The real way to break the Symbiote Template and the best LA +1 for a wizard

[Immabozo]

half-green, half red, half-gold, half-white, half black, half blue, half-brass, half-bronze, half-gold, half-silver Great Wyrm Prismatic dragon (ELH), Paragon (ELH), Half Troll (Dragon type qualifies, changed to giant type, Fiend Folio, “Return to Nature” spell cast x7), Greenbound (Lost Empires of Faerun, makes a giant into a plant) Symbiote (Savage Species)

Int 79 (Great Wyrm Prismatic dragon (64) Paragon (+15) Half Troll (-2) Greenbound Symbiote)
Wis 80 (Half-blue Great Wyrm Prismatic dragon (65) Paragon (+15) Half Troll Greenbound Symbiote)
Cha 81 (Half-blue Great Wyrm Prismatic dragon (64) Paragon (+15) Half Troll (-2) Greenbound (+4) Symbiote)

Fort: +43 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)
Ref: +43 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)
Will: +41 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)

Feats: Cleave, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Snatch, Sunder, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (tail Slap), Endurance and two bonus feats.

Epic Feats: Spell Knowledge (x4), Improved Spell Capacity (9th) x2

Racial Skill bonuses: Balance +33, Bluff +29, Concentration +58, Diplomacy +62, Disable Device +29, Escape Artist +58, Heal +29, hide +13, Intimidate +4, Intuit Direction +29, jump +4, Knowledge (arcane) +58, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +58, Knowledge (geography) +58, Knowledge (history), +58, Knowledge (local) +58, Knowledge (nature) +58, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +58, Knowledge (the planes) +58, Knowledge (religion) +58, Listen +58, move silently +29, Open Lock +29, Scry +58, Search +58, Spellcraft +58, Spot +58, Tumble +29

Special Qualities: DR 60/+15, SR 86, Fear DC 89, scent, Deflecting Force (charisma bonus to AC), immune to acid, electricity, fire, cold, light, blindness, sleep, paralysis, Fast Healing 20, Dark Vision 60 Feet, Low Light Vision.

SLA: At will, Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern, 3/day Prismatic sphere, prismatic wall, sunbeam, sunburst (caster level 53, DC 57 + spell level - math may be wrong on this one -), 3/day Greater Dispelling, Haste and See Invisibility Caster Level 15, At Will, Entangle, Pass Without A Trace, Speak With Plants, 1/day wall of thorns Caster Level 93 (dont remember how I calculated a CL that high) DC 57 + spell level

All for a LA +1. The symbiote (guest) has many +LA templates (about +35 LA, in addition to paragon, - LA, and a 72 HD epic level dragon) but the LA and RHD of the guest do not affect the LA or RHD of the host, per RAW.

So, a wizard, level 1 (ECL 2 for the +1 LA)
spells per day 3/10/9/9
DC 44 + spell level,
HP 8
AC 49 = 10 +35 (Deflecting Force) + 4 dex
(assuming 32 point buy)
str 8
dex 18
con 18
int 79
wis 80
cha 81

Fort: +43 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)
Ref: +43 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)
Will: +41 (base, instead of class levels, until they exceed this number)

Special Qualities: DR 60/+15, SR 86, Fear Aura (as a dragon's) DC 89, scent, Deflecting Force (charisma bonus to AC), immune to acid, electricity, fire, cold, light, blindness, sleep, paralysis, Fast Healing 20, Dark Vision 60 Feet, Low Light Vision.

SLA: At will, Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern, 3/day Prismatic sphere, prismatic wall, sunbeam, sunburst (caster level 53, DC 57 + spell level - math may be wrong on this one -), 3/day Greater Dispelling, Haste and See Invisibility Caster Level 15, At Will, Entangle, Pass Without A Trace, Speak With Plants, 1/day wall of thorns Caster Level 93 (dont remember how I calculated a CL that high) DC 57 + spell level

Feats: Cleave, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Snatch, Sunder, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (tail Slap), Endurance and two bonus feats.

