GitP PrC Contest: Chat Thread V

[Zaydos]

Picture contest is now over, voting thread will be up tomorrow.

Did the voting thread ever get made? I couldn't find it.


On a similar note, looking back at the Winter Court Emissary (under the critiques made by Zaydos and others), there are a few glaring mistakes in the spell-list (namely, Darkness is on there twice, and Blacklight is at the same level as it), as well as me not liking some of the fluff-crunch interactions (namely, that you can't do the properly-Unseelie thing and take the power for yourself). I'll make a thread for it that fixes these afterwards.

I look forward to seeing it.


What ideas does anyone have for the next contest?

First things that come into mind:

Anime
Star Trek
Vestiges
Archons - I mean Mount Celestia not the Star Trek episode I'm watching
Rulers and Leaders
The Gray Wastes

[necroon]

What ideas does anyone have for the next contest?
What about doing a prestige class contest with a Wuxia and/or OA feel to it?

[malonkey1]

What ideas does anyone have for the next contest?

Spies: James Bond, Archer, The Bourne Series, Chuck, Harriet the Spy, there's no shortage of sources to draw upon.

[Ra_Va]

Did the voting thread ever get made? I couldn't find it.



Apparently not I apologize I thought I had. It is now here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16854989#post16854989)


What ideas does anyone have for the next contest?

Classes somehow associated with little-known D&D gods (or little known gods in general) would be interesting, but I'm a Lore & Mythology nut

[Adam1949]

Classes somehow associated with little-known D&D gods (or little known gods in general) would be interesting, but I'm a Lore & Mythology nut



Anime
Star Trek
Vestiges
Archons
Rulers and Leaders
The Gray Wastes

I like all of the above.

To put in my my own two cents, what about a contest themed around certain weapons? As in, the main theme of the prestige class places importance around (but isn't necessarily a boost towards) a certain kind of weapon? Like, of course there could be the traditional "Master Archer" or "Belmont Whip" kind of things, but also classes that would be about finding the legendary Excalibur, or destroying an opponent's gear with you martial skill.

[Temotei]

Frozen Seer has an embarrassingly large number of typos. After the contest I'll post another version with the grammar and spelling corrected.

Usually typos are a huge issue for me and I just can't read through all of it, but. Dude. I look forward to it.


On a similar note, looking back at the Winter Court Emissary (under the critiques made by Zaydos and others), there are a few glaring mistakes in the spell-list (namely, Darkness is on there twice, and Blacklight is at the same level as it), as well as me not liking some of the fluff-crunch interactions (namely, that you can't do the properly-Unseelie thing and take the power for yourself). I'll make a thread for it that fixes these afterwards.

Hell yeah. Also excited to see this. This contest was just brewing with awesome. Ha pun ha.

[Fortuna]

Man, this thread brings back memories. I haven't been in these parts in ages.

Do we know when the next contest is going to be starting up? I haven't brewed in a while, but it'd be nice to get back into it, and I figure a deadline and a core theme is as good a start to the creative juices as anything.

[Techwarrior]

Man, this thread brings back memories. I haven't been in these parts in ages.

Do we know when the next contest is going to be starting up? I haven't brewed in a while, but it'd be nice to get back into it, and I figure a deadline and a core theme is as good a start to the creative juices as anything.

Probably Saturday or Sunday.

[Fortuna]

Neat! I look forward to it.

[Adam1949]

So, what's the verdict on everything?

[Temotei]

So, what's the verdict on everything?

Looks like your winter court emissary got first, Realms's frozen host got second, and my solrime apostate got third.

Tech's probs just busy with life and such.

[Adam1949]

Looks like your winter court emissary got first, Realms's frozen host got second, and my solrime apostate got third.

Neat, I actually won something! That means a lot.


Tech's probs just busy with life and such.
It's all good, I was just wondering when the voting for the next contest would be.

[Techwarrior]

So, what's the verdict on everything?

*Drumroll please*

Thank you! I'd like to take a moment from our gathering here to give a big thanks to ErrantX who has been kind enough to keep the first post of this thread current with the latest in our GiTP Prestige Class Contest while he works on DSP's Pathfinder update to Tome of Battle. May your swords stay sharp ErrantX.

Now let's get down to the business at hand: the unveiling of the winners of Contest XLIV: It's Cold Outside (but baby it's bad out there).

Our first place winner was the Winter Court Emissary by Adam1949! This spell-slinging winter warrior used all the tricks and traps of the Unseelie Court to race to the finish line, beating all the opposition with a solid lead held throughout the contest.

Another newcomer, RealmsChaos brought the Frozen Host to the table. As this chilly, but hearty once-dead creature came to life, it worked all manner of chilling illusions and magics to leave the other contestants dead on their feet, scoring itself a noble second place.

Our last spot in the winner's chairs goes to the Solrime Apostate, created by Temotoi. This truth-seeker exposed the lies of the others fielded in the contest to scrape a hard-fought, well earned victory right at the very last second. Our sponsors wish it to be known that the Burning Hate should fear this creation-

Uuuuhrrk.

We apologize for this righteous interruption of your unclean program. We request that all patrons please head towards a designated exit, and accept a complimentary blessing. All praise be to Pelor.



Tech's probs just busy with life and such.

Yes. The voting thread only ended today, and I've been running errands and such all day.



It's all good, I was just wondering when the voting for the next contest would be.

I am going to post it right now. tomorrow.

Sorry about that. Contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16881844)

-Techwarrior

[Halidan]

Can we write a PrC intended for a variant [e.g. Pathfinder E6]?

[Zaydos]

Grarg! So I got most of the thought work for a class done (know what its abilities for 9 out of 10 levels would do) yet I don't think it quite fits the theme.

I mean it has some vague connections to knowledge (it harmonizes with the secrets of the Spire gaining magic resistance, some dispel/anti-magic abilities, some alignment based stuff, and some outsider based abilities around knowing true names) but I don't think it's what I want to make for this contest. So back to the drawing board.

Edit: And new idea obtained and up. Any critique is, of course, welcome. I decided spy was the way I wanted to go, but not just any spy, a psychic spy that steals secrets from their targets minds, and eventually can re-write their memories so they don't even know they were attacked.

I might type up my other idea and post it as well in its own thread if anyone is interested.

[Adam1949]

My love-letter to both my favorite visual novel and the 'good idea, bad execution' of the Truenamer has been posted; the Chromatic Truthseeker, master of colored Truths. What's the verdict on it, everyone?


And new idea obtained and up. Any critique is, of course, welcome. I decided spy was the way I wanted to go, but not just any spy, a psychic spy that steals secrets from their targets minds, and eventually can re-write their memories so they don't even know they were attacked.
I'm not particularly well-versed in Psionics, but to me the class that you've made seems fairly well-designed. Overall, it appears to be a mixture of Rogue, Lurk, and even a smattering of Soulknife and Spellthief. If I understood psionics more, I'd give your class a shot!

[Vaynor]

Is making a PrC based around someone who forgets things close enough to the contest's topic to qualify?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Similarly, would someone who hides knowledge and hoards it for himself so that no one else (except perhaps members of the other contest entries :smallwink:) can make use of it qualify?

[Fortuna]

Yay! First draft of my first contest entry in too damn long is posted. I still need to write up the prerequisite feat, and the last section of fluff, but I'd really appreciate any critique to be offered my rusty old 'brewing skills.

[Vaynor]

I've posted my PrC as well, the Befuddled Mage! Relying on senility and incompetence, the befuddled mage uses spells he doesn't realize he never learned to baffle his opponents.

[Halidan]

Vaynor's entry should win :P

[Zaydos]

@Random_person: How does True Auspice interact with High Auspice?

@Adam1949: I actually am only barely aware of Lurks existence having not looked at them since I got Complete Psi years ago except glancing at it when making this class as a potential entry and thinking "wow their sneak attack was overly nerfed".

[Fortuna]

@Random_person: How does True Auspice interact with High Auspice?

True Auspice removes the base 5% reversal rate and causes auspices to increase future reversal rates by a base 5%. High Auspice then adds on top of those numbers, so it starts at a 10% reversal rate, and inflicts a 5% reversal rate on the next hour's auspices.

[Vaynor]

I'll trade a PEACH for a PEACH if anyone would like to help critique mine. :smallsmile:

[Fortuna]

I'll trade a PEACH for a PEACH if anyone would like to help critique mine. :smallsmile:

Sure!



Befuddled Mage

http://i.imgur.com/rxMdwjQ.png
Image credit (http://latent-talent.deviantart.com/art/Old-mage-portrait-329607595)

”Hmm...yes. Wait, what?”

A befuddled mage is an old, senile wizard who, while once great, has become less quick-witted with time. Things that he once found easy to remember no longer come easily. Now, with old age, he becomes confused about spells he thought he prepared, about what the spells actually do, and the metamagic he’s altered his spells with. While the befuddled mage may appear incompetent at first glance, constantly sleeping and forgetting to cast spells, his experience, talent, and raw power make up for his senility, allowing him to cast spells he doesn’t even know with little effort.

BECOMING A BEFUDDLED MAGE

Only an experienced and aged spellcaster can become a befuddled mage, since they rely on senility in order to use their abilities.

Tongue firmly in cheek, I see. I shall bear that in mind going forth.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Spells: Ability to cast 4th-level arcane spells
Age: Must be at least Old or Venerable
Skills: Concentration 10 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 10 ranks
Feats: Any one metamagic feat
Special: Must prepare spells
Special: If the character has a long, white beard, he only needs to have 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana)

It seems kind of a shame to lock out ancient mad sorcerers, in my opinion, but perhaps your mechanics demand it.


Class Skills
The befuddled mage's class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).
Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier

Hit Dice: d4

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spellcasting

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|What was I doing?, easily distracted, what’s that called? 1/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|What’s that called? 2/day, always napping|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|What’s that called? 3/day, arthritic|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|What’s that called? 4/day, kids these days|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|What’s that called? 5/day, back in my day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class[/table]

That's a lot of class features for a full-casting class...


Class Features

Weapon Proficiencies: Befuddled mages gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

What Was I Doing?: The befuddled mage’s memory isn’t what it used to be. When casting a spell he has applied a metamagic feat to, the befuddled mage has a chance to have a different metamagic feat applied to the spell instead, regardless of the normal spell level adjustment for the metamagic feat. If multiple metamagic feats are used to improve a spell, only the feat that affects the spell level the most is affected. The befuddled mage can also choose to attempt to add a metamagic component to a spell not prepared with a metamagic feat to begin with. If used in this fashion, and a 6 is rolled, the spell is cast at half-power for all numeric components (including damage, duration, etc.).

{table=head]
d6|
Result
1-3|No change

4|Random known metamagic feat

5|Random core metamagic feat (see table below)

6|No metamagic feat[/table]

If a 4 is rolled, use the following table and substitute each number’s result for a known metamagic feat. Any other result is considered a re-roll. If a 5 is rolled, use the following table:

{table=head]
d10|Result

1|Empower Spell

2|Enlarge Spell

3|Extend Spell

4|Heighten Spell

5|Maximize Spell

6|Quicken Spell

7|Silent Spell

8|Still Spell

9|Widen Spell

10|Re-roll[/table]

If the result is not applicable to the spell, no metamagic feat is applied.

Hmm. This is an odd duck - a lot of a wizard's power comes from certainty and predictability. Also, it seems to be almost always preferable to apply this to unmetamagic'd spells, since it costs you nothing to do so unless you roll a 6 and prevents you from wasting the metamagic on a 4 or 5. I'd suggest that using it on 'vanilla' spells reduces their power on a 4-6, not just a 6.


Easily Distracted: The befuddled mage’s attention span is lacking and the intricate nature of spell casting can often be too draining. Whenever the befuddled mage casts a spell, he must succeed on a Concentration check even if it were normally not necessary. The befuddled mage must succeed on a DC 15 + spell level Concentration check in order to cast a spell. If the Concentration check is failed, the spell is not cast but no spell slot is consumed.

