Help me build a race of batwing people!

[iwantmyjetpack]

(This post will be edited frequently. Sorry for the messy format, the finished product will be posted up here, and to standard. Text in red is stuff that can be altered or changed.)

And as usual, a good idea runs away with my common sense, comes back, hogties me, and carries me off.

They look like this:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/147/d/7/battle_succubus_by_shabazik-d517jqq.png

And this.

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/328/3/9/battle_succubus_novice_by_shabazik-d5ly7kr.png

Edited as of 6/4/13. I'm shooting for LA 1+. First time doing this, so feedback is helpful.

Winged People
Humanoid (Winged People) (Better name required)


This info is out of date. The most recent is on the last page.

Medium: As Medium creatures, Winged People have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged People base land speed is 30 feet.
Winged People have a Fly speed is 60 feet, and Average Maneuverability. (May take Good Maneuverability as a feat)
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged People are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. The Winged People have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Gets one extra feat at first level.
Skilled: Gets 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do.
Gliding (Subset of flying, not a feat): Winged People can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Winged People glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a Winged People's maneuverability improves, they can't hover while gliding. Winged People can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a Winged People becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged People descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall. (This is the equivalent of crawling to walking)
Natural Tumbler/Spotter/Flyer: Winged People take no cross class penalties when investing in these skills.
Hollow Leg: Winged People eat three times as much as a human. Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed.(This is a disadvantage)
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any, but no secret languages.
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1


So its a Human with wings, that takes no penalties to cross class skills, and will eat you out of your house.

The latest stable version will be posted here. Most recent ideas will be posted as you read down. Feedback Welcome.

[Scots Dragon]

As a starting point, I'd use a strix (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-strix) from Pathfinder.

[Pesimismrocks]

As a general rule fight is worth LA+1 if it scales with level. The huge skill bonuses probably merit another +1. It seems to be a very good fighter race and wizards but it should have blindsense/sight. I'd also tone down the intimidate. If Orcs don't have a bonus, bat wings probably don't merit much either

[iwantmyjetpack]

As a general rule fight is worth LA+1 if it scales with level. The huge skill bonuses probably merit another +1. It seems to be a very good fighter race and wizards but it should have blindsense/sight. I'd also tone down the intimidate. If Orcs don't have a bonus, bat wings probably don't merit much either

Ignore this post. Top post has current info.

Race: Winged people until i get another name.
LA: 1
+2 to dex as they are agile and natural flyers.
-4 to charisma for being mildly autistic and bat wings. (because you can be good looking as but have no social skills)

-4 to bluff because they cant lie...
-4 to intimidate because they cant grasp scaring someone into submission.
+2 vs being fear/intimidation. Hard to faze.
+2 to tumble for being nimble on the ground as well as in the air.
-4 to hide for huge wings.
+2 to heal, because when you crash, you have to learn how to fix yourself.
+2 on listen, search, and spot checks.
-2 to any check made in a Dungeon (cave or otherwise). This race goes out of its way to avoid being underground at all costs. They dont like it.

Weapon Focus: They get the weapon focus, as they are familiarized with a single weapon from birth.
Adept learner: Does not take cross-training penalties in point cost when learning other skills, but take standard multiclass penalties.
Wings: Fly (Good). Natural flyers.
Low light vision.
Medium - 30ft
Automatic language - Common.
Resistance to sleep magic - Comes from not falling asleep on long flights.
5 DR for Cold and Lightning, again from flying in dangerous conditions.
Good recovery: Members of this race can spread their wings to slow their fall if they are walking. The longer the fall, the better the chance of recovery. (Think a cats)


Hows this?

[iwantmyjetpack]

Ignore this post. Top post is the one i've settled on editing.

Alright, third time's a charm. Common people, feedback. Nitpick, please!

Race: Winged people until i get another name.
LA: +1
+2 to dex as they are agile and natural flyers.
-4 to charisma for being mildly autistic and bat wings.

-2 to bluff.
+2 vs being fear/intimidation. Hard to faze.
+2 to tumble for being nimble on the ground as well as in the air.
+2 on spot checks.
-4 to hide for huge wings.
Weapon Focus: They get the weapon focus, as they are familiarized with a single weapon from birth.
Able Learner: Does not take cross-training penalties in point cost when learning other skills, but take standard multiclass penalties.
Wings: Fly (Good). Natural flyers.
Low light vision.
Medium Humanoid - 30ft
Automatic language - Common.
5 DR for Cold and Lightning, for flying in dangerous conditions.
Good recovery: Members of this race can spread their wings to slow their fall if they are walking. The longer the fall, the better the chance of recovery. (Think a cats) (Does anyone know any good stat or feat for this?)
Favored Class: ???


You will notice a few things. No inborn magical abilities, and a focus on autism. I'm not sure what the opinion of autism is, this race is my attempt to force myself away from playing charismatic characters. Go ahead and ask me any question, i wont get mad.

[Pesimismrocks]

Good recovery: Members of this race can spread their wings to slow their fall if they are walking. The longer the fall, the better the chance of recovery. (Think a cats) (Does anyone know any good stat or feat for this?)


