Why is Dweomerkeeper Cheesy?

[Os1ris09]

Just like the title states. Is it because of the Metamagic reduction that you get at 10th lvl? Is it because you get 5 spells that you can cast spontaneously?

I don't see why it is great because you only get to advance of the casting classes and the -1 adjustment to metamagic isn't that much since you can't reduce any to +0 adjustment

[ahenobarbi]

Because it lets you transform spells to Supernatural abilities, which means they don't have components any more (like XP or diamonds) and are much harder to get rid of (dispel magic won't work, counter spelling won't work).

[eggynack]

I think it has to do with supernatural spell in addition to the things you mentioned. It can be used to some pretty crazy effects, like removing the material components from a spell that was using that as a balancing factor, to bypassing spell resistance on a spell that you want to get through. I think that dweomerkeeper actually can reduce to 0; you just need a second effect that has that capacity. Applying arcane thesis and dweomerkeeper to a +2 metamagic'd spell would get you to +0 for example.

[Psyren]

Two words: supernatural spell. That means no AoO, no SR, and above all no components (i.e. free Wish/Miracle/Gate etc.)

On top of that, it's full casting, and the other class features aren't shabby either. Mantle of Spells lets you get as many domain slots as you want - simply put the domain slots in your "mantle" and you can convert non-domain spells into them. Arcane Sight at will is invaluable for all kinds of things, such as detecting magical traps. And finally, the metamagic adjustment - cake compared to the first two abilities I mentioned, but anything that makes metamagic cheaper is powerful, especially when there are no restrictions attached.

[Eslin]

Supernatural wishes for everyone!

Turn yourself into a sarrukh, now not dispellable in any way!

Four simulacra a day! Wear dark sunglasses, refer to people you don't like as Mr. Anderson

Permanency teleportation circles everywhere! If you're good, use it to make long distance travel free and instant! If evil, use it to link aboleth lairs with ponds! If neutral, use it to teleport critters from one side of the road to the other so they don't get run over!

Supernatural meteor swarms, for completely wasted arcane potential!

[TuggyNE]

The actual answer has already been given (several times), so I'm just gonna comment on this amusing remark:
Supernatural meteor swarms, for completely wasted arcane potential!

That's probably the best of those.

Well, that or Su Heightened-to-9th prestidigitation, for maximal redundancy.

[Tvtyrant]

It also lets you do some really cool stuff that would be impossible otherwise. I used to have a Gnome Dweomerkeeper who ran around making permanent animated magic items and then abandoning them to do random tasks. He built a taxi service for a city that way, and a house filled with "trick candles" that ran away when you lit them.

[Os1ris09]

SO... since everyone pointed out Supernatural Ability and in the text it reads doesn't require components does that include XP as well (I'm assuming so).

Also, what would be better to use it with? A Wizard or Cleric?

[ahenobarbi]

Wizard. Because wizard has access to wish. And cost-free wish means you can create magic items for free. Without worrying about costs. Not that you need to do this more than once - your first wish should be for at-will wish item :smallwink:

[lord_khaine]

Wizard. Because wizard has access to wish. And cost-free wish means you can create magic items for free. Without worrying about costs. Not that you need to do this more than once - your first wish should be for at-will wish item

And that wish is more likely to turn yourself into an animated vending machine than anything else :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

Archivist. You have both wish and miracle. Miracle is better than Wish. Archivist gets Wish through Domains and through the ability to have a Hexer get Arcane Spells on Divine List (which can be changed by your Su, XP free miracle to recreatr the effect of Psychic Reformation).

[ahenobarbi]

Miracle is better than Wish.

How so? "safe" list of things you can do is better with Wish.

You're right about Archivist (if there is divine Wish).

[tyckspoon]

Archivist. You have both wish and miracle. Miracle is better than Wish. Archivist gets Wish through Domains and through the ability to have a Hexer get Arcane Spells on Divine List (which can be changed by your Su, XP free miracle to recreatr the effect of Psychic Reformation).

