The perfect class (3.5)

[Eslin]

Say you had a class with d12HD, full BAB, all 3 high saves, 8+int skills a level, proficient in all equipment, any skill on its list and a free feat every level.

How does it stack up? How would it compare to a warblade, a binder or a dread necromancer?

[JoshuaZ]

Say you had a class with d12HD, full BAB, all 3 high saves, 8+int skills a level, proficient in all equipment, any skill on its list and a free feat every level.

How does it stack up? How would it compare to a warblade, a binder or a dread necromancer?

It would probably be T4 or T3. A lot would depend on what feats one choose, with some combinations being potentially broken, but it would still lack a lot of out of combat options. It will be at least as good as the rogue for most purposes, so it can't be below T4. But it seems highly doubtful it would meet T3's criterion of "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

[Psyren]

A free feat from what list? And would prereqs matter?

A free Incarnum feat every level could get it to T3 for instance.

[Endarire]

If this class has no notable class features, it's about tier 4. It can do a variety of things, but none especially well. It's basically a hardier Rogue.

[tyckspoon]

Unrestricted feat choice would be a T3, largely on the back of things like Shape Soulmeld, Bind Vestige, and Martial Study- there are enough feats that grant access to T3 quality abilities that you can actually make a T3 character by sheer weight of feat. If the choice is restricted (perhaps you can't select anything that gives a Supernatural or Spell-Like ability) then probably a broken Tier 4; strictly superior to any other Tier 4 and distinctly overpowered, but lacking the kinds of qualities required to actually exit that tier.

[Immabozo]

It would probably be T4 or T3. A lot would depend on what feats one choose, with some combinations being potentially broken, but it would still lack a lot of out of combat options. It will be at least as good as the rogue for most purposes, so it can't be below T4. But it seems highly doubtful it would meet T3's criterion of "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

I disagree. Full BAB, D12, a huge amount of feats, good saves and proficient with all weapons and armor make him a great tank. 8+Int skills with all skills are class skills means he can also be a skill monkey. He can totally be a valid social face with diplomacy, sense motive, gather info, etc. I'd say probably T3, just behind ToB. Although feats could be used for ToB feats and starts getting more useful.

[Mithril Leaf]

It is something that I would distinctly consider playing, and I have difficulty bringing myself to reasonable levels of cheese. Therefore, my gut is Tier 3 for someone with decent system mastery. With none, it's a moderate Tier 4.

[TuggyNE]

I have difficulty bringing myself to reasonable levels of cheese.

Really now. :smallamused: This from the guy with psionic minor creation poison-spamming in his sig. :smalltongue:

[Eslin]

So, would people advise for or against including it in my game? (current players are a wizard, ardent, factotum, bard and fighter)

It occurs to me people are focusing mostly on the feat thing - if I kept the one feat every level thing but reduced some of the stats (or let the players choose which stats they wanted, have a certain amount of points to spend on BAB, HD size, skills/level etc) would it make a viable class? Or should I leave the high everything in?

[Der_DWSage]

So, would people advise for or against including it in my game? (current players are a wizard, ardent, factotum, bard and fighter)

It occurs to me people are focusing mostly on the feat thing - if I kept the one feat every level thing but reduced some of the stats (or let the players choose which stats they wanted, have a certain amount of points to spend on BAB, HD size, skills/level etc) would it make a viable class? Or should I leave the high everything in?

Oof. With that bit of context in there, I'd like to point out some things.

1)You're definitely stepping on the Fighter's toes with this. The Fighter's entire thing is that they're a feat-heavy class, and it's not even a particularly great niche for them. I'd recommend something else, like a Cleric or Druid. You seem to be lacking in the Divine side of spellcasting in the party, and this would let you be competent without stepping on the Fighter's case so severely.

And to make this clear-it's not that you'd be more powerful than the Fighter. (Heck, the Druid can manage that with his animal companion alone.) It's that you're invading the Fighter's niche of being a featmonkey, and doing it in a way that's almost insulting.

2)The chassis is solid, but ALL of its power comes from feats. It could be a D4, 1/2 BAB, only-good-save-is-Reflex-with-no-Evasion class and the only thing that would change is that you'd move farther from martial feats, and more towards skillmonkey ones, or ones that work regardless of your individual stats. I'm sure someone with more spare time could find a ridiculous build by 3rd level that would work even with those restrictions.

If you're that hard for feats and skill points, ask the GM if you (And the other Fighter, because if you're doing this, he needs a bone thrown as well, or let him play a Generic Fighter from the UA.) can play a gestalt Fighter/Expert-it's not like it unbalances the game to throw the Fighter some skill points, and at least this way, you're not completely overshadowing the other Fighter if you simply build in different directions-say, letting him be the sword-and-board type of Fighter, while you be the screaming greatsword user. Or vice versa.

[DMVerdandi]

You could keep it as 1 feat per level, OR, you could give them chameleon-esque feats for 1 every two levels.

I'd call it the savant. And make it a variant of the factotum. When there are two classes that overlap due to fluff, that simply means you should make it a variant of the one that came first.

[Ashtagon]

Say you had a class with d12HD, full BAB, all 3 high saves, 8+int skills a level, proficient in all equipment, any skill on its list and a free feat every level.

How does it stack up? How would it compare to a warblade, a binder or a dread necromancer?