Epic Feats: Spell Knowledge (x4), Improved Spell Capacity (9th) x2

Racial Skill bonuses: Balance +33, Bluff +29, Concentration +58, Diplomacy +62, Disable Device +29, Escape Artist +58, Heal +29, hide +13, Intimidate +4, Intuit Direction +29, jump +4, Knowledge (arcane) +58, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +58, Knowledge (geography) +58, Knowledge (history), +58, Knowledge (local) +58, Knowledge (nature) +58, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +58, Knowledge (the planes) +58, Knowledge (religion) +58, Listen +58, move silently +29, Open Lock +29, Scry +58, Search +58, Spellcraft +58, Spot +58, Tumble +29

I have zero experience playing or optimizing wizards, but this will make your wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric or any caster, an incredible caster, a better tank than your tank will ever be and a better skill monkey than any other skill monkey.

I am working on a different, but similar template and build for a melee character.

[Jbr208]

Quick question: How do you plan to get the prismatic dragon to a size where it can be the guest?

In the paragraph under "Creating a Symbiotic Creature" there is a point made that the "guest" must be two size categories small than the "host."

[Deaxsa]

commence hole poking. for starters, i'm pretty sure that the DR overlaps, it does not stack.


Quick question: How do you plan to get the prismatic dragon to a size where it can be the guest?

In the paragraph under "Creating a Symbiotic Creature" there is a point made that the "guest" must be two size categories small than the "host."

magic, duh. :smalltongue:
also, he just ruined your entire plan, OP.

edit: also, how high is your DM?

[Immabozo]

commence hole poking. for starters, i'm pretty sure that the DR overlaps, it does not stack.

the dragon has DR 60/+15. It is from one source.


magic, duh. :smalltongue:
also, he just ruined your entire plan, OP.

edit: also, how high is your DM?


Quick question: How do you plan to get the prismatic dragon to a size where it can be the guest?

In the paragraph under "Creating a Symbiotic Creature" there is a point made that the "guest" must be two size categories small than the "host."

Half troll changes it to Giant type, return to nature brings it down a size category per casting, cast it 7x and the dragon is the appropriate size, greenbound makes it a plant, qualifying for symbiote.

And since when does TO have to match common sense? No DM will ever approve this. No DM would approve pun-pun either.

[Jbr208]

Half troll changes it to Giant type, return to nature brings it down a size category per casting, cast it 7x and the dragon is the appropriate size, greenbound makes it a plant, qualifying for symbiote.

Ah, that would explain it. After reading your response I searched up the spell to see if there's anything amiss, it really is just a strange spell. It's the only one I have seen which changes a living creature's size permanently without otherwise changing the creature. Well done coming up with that.




Am I the only one who reads "Return to Nature" and immediately associates the title with Harvest Moon: Back to Nature for the PSX?

[Immabozo]

Ah, that would explain it. After reading your response I searched up the spell to see if there's anything amiss, it really is just a strange spell. It's the only one I have seen which changes a living creature's size permanently without otherwise changing the creature. Well done coming up with that.


Am I the only one who reads "Return to Nature" and immediately associates the title with Harvest Moon: Back to Nature for the PSX?

For the record, I hate white text!!! But I have never heard of the "Harvest Moon: Back to Nature" game. is it any good?

But thank you. Yes, it is an odd spell. But what TO doesn't use odd things and rules and exploit them?

I'm much better with melee optimization and am working on a melee TO that should rock some socks

[Jbr208]

For the record, I hate white text!!! But I have never heard of the "Harvest Moon: Back to Nature" game. is it any good?

But thank you. Yes, it is an odd spell. But what TO doesn't use odd things and rules and exploit them?

I'm much better with melee optimization and am working on a melee TO that should rock some socks

I'll keep that in mind in the future. I enjoy the Harvest Moon series, it's all about farming, mining, and socializing with townsfolk. Back to Nature was the release for the Playstation which, in my opinion, is likely the best in the series.

I'll be interested to see your melee optimization, I tend to play a lot of fighter-type characters.

[Immabozo]

I'll keep that in mind in the future. I enjoy the Harvest Moon series, it's all about farming, mining, and socializing with townsfolk. Back to Nature was the release for the Playstation which, in my opinion, is likely the best in the series.

I'll be interested to see your melee optimization, I tend to play a lot of fighter-type characters.

So far, his str is 210, dex 54, con 137, AC 190. Although I am considering taking off one of the two optimized templates, cause the LA might be better suited to class levels, but it is a really nice optimized template, so I might not.

Sounds like a cool game. I'm sorry, you just caught me on an aggravating afternoon. But I must ask, what is the reason for white text? I always miss it until I try to quote the post!

EDIT: He has a fly speed of just over 1500, seems fun, haha

[tyckspoon]

Interesting application of the template-stacked Effigy concept. I think this does actually work- the only thing I can find right now that would disable it is if you use Savage Species' Type Pyramid rules, which prevent Half-Troll from turning it into a Giant and thus prevent shrinking via Return to Nature. Normally I don't think this would be much of a problem.. but since you're invoking a Savage Species template to make your creation work, it seems fair to point out a Savage Species rule that breaks it >.>

Practical note: The DR should be /epic in accordance with the general changes to DR in 3.5.

[Immabozo]

Interesting application of the template-stacked Effigy concept. I think this does actually work- the only thing I can find right now that would disable it is if you use Savage Species' Type Pyramid rules, which prevent Half-Troll from turning it into a Giant and thus prevent shrinking via Return to Nature. Normally I don't think this would be much of a problem.. but since you're invoking a Savage Species template to make your creation work, it seems fair to point out a Savage Species rule that breaks it >.>

Practical note: The DR should be /epic in accordance with the general changes to DR in 3.5.

Well, the RAW that over rides your point is the "dragon" type qualifies for a template that makes you a giant. I thought about the type pyramid, but its not concrete. Incarnate Construct (for example) turns you into a Giant, or a humanoid (bottom of the pyramid) depending on size. I think the specification of that the template is eligible for Dragons and turns them into giants, overrides the type pyramid.

But thank you. One reason I like this forumn is that the playgrounders poking holes in my builds has made me think it through more thoroughly and made me a better optimiser.

Regarding the DR, the dragon specifically calls out DR 60/+15 in it's entry. The symbiote template gives all them extraordinary qualities, which includes the DR

[Phelix-Mu]

Regarding the DR, the dragon specifically calls out DR 60/+15 in it's entry. The symbiote template gives all them extraordinary qualities, which includes the DR

If it's the prismatic dragon you are referring to, or indeed anything from the Epic Level Handbook, then an update to 3.5 was issued that made those monsters' DR compatible with the 3.5 system. Pretty sure it's an official override of that which was published in the 3.0 material.

Don't have the books on hand at the moment to verify it, but almost all of the DR stuff was cleaned up to fit the new system when the newer version of 3e was released (or sometime thereafter:smallwink:).

[Xervous]

Query: Why did you select Prismatic Dragon over Force Dragon? You are giving up Su invisibility, better SLAs, and what may be one of the only immunities to Force effects for a +2 to some ability scores and a prismatic breath weapon and prismatic immunities.

Anything that requires a save will either be a 95% success or a 5% (the rare optimized casters who have NI DCs on their spells). So your biggest threat of death is still from HP damage. Ubercharger is easily dealt with since he can't cast, but folks like the Mailman or Stutter would capitalize very quickly on your lack of force immunity.

[killem2]

Wait just a second.

Have I been reading this template wrong?

You mean, this template, erases all the other Level Adjustments from all other template creatures?

So, if you wanted to be a Sainted Anthropamorphic Bat // Half– Vampire Half Ogre symboite Creature, I would not be a creature with a total Level Adjustment of +7 (2 saint, 2 half vampire, 2 Half Ogre, 1 Symbiote Creature)

but rather, I would just be, +1 level adjustment? Is that right?

Please tell me I have been reading it wrong all this time. While I don't plan on anything as crazy as what's been listed in this thread, I do have a great character concept in mind.

[Immabozo]

If it's the prismatic dragon you are referring to, or indeed anything from the Epic Level Handbook, then an update to 3.5 was issued that made those monsters' DR compatible with the 3.5 system. Pretty sure it's an official override of that which was published in the 3.0 material.

Don't have the books on hand at the moment to verify it, but almost all of the DR stuff was cleaned up to fit the new system when the newer version of 3e was released (or sometime thereafter:smallwink:).

Do you have a link to this ruling, or a book I can read it from?


Query: Why did you select Prismatic Dragon over Force Dragon? You are giving up Su invisibility, better SLAs, and what may be one of the only immunities to Force effects for a +2 to some ability scores and a prismatic breath weapon and prismatic immunities.

Anything that requires a save will either be a 95% success or a 5% (the rare optimized casters who have NI DCs on their spells). So your biggest threat of death is still from HP damage. Ubercharger is easily dealt with since he can't cast, but folks like the Mailman or Stutter would capitalize very quickly on your lack of force immunity.