Miracle is better than Wish when you are comparing both of them cast normally, largely because of Wish's high XP cost; you can use Miracle for everyday applications in situations where Wish would not justify spending 5k XP. But Wish is the more powerful spell, and is much better used when you have a way of cheesing around the XP.

[Os1ris09]

Are there any ways to reduce the Metamagic Cost to +0? So I can do Silent and Still Spells for free

[ahenobarbi]

Are there any ways to reduce the Metamagic Cost to +0? So I can do Silent and Still Spells for free

Arcane Thesis. Incantantrix 10.

[sreservoir]

Arcane Thesis. Incantantrix 10.

incantatrix 10 alone doesn't do it, either.

[Emperor Tippy]

Are there any ways to reduce the Metamagic Cost to +0? So I can do Silent and Still Spells for free

Arcane Thesis alone would do it.

Silent and Still are both +1 meta so Arcane Thesis reduces each to +0 for the spell you have AT for.

Sanctum Spell let's you get one of them for free and then can be applied to every spell you have.

Rod of Still/Silent is also a possibility.

[Vknight]

And that wish is more likely to turn yourself into an animated vending machine than anything else :smalltongue:

Its within the safe zone for wish on gold cost so nope

[Psyren]

How so? "safe" list of things you can do is better with Wish.

Wish always has an XP cost, even with the safe list. Miracle meanwhile is effectively "Superior Anyspell."

[eggynack]

Wish always has an XP cost, even with the safe list. Miracle meanwhile is effectively "Superior Anyspell."
Yeah, except we're casting it as a supernatural spell. I dunno why he wants a wish vending machine, given that it's trivial to get a whole bunch of wishes. At the very least, he can cast them for free based on the number of supernatural spells he has.

[Jack_Simth]

Miracle is better than Wish when you are comparing both of them cast normally, largely because of Wish's high XP cost; you can use Miracle for everyday applications in situations where Wish would not justify spending 5k XP. But Wish is the more powerful spell, and is much better used when you have a way of cheesing around the XP.
Kind of. Miracle is better at spell duplication - any 7th level or lower (8th for Cleric spells) vs. Wish which says any 6th level or lower (8th for Sor/Wiz spells)... as long as it's not a prohibited school. So the Wizard can't get 7th level Druid spells or 7th level Cleric spells, the Cleric can get 7th level Wizard spells.

For the non-duplication effects, it's fuzzier.
Both have what amounts to a greater effects clause... but Miracle will simply be refused in the extreme case, where Wish will go horribly wrong. Miracle is subject to the will of your deity, Wish is limited to your own power.

Wish does have more specific non-duplication options, however.


Its within the safe zone for wish on gold cost so nope
Other than the slight issue that you're trying to treat the custom magic item guidelines as rules when making the item of infinite wishes.

[Clistenes]

Wait...Mantle of Spells itself is Supernatural, but do the spells really become Supernatural Effects? The text just says that you can Spontaneously Cast the chosen spell...not that the spell becomes a Supernatural Effect.

The text says that it's similar to the Signature Spell feat, but neither the Signature Spell nor the Spell Mastery say that those spells become Supernatural Effects.

[eggynack]

Wait...Mantle of Spells itself is Supernatural, but do the spells really become Supernatural Effects? The text just says that you can Spontaneously Cast the chosen spell...not that the spell becomes a Supernatural Effect.

The text says that it's similar to the Signature Spell feat, but neither the Signature Spell nor the Spell Mastery say that those spells become Supernatural Effects.
What? No. The supernatural spell ability. It lets you cast a spell as a supernatural ability. You get it at level 4, and one more use per day at every subsequent even level.

[Clistenes]

What? No. The supernatural spell ability. It lets you cast a spell as a supernatural ability. You get it at level 4, and one more use per day at every subsequent even level.

What sourcebook is that? I think we may be speaking a different prestige class.

[The_Snark]

Wait...Mantle of Spells itself is Supernatural, but do the spells really become Supernatural Effects? The text just says that you can Spontaneously Cast the chosen spell...not that the spell becomes a Supernatural Effect.