Dragonborn with wings have this ability, can't remember it at the moment.
Your good learning is very similiar to the able learner feat. LA1 seems quite fair

[Soliloquy]

I recommend consulting the Raptorans (RotW). They're just this but with feathers.

[Deviston]

Vesperti, Child of the Dark
Abilities: +2 Dexterity, -4 Wisdom The batfolk are naturally lithe, but their awkward evolution has left them slightly autistic.
Aberration: As aberrations, vesperti have darkvision out to 60 feet. They are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as with whatever types of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that their classes allow. Vesperti eat, sleep, and breathe.
Size: As Medium creatures, vesperti have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
Movement: Vesperti base land speed is 30 feet.
Socially Awkward (Ex): Vesperti have a very unique social structure that deviates wildly from most standard societies. They take a -4 on checks regarding social interaction with any race other than their own.
Wings (Ex): A vesperti has fully formed wings. They can use these wings to aid in their jumps (granting a +10 racial bonus on Jumps checks) and to glide. Those with 6HD or more can use their wings to fly.
Gliding: A vesperti can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Vesperti glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a vesperti's maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A vesperti can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a vesperti becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The vesperti descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
Flight: When a vesperti reaches 6 HD, she gains a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. A vesperti can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted.
A vesperti can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to her Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). She can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The vesperti is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a vesperti can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, she can remain aloft for extended periods, even if she can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
When she reaches 12 HD, a vesperti has enough stamina and prowess to fly without tiring. She can fly at a speed of 30 feet (average maneuverability) with no more exertion than walking or running.
A vesperti with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the vesperti must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A vesperti can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage.
A vesperti with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.
Able Learner (Ex): Vesperti gain the Able Learner feat as a bonus feat due to their desire to experience a broad range of new things.
Favored Class: Ranger
Level Adjustment: None


Rover of the Winds (Racial)
Wilds winds can be the harbinger of storms, something you never failed to forget.
Prerequisites: Vesperti 1st level
Benefits: Energy resistance 5 against cold and electric damage.

[iwantmyjetpack]

So this makes... three races, original races, that are flying, and autistic?

Bwahahahahaha! This is a freaking riot!

That said, i didnt read these guys before i made my race, and i think i like the flavor of mine a bit more... i just need to put this background in the back of my head down. What i need to know is: Is what i have workable (not broken, as in gamebreaking)? Is there any room, anything i should add?

And as someone who is autistic, i'm not sure about the -4 wisdom... Maybe just a flavor of autism?

Here is a thought. -10 to Bluff and Diplomacy. Would that be the equivalent of -4 charisma? (edit: Woke up this morning thinking this was a bad idea, at least out to -10. Something more mild maybe..)

[Deviston]

Charisma is your force of personality. Autism is a mental disorder that has nothing to do with your force of personality. If one is dumb as a box of rocks, they have a low intelligence. If someone has a low charisma, people either naturally don't like them, or perhaps they have no inclination to do what the person suggests. I have always seen autism as a Wisdom hit since an autistic person can still have genius level intellect. Normally their everyday common sense is very lacking, for example being afraid of the sound of an alarm clock. It might send them into a frightened state. Why? Becuase the connection of an alarm clock and it being a common everyday item isn't there. I see this as a low Wisdom stat.

That being said, I've kept your flavor in my race write up. Your write ups are EXTREMELY non-standard and very awkward. As to your question, left as is in your most recent itteration, make it a LA +2 and it's not gamebreaking.

Also, I have no clue what you are trying to get at with "Good Recovery". It says they can "slow their fall if they are walking". How can someone be falling AND walking at the same time? Also, if they have flight, then they can never fall unless they choose to plummet into the ground or have their wings damaged or hindered.

A better description of charismatically deficient would be brutally minded, alien psyche, naturally rude, something like that. Autism is a form of retardation.

[iwantmyjetpack]

Charisma is your force of personality. Autism is a mental disorder that has nothing to do with your force of personality. If one is dumb as a box of rocks, they have a low intelligence. If someone has a low charisma, people either naturally don't like them, or perhaps they have no inclination to do what the person suggests. I have always seen autism as a Wisdom hit since an autistic person can still have genius level intellect. Normally their everyday common sense is very lacking, for example being afraid of the sound of an alarm clock. It might send them into a frightened state. Why? Becuase the connection of an alarm clock and it being a common everyday item isn't there. I see this as a low Wisdom stat.

That being said, I've kept your flavor in my race write up. Your write ups are EXTREMELY non-standard and very awkward. As to your question, left as is in your most recent itteration, make it a LA +2 and it's not gamebreaking.

Also, I have no clue what you are trying to get at with "Good Recovery". It says they can "slow their fall if they are walking". How can someone be falling AND walking at the same time? Also, if they have flight, then they can never fall unless they choose to plummet into the ground or have their wings damaged or hindered.

A better description of charismatically deficient would be brutally minded, alien psyche, naturally rude, something like that. Autism is a form of retardation.

Thank you. This is a big help, and it has made me think...

Natural flight (wings) and Adept Learner. Is this (alone) LA1 or LA2?

When i say 'autism', what i'm trying to convey is Aspergers, meaning smart, but has trouble communicating. I dont even know if Charisma would accurately depict this, which is why I've been fiddling with negatives to bluff and diplomacy.

