The Best Climber She Can Be

[Palanan]

I'm working up a character who's devoted to climbing, and I could use some advice on how to maximize her potential in a five- or six-level build.

This will be an NPC for a city campaign I've been kicking around; she was originally trained as a dancer, became an aerialist with a traveling show, and is now a full-time thrillseeker where heights are concerned. I'm thinking she'll be a straight feat-rogue 5, maybe topped off with a level of Thief-Acrobat. No spellcasting, and probably very few magic items, but the sky's the limit where mundane gear is concerned.

--At least, that's the theory. Trouble is, she's showered in feats, but there don't seem to be that many which could actually help. Athletic is there, but quintessentially meh. Mountaineer (Frostburn p. 49) gives a +2 on Climb and Survival, but this is a city girl we're talking about. Daredevil Athlete (Complete Scoundrel p. 76) is perfect...but I'm not finding much more like it out there.

So, is there anything else I can use for this concept?

[Barsoom]

Are Spell-like abilities, perchance, okay? Warlock 1 with Spiderwalk? Or is it too magical for your tastes?

[Fable Wright]

Roofwalker and Roof-Jumper are both feats for urban jungle explorers, and even have an annoying, handy little feat chain requirement to eat up the excess feats.

[limejuicepowder]

There's an AFC for the scout from...I wanna say Cityscape that trades fast movement for a climb speed and bonus defense when skirmishing adjacent to a wall. Should be perfect.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is the thief acrobat class. It gives you some cool jumping and climbing stuff.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Barsoom
Are Spell-like abilities, perchance, okay? Warlock 1 with Spiderwalk? Or is it too magical for your tastes?

That's a really cool idea...which I'll keep in mind for later use. Definitely too magical for this particular character; she climbs for the physical challenge and the pure rush of it all.


Originally Posted by DMofDarkness
Roofwalker and Roof-Jumper are both feats for urban jungle explorers, and even have an annoying, handy little feat chain requirement to eat up the excess feats.

Thanks, saw those right off. Unfortunately, they want Dodge and Mobility, and even on an NPC with more feats than I've managed to count, I just can't bring myself to take Dodge and Mobility. The heart and mind rebel.


Originally Posted by limejuicepowder
There's an AFC for the scout from...I wanna say Cityscape that trades fast movement for a climb speed and bonus defense when skirmishing adjacent to a wall. Should be perfect.

Thanks for suggesting this; it's actually from PHB II, p. 59. (Not that I knew this, but the Alternative Class Features III (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) compilation is really handy at moments like this.)

The Dungeon Specialist ACF is interesting...but it's for Scout 3, and three levels of scout wouldn't really fit with what I have in mind. Also, most of the benefits involve improving your combat while climbing, and this particular climber would much rather not be in a fight at all.



Thanks for the suggestions, keep 'em coming. There's got to be another clever feat or two out there. Otherwise I'll have to fall back on static standbys like Luck of Heroes, Surefooted, and maybe even "Thug."

:smallfrown:

[Fable Wright]

Thanks, saw those right off. Unfortunately, they want Dodge and Mobility, and even on an NPC with more feats than I've managed to count, I just can't bring myself to take Dodge and Mobility. The heart and mind rebel.

Er... you do realize that Dodge and Mobility give you access to some really awesome feats, yes? Granted, most of them come into play when you have BAB +6, but even Roofwalker, Roofjumper, and Sidestep make it worth it and actually fit the character decently well. At BAB +6, Elusive Target and Shi'Quos School are rather fitting...

All of the actually impressive movement based feats require the tithe of Dodge + Mobility. Regrettably.

Also, Martial Study for Sudden Leap could be a handy feat to pick up.

[limejuicepowder]

The agile athlete feat allows you to use dexterity instead of strength for climb and jump checks. It's from races of the wild. Should be good for this character, though it doesn't help class choices.

Yah really don't like the scout huh? Let me try to convince you :)

1) same skills as rogue, so you won't be hampered by that.

2) the dungeon specialist gives a whopping +8 to climb, along with the ability to take 10 on climb checks. It doesn't get better than that.

