To Dip or not to Dip?

[Raendyn]

I have a question for you guys,

Its a moral question rather than an optimization one.

I am playing a lvl 3 duskblade atm in a 3-man party with a rogue and a cleric. I am thinking to dip conjurer for abrupt jaunt. I know its a worthy trade but my conscience stalls me from taking it, and here is why:

The other 2 guys SUCK BIG TIME.

With a rogue who rolled 15 as his lowest stat BUT still being unable to stay consious and do any dmg. and a cleric with meh spell selection (improved to "meh" after my suggestions) and Nagotiator feet. I already feel OP and I practicaly win every combat alone having the other two asking how can I do so much dmg(omg PAttack + channeled shocking grasp) while contributing with a hold person at best.

The whole problem is that I was trying to hold myself at a med powerlvl cause I knew that they would suck, but since the DM started focusing me, I am now in grave danger for 3 sessions already and thats not fun at all. Even new enemies focus me(yeah I ask the same question :smallannoyed:), and I believe that Ab.Jaunt will increase my survivability.

So how do you feel about it? Is it too cheesy for this party?
PLEASE dont start with hypothetical alternatives and builds and etc. just about Jaunt and the moral problems about its cheese in the current party.

Thanks in advance!

[eggynack]

Is an abrupt jaunt conjurer level even optimal for your character? I mean, it's really frigging sweet, but it seems like you're decreasing your BAB, your duskblade casting progression, and cool duskblade class feature progression, all for a supremely nifty teleportation ability. It doesn't seem worth the trade off. So, I guess you can continue forward with both good faith and my blessing. Besides, if you're suggesting actually cool spells, it seems like the cleric will start outpacing you soon anyway.

[Eslin]

Duskblades don't have any other swift actions, the teleport 3+int times is 3+int attacks per day that just plain won't hit you. Along with cleric, it's the one level dip almost any build can afford.

It'll drop his BAB and progression - but he's already leagues ahead of his badly optimised party mates. I'd go for it in a heartbeat, personally.

[Elric VIII]

...Nagotiator...

I know this is just a typo, but I really want this to be a feat. Get people to do what you want by being annoying yet persistent. :smallbiggrin:

As for the dip, it's probably not a big deal. Consider this, the Wizard is a howitzer and the Duskblade is a rifleman. Teleportation is more devastating on one of these things than the other. Especially if you choose to use it as an offensive tactic, teleporting into a group of enemies and whipping the s&@% out of them with the full attack channel.

[eggynack]

Duskblades don't have any other swift actions, the teleport 3+int times is 3+int attacks per day that just plain won't hit you. Along with cleric, it's the one level dip almost any build can afford.

It'll drop his BAB and progression - but he's already leagues ahead of his badly optimised party mates. I'd go for it in a heartbeat, personally.
It's certainly nice, I'm not arguing that. It just doesn't seem like what a duskblade wants to be doing. It gives you some really solid defenses, but duskblades always seemed to lend themselves more to offence in my opinion. I'm not saying he shouldn't do it; I'm just saying that he shouldn't resist doing it under the assumption that the dip is a particularly high op strategy. I'd honestly prefer the cleric dip personally.

[Raendyn]

I know this is just a typo, but I really want this to be a feat. Get people to do what you want by being annoying yet persistent. :smallbiggrin:

As for the dip, it's probably not a big deal. Consider this, the Wizard is a howitzer and the Duskblade is a rifleman. Teleportation is more devastating on one of these things than the other. Especially if you choose to use it as an offensive tactic, teleporting into a group of enemies and whipping the s&@% out of them with the full attack channel.

Its a typo and Its the feat:smalleek:.

Full attack channel is in 9 levels and never gona happen tbh.:smallfrown:

[Eslin]

So, in general it's not the greatest idea, but make your character for your campaign - you're already powerful enough offense wise, you aren't sacrificing eventual power because you won't reach that point, so I'd go for it.

In fact, if you want to be really nice to your group, make a handyman. Take a level of cleric, a level of binder, grab dragonfire adept and entangling exhalation. Make a character not incredibly powerful, but good at a lot of little things, and you'll be incredibly useful and versatile without making them feel bad. Duskblade 3 is a good initial start to that - lets you use any touch spell you manage to pick up in conjunction with melee.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Before you even consider a character building solution to the problem at hand, you need to be aware of what that problem is: you're starting a DM-Player arms race.