I've just had a very entertaining thought. Big Eater/Hollow Leg: This race eats twice as much as a human on a normal day, and three times as much during an active day. On the other hand, Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed. How would this fit in?

Also, i've done editing on the first post.

[AugustNights]

I would recommend avoiding the use of fairly common mental conditions to describe a particular race or ability bonus or penalty. Such matters can be incredibly touchy, and have varying meanings among both pyschological experts, and those who struggle with the conditions on a much more personal level.
(Note: Based on averages and some statistics, a -4 penalty to any Ability Score is by no means "slight," regardless of how accurate the Ability Penalty is to the condition in question.)

On a lighter note:
Devision's write up seems more or less accurate, with an Alternate Type being off set by a net Racial Ability Modifier of -2, and the Raptoran Wings ability.
While these seem fairly well balanced, it offers 2 Niches for the price of one. That is Aberration not Humanoid, and Gliding Improving Wings.
Maybe not such a bad thing, but a thing I would avoid.
Why aberration in the first place?

[iwantmyjetpack]

I would recommend avoiding the use of fairly common mental conditions to describe a particular race or ability bonus or penalty. Such matters can be incredibly touchy, and have varying meanings among both pyschological experts, and those who struggle with the conditions on a much more personal level.
(Note: Based on averages and some statistics, a -4 penalty to any Ability Score is by no means "slight," regardless of how accurate the Ability Penalty is to the condition in question.)

On a lighter note:
Devision's write up seems more or less accurate, with an Alternate Type being off set by a net Racial Ability Modifier of -2, and the Raptoran Wings ability.
While these seem fairly well balanced, it offers 2 Niches for the price of one. That is Aberration not Humanoid, and Gliding Improving Wings.
Maybe not such a bad thing, but a thing I would avoid.
Why aberration in the first place?

I like to stay true to a character. I have Aspergers, although a mild case of it, so i have no problem with this. However, if it needs to go, it can go.

This is not an aberration. It is a modified human, tweaked by a Wizard. (yes, i know, a wizard did it. More backstory to come.) They dont get the nifty changes... Now there is an idea. Basic human. Wings (Fly, Good). +1 LA. Swap the experience point bonus for Adept Learner. How does that sound so far? What should i put in to get a Bonus to Dex?

[Deviston]

Aberration was simply to grant the proficiency and enhanced vision (ala darkvision in this case) that the OP requested. However, I think I'm out on this one. Yall take care and good luck OP.

Edit: If you have aspergers then my suggestion for Wisdom hit is further solidified. You seem to be a pleasant fellow with a good attitutde about you. I would certainly say you don't have a -4 to Cha. However, you don't seem to grasp the standards of 3.5 and keep tossing out abnormal stats for the race, rejecting those that are very plausible and balanced. This is an inability to mentally connect the request with a valid and accurate given solution to the request.

Prime example of penalty to Wisdom. Additionally, please don't take offence as i was not attempting to slight, slander, defame, or insult you. just trying to help you with your race. If you wanted to add a -4 to "social Jnteraction checks" (this is a blanket term that HAS been used in official works and functions as you want) on top of the penalty to Wisdom, I can see that functioning as well.

[iwantmyjetpack]

Aberration was simply to grant the proficiency and enhanced vision (ala darkvision in this case) that the OP requested. However, I think I'm out on this one. Yall take care and good luck OP.

Edit: If you have aspergers then my suggestion for Wisdom hit is further solidified. You seem to be a pleasant fellow with a good attitutde about you. I would certainly say you don't have a -4 to Cha. However, you don't seem to grasp the standards of 3.5 and keep tossing out abnormal stats for the race, rejecting those that are very plausible and balanced. This is an inability to mentally connect the request with a valid and accurate given solution to the request.

Prime example of penalty to Wisdom. Additionally, please don't take offence as i was not attempting to slight, slander, defame, or insult you. just trying to help you with your race. If you wanted to add a -4 to "social Jnteraction checks" (this is a blanket term that HAS been used in official works and functions as you want) on top of the penalty to Wisdom, I can see that functioning as well.

The Wisdom thing. Thats a good idea. Thanks!

More tweaking to come. Near as i can tell, every race has 3 starting feats with lots of little things. I'll be looking closer at this.

[AugustNights]

Deviston made a point you may wish to heed, you will likely want to reformat your first post, the racial entry so that it is easier to read, and be more likely to attract constructive criticism.

Deviston's format is good, but so is the srd's, examine the dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) entry.