So that's, er, DC 15-24 for cantrips to ninths. Given that you can't non-cheesily enter this class before level 10, you're liable to have 13 ranks of Concentration when this comes into play, and if you're so inclined it's easy enough to collect items to boost your Concentration and Constitution until failure is more or less impossible. This mostly constitutes a skill/item tax, rather than an interesting penalty.


What’s That Called?: Sometimes, the befuddled mage forgets what spell he prepared and accidentally casts a different one. Once per day, the befuddled mage may sacrifice a prepared spell in order to cast any other spell of the same level that he is able to cast, even if that spell was not prepared or if that spell is not known by the befuddled mage. For example, a befuddled mage can sacrifice a prepared, third-level fireball spell and instead cast major image even if the befuddled mage has not learned or prepared the major image spell. The befuddled mage gains an additional use of this ability at 2nd level, and every level thereafter.

So... for one slot per day per level you're a full-list caster from the entire wiz/sorc list? This is ridiculous, and should be replaced with something less so.


Always Napping: The befuddled mage is often tired and has trouble staying awake. Starting at level 2, if the befuddled mage rolls a 1 when rolling a Concentration check for Easily Distracted, he falls asleep for that round, allowing no further actions to take place until the caster’s next round. Additionally, instead of needing to sleep for 8 hours straight in order to regain his spells for the day, the befuddled mage can sleep these 8 hours at any point during the day. As long as he sleeps for at least 8 hours every day, he can prepare his spells as normal.

Hm. This doesn't actually do all that much, really. It's easy enough to arrange things so that your spell is the last thing you do in the round - at worst, it'll make Quickening things occasionally not work so well. Still, it's funny, and the ability to break up sleep is pretty cool.


Arthritic: The befuddled mage’s joints are arthritic, and casting spells can be painful. Because the befuddled mage is lazy, he will often decide to put off casting spells to ease his arthritic pain. The problem is, delaying a spell can cause the befuddled mage to forget he was casting a spell in the first place. The befuddled mage can delay the effects of a spell he casts by up to 1 round per class level. When the befuddled mage remembers that the spell was supposed to go off, it suddenly activates. The caster does not need to decide exactly when the spell effects will occur, as long as it is activated before the maximum amount of delayed rounds. Activating a spell in this manner is an immediate action. For example, a level 3 befuddled mage can cast a wall of ice spell in the first round of combat, and choose to delay the effects for up to 3 rounds. He can activate the wall of ice after his turn in round one, or at any point during rounds two, three, or four.

This is really, really good. If you get the drop on an opponent, you can rain three or more rounds of death on them at once. Do you need to choose targets before the spell activates? If not, this is the ultimate scry-and-die enabler. Also, what happens if you decide not to activate it before the time runs out? Is the spell slot just wasted? I would suggest limiting it to one spell delayed at a time, at minimum.


Kids These Days: Kids these days think they can cast spells effectively, but any more experienced mage knows how to really cast spells. When attempting to counterspell any middle-aged or younger caster, the befuddled mage gains a bonus on his Spellcraft check and dispel check when counterspelling equal to his class level.

Silliness, but then, tongue firmly in cheek. This seems rather underwhelming compared to the rest of the class.


Back In My Day: The befuddled mage’s memory of spells is a little off, and sometimes he remember spells as being different than they actually are. When casting a spell, the befuddled mage can alter small details about a spell. The befuddled mage can change the descriptor of a spell and its effects. If the spell has the acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, or sonic descriptors, he can switch it with another listed descriptor, thus changing the spells effects. If the spell deals damage, the type of damage also changes. For example, when casting a fire trap spell (with the [Fire] descriptor), he can instead cast it with the [Sonic] descriptor, causing the spell to deal sonic damage instead of fire damage. The befuddled mage can also switch descriptors if the descriptor is chaotic, lawful, evil, or good; darkness or light (each item on the lists can only be changed to another descriptor on the same list).

It's like a spontaneous Energy Substitution, but with more tricks. I like this.

Overall, mechanically, I think this class is way too strong. You should cut back the spell progression by at least a level, and give the penalties some more teeth.


PLAYING A BEFUDDLED MAGE
A befuddled mage fills the role of arcane spellcaster in most groups, but uses his more unpredictable talents
Combat: One of the main combat benefits of a befuddled mage is being able to cast non-prepared or known spells at will, as well as being able to delay spells to set up situations to benefit his party and surprise his enemies.
Advancement: The befuddled mage benefits from most other full-casting prestige classes.
Resources: Befuddled mages have no organizations, and have connections and resources that any normal wizard would have access to.

Tum-te-tum, nothing to say here.


BEFUDDLED MAGES IN THE WORLD

”Someone should put him in a home. He’s a menace.”
–Fen’til, non-senile elf wizard

Befuddled mages are often misunderstood, and in general people tend to underestimate their power due to outward appearances.
Daily Life: Most of a befuddled mage’s day consists of sleeping and rambling on about the good old days.
Notables: One of the more notable befuddled mages is James Halfglen, a senile wizard who defeated the evil lich lord Hazgren by accidentally stumbling upon a battle between the lich and some adventurers and almost blowing himself up.
Organizations: Befuddled mages tend to be members of many old and respected wizarding organizations, most of which they have forgetten they are members of.

More tongue-in-cheek silliness. At least you're consistent. :smalltongue:


NPC Reaction
NPCs tend to perceive befuddled mages as less of a threat than they deserve, since their power is not diminished, but in fact empowered. Because they are often napping, rambling, or having their spells not function at all, they are often ignored in combat. Befuddled mages tend not to interact much with others outside of combat, since they are often sleeping, or, if they’re awake, they ramble about inconsequential things for hours.

BEFUDDLED MAGES IN THE GAME
Befuddled mages gain some powerful spellcasting abilities, but many of these are lessened by the drawbacks of the class.
Adaptation: Not much is needed to adapt the befuddled mage to a different setting. If the setting would not allow for a befuddled mage for any reason, there likely wouldn’t be any place for a befuddled mage at all.
Encounters: PCs could encounter a befuddled mage in most cases when a wizard would be encountered normally, except they might be especially notable due to their apparent incompetence.

And nothing really to say here either.

Overall, your tone is a bit silly for my taste, but taken on its own merits the fluff is pretty good. Mechanically, though, this is a monstrously powerful full-casting class, and I think it needs to be toned down significantly - as it stands, I would not allow it if I were running a game.

[Adam1949]

My main concern with the Befuddled Mage, overall, is the fact that they essentially gain Energy Substitution (Any Energy Type), as well as access potential access to spells that they would otherwise not know; perhaps if it only increased in spellcasting progression for 3 of the levels instead of 5. Or, another take on it would be to give them a Madness modifier equal to half their Wisdom score; this modifier would negatively affect all their WIS-based skills (and Concentration), but once a day allow them to gain it as a bonus to any single roll (I think Deities and Demigods introduced that). Otherwise, I like it a lot.

What do people think of the Chromatic Truthseeker, by the way?

[Zaydos]

Befuddled Mage:

I'm just going to go through the class features, mostly because I don't have much to say 'bout the fluff (except it made me laugh) or the prerequisites/class skills/chassis.

What Was I Doing?: Take a +0 metamagic that can be easily applied to any spell (Invisible Spell) then take Twin Spell and Quicken Spell. Apply invisible spell to things. 1 in 6 chance of Quicken Spell or Twin Spell, 1 in 6 chance of random PHB metamagic. Actually here's a question: you cast Polymorph, then you cast Quickened Shield but roll a 4 or 6 and end up with it not being Quickened, what happens? My guess is you fail to cast the spell but do you lose the spell as well?

Easily Distracted: You will never fail this check.

What's That Called Better spell pool. I'd suggest making it raise the spell level by one or two when you use this and maybe limiting it to PHB or else reducing uses; as is this is the kind of ability that begs for a loss of more than 2 CL in the build required.

Always Napping: Me and Random Person seem to have parsed this ability differently. I assumed if you rolled a nat 1 on the concentration check for casting a spell you don't finish casting it. If so it means you have a 1 in 20 chance of losing any spell which hurts and goes some ways to making up for What's That Called. If not it's a meh penalty that mostly doesn't matter.

Arthritic: First thought: wow interruption speed spells, that's a strong buff. Looks at Random Person's statements... and free quicken for several rounds in an ambush.

Kids these Days: Still won't match a clerical counterspeller. A rather minor ability.

Back in my Day: Super energy substitution. 5 levels into a PrC this isn't a huge ability and it's rather neat. I like it, although... if I give Darkness the light descriptor how bright is it? What about Deeper Darkness? Both create shadowy illumination (ok the latter is cleric only so it doesn't need to be directly addressed). What about Blacklight (total darkness)? And what about the reverse with Daylight, or Greater Abjurant Armor?

Overall: What Was I Doing? might be a double edged sword (1/3rd chance of losing quicken spell) and the unpredictability is kind of neat. What's That Called is pretty powerful, very powerful, as is arthritic the latter directly making up for part of the loss of a reliable quicken spell. Always Napping is potentially a noticeable penalty. Meanwhile I'd advice dropping the Light/Darkness aspect of Back in my Day.

Chromatic Truthseeker:
Prefactory: While I'm familiar with Umineko as a thing (and have had a fair number of plot spoilers) I have only played the first chapter and part of the second, I can't really judge it in that regard, and you seem aware of how broken some of these abilities are in a normal game which makes this a little difficult.

Colorful Skill Mastery: This ability is a bit of a mess. It's a +8 to +17 bonus to Truespeak checks, but also locks up your skill points for the first level and ~1/2. While this helps keep up with the badly designed Truespeak DC, if you're using any good fix it will break it, and if you're not then the PrC doesn't need to try and fix it.

Prisma Word: The skill checks are all rather negligible by the time you're making them (Skill Focus +3, Greater Talisman of the Silver Tongue, a +6 or 7 Int, not the highest at that level, and you have a +19 or +20 without skill ranks, throw in ranks and you have a +33 or 34 at 1st level in the PrC without Colorful Skill Mastery, by the time you need a DC 35 you'd have a +41 without colorful skill mastery as you'll probably have +7 or higher Int by that point and a +56 with it). That said as far as power level goes you could remove the skill check entirely and it wouldn't be unbalanced.

Ruby Truth: DCs that grow harder as you level is one of the large problems of Truenamer. This DC doesn't actually (and in fact is completely inconsequential as the DC caps at 18 + Int + Cha and you have no reason to have a truly high Charisma so even assuming you invest in it to your own disadvantage you'll probably have a DC of 23 + your Int at 18th level and a bonus of +37 + Int at 2nd level when you gain this ability) as the DC is actually inconsequential. The actual effect is interesting, and has some neat non-combat uses and I do love misleading people while telling the "truth".

Implausible Deniability: I'd make these a swift action, but even then. The saves one will last a whole combat so the penalty will rarely be felt; if it was an actual gamble (you are an Int based class you will have more than an encounter worth of Int bonus) it would be a really interesting ability. As is it's effectively Divine Grace when not flat-footed. The Bluff one is a huge temp hp reserve each combat (30+), but at a level where it's an extra 2 attacks of hp, I'd probably half the bonus though due to how skills can be optimized. The intimidate one... with caster level Int focus comes out to a no save no resistance 100 damage, but it's over several rounds and without teleportation style shenanigans it's not a super powerful option.

Sapphire Truth: This is. Due to how high your skill check will be this is effectively a "roll a nat 20 on your save or die" unless they're a member of this class (try proving something without a doubt to a sophist who has a reason to disagree especially in a world where it's completely possible for someone to have put a spell on someone's food so it would blow them up when they ate it and discovered the explosive note in it and then for the magical aura to be hidden or fade away, couple that with the existence of illusions in the world leaves one option: Red Truth which requires a member of this class). I'd standardize the save, and probably reduce the penalty on a failure. Also as with Red Truth the DC is inconsequential. Also how long do they have to prove themselves right?

