View Full Version : The limits of happy endings
jere7my
2013-05-22, 06:46 PM
What does it mean to get a "happy ending," as the Oracle foretold for Elan?
That's a rhetorical question—there isn't any one answer. The definition varies from person to person; it has to. If you asked a five-year-old what would count as a happy ending to a story they were in the middle of, you'd get a very different answer than their parent would give. The five-year-old might be unwilling to accept the pangs and compromises of a grown-up's happy ending—might insist that it can't be "happy" unless Superman gets to go home to Krypton, or Yoda comes back to life, or the sidekick's unrequited and impossible love is fulfilled.
When the Oracle made that prediction for Elan, that the story would have a happy ending "for you, at least," Elan had a lot in common with that theoretical five-year-old. The happy ending he had in his head was unrealistic; he wouldn't accept an ending as "happy" if his parents weren't back together, his friends weren't all alive, he didn't get to ride a dinosaur, etc. It was an impossible prophecy for Elan as he was then, because his vision of a happy ending couldn't fit with the reality of the world.
What this illusion sequence has done is put Elan in a position where the Oracle's prediction can come true. By holding Elan's dreams up in front of him and showing how reality-incompatible they are, the illusion has forced him to scale back his happy ending to something the world can actually deliver. "For you, at least" had bittersweet implications I don't think we picked up on at the time—that Elan would have to pull his head out of the clouds, to lose his innocence in a way, before the story ended, because then-Elan's happy ending would never happen. #887 was aptly named, and was certainly a reference to the prophecy—but to the prophecy as Elan heard it, not the prophecy that will actually come true.
The illusion has drawn some boundaries for Elan, and for us as the audience. The future isn't an endless open vista of dinosaur rides and ice cream and reconciliations, and Elan's ready to accept that now. That leaves him ready to fulfill the Oracle's prophecy, by preparing him to find the happiness in what will inevitably be a bittersweet ending.
TLhikan
2013-05-22, 07:52 PM
I don't think that we can't say the ultimate ending of the comic won't be happy in some way, but I think you've hit it on the head with the fact that what had Elan's "happy ending" is exactly what he realized in 889 wasn't going to happen.
JessmanCA
2013-05-22, 08:01 PM
Maybe it means Haley will give him a special massage
I don't think that we can't say the ultimate ending of the comic won't be happy in some way,
I think you might not mean an undifferent number of negatives.
Bulldog Psion
2013-05-23, 01:11 AM
It basically means "ending the story on a positive note or at a positive, hopeful moment" in my opinion. :smallwink:
This message brought to you courtesy of Captain Obvious.
martianmister
2013-05-23, 08:42 AM
What does it mean to get a "happy ending," as the Oracle foretold for Elan?
It means "good triumphs over evil" kind of thing.
sparkyinbozo
2013-05-23, 09:31 AM
I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe THIS is Elan's happy ending from the prophecy, which would leave the story wide open for him. I think that realization, combined with this comic's, could be a major point of growth for him.
ThePhantasm
2013-05-23, 10:39 AM
I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe THIS is Elan's happy ending from the prophecy, which would leave the story wide open for him. I think that realization, combined with this comic's, could be a major point of growth for him.
Except that it isn't an "ending." The illusion was broken.
Reddish Mage
2013-05-23, 11:45 AM
What does it mean to get a "happy ending," as the Oracle foretold for Elan?
That's a rhetorical question—there isn't any one answer. The definition varies from person to person; it has to. If you asked a five-year-old what would count as a happy ending to a story they were in the middle of, you'd get a very different answer than their parent would give. The five-year-old might be unwilling to accept the pangs and compromises of a grown-up's happy ending—might insist that it can't be "happy" unless Superman gets to go home to Krypton, or Yoda comes back to life, or the sidekick's unrequited and impossible love is fulfilled.
When the Oracle made that prediction for Elan, that the story would have a happy ending "for you, at least," Elan had a lot in common with that theoretical five-year-old. The happy ending he had in his head was unrealistic; he wouldn't accept an ending as "happy" if his parents weren't back together, his friends weren't all alive, he didn't get to ride a dinosaur, etc. It was an impossible prophecy for Elan as he was then, because his vision of a happy ending couldn't fit with the reality of the world.