If I may, might I suggest this format for your race


Winged People
Humanoid (Winged People)

+2 Dexterity, -4 Charisma. The Winged People are naturally agile flyers, but suffer from mild autism, further their bat wings can be rather off-putting.
Medium: As Medium creatures, Winged People have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged People base land speed is 30 feet.
Winged People have a Fly speed is 60 feet, and Good Maneuverability.
Low-Light Vision: A Winged Person can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged People are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-2 racial penalty on Bluff checks.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. The Winged People have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear, and checks against intimidation. Winged People are hard to faze.
Gliding: Winged People can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Winged People glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a Winged People's maneuverability improves, they can't hover while gliding. Winged People can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a Winged People becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged People descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
Energy Resistance: Winged People have Resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5. Winged People are used to flying in dangerous conditions.
Weapon Focus: Winged People receive the Weapon Focus feat for any single weapon of their choosing at character creation, once this choice is made it cannot later be altered. Winged People are familiarized with a single weapon from birth.
Able Learner: Winged People do not take cross-training penalties in point cost when learning other skills, but take standard multiclass penalties.
Socially Awkward (Ex): Winged People have a very unique social structure that deviates wildly from most standard societies. They take a -4 on checks regarding social interaction with any race other than their own.
Hollow Leg: Winged People eat twice as much as a human on a normal day, and three times as much during an active day. On the other hand, cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: ???.
Favored Class: ???.
Level Adjustment +1



And a followup critique, if you don't mind, if you do, ignore it! Just use what helps you.



For starters allow me to provide some possible names; Darkwings, Flederman, Alaeliquis, Icarun, Saguzari, Palkarin, Bianfian, Flytre, Lepakkin, Strauzi, Jacuta, Marvadayin... more if you like.

Not sure if the unbalanced net ability modifiers are necessary for this LA +1 race, you could probably get away with only a -2 penalty to either Charisma or Wisdom, whichever direction you ultimately go in.

Fly speed 60 with good maneuverability may be worth bumping this race up to LA +2. I'm not good with LA myself, but I think if the speed is 30 and the Maneuverability Good, or the Speed 60 and the Maneuverability Average you'd be fine for LA +1.

Probably don't need a heavy Charisma hit, -2 to Bluff, *and* a -4 to social interaction. In fact, you probably don't want more than one of these. I really recommend you avoid providing penalties to this race beyond the Ability Penalty and perhaps the Hide penalty. It's much better to focus on bonuses than penalties, especially in the LA territory. Nevertheless be wary how these penalties will stack up.

Since the race already has a Fly Speed, giving it a Glide Speed is very superfluous. You may wish to cut the glide speed, and leave in only the last bit about negating falling damage, even when unconscious. Could rename it Umbrella Fall, as you had before.

Low Energy Resistances seem on par for LA +1/+2. Seems good.

Weapon Focus is a very curious feat to provide a race, particularly a race that doesn't gain proficiency with any weapons. All in all, it's not a great feat. I would recommend instead providing the race with Martial Weapon Proficiency with the Martial Weapon of their choosing. This would go particularly nicely with a favored class that doesn't gain Martial Weapon Proficiency naturally, say like Rogue or Druid.

Your Able Learner ability is rather confusingly written. If I am not mistaken, what you are trying to convey is that the Winged People don't pay the double cost for cross-class skills, but are still limited to the number of cross-class skill ranks of 2+1/2 HD? This is a very powerful racial trait, essentially taking away the meaning of many class skills, especially if the character takes a level dip in rogue. The text could use some serious cleaning up.
If nothing else, I would suggest changing the name, as that it comes in conflict with another feat, which might cause confusion.

Hallow Leg/Big Eater is fine.

Might consider some Bonus Languages for your race, otherwise they suffer the Warforged penalty of not being able to pick up additional languages at character creation without heavy skill investment.

As for the Favored Class, I think Druid, Rogue, or Ranger would do well with the fluff as presented. Perhaps Ranger best, as an antisocial wanderer that has endured many dangerous storms and may prefer to keep to itself.

All in all seems like a bit much for a LA +1, I might recommend LA +2, or reducing the number of things that this race provides. It seems pretty trait heavy, but not terribly overpowered because of it. Then again, I am not so good with rating LA. Perhaps others will comment.

[iwantmyjetpack]

Deviston made a point you may wish to heed, you will likely want to reformat your first post, the racial entry so that it is easier to read, and be more likely to attract constructive criticism.

Deviston's format is good, but so is the srd's, examine the dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) entry.

If I may, might I suggest this format for your race


Winged People
Humanoid (Winged People)

+2 Dexterity, -4 Charisma. The Winged People are naturally agile flyers, but suffer from mild autism, further their bat wings can be rather off-putting.
Medium: As Medium creatures, Winged People have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged People base land speed is 30 feet.
Winged People have a Fly speed is 60 feet, and Good Maneuverability.
Low-Light Vision: A Winged Person can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged People are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-2 racial penalty on Bluff checks.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. The Winged People have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear, and checks against intimidation. Winged People are hard to faze.
Gliding: Winged People can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Winged People glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a Winged People's maneuverability improves, they can't hover while gliding. Winged People can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a Winged People becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged People descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
Energy Resistance: Winged People have Resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5. Winged People are used to flying in dangerous conditions.
Weapon Focus: Winged People receive the Weapon Focus feat for any single weapon of their choosing at character creation, once this choice is made it cannot later be altered. Winged People are familiarized with a single weapon from birth.
Able Learner: Winged People do not take cross-training penalties in point cost when learning other skills, but take standard multiclass penalties.
Socially Awkward (Ex): Winged People have a very unique social structure that deviates wildly from most standard societies. They take a -4 on checks regarding social interaction with any race other than their own.
Hollow Leg: Winged People eat twice as much as a human on a normal day, and three times as much during an active day. On the other hand, cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: ???.
Favored Class: ???.
Level Adjustment +1



And a followup critique, if you don't mind, if you do, ignore it! Just use what helps you.