Amethyst Declaration: This probably should allow a saving throw to resist. Also note that like the others you will never fail this skill check.

Philosophical Perfection of Truth: In an adventuring situation the month restriction is mostly meaningless unless the DM gives you time restrictions and multiple adventures within a month and no option of down time. Like the others the skill check is succeeded on a negative number meaning that it's an ineffective control. Also True Resurrection has a GP cost not an XP cost.

Final Note: I'm fairly certain Philosophical Perfection of Truth breaks Whoddunits faster than most abilities in D&D (in a murder mystery true resurrection fixes it, outside of it a wish/miracle level effect normally does if Commune or Contact Other Plane won't).

Overall: Colorful Skill Mastery immediately makes some problems and these spread throughout the class. As a whole it seems balanced off the idea that the skill checks are difficult to make but actually most of them are inconsequential even without Colorful Skill Mastery (bonus should be Class level + Int + 26, DCs are Class level + Int + Cha + 10-20 unless your Charisma is > +6 there is no chance of failure even for an Amethyst Declaration). Sapphire Truth causes problems as an offense. In many ways the class seems intended for a game where everyone has it.

[Fortuna]

I've made some modifications to the fluff, filled in at least perfunctorily everything but the sample encounter, written up the prerequisite feat and added a new class feature relating to it.

[Vaynor]

Thanks for your comments guys! Lots of helpful stuff. I'll try to PEACH yours tonight.



It seems kind of a shame to lock out ancient mad sorcerers, in my opinion, but perhaps your mechanics demand it.

Yeah, it's more about an old wizard losing his memory and not being able to remember his spells. Doesn't really fit for a spontaneous caster who just knows all of his spells by pure talent.


Hmm. This is an odd duck - a lot of a wizard's power comes from certainty and predictability. Also, it seems to be almost always preferable to apply this to unmetamagic'd spells, since it costs you nothing to do so unless you roll a 6 and prevents you from wasting the metamagic on a 4 or 5. I'd suggest that using it on 'vanilla' spells reduces their power on a 4-6, not just a 6.

Yeah, it's meant to reduce the inherent power of the ability a bit. The befuddled mage is a power boost with added unpredictability. I did intend for it to be a bit more debilitating. I've changed it so if you roll a 6, the spell fails entirely. So if you use it to modify a non-metamagicked spell, you have nothing happen on a 1-3, 4-5 adds metamagic, and a 6 negates the spell entirely. So you have a 33% chance to buff the spell, but a 16% chance to make it fail, which I think is a fairly decent trade.


So that's, er, DC 15-24 for cantrips to ninths. Given that you can't non-cheesily enter this class before level 10, you're liable to have 13 ranks of Concentration when this comes into play, and if you're so inclined it's easy enough to collect items to boost your Concentration and Constitution until failure is more or less impossible. This mostly constitutes a skill/item tax, rather than an interesting penalty.

You should be able to enter this class at level 7 with no issues as a wizard. You'd have access to 4th-level spells and be able to put 10 ranks in each skill. Do you think I should increase the DC or just make it a % chance to be distracted?


So... for one slot per day per level you're a full-list caster from the entire wiz/sorc list? This is ridiculous, and should be replaced with something less so.

It's a fairly powerful ability, but I don't think it's too excessive. I guess I could add a limit on what level spells it can be used on.


Hm. This doesn't actually do all that much, really. It's easy enough to arrange things so that your spell is the last thing you do in the round - at worst, it'll make Quickening things occasionally not work so well. Still, it's funny, and the ability to break up sleep is pretty cool.

The ability causes the spell to not function at all. You fall asleep in the middle of casting it. I'll make that more clear.


This is really, really good. If you get the drop on an opponent, you can rain three or more rounds of death on them at once. Do you need to choose targets before the spell activates? If not, this is the ultimate scry-and-die enabler. Also, what happens if you decide not to activate it before the time runs out? Is the spell slot just wasted? I would suggest limiting it to one spell delayed at a time, at minimum.

It was intended to be limited to 1 delayed spell at a time, but I forgot to put that in. I'll make it more clear.


Silliness, but then, tongue firmly in cheek. This seems rather underwhelming compared to the rest of the class.

It's not meant to be terribly powerful, just in keeping with the fluff as well as being a decent boost.


It's like a spontaneous Energy Substitution, but with more tricks. I like this.

Thanks!


Overall, mechanically, I think this class is way too strong. You should cut back the spell progression by at least a level, and give the penalties some more teeth.

I think the biggest problems were with things that needed clarifying. If you could check it out after I've posted my adjustments I'd appreciate it, to see if you still think it needs less spell progression.


Befuddled Mage:


What Was I Doing?: Take a +0 metamagic that can be easily applied to any spell (Invisible Spell) then take Twin Spell and Quicken Spell. Apply invisible spell to things. 1 in 6 chance of Quicken Spell or Twin Spell, 1 in 6 chance of random PHB metamagic. Actually here's a question: you cast Polymorph, then you cast Quickened Shield but roll a 4 or 6 and end up with it not being Quickened, what happens? My guess is you fail to cast the spell but do you lose the spell as well?

The roll takes place before the spell is cast, so if it renders the spell unable to be cast, it is simply not cast. You wouldn't lose the spell. I've clarified it in the ability description.


Easily Distracted: You will never fail this check.

Any suggestions on making it more penalizing?


What's That Called Better spell pool. I'd suggest making it raise the spell level by one or two when you use this and maybe limiting it to PHB or else reducing uses; as is this is the kind of ability that begs for a loss of more than 2 CL in the build required.

So casting a fireball would require a 4th/5th-level spell slot? Makes sense. I'll consider changing it.


Always Napping: Me and Random Person seem to have parsed this ability differently. I assumed if you rolled a nat 1 on the concentration check for casting a spell you don't finish casting it. If so it means you have a 1 in 20 chance of losing any spell which hurts and goes some ways to making up for What's That Called. If not it's a meh penalty that mostly doesn't matter.

You are correct (the former). It's meant to be a fairly significant drawback of the class.


Arthritic: First thought: wow interruption speed spells, that's a strong buff. Looks at Random Person's statements... and free quicken for several rounds in an ambush.

I've clarified it so only 1 spell is allowed to be delayed at once, which should make it more "reasonable" instead of "ridiculous".


Kids these Days: Still won't match a clerical counterspeller. A rather minor ability.

Yeah, relatively minor, but not inconsequential. I'm fine with how that one looks at this point.


Back in my Day: Super energy substitution. 5 levels into a PrC this isn't a huge ability and it's rather neat. I like it, although... if I give Darkness the light descriptor how bright is it? What about Deeper Darkness? Both create shadowy illumination (ok the latter is cleric only so it doesn't need to be directly addressed). What about Blacklight (total darkness)? And what about the reverse with Daylight, or Greater Abjurant Armor?

Hmm, you're right about darkness/light. It'd be too tricky to figure out exactly how spells would be affected. I'll just remove that aspect of it.


Overall: What Was I Doing? might be a double edged sword (1/3rd chance of losing quicken spell) and the unpredictability is kind of neat. What's That Called is pretty powerful, very powerful, as is arthritic the latter directly making up for part of the loss of a reliable quicken spell. Always Napping is potentially a noticeable penalty. Meanwhile I'd advice dropping the Light/Darkness aspect of Back in my Day.

I'm glad you like them, the unpredictability is part of what makes the class fun to play and (hopefully) dampen its power.

Changelog:
What Was I Doing? now causes a spell to fail entirely on a 6 if attempting to add a metamagic feat to a non-metamagicked spell.
Made it more clear that Always Napping's critical failure causes the spell to fail.
Arthritic now only allows one delayed spell at a time.
Clarified the effects of changing metamagic components and loss of spell slots in What Was I Doing?.
Rolling a 5 and then a 10 on What Was I Doing? no longer causes a re-roll, but causes the spell to have no metamagic added at all.

[Fortuna]

Those clarifications and changes improve the class a lot, but What Was That Called is still brokenly powerful. Even limited as it is, it guarantees access to exactly the right spell for the job, making the already-strong wizard capability to prepare for almost any contingency essentially perfect. Arthritic is also still strong, although more reasonably so. I would say that unless you significantly weaken What Was That Called, the class should only progress 4/5 or even 3/5 casting.

[Vaynor]

How do you feel about making it limited by level based on class level? So a level 1 befuddled mage could only use it with level 1 spells, but a level 5 befuddled mage could use it on spells as high as 5th level.

[Fortuna]

That... would be better, but I'd still be very uneasy about it. There are a lot of spells published for the wizard. I would suggest instead limiting it to only draw spells from the wizard's spellbook or something of that kind.

[Zaydos]

The Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool is limited to the PHB, and is limited to class level in spell levels each day (also I think requires an empty slot for prepared casters)

[Vaynor]

Yeah, I understand that, I just really like the idea of them being able to cast spells they never even learned. I think limiting the spells' level should be enough.

[Fortuna]

Limiting the spells' level will help, but fifth level spells are strong enough to make that power broken to have at 13th level.

[Vaynor]

I don't think it really makes them broken, it's just extremely useful. It's not like they're getting a free random spell. They have to use a spell slot for it like normal, they just don't have to have prepared it. Wizards tend to know most of the spells they'd ever cast anyways. It's not like spellbooks are very limited. And, especially by 13th level, you can afford to buy most of the spells you'd want. Useful, certainly, but definitely not gamebreaking. Keep in mind they still have a 5% chance to lose the spell entirely. I also am still looking for a way to make Easily Distracted more punishing. The intention is for that to be a major concern, although I admit that the current skill DC is underwhelming.

[Zaydos]

Well with the level plus I might just cut it to 1/day + 1 at 3rd and 5th, another possible option is that it has to be the same school as the spell they were casting (so you could spend Acid Fog to get Teleport, but not Teleport to get Confusion).

[Vaynor]

That actually makes thematic sense, too. They cast a spell similar to the one they meant to. Good suggestion, thanks!

I'll work on figuring out a way to make Easily Distracted more penalizing. I think, at that point, it should be decently balanced.

Changelog:
What Was I Doing? now causes a spell to fail entirely on a 6 if attempting to add a metamagic feat to a non-metamagicked spell.
Made it more clear that Always Napping's critical failure causes the spell to fail.
Arthritic now only allows one delayed spell at a time.
Clarified the effects of changing metamagic components and loss of spell slots in What Was I Doing?.
Rolling a 5 and then a 10 on What Was I Doing? no longer causes a re-roll, but causes the spell to have no metamagic added at all.
What’s That Called? now limited in spell level to class level. E.g. a level 3 befuddled mage can only cast spells using this ability that are 3rd-level or lower.
What’s That Called? now requires you to sacrifice a spell of the same school as the one you cast.



SECRETS THIEF


Borderline psionic assassin-spies, Secrets Thieves live up to their name. A Secret Thief uses their psionic powers to rip information straight from the minds of their foes, stealing from them even their most guarded secrets. A skilled Secrets Thief is able to sense nearby minds, peering across their surface to scan their thoughts, steal from foes their psionic power reserves, and even shatter magic that would protect the mind. No secret is safe from a Secret Thief as long as it is stored in a living, or even unliving, mind.

Sounds promising!


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: One Knowledge 8 ranks, another 4 ranks; one of these must be Knowledge (Psionics)
Skills: Hide or Move Silently 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Special: Must have a power point reserve.
Special: Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Psionic Sneak Attack.

Fairly lax entry requirements, but set up for a good psionic rogue class, which I'm a fan of. Not often pulled off well.


Telepathy (Su):A Secrets Thief learns to connect with the minds of others. A Secrets Thief gains telepathy with a 30-ft range as long as they are psionically focused, increasing to 60-ft at 7th level and 100-ft at 10th.