No good will come of this.

What you should do, IMO, is address this OOC with your group. Something to the effect of, "hey guys, I can't help but notice that my duskblade has pulled far enough ahead of the other PC's in relative power that our DM is starting to focus on him too much. What do you think we should do about this?" followed by suggestions such as toning down the duskblade, beefing up the other PC's, or perhaps even retiring the character and bringing in something a bit less powerful.

Amping the duskblade up even more to improve his survivability, without discussing the problem at hand, will likely only result in even harder encounters wherein the other PC's become ever more marginalized until the whole thing goes critical mass and a TPK happens.

At least that's my 2cp. Good luck.

[juicycaboose]

Duskblades don't have any other swift actions,

?
they have a class feature that basically gives them sudden quicken a number of times per day...

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, seriously, if you are going to dip conjurer, go the distance. Take Abjurent Champion as soon as you qualify.

There is even an argument for duskblade 3 / conjurer 4 / Abjurent Champion 5 / xxx (wizard PRC)

3rd level is a break away point for duskblade. Going conjurer will get you better spells.

[Bakkan]

Before you even consider a character building solution to the problem at hand, you need to be aware of what that problem is: you're starting a DM-Player arms race.

No good will come of this.

What you should do, IMO, is address this OOC with your group. Something to the effect of, "hey guys, I can't help but notice that my duskblade has pulled far enough ahead of the other PC's in relative power that our DM is starting to focus on him too much. What do you think we should do about this?" followed by suggestions such as toning down the duskblade, beefing up the other PC's, or perhaps even retiring the character and bringing in something a bit less powerful.

Amping the duskblade up even more to improve his survivability, without discussing the problem at hand, will likely only result in even harder encounters wherein the other PC's become ever more marginalized until the whole thing goes critical mass and a TPK happens.

At least that's my 2cp. Good luck.

I agree with Keb_Panthera. An arms race in which the other two players have already lost is not going to turn out fun for anyone. Also, Abrupt Jaunt is really powerful. It's hard to justify having a rogue in the party when you can just teleport to the other side of every locked door, or a cleric when you never need healing. The sduskblade has no glaring weaknesses, but defense is not one of his strengths. If you add Abrupt Jaunt, it's going to make the other players feel even more superfluous.

I suggest dipping into something like Marshal or Bard (if you have the Cha) or Artificer. Something with low personal combat prowess that makes your allies better. Once parityis achieved, and they are doing about the same in combat as you, go ahead and start taking more duskblade levels.

[Eslin]

?
they have a class feature that basically gives them sudden quicken a number of times per day...

Once a day at level 5, which he's nowhere near. Which still is very unlikely to interfere with abrupt jaunt.

[cerin616]

I think the dip should be just fine. Just because 2 people arn't playing as well as you doesnt mean your character should be killed. And a new defensive trick isn't going to make your character that much more powerful, it should just make you a bit more on the "I can compensate for my group" side.

I feel you, I'm in a campaign right now with a few inexperienced players. We have a warblade I am helping stay above the curve and a cleric who does decent but certainly wont go the game breaking optimized route. I am just focusing on making my skillmonkey able to survive encounters where i set myself up to give flanking bonuses, and to cast buff spells to help out when we don't quite remember that no one has darkvision.

[GeekGirl]

I'm on the side of Bakkan and Kelb_Panthera. This should be handle OOC. I don't think abrupt jaunt is going to make you overly powerful, and is a nice way to go. But your issue with the group and DM can't be solved by character builds.

[only1doug]

The whole problem is that I was trying to hold myself at a med powerlvl cause I knew that they would suck, but since the DM started focusing me, I am now in grave danger for 3 sessions already and thats not fun at all. Even new enemies focus me(yeah I ask the same question :smallannoyed:), and I believe that Ab.Jaunt will increase my survivability.



Before you even consider a character building solution to the problem at hand, you need to be aware of what that problem is: you're starting a DM-Player arms race.

No good will come of this.