For starters allow me to provide some possible names; Darkwings, Flederman, Alaeliquis, Icarun, Saguzari, Palkarin, Bianfian, Flytre, Lepakkin, Strauzi, Jacuta, Marvadayin... more if you like.

Not sure if the unbalanced net ability modifiers are necessary for this LA +1 race, you could probably get away with only a -2 penalty to either Charisma or Wisdom, whichever direction you ultimately go in.

Fly speed 60 with good maneuverability may be worth bumping this race up to LA +2. I'm not good with LA myself, but I think if the speed is 30 and the Maneuverability Good, or the Speed 60 and the Maneuverability Average you'd be fine for LA +1.

Probably don't need a heavy Charisma hit, -2 to Bluff, *and* a -4 to social interaction. In fact, you probably don't want more than one of these. I really recommend you avoid providing penalties to this race beyond the Ability Penalty and perhaps the Hide penalty. It's much better to focus on bonuses than penalties, especially in the LA territory. Nevertheless be wary how these penalties will stack up.

Since the race already has a Fly Speed, giving it a Glide Speed is very superfluous. You may wish to cut the glide speed, and leave in only the last bit about negating falling damage, even when unconscious. Could rename it Umbrella Fall, as you had before.

Low Energy Resistances seem on par for LA +1/+2. Seems good.

Weapon Focus is a very curious feat to provide a race, particularly a race that doesn't gain proficiency with any weapons. All in all, it's not a great feat. I would recommend instead providing the race with Martial Weapon Proficiency with the Martial Weapon of their choosing. This would go particularly nicely with a favored class that doesn't gain Martial Weapon Proficiency naturally, say like Rogue or Druid.

Your Able Learner ability is rather confusingly written. If I am not mistaken, what you are trying to convey is that the Winged People don't pay the double cost for cross-class skills, but are still limited to the number of cross-class skill ranks of 2+1/2 HD? This is a very powerful racial trait, essentially taking away the meaning of many class skills, especially if the character takes a level dip in rogue. The text could use some serious cleaning up.
If nothing else, I would suggest changing the name, as that it comes in conflict with another feat, which might cause confusion.

Hallow Leg/Big Eater is fine.

Might consider some Bonus Languages for your race, otherwise they suffer the Warforged penalty of not being able to pick up additional languages at character creation without heavy skill investment.

As for the Favored Class, I think Druid, Rogue, or Ranger would do well with the fluff as presented. Perhaps Ranger best, as an antisocial wanderer that has endured many dangerous storms and may prefer to keep to itself.

All in all seems like a bit much for a LA +1, I might recommend LA +2, or reducing the number of things that this race provides. It seems pretty trait heavy, but not terribly overpowered because of it. Then again, I am not so good with rating LA. Perhaps others will comment.



Thanks! After taking a bit of time off to think, i think i've found what i'm looking for, but further critiques are welcome. Basically, a winged human that has been tweaked. Now i begin figuring out how to squeeze in a little Natural Armor.

When flying, the Winged People's profile changes from medium to large, because of the wingspan.

Cannot use longbows, slings, or swirly weapons (weapons you spin over your head) while flying, as the wings get in the way. (Use pictures as a reference.)

+2 Natural Armor.

Thoughts?

[Debihuman]

I am utterly confused by your race. Normally LA +1 means no flight until they reach a certain level and in the meantime, they would have glide. Getting Flight at level 1 is worth LA+1 by itself.

There is no "Good Maneuverability Feat" per se.

Winged People

Humanoid (Winged People) (Better name required)
Medium: As Medium creatures, Winged People have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged People base land speed is 30 feet.
Winged People have a Fly speed is 60 feet, and Average Maneuverability.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged People are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-2 racial penalty on Bluff checks.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. The Winged People have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Gets one extra feat at first level.
Skilled: Gets the Human skill rank modifier. [If you mean that they get 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do, then you should spell it out]
Gliding: Winged People can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Winged People glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a Winged People's maneuverability improves, they can't hover while gliding. Winged People can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a Winged People becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged People descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall. (This is the equivalent of running to crawling)
Able Learner: Winged People do not pay double for cross-class skills. Still limited to the number of cross-class skill ranks of 2+1/2 HD.
Hollow Leg: Winged People have to eat twice as much as a human on a normal day, and three times as much during an active day. [Define active day]
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1


I'm not convinced this works as LA+1.

Debby

[iwantmyjetpack]

I am utterly confused by your race. Normally LA +1 means no flight until they reach a certain level and in the meantime, they would have glide. Getting Flight at level 1 is worth LA+1 by itself.

There is no "Good Maneuverability Feat" per se.

Winged People

Humanoid (Winged People) (Better name required)
Medium: As Medium creatures, Winged People have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged People base land speed is 30 feet.
Winged People have a Fly speed is 60 feet, and Average Maneuverability.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged People are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-2 racial penalty on Bluff checks.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. The Winged People have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Gets one extra feat at first level.
Skilled: Gets the Human skill rank modifier. [If you mean that they get 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do, then you should spell it out]
Gliding: Winged People can use their wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward movement for every 5 feet of descent. Winged People glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a Winged People's maneuverability improves, they can't hover while gliding. Winged People can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
If a Winged People becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, their wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The Winged People descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall. (This is the equivalent of running to crawling)
Able Learner: Winged People do not pay double for cross-class skills. Still limited to the number of cross-class skill ranks of 2+1/2 HD.
Hollow Leg: Winged People have to eat twice as much as a human on a normal day, and three times as much during an active day. [Define active day]
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1


I'm not convinced this works as LA+1.