Does it have a familiar?

[Eslin]

Does it have a familiar?

No, that's why it's so weak.

[Eslin]

Oof. With that bit of context in there, I'd like to point out some things.

1)You're definitely stepping on the Fighter's toes with this. The Fighter's entire thing is that they're a feat-heavy class, and it's not even a particularly great niche for them. I'd recommend something else, like a Cleric or Druid. You seem to be lacking in the Divine side of spellcasting in the party, and this would let you be competent without stepping on the Fighter's case so severely.

And to make this clear-it's not that you'd be more powerful than the Fighter. (Heck, the Druid can manage that with his animal companion alone.) It's that you're invading the Fighter's niche of being a featmonkey, and doing it in a way that's almost insulting.

2)The chassis is solid, but ALL of its power comes from feats. It could be a D4, 1/2 BAB, only-good-save-is-Reflex-with-no-Evasion class and the only thing that would change is that you'd move farther from martial feats, and more towards skillmonkey ones, or ones that work regardless of your individual stats. I'm sure someone with more spare time could find a ridiculous build by 3rd level that would work even with those restrictions.

If you're that hard for feats and skill points, ask the GM if you (And the other Fighter, because if you're doing this, he needs a bone thrown as well, or let him play a Generic Fighter from the UA.) can play a gestalt Fighter/Expert-it's not like it unbalances the game to throw the Fighter some skill points, and at least this way, you're not completely overshadowing the other Fighter if you simply build in different directions-say, letting him be the sword-and-board type of Fighter, while you be the screaming greatsword user. Or vice versa.

Again, I am the DM.

And I don't care about stepping on a fighter's toes, he's fed up with hitting things with a stick over and over while everyone else gets actual options - he's thinking crusader for the reroll. Besides, warblades are everything fighters should have been, in general no-one cares if the fighter's feelings get hurt

[Psyren]

And I don't care about stepping on a fighter's toes, he's fed up with hitting things with a stick over and over while everyone else gets actual options - he's thinking crusader for the reroll. Besides, warblades are everything fighters should have been, in general no-one cares if the fighter's feelings get hurt

I think he meant, not the fighter class, but overshadowing the guy who is playing fighter. If he rerolls ToB as you say he will that shouldn't be a problem.

As for your proposed class it is fine with everything you laid out. I focused on the feats because you still haven't answered the question (i.e. can it access any feats in the game, instead of a specific subclass like "fighter feats" or "psionic feats.") With the former, as others have said, he can cobble together a T3 class just fine via Incarnum, Martial Study and/or vestiges.

[Der_DWSage]

Again, I am the DM.

And I don't care about stepping on a fighter's toes, he's fed up with hitting things with a stick over and over while everyone else gets actual options - he's thinking crusader for the reroll. Besides, warblades are everything fighters should have been, in general no-one cares if the fighter's feelings get hurt

If he re-rolls? Then yes, that's not an issue at all. If he doesn't? Well...

It's rather like if you have two players. One's a Rogue, and the other is a Rogue PLUS he has full BAB, an extra feat every other level, bonus to all his skills equal to his class level, and is in every way conceivable a better Rogue than the first player.

The first player is gonna feel a little gypped.

[Eslin]

Yeah, any feats. Be a bit silly to restrict them

[Malroth]

the Perfect class is wizard.

[ahenobarbi]

Eh? we had thread like that a short while ago, I'll look it up in a moment.

EDIT: Two months ago, so not a short while :smallconfused: here ya go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275057).

Basically it's Tier 1 because of the feat chain that grants full-spellcasting.


the Perfect class is wizard.

Depends on you definition of "perfect". Personally I dislike prepared spellcasters because they are to much brother in-game.

[Killer Angel]

No, that's why it's so weak.

Ah, it sacrifices power for flavor! :smallbiggrin:

it was a joke on lightining warrior, right?

[EternalMelon]

Personally I dislike prepared spellcasters because they are to much brother in-game.

"Hello mage-fellow, I am Strong-Arm Generic-name, and i will be-"
"No effing way! I'm Long-beard the Long-bearded wizard! I'm your brother!"
"Uh... no your not?
"Calm down you two, now the four of you are aproched by a shadowy looking fellow-"
"Who is my brother"
"Err... right... and he starts to ask you what you know about the king-"
"THE KINGS MY BROTHER TOO!"
"Be quiet dude."
"Dudes my brother!"
"Jokes not funny anymore-"
"NO JOKES. ONLY BROTHERS!"
Sorry 'bout the lame joke about a typo, I'll see myself out. Although i kinda wanna roll-up frat wizard for a game now.

[ahenobarbi]

"Hello mage-fellow, I am Strong-Arm Generic-name, and i will be-"
"No effing way! I'm Long-beard the Long-bearded wizard! I'm your brother!"
"Uh... no your not?
"Calm down you two, now the four of you are aproched by a shadowy looking fellow-"
"Who is my brother"
"Err... right... and he starts to ask you what you know about the king-"
"THE KINGS MY BROTHER TOO!"
"Be quiet dude."
"Dudes my brother!"
"Jokes not funny anymore-"
"NO JOKES. ONLY BROTHERS!"
Sorry 'bout the lame joke about a typo, I'll see myself out. Although i kinda wanna roll-up frat wizard for a game now.

:smallbiggrin: