A couple of Artificer questions...

[unseenmage]

I'm trying to make a list of what items I'll aim for making at what levels and I've hit some snags.

First, are specific magic item CL listings prerequisites or not?
I've read several arguments this morning that explain it both ways. I was leaning towards not and then I found a line that said the Artificer treats CL listings as prerequisites because of something in ECS.

Second, am I crazy to wonder if there's a CL requirement on weapon and armor pluses? (+1 sword/shield etc) Everything else seems to have one. (Speaking of, I've read conflicting reports as to the min CL for Intelligent magic items too from none to 'in the teens'...)

Third, can another character supply the skill/feat prerequisites for item creation? Was thinking I'd do some Gather Info checks to find someone with the requisite feat/skill and pay them nicely for their attendance during the item creation and imbue THEIR cool feat or utilize THEIR sweet skill bonus in the creation. Can this work?
Edit: Specifically I'm asking if I can put someone elses feat into a magic item I'm making.

And lastly, any suggestions as to how to advise my DM about my character's access to "rare" or even extraplanar materials? I'm at 9th level and the game is high powered Faerun Gestalt so I'm not even sure if this SHOULD be an issue.
What reasoning/checks/magic-mart homebrews do you guys use for this quandry?

At this point I'm quite frustrated so please please list the book and page number for your explanations when possible, thanks.

Thanks regardless playgrounders.

[Waker]

First, are specific magic item CL listings prerequisites or not?
I've read several arguments this morning that explain it both ways. I was leaning towards not and then I found a line that said the Artificer treats CL listings as prerequisites because of something in ECS.
If you are asking about the Caster Level in the description of a magic item, that is the minimum caster level required in order to craft that item. An Artificer's Caster level for the purposes of crafting items is Artificer Level +2. (pg32, Eberron Campaign Setting)


Second, am I crazy to wonder if there's a CL requirement on weapon and armor pluses? (+1 sword/shield etc) Everything else seems to have one. (Speaking of, I've read conflicting reports as to the min CL for Intelligent magic items too from none to 'in the teens'...)

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.


Third, can another character supply the skill/feat prerequisites for item creation? Was thinking I'd do some Gather Info checks to find someone with the requisite feat/skill and pay them nicely for their attendance during the item creation and imbue THEIR cool feat or utilize THEIR sweet skill bonus in the creation. Can this work?
Characters can help with crafting an item by supplying the spells required, but the crafter needs to have the feats.


And lastly, any suggestions as to how to advise my DM about my character's access to "rare" or even extraplanar materials? I'm at 9th level and the game is high powered Faerun Gestalt so I'm not even sure if this SHOULD be an issue.
What reasoning/checks/magic-mart homebrews do you guys use for this quandry?
Do you mean trying to explain to your DM how you get access to your crafting materials? That would probably require a field-trip to find the materials yourself, establishing contacts to get them for you or finding a merchant who happens to deal with the materials in question.

[unseenmage]

An Artificer's Caster level for the purposes of crafting items is Artificer Level +2. (pg32, Eberron Campaign Setting)

It was my understanding that the Artificer's CL boost only applied to the spells required for making a magic item.


If you are asking about the Caster Level in the description of a magic item, that is the minimum caster level required in order to craft that item.

Yes, I am asking about the listed CL in the description of an item.
The problem is that that CL IS NOT listed as a prerequisite. I've read that this persists in many places including, but not limited to, the MIC where CL and prerequisites are separated by much more than that meaningful but tiny semicolon you find between them in the usual magic item description.

I've also seen quotes this morning clearly showing the rules for the two as separate paragraphs of text. However I've read reference to errata that says otherwise.

I suppose my main question is are they prerequisites specifically for the Artificer just to keep him from using his +2 CL to make things outside his power bracket?

[swankjon]

Me and my DM ruled that the CL of an item exists solely for things like dispel magic where there is an opposed CL check against the item itself.

If you consider the CL's requirements you get into a LOT of items in the books being way out of reach considering what spells they require to craft.