Debby

This has helped me narrow down what i'm looking for.

Got rid of Able Learner. Replaced with:
Natural Tumbler/Spotter/Flyer: Winged People take no cross class penalties when investing in these skills.

Fixed Big Eater. Now its just three times as much as a human.

Fixed Bonus languages.

Fixed Skilled.

Will this work, or what's bothering you?

EDIT: There is a series of feats that allow you to upgrade your winged race's flying, from poor, to average, to good, to perfect.

EDIT EDIT: Still up for work.
When flying, the Winged People's target profile changes from medium to large, because of the wingspan. They receive no bonuses, only a standard negative to AC. (I'm assuming -1 AC is standard.)

Cannot use longbows, slings, or swirly weapons (weapons you spin over your head) while flying, as the wings get in the way. (Use pictures as a reference.)

+2 Natural Armor.

[Debihuman]

EDIT: There is a series of feats that allow you to upgrade your winged race's flying, from poor, to average, to good, to perfect.

Why can't these take those feats normally when they qualify for them? Also please cite to the feats in question because I have no idea what actual feats you mean. A name of the feat and the book would be extremely helpful.


When flying, the Winged People's profile changes from medium to large, because of the wingspan.

Silly idea. A creature doesn't change size just because its wings unfurl.
Rather, they should have extra reach if they can unfurl their wings fully.


Cannot use longbows, slings, or swirly weapons (weapons you spin over your head) while flying, as the wings get in the way. (Use pictures as a reference.)

Why can they hold any weapons while flying? Even wielding a sword would be unbalancing.

Debby

[iwantmyjetpack]

Why can't these take those feats normally when they qualify for them? Also please cite to the feats in question because I have no idea what actual feats you mean. A name of the feat and the book would be extremely helpful.

Improved Flight W:CAd 110 General
You gain greater maneuverability when flying than you would normally have.
PREREQUISITE: Ability to fly (naturally, magically, or through shapechanging).
BENEFIT: Your maneuverability class while flying improves by one step—clumsy to poor, poor to average, average to good,
or good to perfect.

I'm sorry, but i didnt understand your first question. Could you reword it?



Silly idea. This means they have extra reach if they can unfurl their wings fully.

Fixed. Your profile becomes that of a large creature, which if i remember gives a -1 AC. No benefits. It means your easier to hit.



Why can they hold any weapons while flying? Even wielding a sword would be unbalancing.

...Why couldn't they? If i'm missing something, tell me, but i have read nothing that would say they couldn't. (I might ditch that part, since after i look back on it, it sounds silly.) There are feats that allow you to attack in flight, like Improved Flyby Attack (General) in W:Epic 70.

[Debihuman]

Either they can use any weapon they qualify for (based on class) while flying or they shouldn't be able to use any weapon while flying. I find it disingenuous to do anything else. It puts a limitation on using this as a PC that shouldn't be there.


When flying, the Winged People's target profile changes from medium to large, because of the wingspan. They receive no bonuses, only a standard negative to AC. (I'm assuming -1 AC is standard.)

Like I said, it's a silly idea. You don't take penalties to AC if you sit down normally or raise your hands above your head. Treating wings as if somehow they granted a size bonus is ludicrous.

Going from Medium to Large size grants all of the following bonuses and penalties: +8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Natural Armor, -1 AC/Attack. It seems ridiculous to have to recalculate the creature each time it flies.

Debby

[iwantmyjetpack]

Either they can use any weapon they qualify for (based on class) while flying or they shouldn't be able to use any weapon while flying. I find it disingenuous to do anything else. It puts a limitation on using this as a PC that shouldn't be there.



Your right, its silly. I'll toss it.



Like I said, it's a silly idea. You don't take penalties to AC if you sit down normally or raise your hands above your head. Treating wings as if somehow they granted a size bonus is ludicrous.

Going from Medium to Large size grants all of the following bonuses and penalties: +8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Natural Armor, -1 AC/Attack. It seems ridiculous to have to recalculate the creature each time it flies.

Debby

I said WP gets no bonuses. No ST modifiers, no con modifiers, no NA modifiers, they just present a slightly bigger target. When flying. Think of it. Lets say each wing is 10 feet across. Count in the torso, and you just went from feet across (wings folded in the back) to 22 feet across (wings outstretched.) Not precise measurements, but enough to get my idea across. This is, however, up for debate. I'm still looking for a balance to a little Natural Armor.

With a dragon, i dont think this rule would be necessary. But with a humanoid, i think it does.

When flying, the Winged People's target profile changes from medium to large, because of the wingspan. -1 AC, no size bonuses.

+1 Natural Armor.

