, if you need the class feature "sneak attack" it does not. unless your dm allows it of course.

[Averis Vol]

Wait, why do they qualify? Assassins stance is only temporary, and were you to change out of it you wouldn't qualify anymore unless you took a class with sneak attack.

I don't mean to debate the ruling, I'm merely curious as to why this works for prc's but permananciable spells don't.

[BowStreetRunner]

Wait, why do they qualify? Assassins stance is only temporary, and were you to change out of it you wouldn't qualify anymore unless you took a class with sneak attack.

I don't mean to debate the ruling, I'm merely curious as to why this works for prc's but permananciable spells don't.

RAW, if you use a stance to qualify for a prestige class, then you would no longer qualify for the prestige class when you don't have the stance up. The same would happen if you use an item to qualify, then lose the item. Bye-bye Prestige Class!

[Shining Wrath]

Pure DM ruling.
If the PrC merely requires that you be capable of Sneak Attack, that might be different than having the Sneak Attack feature.

Post examples and we'll rules lawyer them to death for you.

[Deaxsa]

RAW, if you use a stance to qualify for a prestige class, then you would no longer qualify for the prestige class when you don't have the stance up. The same would happen if you use an item to qualify, then lose the item. Bye-bye Prestige Class!

i am under the impression that the opposite is the case for feats. am i correct?

[maximus25]

Wait, why do they qualify? Assassins stance is only temporary, and were you to change out of it you wouldn't qualify anymore unless you took a class with sneak attack.

I don't mean to debate the ruling, I'm merely curious as to why this works for prc's but permananciable spells don't.

Most of the time prestige classes that require sneak attack grant sneak attack.

So by qualifying for it the class keeps you qualified.

[cerin616]

Same applies for feats. By RAW if you don't have the prerequisite anymore, you lose the benefit.

It all really depends on wording. If you just need to be able to sneak attack or sneak attack for x damage, then by raw it works. If you need to have 2d6 sneak attack, it works, but you lose all benefits when not in stance. If you need it as a class feature assassin stance can't get you in at all.(example is Craven, although I hear that is up to debate)


Most of the time prestige classes that require sneak attack grant sneak attack.

So by qualifying for it the class keeps you qualified.

Many also "increase sneak attack damage" which does not.

[Carth]

There is no rule that says or implies permanency spells, magic items, stances, and so forth don't count toward pre reqs. It's entirely up to the DM to shoot down anything they view as too temporary, I'm aware of no rules text on the subject. Though as others have pointed out, if you take off the magic item, end the stance, and so forth, you lose the benefit of the feat (or whatever) that requires the 2d6, and you also lose the benefit of anything for which that feat was a pre requisite.

[Xervous]

It depends on what rules you are using to determine a lot of these things. For instance, I've often seen it brought up that the rules (in complete warrior and perhaps another book) only say you have to maintain your qualifications for the prestige classes you have, if you aren't using those books, then those rules may not apply since they don't appear anywhere else.

There's also the PHB II approach to seeing whether you qualify for a prestige that is probably the strongest check I've seen, but its still weak. It checks if you qualify by looking at your character as if you had one less level in that prestige class. So a character who has Fighter 5 // full sneak attack prestige 4 would qualify if the PrC required 2d6 sneak attack, but a Fighter 5 // PrC 3 would not because that third level of the PrC is what is currently putting the character at 2d6 SA.

As for the "Sneak attack vs. Sneak Attack Class Feature" thing, again we will need specific examples. Be warned, some topics are a little hazy in their debates (Craven, with its requirement of Sneak Attack CLASS FEATURE and what actually qualifies as a Sneak Attack Class Feature)

[BowStreetRunner]

Complete Warrior page 16 has rules for meeting class requirements. It states that if a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, they lose class features and special abilities from that class but retain Hit Dice, BAB and save bonuses from the class. (No mention of skill ranks but I would assume those are kept.)