Not as common as it should be. I made a similar class based on telepathy/psionics on a rogue-like. In my opinion: telepathy is always fun.


Psychic Sneak Attack (Su): A Secrets Thief can convert the devastating blows of their sneak attacks into a mental force. Beginning at 2nd level a Secrets Thief may make their Sneak Attack a mind-affecting effect. If they do so it ignores immunity to critical hits and fortification effects, but a creature immune to mind-affecting effects is also immune to its damage. This also applies to any Sudden Strike or Psionic Sneak Attack they may possess, and whenever a Secrets Thief class feature references dice Sneak Attack it applies to the total of all three.

Most things that are immune to crits are also immune to mind-affecting things, but this is still quite nice for non-mindless undead and such. Definitely a nice and thematic power boost for a psionic rogue.


Siphon Secrets (Su): A Secrets Thief can steal secrets from the minds of foes. Beginning at 2nd level a Secrets Thief may when making a successful psychic sneak attack on a target pry from the target the information they know on one topic per 3 dice of sneak attack damage dealt (minimum 1 topic) learning what the target knows about the subject (if in doubt use the target’s knowledge skill), alternatively they may drain 1 prepared spell from the creature (rendering them expended as if cast) per topic they would have learned (beginning with their highest spell level). A creature is not aware of this effect, unless prepared spells are lost.

Only spells? You should clarify that this works for psionic powers as well. This is fairly powerful, especially since it starts with the highest spells they can cast.


Assimilate Blade (Su): A good spy never allows themselves to be disarmed, and a Secrets Thief is a good spy. Beginning at 3rd level they may absorb a light weapon into their being as a full round action, or eject it again as a standard action. While this weapon is absorbed it is completely hidden to effects. A Secrets Thief may only have two assimilated weapons at a time.

This could be nice if it allowed 2 light or 1 one-handed.


Manifest Blade (Su): A Secrets Thief may also manifest a psychic projection of any weapon hidden within them. This is a free action and manifests a psychic duplicate of the weapon made of pure mental force, with identical enchantments and even considered the same material for all purposes, although it may not look the same. If this psychic manifestation leaves their hand it vanishes swiftly, although remaining long enough to be used as a thrown weapon, and they may only manifest one copy of any given weapon at a time. When wielding a manifested weapon a Secrets Thief may deal subdual damage without a penalty to hit and with their sneak attacks, but doing so renders the attack mind-affecting and grants it the ability to ignore 5 points of Damage Reduction.

Ah, I see. This is the real benefit of Assimilate Blade. This makes thrown weapons a lot more useful, I can see this working well with thrown weapon classes. This is pretty nice, I like the option to deal non-lethal damage and ignore DR. On that note, in 3.5, subdual damage is called non-lethal damage (subdual is the 3.0 term).


Read Thoughts (Su): Beginning at 4th level a Secrets Thief can read the surface thoughts of creatures. By spending a move action you can read the thoughts of a creature within your telepathy range unless they succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + Class Level + Int modifier), it is unaware of this intrusion unless it succeeds at its Will save by 5 or more. If it succeeds its Will save you cannot target it with this ability for 1 minute.
Creatures with animal intelligence (1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts you may pick up, and more intelligent creatures will of course have more complicated thoughts. You pick up on the target’s general mood, anything they are actively thinking about, and general awareness of other creatures nearby. In addition you gain a +4 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks against a target affected by this ability, as well as a +8 bonus to Sense Motive checks. Should a creature whose mind you are reading attack you the warning obtained from this means you are not flat-footed (or surprised; even if they are flat-footed) and gain a +4 insight bonus to AC and saving throws against it. This ability lasts as long as you spend a move action each round to maintain it and the creature remains in up to twice your telepathy range.

The combat benefits aren't worth expending a move action each turn. I'd say that you need to use a swift action to maintain it once spending the initial move action. That way you can still only maintain a connection on one person at a time, but still make the bonus useful.


Mindsight: At 5th level a Secrets Thief gains MindsightLords of Madness as a bonus feat. If they already have Mindsight they may select another feat they qualify for as a bonus feat.

Nice! I like mindsight. This is a good bonus.


Psi-Blast (Psionic): At 6th level a Secrets Thief gains the ability to manifest a limited number of psionic powers. They gain the ability to manifest Mind Thrust (as a 1st level psionic power) and Ego Whip (as a 2nd level psionic power) as well as 3 power points per Secrets Thief level. Their manifester level with these powers equals their character level, and any save DCs are based off of Intellignece. A Secrets Thief does gain bonus power points for a high Intelligence, but only at a manifester level of their class level as opposed to full character level.

Solid boost, but not too powerful. I'd say this is a bit low-powered for a level 12 ability, though. Not too impressive.


Siphon Power Points (Su): At 6th level a Secrets Thief gains the ability to drain psionic power from foes. When they perform a psychic sneak attack on a creature with a psionic power point reserve they may drain 2 power points per die of sneak attack damage dealt, gaining 1 temporary power point per point drained which lasts for 1 minute or until used. They may only siphon power points from a single target once per round.

This allows them to use mind thrust a bit more, which is nice, but I'd say it's not quite enough.


Psychic Lobotomy (Su): Beginning at 8th level a Secrets Thief’s attacks may rob their targets of intelligence. The first time a Secrets Thief performs a psychic sneak attacks against a specific creature each round they deal 1 point of ability damage per 2 class level.

This ability is worded confusingly. Might want to make it more clear. Which ability score does this affect? Any? Their choice? Can it change each round? Is the amount of ability damage 1 per round per 2 class level, or 1 per 2 class level over the course of several rounds? Can this ability affect multiple creatures at a time? How long does it last?


Rend Mind Blank (Su): Beginning at 9th level a Secrets Thief’s psychic sneak attack is so devastating it destroys defenses that would stand against it. Whenever a Secrets Thief makes a psychic sneak attack against a target any immunity to mind-affecting effects they may possess, except that granted by being mindless, is suppressed for 3 rounds and any spell or psionic effect granting it is immediately dispelled.

Does this mean that the psychic sneak attack would deal damage or just nullify the mind-affecting immunity (thus allowing the next psychic sneak attack to deal damage)?


Alter Memories (Su): Beginning at 10th level a Secrets Thief can peer deeply into the mind of unconscious creatures. By spending a full-round action they may look into the mind of a touched unconscious creature observing its memories and altering them at a rate of 10 minutes per round spent altering these memories. Given sufficient time a Secrets Thief could alter the entirety of a creature’s life.

Interesting! A little powerful, but the unconscious requirement makes it a little better. 10 minutes per round is a little fast, though. Maybe make it a little less time per round spent. Rewriting 10 minutes in 6 seconds is a bit much, especially since they're unconscious anyways.

[Zaydos]

Ok, tried to clarify that Rend Mind Blank still got the damage through, and how Psychic Lobotomy Works (among other things I wrote Ability Damage instead of Intelligence Damage :smallredface:). Psychic Lobotomy gives your sneak attack a possibly overly large Int damage rider (4 to 5) which heals like normal for ability damage, and you can affect as many creatures as you can attack with it but each only once in a round. I'm a little worried it's too much to be honest.

As for the mind-reading it's not really intended as a combat ability (the combat bonuses are there mostly for versimilitude because if you're reading someone's mind you typically know you're about to be attacked and how), but I'll consider changing it to a swift action to make it more useful in combat.

Alter Memories is now 3 minutes per round (allowing you to re-write a day, except for 8 hours of sleep, in just over half an hour), might make it 1 minute a round (allowing you to do the same in ~100 minutes).

Oh yeah the reason Rend Knowledge doesn't affect Power Points is the same reason it's only prepared spells; it takes the knowledge of the spell from their mind where they prepared it. Maybe I'll make it affect spells/powers known for a few rounds when used against non-prepared casters. Decisions.

[Vaynor]

All good changes. For the Alter Memories ability, just keep in mind that Modify Memory, a 4th-level Bard spell, can only modify 5 minutes of memory. And, while that only takes a round, it takes an entire spell slot to do so. That's why I think you might want to reduce it even further. Your ability has the benefit of allowing basically infinite memory rewrites but, in my opinion, should be slower. Your ability is also very thematically appropriate and available at a higher level than Modify Memory, which is something to keep in mind.

Edit: Also, 4-5 points of Int damage per round is way too much. You need to reduce that or this class goes from a fairly decent power boost for psionic rogues to a broken mage-killer. Especially with the ability to steal very high level spells. Those are all good abilities, don't get me wrong, and I like them, but 4-5 points of Int damage is just excessive in my opinion.

[Zaydos]

Made it just 2 Int damage. Thematic, and enough to force an Int based caster to target them, but unlikely to be the deciding factor in a battle (except against Animals, but a 2nd level spell already takes out animals with a ranged touch attack and no save).

And put it at 1 minute per round (5 days in a single night). I am realizing I really wouldn't want to adventure in a party with one of these guys; they could do horrible things to me :smalleek:

[Fortuna]

Well, while I wait for Vaynor to take a look at the Augur I'll go over the Secrets Thief. As a side note, I agree with basically everything Zaydos said about the Truthseeker, and Ra_Va's entry looks incomplete so I'll wait until it's done.


SECRETS THIEF

”Knowledge is power my friends. And for a price I can get you knowledge.”

Borderline psionic assassin-spies, Secrets Thieves live up to their name. A Secret Thief uses their psionic powers to rip information straight from the minds of their foes, stealing from them even their most guarded secrets. A skilled Secrets Thief is able to sense nearby minds, peering across their surface to scan their thoughts, steal from foes their psionic power reserves, and even shatter magic that would protect the mind. No secret is safe from a Secret Thief as long as it is stored in a living, or even unliving, mind.

BECOMING A SECRETS THIEF
Some say the first secrets thieves were elite illithid assassins, and it was the rebel Gith and her rebel followers which liberated the secret art and spread it to other races. Others claim it was originally a humanoid art, and its adoption by the illithids was simply due to their lust for knowledge. Whatever the truth, most secrets thieves learn their talents from a singular master in a personal apprenticeship. Others are taught by the vile cabals of Vecna, dread god of secrets, the snake cults of the yuan-ti, and even a scattering of shadowy guilds now teach the art.

Most Secret Thieves begin as one of a variety of psionic races, their natural psionic powers helping them in their art. Others have nothing more than a smattering of Wild Talent, but others dabble more deeply in psionics picking up a few useful psionic tricks.

Interesting and exciting! This definitely makes me want to play this class.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: One Knowledge 8 ranks, another 4 ranks; one of these must be Knowledge (Psionics)
Skills: Hide or Move Silently 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Special: Must have a power point reserve.
Special: Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Psionic Sneak Attack.

Secrets Thief
The Secrets Thief's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any; each taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head] Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Sneak Attack +1d6, Telepathy (30-ft)
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Psychic Sneak Attack, Siphon Secrets
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Assimilate Blade, Manifest Blade, Sneak Attack +2d6
4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Read Thoughts
5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Mindsight, Sneak Attack +3d6
6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Psi-blast, Siphon Power Points
7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Sneak Attack +4d6, Telepathy (60-ft)
8th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+6|Psychic Lobotomy
9th|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+6|Rend Mind Blank, Sneak Attack +5d6
10th|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+7|Alter Memories, Telepathy (100-ft)[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: A Secrets Thief gains no new armor or weapon proficiencies.

Not much to say here - all looks standard and fine.


Sneak Attack: A Secrets Thief continues to learn how to perform lethal attacks on foes. A Secrets Thief continues to gain Sneak Attack (as the rogue ability) gaining an additional +1d6 damage with their sneak attack at 1st level and every odd level thereafter.

Since it's possible to enter this class without Sneak Attack, you should probably reword this either to increase whatever precision damage they already had, or to explicitly grant them Sneak Attack if they didn't already have it.