[Debihuman]

I said WP gets no bonuses. No ST modifiers, no con modifiers, no NA modifiers, they just present a slightly bigger target. When flying. Think of it. Lets say each wing is 10 feet across. Count in the torso, and you just went from feet across (wings folded in the back) to 22 feet across (wings outstretched.) Not precise measurements, but enough to get my idea across.

If the wings fold, wouldn't that give them 20-foot reach with wings? I don't think it is really fair to make them bigger targets without giving them the benefits that normally go with the larger size.

FYI, Medium is 4 to 8 feet and Large is 8 to 16 feet. 22 feet would actually be Huge. Going from Medium to Huge would be -3 to AC and attack for example.

Debby

[iwantmyjetpack]

If the wings fold, wouldn't that give them 20-foot reach with wings? I don't think it is really fair to make them bigger targets without giving them the benefits that normally go with the larger size.

FYI, Medium is 4 to 8 feet and Large is 8 to 16 feet. 22 feet would actually be Huge. Going from Medium to Huge would be -3 to AC and attack for example.

Debby

First, they arnt precise measurements, but i can work with it. So, lets try 22 feet. Its not 22 feet around, its 22 feet long. It like trying to hit a 22 foot gate that stands 6 feet tall with an arrow instead of hitting a gate 22 feet high and 22 feet wide. There are no rules for width that i know of, so i'm averaging it out.

Keep in mind the wings are occasionally flapping, and changing size. Again, since there are no rules for this, i'm averaging it out.

I'm doing this for the sake of getting some natural armor, since it makes sense in the race's backstory. (A wizard did it.) I'm guessing you have more experience in this than i do. If you think that what ive said makes no sense, i'll drop it and forego the natural armor.

[Debihuman]

It depends on how you look at size. If you don't want to consider them Large with a 22-foot wingspan, then don't give them mechanics that suggest otherwise. It strikes me that you just want to make having the wings become a liability rather than an asset, which isn't fair to a PC.

I recommend that it lose its ability to fly altogether but keep the gliding ability. It really doesn't make sense for a creature to have both. BTW, gliding is not a "subset" of flying. It is a separate extraordinary ability.

Fly is not a skill in 3.5.

Here is a more standard complement of racial abilities.

Winged People Racial Traits

Humanoid (Winged People)
Medium: As Medium creatures, winged people have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged people's base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged people are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. Winged people have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Winged people get one extra feat at first level, as humans
Skilled: Gets 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do.
Gliding (Ex): A winged person can use its wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Winged people glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if a winged person's maneuverability improves, it can't hover while gliding. A winged person can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a winged person becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, its wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The winged person descends in a tight corkscrew and only takes 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall.
Natural Tumbler/Spotter: Winged people take no cross class penalties when investing in these skills.
Hollow Leg (Ex): Winged People eat three times as much as a human. Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any, but no secret languages.
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +0


Improved Flight feat from Complete Adventurer page 110 only pertains to flying and not gliding.

Debby

[iwantmyjetpack]

Can i get a citation on that Gliding statement? I'm looking through my Complete Feats list and cant find it. Also, wall of text needs editing. I'm not sure what is supposed to be there and not supposed to be there.

If i have to pick, i'll go with flying over gliding.

How about simply getting rid of the whole size modifier thing and simply make it -1 AC when flying? (I'm building this race for me to play)

[Debihuman]

It's edited now.

This is how it looks with flight instead of gliding. Pick yer poison :-)

Winged People Racial Traits

Humanoid (Winged People)
Medium: As Medium creatures, winged people have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Winged people's base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble and Spot checks. Winged people are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. Winged people have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Winged people get one extra feat at first level, as humans
Skilled: Gets 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do.
Flight (Ex): Winged People have a Fly speed of 60 feet, and Average Maneuverability.
Natural Tumbler/Spotter: Winged people take no cross class penalties when investing in these skills.
Hollow Leg (Ex): Winged People eat three times as much as a human. Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any, but no secret languages.
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1

[iwantmyjetpack]

I think i'll stick with the flying one. I cant find the gliding rules online. i'll see if i have a pdf on what you suggested.

Thank you so, so, SO much for helping! I really appriciate it!

Now on to the fluff.
A wizard did it.

More to come.

EDIT: What about Flight as a skill that takes no penalties for point application? I think it would make sense, since they do it as often as they walk or run.

[Debihuman]

Gliding is a special ability not a movement type: see Dragonborn in Races of the Dragon and Hadozee in Stormwrack for examples. See my edits: Gliding is LA +0 and Flight is LA+1.

Debby

[Mutazoia]

You could always just adjust the Avariel (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Avariel_(3.5e_Race)) and just make their wings be bat wings instead of eagle wings...

[iwantmyjetpack]

Found this link. Will look at it tomorrow, as i'm getting tired. Only link i could find.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160168

Cant read your link dude, my computer does not like that site.