[swankjon]

Also, artificer CAN make things outside of his power bracket, thats why the class is so strong.

Remember that your ability to craft is your classes main class feature, why should you do it on an even playing field? :smallwink:

[Deophaun]

First, are specific magic item CL listings prerequisites or not? I've read several arguments this morning that explain it both ways.
Let's read the DMG's explanation:

For other [non-scroll] magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[thriceborn]

Let's read the DMG's explanation:

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Better yes, lets read the Errata for the DMG, which changes that to the following. "Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide,page 215
Problem:The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution:Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. "

[unseenmage]

Quote:
Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
First, are specific magic item CL listings prerequisites or not? I've read several arguments this morning that explain it both ways.
Let's read the DMG's explanation:
Quote:
For other [non-scroll] magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
Seems pretty clear cut to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
Let's read the DMG's explanation:

Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Better yes, lets read the Errata for the DMG, which changes that to the following. "Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide,page 215
Problem:The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution:Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. "


See! And THAT'S the argument back-and-forth that had me stumped till I was swayed to the side of the errata.

Then someone said that there was info in the Eberron Campaign Setting that specifically called out that the Artificer used that CL listing on magic items as a prerequisite.

But I can't for the life of me find that info even though the info was from a source who'd won my admiration for their clarity up to that point.

[Madcrafter]

As far as I know there is no such passage, and I've never heard of anyone referencing it. Caster level is not a requirement for artificers or anyone.

As for using skills/feats of others; it's completely possible for other people to supply these. You just have to have the item creation feat. (They can have it instead, but then they are the ones who have to pay the XP, so you are basically just buying it then).

[Talya]

Yeah, the CL of an item is not there as a prerequisite. There are some very inexpensive low level items that have CLs in the stratosphere.

[unseenmage]

As for using skills/feats of others; it's completely possible for other people to supply these. You just have to have the item creation feat. (They can have it instead, but then they are the ones who have to pay the XP, so you are basically just buying it then).

That's what I thought I remembered. it's just been a long long time since I dabbled in item creation. Things are still being relearned.

Wish I could remember where that rule was though. I want the feat bit for a public works project.

Building a temple to Gond in the style of the Chapels of The Nine in Oblivion. The main altar will be a Wondrous Architecture forge with the three Artisan Craftsman (Dragon 358) feats in it.
Around the perimeter on the ground floor and on a balcony above will be a crafting station (or stronghold space, not sure yet) for each craft skill.
All of the craft stations and the forge are meant to be viewed from the great ornately carved stone pews.
The pews will have Distilled Joy plus Elation traps set on them making Ambrosia free for use at the craft stations/forge.
Figure I'll even put a little basic library underneath full of obscure craft knowledge. (care to learn 'craft - body modification' anyone?)

[Madcrafter]

If you're looking for specific references, I know it's on page 232 of the MIC in the second paragraph under "Creating Magic Items". That section says it is just reiterating what is said in the PHB and DMG though, so I'd guess it'd be in there.

EDIT: Hey what do you know, it's in the DMG on page 282 in the second paragraph under "Creating Magic Items". Despite the MIC saying it was only going over the basics, it's actually more detailed on that particular point than the DMG.

[unseenmage]

If you're looking for specific references, I know it's on page 232 of the MIC in the second paragraph under "Creating Magic Items". That section says it is just reiterating what is said in the PHB and DMG though, so I'd guess it'd be in there.

EDIT: Hey what do you know, it's in the DMG on page 282 in the second paragraph under "Creating Magic Items". Despite the MIC saying it was only going over the basics, it's actually more detailed on that particular point than the DMG.

Excellent! Thank you greatly Madcrafter. You seem true to your name at the very least. :)

With that in mind a Hordificer building intelligent constructs as feat repositories and charging other artificer's for their assistance could be an interesting subplot in an urban environment.
Though a psionic artificer using Psychic Reformation to reupload different feats into his homunculus would be more breakable.

Thanks again all, though I am still a bit fuzzy on the Cl requirement for the various types of Intelligent Magic Items...