3) taking improved skirmish at level 6 would give her a +5 AC bonus after moving 20 feet while being adjacent to a wall. Combined with her ability to scramble up and down walls at will, she will be very difficult to hit. Mobility can potentially be used to get an AC boost for the 20 feet prior to gaining the skirmish bonus.

I'm sold on the idea at least.

The other class I can think of would be ninja, also from complete adventurer. They don't gain anything awesome for climb per say, but they do gain leap of the heavens at level 4. This lets them make running jumps without running - combined with some skill tricks like leaping climber and walk the walls, she'd be able to pull off some nifty things.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder
Yah really don't like the scout huh? Let me try to convince you :)

Well, you definitely make a good case for the scout. I've never really gotten the scout, but I'll give it a rethink. I have to confess that a +8 racial bonus to Climb certainly grabs my attention.


Originally Posted by limejuicepowder
Combined with her ability to scramble up and down walls at will, she will be very difficult to hit. Mobility can potentially be used to get an AC boost for the 20 feet prior to gaining the skirmish bonus.

Hmm, hmm. Worth looking into, that's for sure. Scrambling up and down walls at will fits the concept perfectly. --And thanks for suggesting Agile Athlete, that's absolutely perfect for her.


Originally Posted by DMofDarkness
Er... you do realize that Dodge and Mobility give you access to some really awesome feats, yes? Granted, most of them come into play when you have BAB +6....

Well, this NPC will be fifth or sixth level at most, so she may never reach BAB +6.

Elusive Target looks like a great feat for fighter-types, but this is someone who avoids combat pretty much as a lifestyle choice. She's definitely not going to be provoking AoOs and hoping someone misses so she can make a free trip attempt.

[Valwyn]

If you need more feats, Unearthed Arcana has an ACF that lets you give up your rogue sneak attack for fighter feats. It should at least help you pay for Dodge and Mobility, even if you give up your main means of dealing damage. Not that this character seems the fighting sort.

[Spuddles]

I want to say that there's a consumable in one of the completes that gives you a +1 alchemical bonus on climb checks for an hour. Makes your hands sticky.

[Waker]

To be a non-magical climber, your best bet is to either go Scout with the aforementioned ACF or Swordsage grabbing the Dance of the Spider stance from Shadow Hand.

[THEChanger]

If you're opposed to Dodge for philosophical reasons, Desert Wind Dodge from ToB, Midnight Dodge from Magic of Incarnum, and Expeditious Dodge from...Races of the Wild, I believe, each count as Dodge for the purposes of requirements. Desert Wind is definately better than standard Dodge, though it requires a single Deset Wind maneuver, so it might not be appropriate here. Expeditious Dodge is debatable, but at least the bonus applies to all enemies. My favorite by far is Midnight Dodge though. Gives a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, all enemies, no questions asked. Can be improved by adding more Essentia, but you don't really need to have anything else from Magic of Incarnum to make it work.

If you were looking to go down that route.

[avr]

The psionic feat Up The Walls isn't the complete answer to climbing, but is very handy for a parkour type.

In the Eberron Campaign Setting, Extreme Explorer is a PrC you might like to take a look at.

[Juntao112]

One level of warlock...

[mangosta71]

Wereleopard. Big bonus to climb, can always choose to take 10 on the check.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Valwyn
If you need more feats, Unearthed Arcana has an ACF that lets you give up your rogue sneak attack for fighter feats.

Yup, I love this variant, and that was my original plan for the chassis: feat-rogue 5. As you mentioned, this individual has no interest in sneak attacking, so for her it's an excellent trade.



Originally Posted by Waker
To be a non-magical climber, your best bet is to either go Scout with the aforementioned ACF or Swordsage grabbing the Dance of the Spider stance from Shadow Hand.

The scout concept is definitely growing on me, although most of the class features--in particular skirmish, the backbone of the class--would be wasted on her. Still mulling this one over.


Originally Posted by THEChanger
*multifarious Dodge variants*

Thanks for those Dodge options, I hadn't even known about those. Desert Wind Dodge doesn't quite fit, though. Expeditious Dodge would ordinarily be a must-have if I go the scout route...except it would rely on the fast movement the scout gains at third level, which she'd be trading out for the wall-climbing ACF. Hmm.