Telepathy (Su):A Secrets Thief learns to connect with the minds of others. A Secrets Thief gains telepathy with a 30-ft range as long as they are psionically focused, increasing to 60-ft at 7th level and 100-ft at 10th.

Fun!


Psychic Sneak Attack (Su): A Secrets Thief can convert the devastating blows of their sneak attacks into a mental force. Beginning at 2nd level a Secrets Thief may make their Sneak Attack a mind-affecting effect. If they do so it ignores immunity to critical hits and fortification effects, but a creature immune to mind-affecting effects is also immune to its damage. This also applies to any Sudden Strike or Psionic Sneak Attack they may possess, and whenever a Secrets Thief class feature references dice Sneak Attack it applies to the total of all three.

There's a small typo here: the last line should read 'references dice of Sneak Attack'. This is a cool and flavourful ability.


Siphon Secrets (Su): A Secrets Thief can steal secrets from the minds of foes. Beginning at 2nd level a Secrets Thief may when making a successful psychic sneak attack on a target pry from the target the information they know on one topic per 3 dice of sneak attack damage dealt (minimum 1 topic) learning what the target knows about the subject (if in doubt use the target’s knowledge skill), alternatively they may drain 1 prepared spell from the creature (rendering them expended as if cast) per topic they would have learned (beginning with their highest spell level). A creature is not aware of this effect, unless prepared spells are lost.

This... hm. Okay, two things. First, this is a bit vague. What exactly constitutes a 'topic'? Could I learn about a castle's security measures, everything a person knows about a castle, everything a person knows about the entire kingdom, what? Second, I think it would be preferable if you could steal peoples' secrets without needing to stab them. Perhaps you could allow for a special touch attack which can be concealed with Sleight of Hand and deals no damage, but if it would otherwise qualify for sneak attack can be used to Siphon Secrets.


Assimilate Blade (Su): A good spy never allows themselves to be disarmed, and a Secrets Thief is a good spy. Beginning at 3rd level they may absorb a light weapon into their being as a full round action, or eject it again as a standard action. While this weapon is absorbed it is completely hidden to effects. A Secrets Thief may only have two assimilated weapons at a time.

Manifest Blade (Su): A Secrets Thief may also manifest a psychic projection of any weapon hidden within them. This is a free action and manifests a psychic duplicate of the weapon made of pure mental force, with identical enchantments and even considered the same material for all purposes, although it may not look the same. If this psychic manifestation leaves their hand it vanishes swiftly, although remaining long enough to be used as a thrown weapon, and they may only manifest one copy of any given weapon at a time. When wielding a manifested weapon a Secrets Thief may deal non-lethal damage without a penalty to hit and with their sneak attacks, but doing so renders the attack mind-affecting and grants it the ability to ignore 5 points of Damage Reduction.

These two abilities should really be treated together, and taken together they constitute a cool trick. As Vaynor mentions, this combos well with thrown weapons, and it's a nice way of sneaking things past security. Also, freely dealing nonlethal psychic damage is very cool.


Read Thoughts (Su): Beginning at 4th level a Secrets Thief can read the surface thoughts of creatures. By spending a move action you can read the thoughts of a creature within your telepathy range unless they succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + Class Level + Int modifier), it is unaware of this intrusion unless it succeeds at its Will save by 5 or more. If it succeeds its Will save you cannot target it with this ability for 1 minute.
Creatures with animal intelligence (1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts you may pick up, and more intelligent creatures will of course have more complicated thoughts. You pick up on the target’s general mood, anything they are actively thinking about, and general awareness of other creatures nearby. In addition you gain a +4 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks against a target affected by this ability, as well as a +8 bonus to Sense Motive checks. Should a creature whose mind you are reading attack you the warning obtained from this means you are not flat-footed (or surprised; even if they are flat-footed) and gain a +4 insight bonus to AC and saving throws against it. This ability lasts as long as you spend a move action each round to maintain it and the creature remains in up to twice your telepathy range.

Neat. Sustaining it is probably a bit niche in combat, but then, the combat utility isn't the point. I'd suggest that maybe if they fail their save sufficiently miserably you can Siphon Secrets for one topic, or something similar.


Mindsight: At 5th level a Secrets Thief gains MindsightLords of Madness as a bonus feat. If they already have Mindsight they may select another feat they qualify for as a bonus feat.

'kay.


Psi-Blast (Psionic): At 6th level a Secrets Thief gains the ability to manifest a limited number of psionic powers. They gain the ability to manifest Mind Thrust (as a 1st level psionic power) and Ego Whip (as a 2nd level psionic power) as well as 3 power points per Secrets Thief level. Their manifester level with these powers equals their character level, and any save DCs are based off of Intellignece. A Secrets Thief does gain bonus power points for a high Intelligence, but only at a manifester level of their class level as opposed to full character level.

A wee bit underwhelming. Also, Intelligence, not Intellignece. This might be better if one of the granted powers used an attack roll, so you could deliver sneak attacks with it.


Siphon Power Points (Su): At 6th level a Secrets Thief gains the ability to drain psionic power from foes. When they perform a psychic sneak attack on a creature with a psionic power point reserve they may drain 2 power points per die of sneak attack damage dealt, gaining 1 temporary power point per point drained which lasts for 1 minute or until used. They may only siphon power points from a single target once per round.

Cool trick to have, although it's not exactly a game-changer.


Psychic Lobotomy (Su): Beginning at 8th level a Secrets Thief’s attacks may rob their targets of intelligence. When a Secrets Thief performs a psychic sneak attacks against a creature they deal 2 points of
Intelligence damage; a specific creature may only suffer Intelligence damage from this effect once per round regardless of how many times a Secrets Thief sneak attacks them.

Typo: Should be "performs a psychic sneak attack against a creature". Also, that semicolon should be a full stop. Mechanically, this seems sound enough.


Rend Mind Blank (Su): Beginning at 9th level a Secrets Thief’s psychic sneak attack is so devastating it destroys defenses that would stand against it. Whenever a Secrets Thief makes a psychic sneak attack against a target any immunity to mind-affecting effects they may possess, except that granted by being mindless, is suppressed for 3 rounds and any spell or psionic effect granting it is immediately dispelled. This effect is applied before damage would be dealt by a Secrets Thief's psychic sneak attack.

Now this is cool. I like this. It has interesting synergy with an enchantment- or telepathy-heavy party member, who can throw their heavy hits into the gap you've torn open.


Alter Memories (Su): Beginning at 10th level a Secrets Thief can peer deeply into the mind of unconscious creatures. By spending a full-round action they may look into the mind of a touched unconscious creature observing its memories and altering them at a rate of 1 minutes per round spent altering these memories. Given sufficient time a Secrets Thief could alter the entirety of a creature’s life.

I would suggest that altering should take longer than viewing. Also, perhaps you should make a Bluff check when altering memories, so that the target has some small chance to recover through rolling a sufficiently high Sense Motive check.


PLAYING A SECRETS THIEF
A Secret Thief is not about combat, but knowledge. While their continued sneak attack progression, and ability to get around many creatures' immunity to such, aids them in battle, their real power lies elsewhere. A Secret Thief is a scout able to perceive thinking threat with nothing more than their mind, a spy able to discover even a target's most deeply held secrets with a single blow. As such a Secrets Thief lends themselves to gathering information from foes, and a certain extent of the political game, relying more on clever use of knowledge than strict combat ability.
Combat: At low levels a secrets thief fights much like a rogue, relying on stealth or flanking to score sneak attacks. Their psychic sneak attack allows them to strike at normally immune elementals, but it is not till significantly later that they gain a means to harm intelligent undead and constructs with it due to the prevalence of immunity to mind-affecting effects. Their mindsight grants them an edge in combat detection, and their manifest weapons allows them to take greater advantage of thrown weapons by allowing a free action to draw such weapons. Once they obtain Siphon Power Points and Psychic Lobotomy they become more capable against psions and even wizards, a single blow able to strip a foe of several high level spells/powers per day and fueling their own psychic attacks. Psychic Lobotomy even allows them to take down any animal in a single blow, although at a high enough level (13th minimum) that animals are rarely a major threat.
Advancement: Some Secrets Thieves will return to rogue (assuming they entered from it) once they have completed the class, although another option is to dabble in a variety of sneak attack granting prestige classes to obtain the highest sneak attack possible using Rend Mind Blank and Psychic Sneak Attack to sneak attack any intelligent creature and to increase the power of their Steal Secrets and Siphon Power Point abilities. Others might dabble in magical or psionic means of stealth to further emphasize their stealthy capabilities. One option is a few levels of factotum for the Intelligence synergy gaining if nothing more Intelligence to Str and Dex skills.
Resources: A Secrets Thief which is part of an organization may draw upon appropriate resources. One that is part of the cabals of Vecna would have some access to their vast information network (of which they are likely one cell out of many) as well as friendly (for a certain value of friendly) divine and likely arcane arcane casters. A Secret Thief that served one of the Yuan-ti snake cults would likely have easier access to their notably smaller information network as well as priests and their powerful psionic powers. A Secrets Thief working for the less unwholesome (though still rather criminal) thief guilds known to employ them would have all the benefits to be gained from that. Even an independent secrets thief often develops a large range of contacts and allies either through their services as an information broker and spy or through the simple art of blackmail.

SECRETS THIEF IN THE WORLD
"Secret thieves, I don't believe in them, like some psychic gutter rat could reach into my mind and pry out my greatest secrets." - King Efygor, shortly before a failed assassination attempt preceding a battle with surprisingly good military intelligence.

Secrets Thieves do their best to keep a low profile in the world at large, even those who hire their services of information acquisition rarely know the methods and powers involved in it. Those that do, Vecna's cabals, Yuan-ti cults, and rare elite thieves guilds, are also those that are quite good at keeping their secrets; that the most powerful Secrets Thieves are able to make targets forget these secrets should they leak aid them intensely in keeping them. Even so such powers will be noted, and some among the learned know of secrets thieves and such tend to be the same sort as keep good watch of their secrets, though many such keep their existence as their own secret as a tool to be used against their less aware enemies.
Daily Life: Secrets thieves tend to value their own privacy, knowing exactly how much power information about a person's life can give you. Many secrets thieves have little contact with others outside of business, they are quiet and introverted sorts, prone to sitting alone in their favorite bar or pub. That is not to say that all secrets thieves are total introverts, give one the need and they can easily match any other spy in socializing, if not better; it's easy to pick the right words to charm the young duke when one can peer into his mind after all. Even so secrets thieves tend to live solitary and sometimes paranoidly erratic lives, fearing to allow themselves to fall into a pattern that another might take advantage of.
Notables: One could say that notable secrets thieves are rare, at least ones notable for being such; in their line of work it is best simply to have a reputation for success and that their methods and even the details of their person remain a secret. Even so there are many of their kind worth taking note of. One such specimen is Rithla Maruen. She was once captured by illithids, forced to work as their slaves in building some horrible artifact in the honor of their inscrutable god. A psychic rogue she was already psionically active when she was rescued by a band of adventurers who had been hired to root out the cause of a wave of disappearances. Soon after the escape she came face to face with an illithid secrets thief, her own mind reacting to its psychic probe as it pried the identities of her saviors from her mind. Luckily for all involved the illithid spy had acted sloppily, and her new allies included a rather wary archer whose arrows, launched through the window from well beyond the illithid's telepathy struck down the creature. Rithla has sense made it her duty to rouse her fellow elves against the illithid threat growing beneath her country. She has adapted their own powers to her ends, and begun to seek out the illithids' elven agents; of which she has found a horrifying number. Recently Rithla has gone missing, as well as many who were her close allies.

