(PF) Frontline melee that does more than just melee

[Coidzor]

So one of my friends is completely new to pathfinder and we're playing a pure pathfinder game for the first time, so 3.P tricks are either right out or will require a fair bit of persuasive arguing, since we're supposed to be doing a pure PF game to try it out proper.

The idea of having some mechanics (other than taking the leadership feat) to reflect leadership/teamwork/smart fighting in addition to being able to stand up and pull his weight as a primary melee seemed to be the crux of it.

Thought we'd found a fit with the cavalier but the mount's kind of problematic because we're going to be doing the Skull and Shackles AP and the mount would probably be left behind more often than not. None of the archetypes for cavalier that remove the Mount jive at all with what he wants to do, and the idea of just nixing a major class feature with nothing to show for it is kind of demoralizing. I was going to help him go through druid/ranger/paladin archetypes that nix their mounts/companions to see if there might be something that could be adapted or argued for there, but I figured I should run this by some more eyes to get a feel for how to maybe tackle it.

Was considering a Dervish Bard, but between the squishiness, lack of splat support for melee bards in PF, and not really wanting to mess around with a spell list it got ruled out fairly quickly as well.

Only thing that's coming to mind is maybe something in a Barbarian/Rogue multiclass with the right rogue talent/rage powers, but I'm just now even looking at those classes.

tl;dr: Want to make a Charismatic, Leader-type Primary Melee/Tank in PF without spells and Paladin is probably out, at least as an LG bog standard paladin.

[Waker]

Well, a Charismatic leader-type without spells could be a Holy Tactician Warrior of the Holy Light (Paladin). The alignment is somewhat problematic, but you could ask really nicely if the alignment variants were allowed, specifically Paladin of Freedom. That particular combo would let you buff others with teamwork feats, grant bonuses against targets that he has smote, remove bad stuff with his holy light, and let them rearrange themselves on the battlefield. He could also provide a bit of healing with his Lay on Hands.

Another option isn't particularly charismatic, but I still like the idea. A Guide Skirmisher Ranger. No magic, just a bunch of silly special attacks and bonuses. You've also got good HP, saves and skills.

An odd idea might be a Ki Mystic Sensei (Monk)/Ninja. You would have a decent amount of Ki that would let you mimic a bunch of Bardic Music Effects, you can let allies reroll and with Advice combined with Forgotten Trick, you can grant allies a number of weird abilities, like Vanishing Trick or whatever.

[Carth]

Before I make any recommendations, can you elaborate what you want in terms of being charismatic? If it requires actually buying points in charisma, that'll start introducing MADness problems even at 25 point buy. There isn't a great deal of support for non-paladins or non-casters using charisma in PF, so you're paying a steep price for a small bump to the social skills.

[Coidzor]

Well, a Charismatic leader-type without spells could be a Holy Tactician Warrior of the Holy Light (Paladin). The alignment is somewhat problematic, but you could ask really nicely if the alignment variants were allowed, specifically Paladin of Freedom. That particular combo would let you buff others with teamwork feats, grant bonuses against targets that he has smote, remove bad stuff with his holy light, and let them rearrange themselves on the battlefield. He could also provide a bit of healing with his Lay on Hands.

Sounds good, I'll have to check that one and the others out in more depth.


Another option isn't particularly charismatic, but I still like the idea. A Guide Skirmisher Ranger. No magic, just a bunch of silly special attacks and bonuses. You've also got good HP, saves and skills.

An odd idea might be a Ki Mystic Sensei (Monk)/Ninja. You would have a decent amount of Ki that would let you mimic a bunch of Bardic Music Effects, you can let allies reroll and with Advice combined with Forgotten Trick, you can grant allies a number of weird abilities, like Vanishing Trick or whatever.

Guide Skirmisher, does that play well with others if we've got 2-3 between primary melee and flankers on the table? I knew there had to be some permutation of Ranger that applied here, but wasn't quite sure.

What's the ninja contributing here aside from skillfulness?


Before I make any recommendations, can you elaborate what you want in terms of being charismatic? If it requires actually buying points in charisma, that'll start introducing MADness problems even at 25 point buy. There isn't a great deal of support for non-paladins or non-casters using charisma in PF, so you're paying a steep price for a small bump to the social skills.

We're playing Skull and Shackles so I believe he wants some ability to take on a Captaincy as well as having some Party Face capabilities. At least somewhat along the lines of the ideas in this discussion on leadership mechanics in 3.5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3065.0;wap2). I believe primary objective is a primary melee character with Face skills and then secondary is some mechanics that work with teamwork/leadership in combat or out.

I need to double check how we're generating stats though...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Go Barbarian.

Take Intimidating Glare rage power (and maybe the 8th level power that follows it) and the spirit totem line, which uses the barbarian's charisma for its attacks (in return for the MAD introduced, it' a separate creature/thing attacking, so you get the attack even when you can't full attack). I know PF has recently "corrected" the Totem Warrior "error" and there is now no legal way to have two totems, but I would suggest waiving that for the player. He's already making a character not well supported by the rules, not being able to get Greater Beast Totem (aka, POUNCE) just because he wanted to levy his charisma a bit is really cruel.