[Darrin]

RAW, if you use a stance to qualify for a prestige class, then you would no longer qualify for the prestige class when you don't have the stance up. The same would happen if you use an item to qualify, then lose the item. Bye-bye Prestige Class!

Most stances can be kept up indefinitely 24/7. There are a few that can be dismissed or end if you do something (notably the Stone Dragon stances), but Assassin's Stance isn't one of them.

As far as whether or not you have sneak attack as a class feature... Swordsages gain stances as a class feature. If one of those class features = Assassin's Stance... how exactly is that not "sneak attack as a class feature"? (Many DMs disagree with this line of reasoning. Debating it here is kinda pointless, but will probably ensue anyway.)

[Xervous]

The only wording of sneak attack class feature I've seen is "Sneak Attack Class Feature", not anything like "Sneak attack from a class feature". Whenever something is referenced like this, its usually quite different from instances where someone is gaining the benefits of said feature.

[cerin616]

As for the "Sneak attack vs. Sneak Attack Class Feature" thing, again we will need specific examples. Be warned, some topics are a little hazy in their debates (Craven, with its requirement of Sneak Attack CLASS FEATURE and what actually qualifies as a Sneak Attack Class Feature)

That's actually the exact debate I was talking about earlier. Its a huge question as to what this constitutes.

I like to look at it as craven vs maiming strike. maiming strike just requres 2d6 of sneak attack damage rather than sneak attack "as a class feature"


In support of "losing a prerequisite does not lose bonuses" I want to point out that losing your alignement in the case of monk or barbarian does not make you lose your class features and instead just means you cannot progress in the class anymore.

[BowStreetRunner]

Most stances can be kept up indefinitely 24/7. There are a few that can be dismissed or end if you do something (notably the Stone Dragon stances), but Assassin's Stance isn't one of them.

The real problem arises when you decide to switch from Assassin's Stance to another stance...

[GeekGirl]

In support of "losing a prerequisite does not lose bonuses" I want to point out that losing your alignement in the case of monk or barbarian does not make you lose your class features and instead just means you cannot progress in the class anymore.

That not always the case, Paladin's lose everything by changing alignments. Same with feat, loose the prerequisite looses the feat.

[Talderas]

Most stances can be kept up indefinitely 24/7. There are a few that can be dismissed or end if you do something (notably the Stone Dragon stances), but Assassin's Stance isn't one of them.

As far as whether or not you have sneak attack as a class feature... Swordsages gain stances as a class feature. If one of those class features = Assassin's Stance... how exactly is that not "sneak attack as a class feature"? (Many DMs disagree with this line of reasoning. Debating it here is kinda pointless, but will probably ensue anyway.)

A class feature is any of the abilities presented in the class feature section of a class or prestige class. A swordsage has the following class features.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Maneuvers
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known
AC Bonus
Discipline Focus
Quick to Act
Sense Magic
Evasion
Improved Evasion
Dual Boost

None of these class features is sneak attack. You may be able to acquire sneak attack damage through a class feature but it does not make sneak attack a class feature.

[Telonius]

Most stances can be kept up indefinitely 24/7. There are a few that can be dismissed or end if you do something (notably the Stone Dragon stances), but Assassin's Stance isn't one of them.

As far as whether or not you have sneak attack as a class feature... Swordsages gain stances as a class feature. If one of those class features = Assassin's Stance... how exactly is that not "sneak attack as a class feature"? (Many DMs disagree with this line of reasoning. Debating it here is kinda pointless, but will probably ensue anyway.)

For the same reason that Cleric doesn't qualify as having BAB equal to his class level, even after he gets access to Persisted Divine Power. Granting the ability to get something, is not the same as granting something.

[Vaz]

The only time there is mention of "not qualifying through not meeting requirements", I point you to Dragon Disciple and Ur-Priest, both of whom disqualify themselves, thereby qualifying themselves, thereby disqualifying themselves...