Another notable secrets thief is known simply as the Black Heron. A powerful freelance information broker, he is often employed by various governments across the world; even the church of Vecna respects, and occasionally hires, his skill. Formerly the guild master of the Red Arrows, a powerful coastal thieves' guild that was broken by a crusade which brought the churches of Heironeus and St. Cuthbert into a temporary and close alliance, he had already prepared his new identity for just such an occasion. Few know the natures of his skills, fewer still know his true identity as an immortal elan, and even fewer realize how many identities he has previously held and abandoned as he has manipulated both the growth and government of several neighboring kingdoms. The Black Heron is currently stoking the flames of war, feeding his employers information that will lead to two neighboring kingdoms entering a bloody battle. He stands to make a tidy profit in doing so, do to his own mercantile and mercenary investments.

Organizations: The Blue Shadows, one of the competing thieves' guild of insert major city here, harbor and train many secrets thieves. The Blue Shadows began largely as a smuggling ring, but have since branched out into political maneuverings. They now control several key lords, many of whom have come to rely on their services as information gatherers in their own fiefs, and now have to face the reality that the guild knows far too much of their secrets and illicit dealings and that should they turn against the guild they will probably find themselves destroyed politically. This fear was greatly increased after the guild let it be known that one lord had displeased them, and soon afterwards they faced mass peasant uprisings in their territory, and a truly horrid list of crimes was laid at their feet. The other lords are not sure how many of these crimes were true, but the end result, a year long war to put down the rebellion even after the king's forces moved in and the destruction of the noble house, is enough to make them wary of opposing the guild themselves.

NPC Reaction
This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class.

SECRETS THIEF IN THE GAME
Secrets thieves are similar to rogues. Their psychic sneak attack allows them to more easily affect elementals, and hive minded swarms, but aids in few other combats and their siphon secrets aids against prepared casters that a rogue can fight against to begin with. Instead their abilities mainly grant non-combat applications. Their ability to steal secrets can be used to solve mysteries where they are able to attack someone with key information, and their mind-reading gives a DM many chances to give clues and both are abilities that must be considered in building a mystery.
Adaptation: Secrets thieves could easily be tied to a specific organization in a campaign setting, perhaps given more religious ties and connected to Vecna or another god of information and knowledge (especially one tied to secrets). For a campaign without psionics you could remove the psionic power point and knowledge (psionic) requirements (replacing them with skill, feat, or casting requirements), and remove Psi-blast and Siphon Power Points replacing them with a personal mind blank or brain spiders or scrying/clairvoyance abilities.

I haven't got much to say here - this all seems solid - but my gods, man, you write a lot. o.o

Overall, seems pretty solid, but I think Siphon Secrets shouldn't depend so directly on engaging in combat, and you might want to revisit which powers you give them. Besides that, there's a couple of tweaks I'd suggest, but nothing major. I would definitely want to play this class.

[Ra_Va]

Probably my biggest class project, having some trouble with fitting the Bard Theme but some 'Song of ____' abilities should take care of that, I chose the Bard because TrueSpeak seems to be something spoken aloud so in my mind the bard class fits best with something of that nature... plus the bard doesn't seem to gave a lot of prestige choices. I know I will need to edit the utterance levels just will take time to figure the most non-overpowering way if leveling those out.

Also need to research how one find out somethings 'True Name' and base an ability around that.

...Oh yeah need to think of a name too.

[Techwarrior]

Similarly, would someone who hides knowledge and hoards it for himself so that no one else (except perhaps members of the other contest entries :smallwink:) can make use of it qualify?

Yes.

Everything's looking good people. Try to keep those creative juices flowing, and make sure get everyone else covered in them too! :smalltongue:

[Glimbur]

I'm working on a scout PrC. The obvious movement-based stuff is done, I just have to fill the other half of the class with other stuff. And also include the theme.

[Zaydos]

@Random Person: Thanks, you've given me some stuff to think about, I'm going to try to work on defining topic better, and I think I like the idea that if they fail their save versus read thoughts badly enough you get deeper information, and I'll probably differentiate the time for viewing and altering and think about the whole bluff vs sense motive possibility.

But first, time to look for telepathic attacks that use an attack roll.

[Fortuna]

Anyone want to give me a fuzzy stone fruit? Or failing that, an honest critique and evaluation, please? :smallfrown:

[Vaynor]

Anyone want to give me a fuzzy stone fruit? Or failing that, an honest critique and evaluation, please? :smallfrown:

I'm working on it but I've been kind of busy lately. Should be tomorrow!

[Zaydos]

First things first sorry it took me so long to get to it, been moving furniture all weekend.


Augur

-snip the fluff-

I rarely comment on fluff as it's so subjective, and all I'll say here is I like the class quote.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Profession (Astrologer) 8 ranks*, Spot 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks
Feats: Fortune-Teller**
*Or other similar profession by DM approval
**New feat - see end of post

Something about this class makes me want to say they ought to have Sense Motive instead of Spot or Listen, I think it's a combination of be the Setting Sun maneuvers and cold reading skills.


Class Skills
The Augur's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (each skill taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Fairly standard.


Hit Dice: d6

Little low for melee, but rogues deal with it.


-snip the tables-

Swordsage chassis and standard PrC initiating. Nothing particularly noteworthy, though it does mean either I'm a warblade or crusader (but due to disciplines available probably a warblade) taking a hit to my BAB, or a swordsage taking a major hit to my maneuvers.

The 9 level progression is more notable. I'm not against atypical PrC levels, but I feel it hurts without fractional BAB due to BAB not increasing at 9th level, then again the 9th level powers might be enough to justify that.


Maneuvers: The Augur's heightened senses and pattern-seeking lend themselves well to martial endeavours, and all Augurs instinctively master certain precepts of the Sublime Way even without training. At each odd-numbered level, you gain one new maneuver known from the Diamond Mind or Setting Sun disciplines. you must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full Augur levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.
At first, fourth and seventh levels, you gain an additional maneuver readied per encounter.
Stances Known: At 3rd level and again at 8th level, you can learn a new martial stance from the Diamond Mind or Setting Sun discipline. You must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it.

Typical, no real comments here.


Cast Auspice (Su): A first level Augur learns to seek knowledge in the most unlikely of places. Whether by flipping a coin, rolling a die, or watching the sky for the next bird to pass and seeing if it flies east or west, the Augur seeks knowledge of the advisability of a course of action as a standard action. The player should describe the course of action to the DM, and the DM decides whether the course is auspicious or inauspicious (that is, overall good for the character or bad for the character), and conveys that information to the player. There is a base 5% chance that instead the auspice will return the opposite result. The player should choose a specific form of divination for the character when this ability is first gained - using any other form of divination will increase the reversal chance by 10%. Additionally, at the DM's discretion, if a major factor in the determination is protected by divinations then the chance of reversal rises by 25%. Finally, each time this ability is used the character suffers an additional 10% reversal chance, cumulatively, which reduces by 5% per hour. For each level of Augur above the first, the additional reversal chance for using the ability is reduced by 1%. In no event may the reversal chance ever rise above 50%. See below for reversal chances by level, including modifiers from Auspice Familiarity and True Auspice.

{table=head]Level|Base Reversal Chance|Unfamiliar Method|Shrouded Factor|Increase Per Use

1|5%|+10%|+25%|10%

2|5%|+10%|+25%|9%

3|5%|+10%|+25%|8%

4|5%|+10%|+25%|7%

5|5%|-|+25%|6%

6|5%|-|+25%|5%

7|5%|-|+25%|4%

8|5%|-|+25%|3%

9|0%|-|+25%|0%[/table]

I really like this ability and think it's neat, though once the increase for using it gets down it gets pretty powerful, especially when you hit ninth.


Omen (Su): Starting at second level, an Augur may take a swift action to assess the flow of battle. The Augur's player rolls a number of d2s, in order, equal to the Augur's class level. Each time that the Augur rolls a d20 on their turn, until all of these rolls have been used, they replace the d20 with either 1d10 (if 1 was rolled on the d2) or 1d10+10 (if 2 was rolled on the d2). No effects may modify the d2 rolls. If the Augur rolls a total of 1 on the replacement roll before all other modifiers, but after the modifiers caused by this ability (if any), it is treated as though a natural 1 had been rolled on d20. Likewise, if the Augur rolls a total of 20 on the replacement roll before all other modifiers, it is treated as though a natural 20 had been rolled. If an effect would cause the result to be rerolled, another of the Omen rolls is used rather than rerolling the replacement roll. The Augur may not use this ability again until all of the rolls have been exhausted or they spend one minute in meditation to clear the unused rolls.

Interesting ability, I'm guessing you end up using the low rolls on your initial attack rolls (at high level you can hit on a 2 often enough) and your high rolls you can save for saves or your less accurate attacks. It encourages tactical thinking which is nice.


Master Fortune-Teller (Ex): A second-level Augur may use any kind of divination with the Fortune-Teller feat, not just the few chosen on selecting the feat. Additionally, they may reduce the time required to one minute. If they do not, they gain a +5 competence bonus to the Knowledge (Arcana) check.

'kay.


Detection (Su): A third-level Augur learns to detect all manner of unusual activity. By taking a full minute to attempt some kind of divination - whether a tarot reading, assembling a cat's cradle, or walking around inspecting the patterns of fallen leaves - the Augur may detect (as per the appropriate spell except as noted here) animals or plants, chaos, evil, good, law, magic, poison, secret doors, snares and pits, thoughts, or undead within a radius of fifty feet per class level. The Augur selects any number of these things to detect. They cannot distinguish between the things they choose to detect, but do know at the moment the ritual is concluded how many valid targets there are within range, and how far away each signature is (to within ten feet), as well as rough direction (up, down, left, forward, etc.). Additionally, no further analysis as the relevant spells normally allow is possible.

I like this ability it's pretty neat.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at third level, an Augur can react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If an Augur already has uncanny dodge from a different class they automatically gain improved uncanny dodge instead.

Very much something they need to get.


Sense Divination (Ex): An Augur of fourth level or higher constantly benefits from Detect Scrying, as the spell. Moreover, by concentrating they may at will gain the benefits of Detect Magic, but only with respect to effects of the Divination school, as though under the effects of a Permanent Detect Magic.

Nice and flavorable, might make it Supernatural instead of Extraordinary, though (power-wise it's about the same as the mechanical differences are slim, but flavor-wise it feels supernatural and their other divinatory methods are Su).


Auspice Familiarity: Starting from fifth level, an Augur no longer takes any penalty for using any divination method to cast auspices.

'kay


Greater Omen: When an Augur of fifth level or above uses Omen, rather than rolling d2s they roll d4s, and d20 rolls that Omen replaces are replaced by 1d5 (if the d4 showed 1), 1d5+5 (if the d4 showed 2), 1d5+10 (if the d4 showed 3) or 1d5+15 (if the d4 showed 4).

Like Omen but more so. The low rolls will either still hit, and you'll know it, or are nat ones, the higher rolls you can use for what you really need to succeed or really need to get that crit.


Preternatural Senses (Ex): An Augur of sixth level is so attuned to the connections pervading the world as to be instantly aware upon failing any Spot or Listen check.

Honestly I don't like this ability. Knowing you failed a spot or listen check tells you that there's an ambush coming. It can work for comedic effect in OotS but mechanically it mostly just means you're immune to stealth. I'd rather see them get something like Blindsight or Blindsense (which mostly makes you immune to stealth but there are ways around them *darkstalker*).


Trace Connections (Su): An Augur of seventh level or above may spend a full minute performing a divinatory ritual of some kind to gain the benefits of Locate Creature, Locate Object or Find The Path, with a caster level equal to their class level, at will.

I like the Locate Creature/Object part, but I'm afraid at-will Find the Path is probably too much even with triple its normal casting time.


High Auspice (Su): Augurs of eighth level have learned to cast their auspices for questions of far greater importance than before. By accepting a 10% increase to their reversal rate, taking a full minute, and adding an additional 10% to the reversal rate increase incurred for repeated casting of auspices, the Augur may ask the DM any yes-or-no question, rather than merely asking for guidance on a course of action.

This could be fun, and the reversal rate makes it rather dangerous.