What this illusion sequence has done is put Elan in a position where the Oracle's prediction can come true. By holding Elan's dreams up in front of him and showing how reality-incompatible they are, the illusion has forced him to scale back his happy ending to something the world can actually deliver. "For you, at least" had bittersweet implications I don't think we picked up on at the time—that Elan would have to pull his head out of the clouds, to lose his innocence in a way, before the story ended, because then-Elan's happy ending would never happen. #887 was aptly named, and was certainly a reference to the prophecy—but to the prophecy as Elan heard it, not the prophecy that will actually come true.
The illusion has drawn some boundaries for Elan, and for us as the audience. The future isn't an endless open vista of dinosaur rides and ice cream and reconciliations, and Elan's ready to accept that now. That leaves him ready to fulfill the Oracle's prophecy, by preparing him to find the happiness in what will inevitably be a bittersweet ending.
I don't know about bittersweet. Elan shows us in 889 that he isn't a 5-year old and he doesn't have to get everything to be happy. I think that the "happy ending" may mean that Nale and Tarquin end up dead or otherwise out of commission though, as Elan's ending can't be marred by unfinished business.
sparkyinbozo
2013-05-23, 02:25 PM
Except that it isn't an "ending." The illusion was broken.
I think this just might be a difference of how we're defining ending. It's reminding me of a choose-your-own-adventure book and though this ending he experienced might not end up being the full cannon ending (because we went back and chose the proverbial option B), but it was still *a* happy ending that the story had. In fact, you might even say this was Elan's happiest possible ending; even he recognized it as irrationally happy. His realization here was that this type of happy ending isn't possible and I think it's a key Elan point of character growth.
Think of it as me saying, "This meal with have a delicious dessert," and giving you some awesometastic cheesecake as a 2nd course, followed by the final course being really disgusting normal cake. The meal had a delicious dessert, but not in the way dessert is traditionally served.
Given the Oracle's penchant for deceit, I don't think we can rule this option out. Nowhere did he say that the happy "ending" was anywhere near when the story was over. :)
Bulldog Psion
2013-05-23, 02:51 PM
Given the Oracle's penchant for deceit, I don't think we can rule this option out. Nowhere did he say that the happy "ending" was anywhere near when the story was over. :)
I agree totally. And I think this whole thing was partly included to re-create suspense. Now we can't be sure that Elan didn't have his happy ending. A seed of doubt has been planted, so what was once seemingly safe and secure i now on much shakier ground.
And that makes the story more exciting to read, which is a good thing. :smallsmile:
Selphares
2013-05-23, 05:10 PM
Considering how vague and far fetched the oracle is, this really could be his ending.
Ted The Bug
2013-05-23, 05:52 PM
Do you have the books? A fair bit of author commentary states pretty unambiguously that it won't be a downer ending. Not happy like this, obviously, but the Oracle's Elan prophecy is specifically pointed out to mean that no, OOTS won't become a sad story, no matter how dark individual parts can get.
rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-23, 05:52 PM
Given the Oracle's penchant for deceit...
Considering how vague and far fetched the oracle is, this really could be his ending.
"Penchant for deceit"?! "Vague and far fetched"?! It seems like he is completely truthful and scrupulously literal. (The "far fetched" explanations of Belkar having caused the deaths of Roy, Miko, and Windstriker--which were recognized by everyone, including the Oracle, as such--were explicitly lame excuses to try and avoid the actual fulfilment of that prophecy, which was Belkar stabbing the Oracle.)
This is definitely not the fulfilment of the Happy Ending prophecy. The question was "Will this story have a happy ending?" ("Yes -- for you at least.") Not "Will I have a happy ending?"
Even if the "from a certain point of view..." interpretation was credible, with which I strongly disagree, that would require the Oracle being able to see into the dream-world. Doubt it.
jere7my
2013-05-23, 05:56 PM
I don't know about bittersweet. Elan shows us in 889 that he isn't a 5-year old and he doesn't have to get everything to be happy. I think that the "happy ending" may mean that Nale and Tarquin end up dead or otherwise out of commission though, as Elan's ending can't be marred by unfinished business.
Yes, clearly in 889 he's mature enough to accept that his perfect ending isn't possible. My point is that he lacked that maturity when he received the prophecy, and this immersive, long-term illusion was what pushed him over the edge into being mature enough to accept mitigated happiness. Before 886, he was still holding out hope for what we were shown.
Cavenskull
2013-05-23, 06:24 PM
Think of it as me saying, "This meal with have a delicious dessert," and giving you some awesometastic cheesecake as a 2nd course, followed by the final course being really disgusting normal cake. The meal had a delicious dessert, but not in the way dessert is traditionally served.
Given the Oracle's penchant for deceit, I don't think we can rule this option out. Nowhere did he say that the happy "ending" was anywhere near when the story was over. :)
No, it's more like you saying, "This meal will have a delicious dessert," causing all your dinner guest to fantasize about a delicious dessert, but then you serve them a really disgusting normal cake. They never got to have the delicious dessert--they only got to imagine it. If imagining something is as good as really doing it, then Belkar's prophecy came true before he even asked about it, because he undoubtedly fantasized about killing everyone on his list.
As for the definition of "ending", I don't see how that's even negotiable. Unlike dessert, which technically only refers to a certain type of food item and not necessarily the point at which it is served (kids love eating dessert before--or instead of--dinner), an ending is the end of something. That pretty much precludes it being in the middle. Elan's fantasy having a happy ending is not the same as the story having a happy ending. And Elan's fantasy didn't have a happy ending, because it ended with Elan realizing that everything was too good to be true, resulting in a disruption that upset several imaginary characters and forced Roy and Haley to accept the same uncomfortable truth that Elan had realized.
Zmeoaice
2013-05-23, 06:31 PM
"Penchant for deceit"?! "Vague and far fetched"?! It seems like he is completely truthful and scrupulously literal. (The "far fetched" explanations of Belkar having caused the deaths of Roy, Miko, and Windstriker--which were recognized by everyone, including the Oracle, as such--were explicitly lame excuses to try and avoid the actual fulfilment of that prophecy, which was Belkar stabbing the Oracle.)
Avoiding it... or causing it?
Still doesn't make it less fulfilled.
Yendor
2013-05-23, 06:47 PM
Do you have the books? A fair bit of author commentary states pretty unambiguously that it won't be a downer ending. Not happy like this, obviously, but the Oracle's Elan prophecy is specifically pointed out to mean that no, OOTS won't become a sad story, no matter how dark individual parts can get.
The commentary says that when the entire saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending. And that there are things that simply can't happen, because they would invalidate that happy ending.
Rich goes on to say that -- as we see from Durkon -- a happy ending depends on the perspective of the person receiving it. So Elan here is forced to mature and change his ideas about what a happy ending for him is going to be.
sparkyinbozo
2013-05-23, 07:38 PM
The commentary says that when the entire saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending. And that there are things that simply can't happen, because they would invalidate that happy ending.
Ahhh, good point. I'd forgotten about that.
As far as to rodneyA/caven, consider the word "have" in the prophecy, as in "contain" or "possess." The story contains/possesses a happy ending for Elan; it's just located in the middle. Plus, as Hailey would tell you regarding the Oracle and deceit, the best deceptions are the ones based in truth. :smallbiggrin:
Domino Quartz
2013-05-24, 06:01 AM
As far as to rodneyA/caven, consider the word "have" in the prophecy, as in "contain" or "possess." The story contains/possesses a happy ending for Elan; it's just located in the middle. Plus, as Hailey would tell you regarding the Oracle and deceit, the best deceptions are the ones based in truth. :smallbiggrin:
It can't be a happy ending to the story, simply because it's not the end of the story. Also, technically true but useless predictions are not the same as knowingly false predictions. There's no indication that what the Oracle said is either of those.
Everybody and his sister for 3 weeks has been speculating along the lines of "O noes, this is the happy ending, eleven eleven." It's not a new idea.
What is more interesting is what the prophecies suggest about the future plot. Each of the prophecies covered a major narrative set piece, though not in order:
Haley: Cliffport murders, Nale's impersonation.
Belkar: after the Azure City battle, non-casters; Greysky.
Vaarsuvius: after the Azure City battle, casters; Azure refugees.
Roy: where to go after Azure City.
Durkon: where to go after Girard's Gate, Kraagor's Gate, dwarven homelands.
Elan: ending
In other words, we don't have any foreknowledge of anything specific before or after Kraagor's Gate, apart from Durkon's return, possibly Hilgya, the war on trees, Hel, O-Chul waiting... and the ending.