The only mentions IIRC of losing Prestige Class benefits if you no longer meet them if in Complete Arcane, and Complete Warrior. It's not in the DMG, QED, it's not primary source, therefore not applicable to PrC's not in either of those books.

Feats, however, are mentioned as such within the PHB, and so are applicable to that.

The wording on how you stipulate entry depends on whether it's determined as a Class Feature. It might fall under "Special", or something, but Assassins Stance is a Stance that adds +2d6 SA damage.

Arguably, however, an Initiator who can choose a Stance as a Class Feature (not through a feat) CAN qualify as such.

TL:DR In short, it's down to your DM.

[Carth]

For the same reason that Cleric doesn't qualify as having BAB equal to his class level, even after he gets access to Persisted Divine Power. Granting the ability to get something, is not the same as granting something.

Could you cite a rule that definitively makes this clear? I've seen things like this bandied about, and while in practice it's not a a horribly unreasonable thing to do as a DM, I still think it's a house rule.

[cerin616]

...Dragon Disciple and Ur-Priest...


Good examples. I think that losing abilities for losing prereqs is listed in the class, such as paladin losing when alignment is broken vs a monk not losing abilities for alignment breaking (and instead losing access to monk progression)



...whether it's determined as a Class Feature. It might fall under "Special", or something, but Assassins Stance is a Stance that adds +2d6 SA damage...


Which is why i feel some feats are worded as "as class feature" vs "has xd6 sneak attack". Granted the publishers are different, and so might screw stuff up, but i feel that since there is a difference in wording, then the class feature part has to be pertinent. I don't count replicating an ability as having that ability as a class feature. (see chameleon's "you cant use anything from this class to meet prerequisites")



TL:DR In short, it's down to your DM.


And thats what it really comes down to. Maybe to your dm it makes sense. If i were asked "I have assassins stance, can i take craven" i might say "yea sure", the only reason i argue otherwise is because I don't think it is allowed by RAW.

[Averis Vol]

RAW, if you use a stance to qualify for a prestige class, then you would no longer qualify for the prestige class when you don't have the stance up. The same would happen if you use an item to qualify, then lose the item. Bye-bye Prestige Class!

Well I understand that part, I was always just under the assumption that if it wasn't actually a class/level/feat/what have you benefit that it didn't qualify. thank you for confirming my suspicion.

[Marcus Amakar]

If it helps, the exact wording is:

"Special: Sneak Attack +1d6"

It's for the Shadowbane Stalker class, which gets Sneak Attack +1d6 at 3rd level

[Xervous]

Also, there is arguably a huge difference between "Sneak Attack Class Feature" and "Sneak Attack As A Class Feature" as was recently debated on craven.

I am of the school of thought that believes the only thing that counts for "SA-CF" is when a class literally has "Sneak Attack" appearing as a class feature, not when a class feature they possess can grant them sneak attack (such as factotum) because that is not the SA-CF.


Of course, it is my opinion that factotums and people who can get sneak attack should qualify for stuff like craven, because precision damage needs all the help it can get. I rule this for my games in spite of my stance on the RAW.

[BowStreetRunner]

Some classes have rules that cause you to lose access to class features if you no longer meet the requirements of the class (Barbarian or Bard who becomes lawful, Cleric who violates code of conduct, etc.). These situations are governed under the rules stated in the class description.

Prestige classes may also have such requirements, but there is also a general rule applying to all prestige classes listed on page 16 of Complete Warrior under 'Meeting Class Requirements'. This situation is different from losing a Bard's abilities or something along those lines.

Whether the rule from CW16 is printed anywhere else in 3rd Edition I do not know. If you do not use CW then the only rules I have seen are those in the DMG/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm) that state: "characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class." It goes on to state "If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

So essentially, if you remove CW and any other resource that might contain the CW16 rule, it would appear you only have to qualify at the time you take the first level. If you include CW16, then you can later lose class features.