What you should do, IMO, is address this OOC with your group. Something to the effect of, "hey guys, I can't help but notice that my duskblade has pulled far enough ahead of the other PC's in relative power that our DM is starting to focus on him too much. What do you think we should do about this?" followed by suggestions such as toning down the duskblade, beefing up the other PC's, or perhaps even retiring the character and bringing in something a bit less powerful.

Amping the duskblade up even more to improve his survivability, without discussing the problem at hand, will likely only result in even harder encounters wherein the other PC's become ever more marginalized until the whole thing goes critical mass and a TPK happens.

At least that's my 2cp. Good luck.

I think Kelb's right, If you focus on becoming unhittable the GM will just bring out stuff that hits harder and harder until something gets through.

The trouble is that the DM has realised that the rogue is made of glass and that the cleric is a stand back and heal kind of guy, this leaves you the tank role and thats what he's doing, sending stuff to hit the tank.

there are a few choices, the best plan is to have a discussion session with the group and decide how to proceed.
While it's beenno fun for you to be the sole target of the enemies do remember that the rogue probably didn't enjoy all the near death experiences he'd been having either and the chances are that the cleric wouldn't like it if he was the target.

Another approach might be to embrace the attacks, if they want you to be the tank then tank well!
Perhaps dip crusader instead for the delayed damage pool and the healing abilities? (increasing your survivability without evading the attacks)

[Raendyn]

thank you all for your replies.

I have to say that I am surprised in a good way with the quality of the responds:smallcool:.

I understand and accept the "talk ooc and dont improve your char too much or its gona be worse" But there is a major problem with that. The other 2 guys are rly newbs and not even trying to learn combat mechanics, the DM's opinions is that they will learn either by watching me or by dying and then taking it more seriously. But the guy that pays the price is me, cuz I am the one that does high dmg and charges yelling on his 1st turn. I explained the problem but he says that I should be more passive and let them be punished for their mistakes in combat. The big problem is that I refuse to do it, cause when I tried it once they noticed it and the party blamed me for our -9hp rogue, not to mention that the DM punishes OOC advices during combat, "its their turn now, u shut up, let them play as they like". This whole thing has become a mess, he nearly killed me for asking them OOC to stop attacking the Aballin that has captured me...

I thought about AJ as a mehcanism that wouldnt only save me but also remove threat from me, cuz since the DM wanna be fair and has a logical campaign, and in this world enemies try to kill the guy with the glittering lance that charges yelling and chops their allies in half, then the same guys will try to kill 1st the guys they can touch.

Its my last attempt(I will also remove the yelling) before rerolling since I dont wanna be unable to play as I like cuz in this world charging creates a glowing NEON sign above your head that says " KILL ME ASAP".

[Miranius]

Well, it seems your DM is just as much the problem as the other players are, if not more so.
If i were you, i`d just down 2-3 combos/strategies for the other characters on little post-it notes and let them think about using them. In case they`re really not interested in learning the game you`ll have a rather frustrating time between them and your DM sooner or later i`m afraid.

[Namfuak]

Something I noticed about low level duskblades is that they tend to deal a lot of damage a few times a day with shocking grasp, but later it will level off some. In a campaign I was in where my friend was a duskblade, without any other modifications he could do something like 1d10+3d6+5 damage 5 times a day, which averages out to at least half your normal enemy's HP. However, that damage will start getting outpaced when people are getting iterative attacks. It may be worth it to you to simply stick it out for now, and perhaps suggest to your DM that he try using enemies with resistance to your spells, or with damage reduction.

[CaladanMoonblad]

...

The other 2 guys SUCK BIG TIME.

...
The whole problem is that I was trying to hold myself at a med powerlvl cause I knew that they would suck, but since the DM started focusing me, I am now in grave danger for 3 sessions already and thats not fun at all. Even new enemies focus me(yeah I ask the same question :smallannoyed:), and I believe that Ab.Jaunt will increase my survivability.

So how do you feel about it? Is it too cheesy for this party?
PLEASE dont start with hypothetical alternatives and builds and etc. just about Jaunt and the moral problems about its cheese in the current party.

Thanks in advance!

I highlighted something that if I were your GM, I'd find problematic.

There is no wrong way to roleplay as long as everyone is having fun.

If you are not having fun playing in a group that does not have the same system mastery as you, leave it. Go find a game that you are happy, and let the other group play as they wish, and tell the stories they want to tell.