Perfect Omen: On achieving ninth level, the Augur perfects their ability to draw knowledge from the chaos of the world. Their Omen now allows them to roll d20s instead of d4s, and the results of these rolls directly replace appropriate d20 rolls rather than dictating what replacement dice should be rolled.

Nice. This goes a long way towards justifying the BAB loss for a combatant.


True Auspice: A ninth level Augur no longer needs to actively cast auspices, for they have finally mastered the art of reading the world as it unfolds. They may now cast auspices as a free action, suffer no base reversal rate, and reduce the base increase to the reversal rate for casting auspices to zero. They also do not require any overt divination - they can read the world directly, without the crutches of dice or cards.

And this also goes a long way towards justifying it power-wise. I think you'd do good to still have the reversal rate increase by 1% with each use, though, to stop someone using this ability for every single action or decision. It helps keep the ability from just making decisions for the player, which is a good thing.


-snip the fluff

New Feat
Fortune-Teller
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana) 1 rank
Effect: You may attempt to use your arcane knowledge to foretell the future. When you select this feat, you may choose a number of modes of divination (for example astrology, palmistry, reading tea-leaves, or whatever else) equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). You may spend ten minutes with the appropriate tools to attempt to read the fate of a person who is present, so long as they participate in any required ritual (whether willingly or not). At the end of the ten minutes, make a Knowledge (Arcana) check and refer to the table below. If you have an appropriate Profession skill for the type of divination you are using, you may substitute that for Knowledge (Arcana) for this purpose. Note that results on the table are cumulative.

{table=head]Check Result|Effect

15|Gain a +1 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks against the subject, plus another +1 bonus for every three points above 15, for the next 24 hours.

20|Either learn the subject's highest ability score, or learn the class in which the subject has the most levels and the skill for which the subject has the highest modifier (break ties randomly)

25|Learn both of the options given for a result of 20

30|The DM relays one piece of cryptic prophecy or murky secret to you. For every five points by which you exceed a result of 30, the DM relays one more piece of knowledge.[/table]

Normal: You cannot tell fortunes.

I'd honestly only ever take this feat as a prerequisite. It's a neat one, and could be really useful in the right type of game (+6 to several social skills yes!) but for the most part you're unlikely to have the 10 minutes needed and be able to read tea leaves or consult astrological charts while doing so. Still nice flavorful feat.

Overall: I actually really like it, I do think the Find the Path ability is a little much, but I'd probably allow it in a game (possibly with a thing for that one... I've never actually seen anyone cast that spell, but that might be because when I run high level games no one plays cleric).

[sirpercival]

I'm thinking of briefly coming out of retirement with an entry. It's in the works...

[Fortuna]

Yay! Fuzzy stone fruit! :smallbiggrin:


First things first sorry it took me so long to get to it, been moving furniture all weekend.

No problem. I'm just happy you did. :smallsmile:

I rarely comment on fluff as it's so subjective, and all I'll say here is I like the class quote.

Glad you like it!

Something about this class makes me want to say they ought to have Sense Motive instead of Spot or Listen, I think it's a combination of be the Setting Sun maneuvers and cold reading skills.

Hmm. I might add Sense Motive as well as Spot and Listen.

Fairly standard.



Little low for melee, but rogues deal with it.



Swordsage chassis and standard PrC initiating. Nothing particularly noteworthy, though it does mean either I'm a warblade or crusader (but due to disciplines available probably a warblade) taking a hit to my BAB, or a swordsage taking a major hit to my maneuvers.

I'm actually intending to rewrite the maneuver progression to be more like how an Assassin casts - granting a maneuver progression, rather than progressing one - to make room for the intended rogue and factotum entries.

The 9 level progression is more notable. I'm not against atypical PrC levels, but I feel it hurts without fractional BAB due to BAB not increasing at 9th level, then again the 9th level powers might be enough to justify that.

As originally conceived, this was a ten-level PrC. But when I went to write it, I couldn't find enough cool abilities to fill out ten levels, so I snipped it to nine.

Typical, no real comments here.



I really like this ability and think it's neat, though once the increase for using it gets down it gets pretty powerful, especially when you hit ninth.

I deliberately aimed high with the power on this class - I figure 'mundanes' can use it.

Interesting ability, I'm guessing you end up using the low rolls on your initial attack rolls (at high level you can hit on a 2 often enough) and your high rolls you can save for saves or your less accurate attacks. It encourages tactical thinking which is nice.

I... think you've misread this one, actually, or else I've miswritten it. It doesn't apply to saves (unless you're making a save on your turn for some reason) and it doesn't allow you to rearrange the rolls - you take them in the order that they come.

'kay.



I like this ability it's pretty neat.



Very much something they need to get.



Nice and flavorable, might make it Supernatural instead of Extraordinary, though (power-wise it's about the same as the mechanical differences are slim, but flavor-wise it feels supernatural and their other divinatory methods are Su).

Hmm. I might split it into an Extraordinary Detect Scrying and a Supernatural Detect Divination.

'kay



Like Omen but more so. The low rolls will either still hit, and you'll know it, or are nat ones, the higher rolls you can use for what you really need to succeed or really need to get that crit.



Honestly I don't like this ability. Knowing you failed a spot or listen check tells you that there's an ambush coming. It can work for comedic effect in OotS but mechanically it mostly just means you're immune to stealth. I'd rather see them get something like Blindsight or Blindsense (which mostly makes you immune to stealth but there are ways around them *darkstalker*).

What this ability is intended to do is make it almost impossible to completely surprise you without eliminating even mundane stealth as a useful option entirely. Although it will tell you when you're shortly going to get ambushed, unlike Blindsight and Blindsense it doesn't tell you where you're getting ambushed from, and it doesn't prevent people from sniping and hiding or the like. I kind of envision it as being like spider-sense, a generalized danger warning rather than anything else.

I like the Locate Creature/Object part, but I'm afraid at-will Find the Path is probably too much even with triple its normal casting time.

Hmm. You might be right, perhaps. I could limit the Find The Path ability somehow, perhaps.

This could be fun, and the reversal rate makes it rather dangerous.



Nice. This goes a long way towards justifying the BAB loss for a combatant.



And this also goes a long way towards justifying it power-wise. I think you'd do good to still have the reversal rate increase by 1% with each use, though, to stop someone using this ability for every single action or decision. It helps keep the ability from just making decisions for the player, which is a good thing.

Hmm. I might instead keep a base reversal rate - the intention is to make it possible to rely on it as much as you like, but on reflection perhaps it would be better to make it a little unreliable.

I'd honestly only ever take this feat as a prerequisite. It's a neat one, and could be really useful in the right type of game (+6 to several social skills yes!) but for the most part you're unlikely to have the 10 minutes needed and be able to read tea leaves or consult astrological charts while doing so. Still nice flavorful feat.

That's about where I figured it was, so that's good.

Overall: I actually really like it, I do think the Find the Path ability is a little much, but I'd probably allow it in a game (possibly with a thing for that one... I've never actually seen anyone cast that spell, but that might be because when I run high level games no one plays cleric).

Thanks for the critique! You've given me some things to think about.

EDIT: Changed the maneuvers and tweaked True Auspice.

[Zaydos]

And I just want to say that this contest made me make three PrCs. One idea (Spire Knight) that I decided didn't work (and I therefore did not play up the knowledge aspect), one idea (Secrets Thief) that I decided did work, and one idea I got later (Greensteal Infiltrator) that went a completely different direction.

[Ra_Va]

GRRRAAAAAHHHHHH! Almost done although I admit I'm a little iffy about it, even about my fluff which I usually consider my strong point. I'm hoping its not over powered and things are explained well...even though I still need to work on it a bit. Peach Request coming soon, and although I got frustrated and retreated back to bad habits, its been fun.

[Grimsage Matt]

Before I add the Understanding abillities, I'm wondering what you think of The Scholar so far. I probobly need it spell and grammar checked though.

As for the five Understanding spheres, I've got Medicene (healing/recovery), Chemistry (Acid, explosives and utillity), Psycology (social interaction and mind tricks), and Metallurgy (crafting better then masterwork mundane items), and Astronomy (pesudo-divinations, buffs).

Each tier will have a few abillities, but they have a skill pre-reg.

So, thoughts?

[Zaydos]

Glancing over it.

Int requirement for entry is weird.

I like Knowledge is Power makes up a bit for the poor BAB (as it gives them attack bonus as if they had a Good BAB and a bonus to damage).

Expert Scholar: You probably want to cut the bonus to half the ranks you have in a relevant knowledge check (it's easy for some like Local, Religion, or Arcana to be broadly relevant) and specifically noted that even if it falls into multiple categories that you have Expert Scholar for (for example extorting a priest that religiously he has a responsibility to do something for the local populace due to issues in the area for Religion and Local) that only the highest bonus applies. Even then you're looking at a +8 when you finish the class, and a +11 at 19th level. Combine with the option to select these skills as class skills and you are currently looking at huge bonuses to them across the board.

Scholarly Work: Non-adventuring wealth abilities always seem so weird. Not saying it's bad (I add them a fair bit myself and like them) only the observation that they strike me as weird because of how much they're dependent upon how DMs treat down time. Also how does this interact with the cultured feat you grant them as a bonus feat (which doubles the amount) does it supersede it or do you add the multipliers as is normal for 3.X?

So far the class looks to have some neat thematic abilities, and Knowledge is Power grants them what is effectively a +1-5 on saves, AC, attack, and damage against all enemies (you will put 1 rank in Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Local, the Planes, and Religion to cover all creature types) granting them basic combat capability.

[Grimsage Matt]

The Int requirement was a redundancy, I will admit that.

Knowledge is Power is for "fight smarter, not fireball and repeat"

It was based on the Expert feat from a 3rd party book, which gives a flat +2 bonus. Maybe +2 for every 5 ranks?

It was ment to be an NPC PrC, entering from the expert class. And double first, then multiply for non-murderhobo profit.

[Ra_Va]

I'm finished... I actually finished one of these on time. WOOOOOT!!!

While I am sure my class is no where near the top tier of this list, I had fun and PEACH is appreciated.

[Techwarrior]

So many PEACHes and finished entries... Keep up the good work brewers!

[Glimbur]

PrC is up. I'm willing to trade PEACHes with whomever, I'm too lazy at the moment to look through who has requested and who has received. Maybe tomorrow night.

[Vaynor]

Augur PEACH done. Sorry it took me so long.


Augur


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Profession (Astrologer) 8 ranks*, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks, Listen 4 ranks
Feats: Fortune-Teller**
*Or other similar profession by DM approval
**New feat - see end of post

Pretty standard, but I'm worried that entering this class will either nerf the innate maneuvers of a character or replace their casting with fairly limited maneuvers. The class abilities probably make up for that though, so let's get right to it.


Maneuvers: The Augur's heightened senses and pattern-seeking lend themselves well to martial endeavours, and all Augurs instinctively master certain precepts of the Sublime Way even without training. An Augur may learn and ready maneuvers of the Diamond Mind and Setting Sun schools as laid out in the table above. The Augur may ready their maneuvers by meditating for five minutes. Once the Augur has used a maneuver, it is expended, and may not be used again until recovered. The Augur may at any time take a move action to roll 1d20. If they roll at least 11, they may recover an expended maneuver of their choice; otherwise, they recover an expended maneuver at random.
Stances Known: At 3rd level and again at 8th level, you can learn a new martial stance from the Diamond Mind or Setting Sun discipline. You must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it.

I like that their maneuver recovering is a bit random.