The text says that it's similar to the Signature Spell feat, but neither the Signature Spell nor the Spell Mastery say that those spells become Supernatural Effects.

It's not Mantle of Spells that provides the effect; it's the Supernatural Spell class feature. I'm not seeing the wording you mention, so you might be looking at the old 3.0 version of the class - there was an update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) for 3.5 released online.

[Clistenes]

It's not Mantle of Spells that provides the effect; it's the Supernatural Spell class feature. I'm not seeing the wording you mention, so you might be looking at the old 3.0 version of the class - there was an update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) for 3.5 released online.

Thank you. I had read that once, but I forgot about it.

Dude, talk about cheese. What were they thinking? A PrC that grants unlimited wealth at level 4. Even a Cleric 1/Wizard 13/Dweomerkeeper 4 can make 9,125,000 gp per year without coming out of his home (of course, I'm assuming no DM would allow a Dweomerkeeper's player to use Wish to create magic items without paying the X).

Use the old Sha'ir, and he can do the same while being a Cleric 1/Sha'ir 4/Dweomerkeeper 4. Almost 10 millions per year at character level 9.:smalleek:

EDIT: On a second thought, a Sha'ir couldn't do it, since they don't "know" their spells. But it's still cheesy: 9,125,000 is ten times as much as the value of the equipment of a 21-level character and more than twice the wealth of a 31-level character. Per year. Without doing a thing but casting Wish every day.

[Os1ris09]

So while I love the theoretical discussions that have occurred in my thread are there any other ways besides those stated above that reduce Metamagic Costs that aren't items?

Also can anyone reference me to a wizard handbook other than these two links I'm providing?


LINKS
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88715
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

[Jack_Simth]

So while I love the theoretical discussions that have occurred in my thread are there any other ways besides those stated above that reduce Metamagic Costs that aren't items?
Let's see... there's a couple of PrC features that apply specific metamagic for free to certain types of spells, Divine Metamagic lets you spend turning attempts to apply metamagic for free, he 3.0 spelldancer PrC lets you trade turns dancing for metamagic levels, Incantantatrix has been mentioned, Dweomerkeeper has been mentioned, the Improved Metamagic Feat reduces things...

[eggynack]

Here is a handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=972.0) on the topic. There's a whole section about metamagic cost reduction for your general edification. The guide also obviously has a part about metamagic feats, so you can come up with better things to use the reduction on.

[TypoNinja]

Wizard. Because wizard has access to wish. And cost-free wish means you can create magic items for free. Without worrying about costs. Not that you need to do this more than once - your first wish should be for at-will wish item :smallwink:

There is no way in hell that an at-will wish item is remotely in the "safe" wish range.

For a start, at spell level X caster level X 2000 GP base were already at 306k Oops, Our item is Epic. We passed the magic 200k threshold. You need Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. Which means now were trying to duplicate Epic effects.

But that's not all, we need to pay 50x the XP cost in creation, translated to GP that gives us another 5000x50 or 250k GP. But wait, when wish creates a magic item you pay 5000+twice the normal XP. So thats 10k +5k XP, or 15000x50x5 GP in XP costs.

Our at will wish item is the equivalent of about 4 million GP, and I haven't even added in the unlimited uses per day multiplier. That would bring us up to 80mil, just in case you were curious. we could bring the price down under 4 mil if we took 4 or less charges a day. You couldn't even wish for a 1/day wish item, that's still 800 grand and the most expensive "safe" effects from a wish are around 25-30k.

[Elderand]

other PRC that offer metamagic reduction

incantatrix
halruaan elder
metaphysical spellshaper (but given the book it's in, don't even suggest it)
anima mage
ultimate magus
mind mage from dragon 313

altough, out of all those methods, the biggest one would be a feat from dragonlance age of mortal.

Undead battery : drain undead of hd and for every hd you drain you can lower the cost of a metamagic feat by one up to your charisma modifier per spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

There is no way in hell that an at-will wish item is remotely in the "safe" wish range.
Actually per RAW it entirely is.