Cavenskull
2013-05-24, 11:47 PM
As far as to rodneyA/caven, consider the word "have" in the prophecy, as in "contain" or "possess." The story contains/possesses a happy ending for Elan; it's just located in the middle. Plus, as Hailey would tell you regarding the Oracle and deceit, the best deceptions are the ones based in truth. :smallbiggrin:
I've already considered that definition, and I don't see how anything satisfying could come from an interpretation like that. To go by that interpretation renders the Oracle's prophecy meaningless, because Elan's already had a number of genuine happy endings that are far more real than a shared hallucination. Elan got a real happy ending when he rescued the girl and found out she was madly in love with him. He got another happy ending when he and Haley were reunited after the extended aftermath of the Battle of Azure City. He got still another happy ending when he finally met his long-lost father and found out he was every bit as familiar with the rules of drama as Elan himself is. If I include lesser happy endings, such as Elan successfully founding his own religion or getting to ride a dinosaur or getting to make a dramatic escape from an exploding dungeon, I could come up with many happy endings that Elan has had, all of which are happier than an imaginary "happy ending" that ends with Elan crushing his own dreams.
No matter what reason the Oracle might have for screwing with Elan, why would Rich do it? I can definitely see a reason for Rich to use Elan's prophecy to assure his audience that the Order of the Stick series will end on a positive note. But I can't see a reason for Rich to toss in a prophecy that serves only as a meaningless deception, especially when other prophecies so far have had significant story implications.
...I can't see a reason for Rich to toss in a prophecy that serves only as a meaningless deception, especially when other prophecies so far have had significant story implications.
It depends what you mean by "serves as a meaningless deception." Whom is he fooling, the readers? ...or the characters?
If Elan believed that he'd already had his happy ending, would he change his behavior? If Roy believed that the Order had already seen the happy ending, would he change their tactics? Would he be willing to sacrifice more?
That's a fine distinction between "the prophecy really is fulfilled by the illusions," and "the characters believe that the prophecy is fulfilled." I'm just saying, I could see a potential purpose there.
Lecan
2013-05-25, 04:20 AM
I've already considered that definition, and I don't see how anything satisfying could come from an interpretation like that. To go by that interpretation renders the Oracle's prophecy meaningless, because Elan's already had a number of genuine happy endings that are far more real than a shared hallucination. Elan got a real happy ending when he rescued the girl and found out she was madly in love with him. He got another happy ending when he and Haley were reunited after the extended aftermath of the Battle of Azure City. He got still another happy ending when he finally met his long-lost father and found out he was every bit as familiar with the rules of drama as Elan himself is. If I include lesser happy endings, such as Elan successfully founding his own religion or getting to ride a dinosaur or getting to make a dramatic escape from an exploding dungeon, I could come up with many happy endings that Elan has had, all of which are happier than an imaginary "happy ending" that ends with Elan crushing his own dreams.
No matter what reason the Oracle might have for screwing with Elan, why would Rich do it? I can definitely see a reason for Rich to use Elan's prophecy to assure his audience that the Order of the Stick series will end on a positive note. But I can't see a reason for Rich to toss in a prophecy that serves only as a meaningless deception, especially when other prophecies so far have had significant story implications.
Except that none of those were ends to the story. The illusion was a (false) end to the story. That's the significant difference. The illusion can reasonably be construed as a happy ending to the story for Elan at least.
Edit: One possible reason for having the illusion be the fulfillment of the prophecy is that it allows for the possibility that things will end terribly for Elan. Previously, if he was in any danger we always knew that the story wouldn't end with him failing to come to terms with his family or having some sort of resolution with Haley. He was prophesied to receive a happy ending and that gave some measure of assurance. The Giant has removed almost every assurance and nearly every security measure. This allows for greater drama and more fulfilling denouement. Even if Elan still gets a happy ending to the story, this is masterful storytelling from a man who knows how to tell a compelling, human story that speaks to his audience on multiple levels. I would be incredibly surprised if Rich were to speak out and say that he never intended to introduce doubt with the sequence and the title to #887.
Edit2: corrected the comic number
Except that none of those were ends to the story. The illusion was a (false) end to the story. That's the significant difference. The illusion can reasonably be construed as a happy ending to the story for Elan at least.