Originally Posted by THEChanger
My favorite by far is Midnight Dodge though. Gives a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, all enemies, no questions asked.

This sounds decent on its own...but does it have any other benefits? I'm asking only because Luck of Heroes (Player's Guide to Faerûn p. 40) provides a +1 to AC and +1 to all saves as well, so it seems marginally better. --Luck of Heroes grants a luck bonus, however, so that might stack with Midnight Dodge. I don't know beans about Incarnum, can't say more than that.


Originally Posted by avr
In the Eberron Campaign Setting, Extreme Explorer is a PrC you might like to take a look at.

Thanks, very nice PrC under the right circumstances. This character probably wouldn't qualify for it, though, and since I don't use action points one of the main benefits would be lost.


Originally Posted by mangosta71
Wereleopard. Big bonus to climb, can always choose to take 10 on the check.

...thanks, but lycanthropy really doesn't fit the character concept here.

:smalltongue:



So, if I go with feat rogue, she'll have a total of nine feats in six levels, assuming a human bonus feat and one flaw. I suppose I could grit my teeth and take the Dodge/Mobility line, but the rooftop feats from Cityscape just don't thrill me that much.

Although they're comparatively weak, a couple of the feats from Player's Guide to Faerûn could be useful here. Treetopper (p. 46) gives a static bonus to Balance and Climb, but it also allows her to keep her Dex bonus to AC while climbing, which could be extremely helpful. There might be one or two other social feats (Cosmopolitan, Silver Palm, etc.) which might round her out as an urban rogue.

.

[Waker]

The scout concept is definitely growing on me, although most of the class features--in particular skirmish, the backbone of the class--would be wasted on her. Still mulling this one over.

Well, there are two replacements for Skirmish if it isn't to your liking.
Riposte (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) is one such option, allowing the character to be a bit more of a duelist. Not amazing, but an option.
There is also the Sniper acf from Dragon #346 that basically lets you make a ranged sneak attack at any range I believe. I would have to dig up the book to be positive.


This sounds decent on its own...but does it have any other benefits? I'm asking only because Luck of Heroes (Player's Guide to Faerûn p. 40) provides a +1 to AC and +1 to all saves as well, so it seems marginally better. --Luck of Heroes grants a luck bonus, however, so that might stack with Midnight Dodge. I don't know beans about Incarnum, can't say more than that.

The benefit of Midnight Dodge is that it counts as Dodge for the purposes of feat/class prereqs and that it's a bonus against all enemies, not just a single enemy. In addition, if you get more essentia from feats/class/race you can invest it to get more dodge. If you have no interest in Incarnum however, you can just take the feat and forever just say you invest your single point of essentia into it to gain a +1 Dodge.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Waker
Well, there are two replacements for Skirmish if it isn't to your liking. Riposte is one such option....

Thanks for the link, some of those are interesting. I agree, riposte isn't great, but it's decent and I much prefer it to skirmish.

Still not completely sold for this particular character, but I'm starting to like the scout.

:smalltongue:

.

[Flickerdart]

You can get one of the alternative Dodges (Expedient Dodge is my favourite) and Mobility off an armour enchantment, so you don't need to waste feats on either.

[Darrin]

The benefit of Midnight Dodge is that it counts as Dodge for the purposes of feat/class prereqs and that it's a bonus against all enemies, not just a single enemy.

Midnight Dodge still only works against one opponent. The mechanics of designating that opponent work the same as vanilla Dodge.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I normally prefer normal Dodge (or midnight dodge, but the difference rarely matters). Not because it's better than Expeditious Dodge on its own, but because ED doesn't make sense with some of the more fun tricks from Elusive Target (or with that awesome Truespeaking Monk martial arts thing, not that anyone uses it).




.
Is anyone else always let down when this isn't secret text? :p

[TuggyNE]

Is anyone else always let down when this isn't secret text? :p

Yeah, Palanan, dude, what's with the white periods? :smallconfused:

[Spuddles]

Jungle Goblins, from UA, have a climb speed.


Yeah, Palanan, dude, what's with the white periods? :smallconfused:

... there's a menstruation joke in there somewhere.