If I were one of the other players, and I saw this thread? I certainly wouldn't want to play with you anymore.

In the future, please use tact, or you will very likely hurt someone's feelings that you honestly did not mean to do so.

[Gildedragon]

I'll add that if you're the person with the most system mastery I'd advise dming soon.

[Raendyn]

Its been some time since I touched my pc, bussy days...


Something I noticed about low level duskblades is that they tend to deal a lot of damage a few times a day ....

This is true but the encounters help me manage resources, I adviced the DM to seperate the total encounter HP in smaller/more mobs. but at lvl 4(yes, I took the duskblade #4) PA on its own is powerfull enough, since the dmg is 1d10+1W,+6STR,+8PA,+4d6SG,+3d6BoBlood. Blade of blodd is an overkill when its near the rest time and I have spare 1Sts, but even the non-magic dmg is above the average on those lvls.


honest stuff

Well, I was a little sharp out there, but there's no real insult behind my words.
when in 6, 10-12 houred sessions the rogue has done 30 dmg total I can tell out of game to my best friend " bro u suck big time in dnd".

Sry if I offended anyone, I had in mind a "dudes" type of speaking, maybe cause of my long time membership in the forum. As for my buddies, they dont read GitP, theres a reason I am posting in this way :smallcool:.


I'll add that if you're the person with the most system mastery I'd advise dming soon.

The dm knows the mechanics pretty well as well. I am there only cause one of the guys is a rly good friend and asked me to join. If I ever DM dnd 3.5 again I'll definatelly pick completly newbs, so I can transfer to them my playstyle.

As for the topic, I wonder maybe I shouldnt resurrect it, but I it seems I will. For the record, I got Duskblade 4 and will get AJaunt next lvl, as I had a long conversation with the dm about the matter and he told me that it will help. Both in not getting punished for someone else's combat mistakes, and for offence too, he also thinks that at 5th lvl the 3rd lvl spells will bring the cleric closer to me and the loss of bab will keep my PA low enough.

I also used in game RP to get data about the cleric's spellist and made my in game suggestions and created some plans witht the cleric. So I got over the DM's wall about ooc planns and "playing" other's chars.

thank u all for the replies,

[eggynack]

If your primary goal from abrupt jaunt is offence related, have you considered anklets of translocation? It costs 1,400 GP, and gives you a swift action 10 foot teleport twice a day. It's not as good as abrupt jaunt, but it also doesn't cost a level.

[Raendyn]

If your primary goal from abrupt jaunt is offence related, have you considered anklets of translocation? It costs 1,400 GP, and gives you a swift action 10 foot teleport twice a day. It's not as good as abrupt jaunt, but it also doesn't cost a level.

its not the primary, I know anklets and would have bought them if not for the AJ, I already have chronochasm of the horizon wolker, that does nearly the same thing. but AJ is immediate and I can dodge things, especially big bad things thrown or lunged at me.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Hey, if you guys talk that way with each other and are cool with it, no problem. I know my friends (and my friend's friends) regularly insult my playing skills in other games, but if we understand where the seriousness starts, it's fine.

As for the character, I'd suggest helping those who don't know as much. Explain to the rogue (OOC, without the DM, who seems to be pretty problematic) how rogues can do a lot of burst damage, teach him the tricks and trades. Explain the benefits of two-weapon fighting and the sneak-attack power. Show him his usefulness as an out of combat scout and party face. The cleric is pretty weak at low levels, but level 3 he starts to get some pretty good buffs.
http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=420.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233
Those are the two handbooks for them. Rogue is easiest to get better with; craven feat and then two-weapon fighting. However, the cleric should try for some some buffs to increase the other two's survivability and damage so they don't feel useless. If you can, help them build their characters more effectively. You can't count on the DM, apparently...
However, for your character's power, giving a dip in cleric will give you vigor, which might occasionally help you guys. However, if you manage to get the rogue to his full-damage potential, and the cleric to his buffy goodness, go crusader for a level and become a tank, as someone else said. I'd suggest Iron Guard's Glare and the Crusader's Strike.

[Callin]

When I Dip
You Dip
We Dip

(been eating me alive to not do that... so now I had to)