The word "false" should not be stuck in parenthesis and brushed past as if it didn't matter like that.
None of those were ends to the story, and neither was the illusion. The Oracle did not say, "You will have a happy moment and believe the story is over."
nohamotyo
2013-05-25, 05:32 AM
I don't understand how people keep arguing that the events in the last few updates qualify as the story's happy ending (for Elan at least). At this point, the argument feels like faulty reading comprehension or sophistry.
To rehash an explanation given many times, the author has explained unambiguously that the happy ending will happen at the end of the OOTS comic. That's a level of certainty rarely seen for prophecies in fiction, yet that and repeated citations of the Word of Giant aren't enough. Oh well.
AstralFire
2013-05-25, 09:43 AM
The nature of webcomics and forums allows for an interesting sort of interactive, virtual death of the author.
pearl jam
2013-05-25, 11:22 AM
snip...
He was prophesied to receive a happy ending and that gave some measure of assurance. The Giant has removed almost every assurance and nearly every security measure. This allows for greater drama and more fulfilling denouement... snip
I guess you can make that argument if you believe that the Giant has, after the passage of time, reconsidered the wisdom of including the original prophecy and subsequent explanation that he included the prophecy explicitly to give readers assurance that the story would have a happy ending. If he has decided that such assurance was a bad idea after all, then perhaps this illusion could be a fulfillment of the prophecy. I see little reason, however, to assume Rich has made a complete 180 on this issue, however, and suddenly regrets the prophecy for Elan. Therefore, I think that, although the title of the comic is clearly a callback to the prophecy, the events themselves do not actually fulfill it.
Cavenskull
2013-05-26, 01:04 AM
Except that none of those were ends to the story. The illusion was a (false) end to the story. That's the significant difference. The illusion can reasonably be construed as a happy ending to the story for Elan at least.
I realize that none of them are an ending to the story as a whole. However, they are endings to various subplots or goals of Elan's. So if one is going to argue that the story "contains" a happy ending instead of actually ending with one, then the happy conclusion of various subplots might as well count. The illusion itself cannot be considered a happy ending to the story anyway, since not only was it an illusion, but the happy ending itself ended on a sour note. Elan totally ruined his parents' wedding and annoyed lots of people because he realized it was all too good to be true. To call the illusion a happy ending requires ignoring the part of it that wasn't happy.
Edit: One possible reason for having the illusion be the fulfillment of the prophecy is that it allows for the possibility that things will end terribly for Elan. Previously, if he was in any danger we always knew that the story wouldn't end with him failing to come to terms with his family or having some sort of resolution with Haley. He was prophesied to receive a happy ending and that gave some measure of assurance. The Giant has removed almost every assurance and nearly every security measure. This allows for greater drama and more fulfilling denouement. Even if Elan still gets a happy ending to the story, this is masterful storytelling from a man who knows how to tell a compelling, human story that speaks to his audience on multiple levels. I would be incredibly surprised if Rich were to speak out and say that he never intended to introduce doubt with the sequence and the title to #887.
Edit2: corrected the comic number
I have a lot of trouble believing Rich put in the illusion for this reason. If he did, it's a terrible way to fulfill the Oracle's prophecy, because it's nothing more than an in-comic rehash of a fantasy Elan has undoubtedly played through in his mind millions of times before this point. It just doesn't make sense to me that this would be good enough to fulfill a prophecy. If it is, then we might as well start accept that Roy and Elan are now brothers, because Elan imagined Tarquin adopting Roy. We can also assume that Eugene has finally moved on to the Lawful Good afterlife, because Roy fulfilled the blood oath by killing Xykon in the illusion. I would be incredibly surprised if Rich were to speak out and say that he intended to introduce Elan's happy ending with the sequence and the title to #887.
I guess one of us is destined to be incredibly surprised. :smallwink:
Edited to add: And if all that was intended to put Elan into the frying pan, then it has the effect of taking Belkar out of the frying pan, because he already had his permanent, irrevocable death in the illusion. Nobody resurrected him, and with the end of the dream, nobody ever will. That makes his death in the illusion as permanent as they come. So if an imaginary happy ending is enough to satisfy a prophecy, then Belkar must be off the hook, since his imaginary death was/is permanent.
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