Be an Invulnerable Rager for the DR to take hits. If he should reach higher levels, take Come and Get Me as soon as he hits Barbarian 12 (you'll want Combat Reflexes before this point) and also take Dazing Assault feat, and he will instantly be one of the best tanks in the game.

Dipping Oracle for 1 level is also helpful for the Lame curse (so that at Oracle 1 / Barbarian 8 he counts as a level 5 Oracle for the curse and is immune to fatigue, allowing him to use 1/rage powers 1/round), and that is a charisma-based caster. He doesn't want ot be a caster, but... a single level won't kill him... I'd suggest going with Dual-Cursed so he can get the Misfortune revelation. Unlike the identically named witch hex, this can be used to help allies as well as hinder foes, and is a great ability for a leader-type to have.

EDIT:
Also check out the Freebooter Ranger. It gets a group buffing ability at 1st level and is fairly leader-like. If he wants to get rid of spells, he can take the Trapper archetype or some other options. None are worth the lost spellcasting, but he could make do.

For how to tank with a ranger... the "weapon and shield" style is blessed with some early entry feats - Shield Slam at level 2 and Shield Master at level 6. I have a build that works towards fighting with two spiked Bashing heavy shields by level 6 or there-about, based around bull rushing since every attack he makes can initiate a push. Works good with a battlefield control caster to knock foes back into the mires of suck the caster creates, especially fun with the Pit spells

[Waker]

Guide Skirmisher, does that play well with others if we've got 2-3 between primary melee and flankers on the table? I knew there had to be some permutation of Ranger that applied here, but wasn't quite sure.
It can work decently. Guide grants a bonus to initiative and skills to allies when in a favored terrain. Skirmisher has a number of tricks associated with allies, like Aiding Attack, Ranger's Council and Vengeance Strike.


What's the ninja contributing here aside from skillfulness?
The draw of the ninja is the synergy between ninja tricks and using Sensei's Mystic Wisdom. This lets you share a class ability with an ally(ies). Dipping into Ninja lets you grab Forgotten Trick, which can let you spontaneously "know" a ninja trick. So you can grant allies a bonus on Acrobatics, Darkvision, Shadow Clone or whatever else catches your eye. It costs a bit of Ki to use that route, but it is still pretty fun.


Also check out the Freebooter Ranger. It gets a group buffing ability at 1st level and is fairly leader-like. If he wants to get rid of spells, he can take the Trapper archetype or some other options. None are worth the lost spellcasting, but he could make do.
I had forgotten about that archetype. That would probably be a better choice over Guide.

[navar100]

1) You can play a Samurai using one of the Cavalier Orders. While Samurai does have a class ability tied to a Mount, it's only that one useful for when it applies. You really don't lose any class abilities because you can't take a mount with you to some place. Refluff flavor text to fit "Cavalier" as need be.

2) Convince another player, preferably a warrior-type, to take teamwork feats together. Good roleplay potential.

3) Paladin

4) If the player doesn't mind using magic for his character idea, Cleric or Oracle can work focusing on party buff spells. If he really wants to feel like a warrior, Oracle with Battle Mystery gets proficiency with all martial weapons and heavy armor. As a spontaneous caster he can spam buff spells on the party when preparing for a known battle. A cleric usually prepares Bull's Strength just once for one battle of the day, maybe a second one and has to choose to cast it on himself or the party's warrior. An Oracle just knowing the spell can go nova casting it on himself, the party's warrior, and anyone else in the party who could use it. Ditto other buff spells like Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance.

[Curious]

Go Barbarian.

Take Intimidating Glare rage power (and maybe the 8th level power that follows it) and the spirit totem line, which uses the barbarian's charisma for its attacks (in return for the MAD introduced, it' a separate creature/thing attacking, so you get the attack even when you can't full attack). I know PF has recently "corrected" the Totem Warrior "error" and there is now no legal way to have two totems, but I would suggest waiving that for the player. He's already making a character not well supported by the rules, not being able to get Greater Beast Totem (aka, POUNCE) just because he wanted to levy his charisma a bit is really cruel.

Be an Invulnerable Rager for the DR to take hits. If he should reach higher levels, take Come and Get Me as soon as he hits Barbarian 12 (you'll want Combat Reflexes before this point) and also take Dazing Assault feat, and he will instantly be one of the best tanks in the game.

Dipping Oracle for 1 level is also helpful for the Lame curse (so that at Oracle 1 / Barbarian 8 he counts as a level 5 Oracle for the curse and is immune to fatigue, allowing him to use 1/rage powers 1/round), and that is a charisma-based caster. He doesn't want ot be a caster, but... a single level won't kill him... I'd suggest going with Dual-Cursed so he can get the Misfortune revelation. Unlike the identically named witch hex, this can be used to help allies as well as hinder foes, and is a great ability for a leader-type to have.


In addition to this, try out Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize). Only way I know of to force enemies to attack you in Pathfinder.