I was thinking about the force dragon, but I was having issue with the picture in my head, too big of one for me. But you bring up a good point.

EDIT: no breath weapon. Symbiote doesn't give breath weapon... or does it? Its Tauric that doesn't give breath weapon... Ill have to check that one

EDIT #2: look at that! You are right!

[darbythegambler]

Anyone know where I can find the Return to Nature spell?

[TuggyNE]

Do you have a link to this ruling, or a book I can read it from?

The SRD has the updated version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon). DR 25/epic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Savage Species page 142-143, under Multiple Templates, you find The Type Pyramid:

Usually, the last template applied determines a creature’s type. However, it is possible that some template imposes a creature type that overrides any following templates. Types higher on the pyramid override lower types, even if the lower type is applied afterward. You can apply the half-dragon template to an earth elemental, for instance, and it remains an elemental.

The Pyramid from Base to Top
...
Fey, Giant: These two types occupy the level above magical beast and monstrous humanoid. While they override animal, humanoid, magical beast, and monstrous humanoids, other types override theirs.
Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger): These two types occupy the level above fey and giant.
...
You cannot go from Dragon to Giant, per RAW from the very book you're seeking to abuse, templates cannot make that happen.

[tyckspoon]

Well, the RAW that over rides your point is the "dragon" type qualifies for a template that makes you a giant. I thought about the type pyramid, but its not concrete. Incarnate Construct (for example) turns you into a Giant, or a humanoid (bottom of the pyramid) depending on size. I think the specification of that the template is eligible for Dragons and turns them into giants, overrides the type pyramid.


I have to disagree, as this concept renders the idea of the type pyramid completely pointless - I don't believe you'll find anything (even within the bounds of Savage Species) that tells you "this applies unless it's in contradiction to the Type Pyramid".. and the rules for the type pyramid actually have a stated example of a creature retaining its Type in preference to the one a template would otherwise give it- a Half-Dragon Earth Elemental would still be an Elemental.

[Immabozo]

The SRD has the updated version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon). DR 25/epic.

So it is, thanks!


I have to disagree, as this concept renders the idea of the type pyramid completely pointless - I don't believe you'll find anything (even within the bounds of Savage Species) that tells you "this applies unless it's in contradiction to the Type Pyramid".. and the rules for the type pyramid actually have a stated example of a creature retaining its Type in preference to the one a template would otherwise give it- a Half-Dragon Earth Elemental would still be an Elemental.

Then I've gotta wonder why the templates that change type are eligible to those who cant have their type change to that.

But no matter, I can still make it work, I'll just have to do a little for finagling. I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve, just wont have so many special qualities.

EDIT: which might not make it good for casters, but that's ok

[tyckspoon]

So it is, thanks!

Then I've gotta wonder why the templates that change type are eligible to those who cant have their type change to that.

EDIT: which might not make it good for casters, but that's ok

I would understand it as not invalidating the entire template.. it just doesn't change type. Any new special abilities, stat adjustments, etc would apply as usual. The only real major difference it should make is to type-changing chains like these that are trying to attain a specific end type.. which does make it tricky, because a lot of the more generally applicable templates shoot you straight up toward the top of the pyramid (it's really easy to become a Dragon or an Outsider when you don't care about LA.)

[Tar Palantir]

I would understand it as not invalidating the entire template.. it just doesn't change type. Any new special abilities, stat adjustments, etc would apply as usual. The only real major difference it should make is to type-changing chains like these that are trying to attain a specific end type.. which does make it tricky, because a lot of the more generally applicable templates shoot you straight up toward the top of the pyramid (it's really easy to become a Dragon or an Outsider when you don't care about LA.)

But then you have the problem of Incarnate Construct. It can only be applied to constructs, and changes them to a type lower on the pyramid. If the pyramid is a hard and fast rule, there would be no reason to include the type change in the template at all, since it would never be applied. It's even in the same book, so you can't use WotC's habit of not keeping track of their own material to explain it.

[Chronos]

Question: What sort of thing is Greenbound? Is it a spell, inherited template, or acquired template? Because if it's an inherited template, you're not going to be able to apply it after the Return to Nature castings.

[Deox]

Question: What sort of thing is Greenbound? Is it a spell, inherited template, or acquired template? Because if it's an inherited template, you're not going to be able to apply it after the Return to Nature castings.