For a start, at spell level X caster level X 2000 GP base were already at 306k Oops, Our item is Epic. We passed the magic 200k threshold. You need Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. Which means now were trying to duplicate Epic effects.
Irreelvant. It's a magic item. Wish can safely produce magic items with no limit.


But that's not all, we need to pay 50x the XP cost in creation, translated to GP that gives us another 5000x50 or 250k GP. But wait, when wish creates a magic item you pay 5000+twice the normal XP. So thats 10k +5k XP, or 15000x50x5 GP in XP costs.
Which doesn't matter.


Our at will wish item is the equivalent of about 4 million GP, and I haven't even added in the unlimited uses per day multiplier. That would bring us up to 80mil, just in case you were curious. we could bring the price down under 4 mil if we took 4 or less charges a day. You couldn't even wish for a 1/day wish item, that's still 800 grand and the most expensive "safe" effects from a wish are around 25-30k.

Um no. You can safely Wish for a magic item regardless of the magic items gold piece value. It's right there in the rules. The 25K limit only applies to non magical items (which is why you might want to wish for a hundred cubic feet of gold that is enchanted to cast Bless on whoever touches it and then just whack it with a Disjunction to strip off that effect).

[Jack_Simth]

There is no way in hell that an at-will wish item is remotely in the "safe" wish range.

It bizarrely is. It's a separate clause...


For a start, at spell level X caster level X 2000 GP base were already at 306k Oops, Our item is Epic. We passed the magic 200k threshold. You need Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. Which means now were trying to duplicate Epic effects.
Still technically a magic item, though. Oh yes, and you're probably looking for command-word, which is an 1800 gp base, but that's just picking nits.


But that's not all, we need to pay 50x the XP cost in creation, translated to GP that gives us another 5000x50 or 250k GP. But wait, when wish creates a magic item you pay 5000+twice the normal XP. So thats 10k +5k XP, or 15000x50x5 GP in XP costs.

100x, actually, before the double-penalty from Wish. No limit on use means 100x the components. But again, this is just picking nits. It's largely irrelevant, though, as the context is that someone is cheating around the XP cost - in this case, Supernatural Spell - and the only place where the extra XP is listed is part of the XP component line... which is gone as a supernatural ability. Rendering the specfic XP costs moot.


Our at will wish item is the equivalent of about 4 million GP, and I haven't even added in the unlimited uses per day multiplier. That would bring us up to 80mil, just in case you were curious. we could bring the price down under 4 mil if we took 4 or less charges a day. You couldn't even wish for a 1/day wish item, that's still 800 grand and the most expensive "safe" effects from a wish are around 25-30k.
Actually, where you should be looking is that the section where people get the pricing for these from is:
1) Very explicitly guidelines, not rules.
2) In the DMG, not the PHB, and are intended for the DM's world building more than player use.

So really, if you want to attack this bit of cheese, as the DM, you simply say that such an item is not magically feasible, and can't be created. When someone tries to Wish it up, well, it just plain doesn't work.


Um no. You can safely Wish for a magic item regardless of the magic items gold piece value. It's right there in the rules. The 35K limit only applies to non magical items (which is why you might want to wish for a hundred cubic feet of gold that is enchanted to cast Bless on whoever touches it and then just whack it with a Disjunction to strip off that effect).

25k, not 35k.

[TypoNinja]

Holy ****. They took out the limit. In 3.0 there was an expressed limit to the value of the magic item you could wish for, there is not in 3.5

Excuse me while I cross post to the dysfunctional rules thread.

[Alleran]

You can safely Wish for a magic item regardless of the magic items gold piece value. It's right there in the rules. The 35K limit only applies to non magical items (which is why you might want to wish for a hundred cubic feet of gold that is enchanted to cast Bless on whoever touches it and then just whack it with a Disjunction to strip off that effect).
It's 25K for non magical items, actually.

[Emperor Tippy]

25k, not 35k.

It's 25K for non magical items, actually.

I know, I mistyped.