[Carth]

You could pick any class without increasing MADness too much, come to think. With 25 point buy you could go 16/14/14/12/10/12 (that only uses 24 points), and grab the extremely fashionable trait for +1 to diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate, taking one as a class skill. The bump to int would give him room to put ranks in diplomacy if he doesn't have his heart set on anything else. That would still let him be good at his primary role of smashing things while still being decently in social situations without using a lot of character resources. That's potentially 5 skill points per level if you use favored class for the skill and be a human. So you could put ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, perception, and something else. There are traits that grant perception as a class skill if needed, that'd also be a solid choice, I find many new players hate failing perception rolls.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The Battle Herald is an interesting prestige class designed exactly for this role. It's a combo of bard and cavalier. You could actually get entry with 1 level of bard, and 4 levels of cavalier (standard bearer) and not have to deal with being based on mounted combat.

And if your DM lets you take leadership, the class gives bonuses to your leadership score.

[Spuddles]

What about synthesist summoner? Dump physical stats, go to old age, nab a couple flaws to get some more class skills.

You should be able to melee fairly well, get good party buffs, and can have a 20 charisma and 16 str.

A lot of bookkeeping for a new player, though.

No explicit teamwork, but haste is pretty helpful. And if you go human, pb14 int and bump it to 16 with age, and pick summoner as favored class, that's an extra 5 skill pts you probably wouldnt see with, say, a paladin.

You can also join a spellcaster's guild for esoteric training and dip monk or something to round out your melee capabilities without losing spellcasting avancement.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If you want to be a smart fighter play a Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden).

Upside: You get two extra skill points to spend on Knowledge and they're all CSes for you, at level 7 a special ability to roll Knowledge for a +2 attack and damage, you also get free combat expertise and bonuses to your CMB/D.

Downside: Loose medium and heavy armor, loose armor training.

If you want to be charismatic you are kinda stuck with MAD though for anything Fightery. Either ease off on your attack stat to a 16-17, take Dex or Wis penalties (eww), go without a Cha bonus, or only try it on a 25+ point buy stats. 20 points will get you a Human with: 16, 12, 14, 13, 10, 14. That's 4 skill points so you can take Diplomacy and Intimidate with 2 left over to spread around. Favored class for another depeding on how fragile you feel and how HP is being rolled.

Some feat for you:

Fast Learner (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dVQA-uI740Hh8vq-zsnbHV6UwJg-4QKlpmkxBEmCdhA/edit#) doubles get you two favored class bonuses.

Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final) adds your strength to Intimidate. And Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat) turns that Intimidate into an area effect centered on you plus has some interesting feats its a prereq for.

Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) lets you Intimidate on Power Attacks as a free action.

Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) will let you use Intimidate or Diplomacy to manipulate foes into attacking you.

[Morbis Meh]

I second the synthesist summoner, great front liner, based off charisma (you will need to use traits to pick up some of the social skills as class skills eg fast talker for bluff) He can forgo dex and str and pump charisma he will still be a caster of sorts so he can perform out of combat utility as well. Go half elf for the favored class bonus and if allowed to stack it with wild caller for an extra evolution point every second level. This way he will be able to swim and fly no problem and tear enemies to shreds.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Summoners are the probably best tanks in the game because Eidolons are Animal Companions on crack. And a Synthesist lets you wear it and add it to your hitpoint plus is the only stat swapping in the game... no wonder its the closest thing to a banned class (no PFS play) in the game.

Add spellcasting and things like the Dimensional feat chain at mid levels... savage.

However the OP specified without spellcasting.

[Coidzor]

Well, thank you all for the feedback. Looks like he's bowing out though. :smallfrown:

Hmm, now to figure out what to do with an oracle, an alchemist, a gunslinger/rogue(?) skillmonkey, and myself.

[Wings of Peace]

Wait wait! He can't bow out till I cast my vote for synthesist summoner as well!

[TuggyNE]

Wait wait! He can't bow out till I cast my vote for synthesist summoner as well!

It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

… does the Playground even have a fat lady? :smallconfused:

[Carth]

We just need to create a bard with max ranks in perform (sing), and willing deformity and obese feats. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

We just need to create a bard with max ranks in perform (sing), and willing deformity and obese feats. :smallbiggrin:

Technically, it's Perform (Wagnerian Operatic Soprano), I think. But who's counting? I am. I'm always counting.

[Talentless]

I know I'm real late to the party, and that the guy in the OP has apparently decided not to either play, or not play the melee guy but...

Inspiring Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/rite-publishing---cavalier-archetypes/inspiring-commander)

Is basically a Frontline Melee with more than just melee in a nutshell.

Does happen to be 3rd party though, so may not fly with some DMs.

[Coidzor]

I know I'm real late to the party, and that the guy in the OP has apparently decided not to either play, or not play the melee guy but...

Inspiring Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/rite-publishing---cavalier-archetypes/inspiring-commander)

Is basically a Frontline Melee with more than just melee in a nutshell.

Does happen to be 3rd party though, so may not fly with some DMs.

That does seem like it would have been right up his alley. Sadly, he mostly bowed out because of the online medium.