Greenbound (Lost Empires of Faerun) is an acquired template that can be applied to any: Fey, Giant, Humanoid (Monsterous also), or Vermin.

[killem2]

All for a LA +1. The symbiote (guest) has many +LA templates (about +35 LA, in addition to paragon, - LA, and a 72 HD epic level dragon) but the LA and RHD of the guest do not affect the LA or RHD of the host, per RAW.

I'm going to have to challenge the Per Raw on this. Raw only mentions to use the Hit Dice, but it never speaks of what happens with the level adjustments.

I'm not challenging it because I am exactly in disagreement since I can see where the interpretation of this can come from. But to state it R.A.W is iffy to me.

I actually want to make a character based on the template (nothing as crazy as presented here) but my DM will question this, as the normal process is, to figure up LA is to just add all the level adjustments listed for any given template.

[Immabozo]

But then you have the problem of Incarnate Construct. It can only be applied to constructs, and changes them to a type lower on the pyramid. If the pyramid is a hard and fast rule, there would be no reason to include the type change in the template at all, since it would never be applied. It's even in the same book, so you can't use WotC's habit of not keeping track of their own material to explain it.

Well the top of the pyramid, which construct is one of the three, states that methods of changing type are very rare, if not impossible. IC specifically calls out only constructs and changes them to lower on the type pyramid, and very specifically has that purpose. IC is kinda like an exception that proves the rule.


I'm going to have to challenge the Per Raw on this. Raw only mentions to use the Hit Dice, but it never speaks of what happens with the level adjustments.

I'm not challenging it because I am exactly in disagreement since I can see where the interpretation of this can come from. But to state it R.A.W is iffy to me.

I actually want to make a character based on the template (nothing as crazy as presented here) but my DM will question this, as the normal process is, to figure up LA is to just add all the level adjustments listed for any given template.

Valid point, and one I have thought about. RAW says


Hit Dice: A symbiotic creature uses the host’s Hit Dice and Constitution modifier.

and on LA


Level Adjustment: +1.

Technically, you do not have those templates, a completely separate entity has them. They modify his/her statistics, then the +1 LA Symbiotic template grants you bonuses based on the guests (now modified) statistics, feats, skills, SLAs, attacks, etc.

I swear I recall reading somewhere about DM adjudication of LA based on the guest, but I cannot recall where I read that and never-the-less, DM judgements are not RAW

[Immabozo]

Regarding Incarnate Construct, just after the type pyramid, there is notes on specific templates.


Incarnate Construct: This is a very specific template intended to turn some constructs, such as stone golems, into humanoids or giants. The primary benefit of this template is that it provides a way for golems to become player characters.

[kardar233]

I believe Curmudgeon has stated his opinion that the Type Pyramid is no longer valid.

[Immabozo]

I believe Curmudgeon has stated his opinion that the Type Pyramid is no longer valid.

This would make me very happy, but why would it no longer be valid?

[kardar233]

Something something Savage Species something 3.0 something?

I dunno. Activate the Curmudgeon-signal!

Errr.... Non-TWF Rogues! Factotum Cunning Surge non-stacking!

[Chronos]

Then again, the Symbiote template is from the same book as the type pyramid. So if the latter is no longer valid without DM intervention, then neither is the former.

[Talderas]

Then again, the Symbiote template is from the same book as the type pyramid. So if the latter is no longer valid without DM intervention, then neither is the former.

Not necessarily. 3.0 material is considered valid for 3.5 unless it has been reprinted. Most likely what Curmudgeon will say makes it invalid is due to the rules presented in 3.5 regarding creature types/subtypes that makes the premise of the pyramid invalid.

[Immabozo]

Not necessarily. 3.0 material is considered valid for 3.5 unless it has been reprinted. Most likely what Curmudgeon will say makes it invalid is due to the rules presented in 3.5 regarding creature types/subtypes that makes the premise of the pyramid invalid.

Is SS 3.0 material?

[Deox]

Yes, Savage Species is 3.0.

IIRC, the printing of SS was in January or February, while the 3.5 update was released around June or July (PHB, MM, DMG).

[Immabozo]

Yes, Savage Species is 3.0.

IIRC, the printing of SS was in January or February, while the 3.5 update was released around June or July (PHB, MM, DMG).

Then I will post two versions of my updated build, one upholding type pyramid, one not.