Edit, found another link. Still thinking

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/avariel.htm

[iwantmyjetpack]

Darkwing/Icarun Racial Traits

Humanoid (Darkwing/Icaruns)
Medium: As Medium creatures, Icaruns have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Icaruns base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble, Jump, Balance, and Spot checks. Icaruns are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. Icaruns have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
Bonus Feat: Icaruns get one extra feat at first level, as humans
Skilled: Gets 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do.
Flight (Ex): Icaruns have a Fly speed of double their ground speed, and Average Maneuverability.
Natural Tumbler/Spotter/Flier/Jumper: Icaruns take no double cost penalties when investing in these skills, and may treat fly as a class skill.
Hollow Leg (Ex): Icaruns eat three times as much as a human. Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed. An Icaruns can survive for ten days without food before starving to death, and if not fed in three days, will suffer fatigue.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Sign, Any, but no secret languages.
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1


Alright, pup, alright! You wanna hear how we got our start? Where we came from? I'd think you'd want to get it from that bard who rolled on up to our floating city... no, from me? Why thanks pup, I like how I tell it to. Now then... ahem

A long time ago, there was a wizard named Eldrid who lived in a big-ass floating castle. Eldrid got bored and decided to create a batch of winged minions to do his bidding. He first experimented with winged monkeys, but it didn't turn out so well, as some witch from the west stole them all. He then tried mixing an owl and a bear, but it was problematic, so he moved on, and the owlbears subsequently escaped and terrorized the countryside until adventurers beat the population down to a more manageable size. He looked into putting wings on goblins, but found that the little buggers had a fear of heights. He then figured on messing with dragons, but after a stern discussion with Bahamot and Tiamat, who were willing to put aside their differences for this, he figured that was too much trouble.

Then, brilliance struck him. He took a bunch of humans and gave them batwings. He tweaked them, and for the cost of LA1, he then had flying humans to do his bidding. He didn't know what to call them, but that could be solved at a later date.

Everything was going well for him. He had a few hundred legions of winged humans, all firmly under his control. He had his floating castle, next to his own floating mountains. He was feared throughout the world, and beings of the lower plains vied for his attention and favor.

Then one day, he managed to piss off a fellow mage of not inconsiderable power. This mage thought it would be a good idea to whack Eldrid. Realizing that getting though all of Eldrid's winged minions and moving an army up to a warded, floating castle of rather large size was going to be more trouble than it was worth, he simply decided to blow the entire area to kingdom come. Which he did.

The enchantments of the castle held long enough for Eldrid to counter the attack, but the attack was powerful, and he was soon overwhelmed... yes, the other wizard killed Eldrid, and was shortly torn apart by other wizards himself. Dont jump ahead!

And there we were, released from our control, half our population gone, and our homes torn apart. And the bastard still forgot to name us. So we picked up, made our home amongst the ruins, started building, learning, and soon turned the ruins into our floating city, expanded, formed a few other smaller cites... how did we get named 'Darkwings' by the world at large? That's another story... 'Poor mans Succubus?' I don't think your old enough for that one pup... 'Icaruns?' Yeah, thats what we started calling ourselves that shortly after Eldrid got kaboomed., but it never stuck.

Is it true that we wish we had feather wings better than bat wings? Well they'd be warmer, thats for sure. And they dont unnerve people as much. And their prettier... and I hear your mother calling you, pup, you best run along home. As for me, time for some hot bread loafs and a few bowls of soup...

[iwantmyjetpack]

Darkwing/Icarun Racial Traits

Humanoid (Darkwing/Icaruns)
Medium: As Medium creatures, Icaruns have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Icaruns base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial bonus on Tumble, Jump, Balance, and Spot checks. Icaruns are nimble on the ground as well as in the air, and have sharp eyesight.
-4 racial penalty on Hide checks. Icaruns have huge wings which make hiding difficult.
-8 racial penalty on Disguise checks. Those huge wings are a dead givaway.
(I cant believe i didnt think of this before. It makes sense to me, you cannot pass yourself off as a half-orc, elf, or even a baseline human It severely limits what you can pass yourself off as.. Thoughts?)
Bonus Feat: Icaruns get one extra feat at first level, as humans
Skilled: Gets 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level as humans do.
Flight (Ex): Icaruns have a Fly speed of double their ground speed, and Average Maneuverability.
(I haven't been able to find any feats that increase flight speed, only ground speed. Unless dash counts...)
Natural Tumbler/Spotter/Flier: Icaruns take no double cost penalties when investing in these skills, and may treat fly as a class skill.
(For some reason, no class that i know of (or base class)has fly listed as a natural skill. Why? Defiantly want to keep Tumbling, and spotting makes a racial sense. This Advantage is balanced against Hollow Leg. This is a nerfed version of Abel/Adept learner, which removes doublecost from cross class skills.)
Hollow Leg (Ex): Icaruns eat three times as much as a human. Cooks think think they are very satisfying to cook for, as this race is very appreciative of the efforts made to keep them fed. An Icaruns can survive for ten days without food before starving to death, and if not fed in three days, will suffer fatigue. Flaw, which gives me one feat.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Sign, Any, but no secret languages.
Favored Class: Any. (As human)
Level Adjustment +1


And as usual, everything here is up for debate.

The character i want to play will be a fighter, so i wont be taking the winged-elf option. I think i have enough grounding here to work off of.

[Debihuman]

Fly isn't a skill in 3.5; it is a skill in Pathfinder. Wouldn't the HUGE wings be a problem with Hide too?

Debby

[LordErebus12]

Wouldn't the HUGE wings be a problem with Hide too?

Debby

All the paladins are gonna think you are half-fiend. be prepared to face smite attempts.