Emparawr
2013-05-23, 07:08 PM
Ok so here's the debate that my dm and I are having regarding the Aritificer class from Pathfinder.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer#TOC-Item-Creation
So we all know that magic item creation in pathfinder requires the proper Item Creation Feat, a sufficient Caster/Manifester level, a sufficient amount of gold, a certain amount of time, and a Spellcraft check made with a DC of 5+Caster Level and an additional 5 points added to the DC for any spell, allignment, racial, or other requirements, that are not met. This allows the construction of any kind of item but cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So that means no potions, no wands, no staffs.
That having been said we'll move onto the next part which is the Pathfinder Artificer's Item Creation ability. The ability as you can see reads as follows.
Item Creation
At second level, an artificer’s invention ability expands to include the creation of true magic items, even if the artificer does not have access to the prerequisite spells. The artificer must make a successful Craft check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. This ability does not stack with the Master Craftsman feat.
Example
To make a 1st-level wand of magic missile, an artificer would need a Craft check result of 21 or higher. To create a carpet of flying, (caster level 5th), he would need a check result of 25 or higher to emulate the overland flight prerequisite spell. The artificer must make a successful check for each prerequisite of the item.
The magic item creation guidelines are used, and for the purpose of emulating prerequisites, the artificer’s effective CL equals his class level +2. However, if the item duplicates a spell effect, the statistics of that effect use the artificer’s actual level.
Example 3
Access to a 3rd level spell usually requires a 5th level caster. Under these rules, an artificer could emulate fireball at 3rd level -- but the damage of a fireball coming from such an item would only be 3d6, rather than 5d6, since the artificer is only 3rd level. An artificer can also make Use Magic Device checks to emulate nonspell requirements, including alignment and race, as per the normal DCs for the skill. He cannot emulate skill or feat requirements, however, including item creation feat prerequisites.
So as we can see, the Artificers item creation ability allows the artificer to not only meet spell prerequisites by making a significantly high craft check for each individual spell prerequisite instead of having access to the corresponding spell list, but also allows the character to create potions, spell trigger, and spell completion items, by making craft checks to meet those prerequisites which you would normally not be able to do by simply increasing the spellcraft check DC like you can do when creating other items.
Now herein is where the debate begins. Although the entry does mention the artificer treating his class level +2 as his caster level for creating items, and just his class level as his caster level for the purposes of the strength of spell effects, what if a character already had caster levels/manifester levels from a completely different class, and also had item creation feats.
So for example a character with 2 levels of artificer and then 18 levels of a caster/manifester class. The character acquires item creation feats up to and including create wand. He also already meets Cl/ML requirements for creating the wand from his caster/manifester class levels. The only thing he doesnt meet is the spell requirements.
So in your opinions would the Item Creation Artificer Ability allow this character to make craft checks for the spell prerequisites for creating wands, since he already meets the item creation feat prereqs as well as the cl/ml prereqs? So for creating a wand he would make a craft check dc 20+cl, for the spell prereq, and then a Spellcraft check, dc 5+CL, for actually creating the item, and pay the cost and time for the creation of the item.
This is how I believe it functions. My DM however is concerned that the ability may ONLY be functional with the caster levels afforded by Artificer levels and not with caster levels afforded by any other class. Where as the way I see it is that you are using the Item Creation FEAT, to create the item, not the Artificers Item Creation class ability. You still have to have the feat to create items no matter what. So the Artificers Item Creation Class Ability simply affords an additional option to include in the item creation process.
And on that note. I am very anxious to hear all of your opinions so he and I can close out our debate on this, because if the consensus is that this doesnt work the way I think it does im going to have to do some serious changes on my character. Thank you in advance to all of you who took the time to read all of this.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer#TOC-Item-Creation
So we all know that magic item creation in pathfinder requires the proper Item Creation Feat, a sufficient Caster/Manifester level, a sufficient amount of gold, a certain amount of time, and a Spellcraft check made with a DC of 5+Caster Level and an additional 5 points added to the DC for any spell, allignment, racial, or other requirements, that are not met. This allows the construction of any kind of item but cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So that means no potions, no wands, no staffs.
That having been said we'll move onto the next part which is the Pathfinder Artificer's Item Creation ability. The ability as you can see reads as follows.
Item Creation
At second level, an artificer’s invention ability expands to include the creation of true magic items, even if the artificer does not have access to the prerequisite spells. The artificer must make a successful Craft check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. This ability does not stack with the Master Craftsman feat.
Example
To make a 1st-level wand of magic missile, an artificer would need a Craft check result of 21 or higher. To create a carpet of flying, (caster level 5th), he would need a check result of 25 or higher to emulate the overland flight prerequisite spell. The artificer must make a successful check for each prerequisite of the item.
The magic item creation guidelines are used, and for the purpose of emulating prerequisites, the artificer’s effective CL equals his class level +2. However, if the item duplicates a spell effect, the statistics of that effect use the artificer’s actual level.
Example 3
Access to a 3rd level spell usually requires a 5th level caster. Under these rules, an artificer could emulate fireball at 3rd level -- but the damage of a fireball coming from such an item would only be 3d6, rather than 5d6, since the artificer is only 3rd level. An artificer can also make Use Magic Device checks to emulate nonspell requirements, including alignment and race, as per the normal DCs for the skill. He cannot emulate skill or feat requirements, however, including item creation feat prerequisites.
So as we can see, the Artificers item creation ability allows the artificer to not only meet spell prerequisites by making a significantly high craft check for each individual spell prerequisite instead of having access to the corresponding spell list, but also allows the character to create potions, spell trigger, and spell completion items, by making craft checks to meet those prerequisites which you would normally not be able to do by simply increasing the spellcraft check DC like you can do when creating other items.
Now herein is where the debate begins. Although the entry does mention the artificer treating his class level +2 as his caster level for creating items, and just his class level as his caster level for the purposes of the strength of spell effects, what if a character already had caster levels/manifester levels from a completely different class, and also had item creation feats.
So for example a character with 2 levels of artificer and then 18 levels of a caster/manifester class. The character acquires item creation feats up to and including create wand. He also already meets Cl/ML requirements for creating the wand from his caster/manifester class levels. The only thing he doesnt meet is the spell requirements.
So in your opinions would the Item Creation Artificer Ability allow this character to make craft checks for the spell prerequisites for creating wands, since he already meets the item creation feat prereqs as well as the cl/ml prereqs? So for creating a wand he would make a craft check dc 20+cl, for the spell prereq, and then a Spellcraft check, dc 5+CL, for actually creating the item, and pay the cost and time for the creation of the item.
This is how I believe it functions. My DM however is concerned that the ability may ONLY be functional with the caster levels afforded by Artificer levels and not with caster levels afforded by any other class. Where as the way I see it is that you are using the Item Creation FEAT, to create the item, not the Artificers Item Creation class ability. You still have to have the feat to create items no matter what. So the Artificers Item Creation Class Ability simply affords an additional option to include in the item creation process.
And on that note. I am very anxious to hear all of your opinions so he and I can close out our debate on this, because if the consensus is that this doesnt work the way I think it does im going to have to do some serious changes on my character. Thank you in advance to all of you who took the time to read all of this.