Cast Auspice (Su): A first level Augur learns to seek knowledge in the most unlikely of places. Whether by flipping a coin, rolling a die, or watching the sky for the next bird to pass and seeing if it flies east or west, the Augur seeks knowledge of the advisability of a course of action as a standard action. The player should describe the course of action to the DM, and the DM decides whether the course is auspicious or inauspicious (that is, overall good for the character or bad for the character), and conveys that information to the player. There is a base 5% chance that instead the auspice will return the opposite result. The player should choose a specific form of divination for the character when this ability is first gained - using any other form of divination will increase the reversal chance by 10%. Additionally, at the DM's discretion, if a major factor in the determination is protected from divinations then the chance of reversal rises by 25%. Finally, each time this ability is used the character suffers an additional 10% reversal chance, cumulatively, which reduces by 5% per hour. For each level of Augur above the first, the additional reversal chance for using the ability is reduced by 1%. In no event may the reversal chance ever rise above 50%. See below for reversal chances by level, including modifiers from Auspice Familiarity and True Auspice.

Might want to make it a bit more clear what you mean by "specific form of divination". Can this be broad, like "an act of chance" meaning it would apply to both coin flipping and dice rolling, but not watching the world, or does it need to be more specific (e.g. just flipping coins). What kind of action does this ability require? Does the reversal chance get reduced by 5% per hour after the first auspice is cast, or on the hour every hour?


Omen (Su): Starting at second level, an Augur may take a swift action to assess the flow of battle. The Augur's player rolls a number of d2s, in order, equal to the Augur's class level. Each time that the Augur rolls a d20 on their turn, until all of these rolls have been used, they replace the d20 with either 1d10 (if 1 was rolled on the d2) or 1d10+10 (if 2 was rolled on the d2). No effects may modify the d2 rolls. If the Augur rolls a total of 1 on the replacement roll before all other modifiers, but after the modifiers caused by this ability (if any), it is treated as though a natural 1 had been rolled on d20. Likewise, if the Augur rolls a total of 20 on the replacement roll before all other modifiers, it is treated as though a natural 20 had been rolled. If an effect would cause the result to be rerolled, another of the Omen rolls is used rather than rerolling the replacement roll. The Augur may not use this ability again until all of the rolls have been exhausted or they spend one minute in meditation to clear the unused rolls.

There's a few problems with this ability. One, a d2 is a coin, so just say flip a coin. No one has a d2. Second, it's unclear when the d2s are rolled. Are they rolled immediately upon using the swift action to activate this ability, or do you roll a d2 every time you would roll a d20, up to a total number of rolls affected equal to class level? Once activated, does this ability need to be applied to every single roll? Is there any way that the augur is prohibited from using this ability on basically every roll they make? You say this is used to assess the flow of battle, but the augur is not restricted to using this ability during combat and could potentially use a swift action hours before combat starts and have all the rolls saved up, or even have this ability modify rolls outside of battle. In my opinion, this ability should be usable once per encounter, the modified rolls are removed when combat ends, and it only takes a standard action to remove existing modified rolls. That way you can use it in combat without being forced into using the ability the entire time it lasts (1 minute is a long time in combat) but they are no longer able to sustain it whenever they're in combat.


Master Fortune-Teller (Ex): A second-level Augur may use any kind of divination with the Fortune-Teller feat, not just the few chosen on selecting the feat. Additionally, they may reduce the time required to one minute. If they do not, they gain a +5 competence bonus to the Knowledge (Arcana) check.

Decent boost, nothing much to say.


Detection (Su): A third-level Augur learns to detect all manner of unusual activity. By taking a full minute to attempt some kind of divination - whether a tarot reading, assembling a cat's cradle, or walking around inspecting the patterns of fallen leaves - the Augur may detect (as per the appropriate spell except as noted here) animals or plants, chaos, evil, good, law, magic, poison, secret doors, snares and pits, thoughts, or undead within a radius of fifty feet per class level. The Augur selects any number of these things to detect. They cannot distinguish between the things they choose to detect, but do know at the moment the ritual is concluded how many valid targets there are within range, and how far away each signature is (to within ten feet), as well as rough direction (up, down, left, forward, etc.). Additionally, no further analysis as the relevant spells normally allow is possible.

Is there a reason this is limited to snares and pits instead of just traps in general? Letting it affect, at least, all non-magical traps could make this class a lot more interesting for rogue-types. Overall, though, I really like this ability. Works within the flavor of the class well while actually providing a good boost to the character's usefulness in a party. But, like I said, this usefulness is very much going to overlap with the rogue which is why I think this should include traps. I can see a rogue/augur or swordsage/augur being a decent addition to a party.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at third level, an Augur can react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If an Augur already has uncanny dodge from a different class they automatically gain improved uncanny dodge instead.

Saw this coming a mile back! Works well with the flavor, not much to say, moving on.


Sense Scrying (Ex): An Augur of fourth level or higher constantly benefits from Detect Scrying, as the spell.

Detect Divination (Su): An Augur of fourth level or above can perceive divination magic with but a moment's concentration. This acts like a permanent Detect Magic spell, but only with respect to magics of the Divination school.

Despite their inability to actually cast divination magic, this gives them a lot of flavor despite not adding too much power. I like it.


Auspice Familiarity: Starting from fifth level, an Augur no longer takes any penalty for using any divination method to cast auspices.

By any divination method, do you mean they can do whatever they want? Or any recognized method of divination within the DMs discretion?


Greater Omen: When an Augur of fifth level or above uses Omen, rather than rolling d2s they roll d4s, and d20 rolls that Omen replaces are replaced by 1d5 (if the d4 showed 1), 1d5+5 (if the d4 showed 2), 1d5+10 (if the d4 showed 3) or 1d5+15 (if the d4 showed 4).

I'm not a fan of this. For one, you have the problem, again, of using dice that either don't exist or are very, very uncommon. I don't know anyone with a d5. This gets a little better for the best result and a little worse for the worst result. I think you should make it a little more favorable, perhaps. Maybe on a 1 it's still 1d10, but a 2 is 1d10+5 and a 3-4 is still 1d10+10. That way it's not much more powerful, but doesn't get worse in any way and helps to mitigate the 50% chance to have a bad roll. A 1 will get you a subpar roll, while a 2 guarantees at least middle of the pack (6-15) and a 3-4 guarantees a high-end roll (11-20). This ability definitely requires more restrictions though, as I mentioned above in the Omen description.


Preternatural Senses (Ex): An Augur of sixth level is so attuned to the connections pervading the world as to be instantly aware upon failing any Spot or Listen check.

I like this! No bonus to spot or listen, but they at least know when they should have seen something. Interesting.


Trace Connections (Su): An Augur of seventh level or above may spend a full minute performing a divinatory ritual of some kind to gain the benefits of Locate Creature, Locate Object or Find The Path, with a caster level equal to their class level, at will.

They might not cast, but they certainly get access to most things someone with access to divination spells would get.


High Auspice (Su): Augurs of eighth level have learned to cast their auspices for questions of far greater importance than before. By accepting a 10% increase to their reversal rate, taking a full minute, and adding an additional 10% to the reversal rate increase incurred for repeated casting of auspices, the Augur may ask the DM any yes-or-no question, rather than merely asking for guidance on a course of action.

This has game-breaking potential, especially as early as 13th level. This is more powerful than some level-9 spells. Maybe it could only be used if their current reversal rate is below a certain %?


Perfect Omen: On achieving ninth level, the Augur perfects their ability to draw knowledge from the chaos of the world. Their Omen now allows them to roll d20s instead of d4s, and the results of these rolls directly replace appropriate d20 rolls rather than dictating what replacement dice should be rolled.

Does this mean they get to reroll a d20 instead of modifying it? Needs to be more clear (especially since it's not clear in the original description of omens whether they are allowed to be activated at will or not).


True Auspice: A ninth level Augur no longer needs to actively cast auspices, for they have finally mastered the art of reading the world as it unfolds. They may now cast auspices as a free action and reduce the base increase to the reversal rate for casting auspices to zero. They also do not require any overt divination - they can read the world directly, without the crutches of dice or cards.

What action were they before? Saying "reduce the base increase to reversal rate" is confusing since there's a "base reversal rate" stat. Instead just say "reduce the increase to reversal rate" to be more clear.

[Adam1949]

If I'm going to be honest, I don't think I did anything even approaching a 'good job' on my entry. Would it be possible for me to rescind my entry?

[sirpercival]

I'm not going to be able to finish in time... :(

[Grimsage Matt]

I think I'm going to replace the Understandings with "A Bonus Feat you qualify for" and "a Skill Trick you qualify for".

It's meant to be a Prestige class for NPC's and/or lower magic Sages anyway so it should work.

[Temotei]

If I'm going to be honest, I don't think I did anything even approaching a 'good job' on my entry. Would it be possible for me to rescind my entry?

You enter at your own will, as you can leave at your own will. Just because you posted an entry doesn't mean you have to keep it there. See last contest; the harbringer of...uh. Something sun. The apocalyptic sun? Anyway, that one was taken down before voting.

But you could also work on the entry until it fits what you want it to be.

[Fortuna]

Oooh, more fuzzy stone fruit!


Pretty standard, but I'm worried that entering this class will either nerf the innate maneuvers of a character or replace their casting with fairly limited maneuvers. The class abilities probably make up for that though, so let's get right to it.



I like that their maneuver recovering is a bit random.

It's intended to synergize with Omen, mostly.

Might want to make it a bit more clear what you mean by "specific form of divination". Can this be broad, like "an act of chance" meaning it would apply to both coin flipping and dice rolling, but not watching the world, or does it need to be more specific (e.g. just flipping coins). What kind of action does this ability require? Does the reversal chance get reduced by 5% per hour after the first auspice is cast, or on the hour every hour?

Ah, yeah, could do with some clarification. I'll tidy that up. It's a standard action, as it says in its description, and the reduction is since the last use (as I'll clarify).

There's a few problems with this ability. One, a d2 is a coin, so just say flip a coin. No one has a d2. Second, it's unclear when the d2s are rolled. Are they rolled immediately upon using the swift action to activate this ability, or do you roll a d2 every time you would roll a d20, up to a total number of rolls affected equal to class level? Once activated, does this ability need to be applied to every single roll? Is there any way that the augur is prohibited from using this ability on basically every roll they make? You say this is used to assess the flow of battle, but the augur is not restricted to using this ability during combat and could potentially use a swift action hours before combat starts and have all the rolls saved up, or even have this ability modify rolls outside of battle. In my opinion, this ability should be usable once per encounter, the modified rolls are removed when combat ends, and it only takes a standard action to remove existing modified rolls. That way you can use it in combat without being forced into using the ability the entire time it lasts (1 minute is a long time in combat) but they are no longer able to sustain it whenever they're in combat.

I'll clear up the wording here, too - but a number of things that you seem to think are bugs are features. There is nothing preventing you from using this on every roll you ever make, so long as it's on-turn - the flow of battle thing is fluff from an earlier draft, which I will replace. But as to ending it early in combat... I'm not actually clear on why you think this would be a good idea, actually. Could you elaborate?

Decent boost, nothing much to say.

Is there a reason this is limited to snares and pits instead of just traps in general? Letting it affect, at least, all non-magical traps could make this class a lot more interesting for rogue-types. Overall, though, I really like this ability. Works within the flavor of the class well while actually providing a good boost to the character's usefulness in a party. But, like I said, this usefulness is very much going to overlap with the rogue which is why I think this should include traps. I can see a rogue/augur or swordsage/augur being a decent addition to a party.

Er... not a good one. Mostly, it's because there is no core Detect Traps spell. I'll edit it.

Saw this coming a mile back! Works well with the flavor, not much to say, moving on.

Despite their inability to actually cast divination magic, this gives them a lot of flavor despite not adding too much power. I like it.

By any divination method, do you mean they can do whatever they want? Or any recognized method of divination within the DMs discretion?

Anything they want. I'll clear up in the text.

I'm not a fan of this. For one, you have the problem, again, of using dice that either don't exist or are very, very uncommon. I don't know anyone with a d5. This gets a little better for the best result and a little worse for the worst result. I think you should make it a little more favorable, perhaps. Maybe on a 1 it's still 1d10, but a 2 is 1d10+5 and a 3-4 is still 1d10+10. That way it's not much more powerful, but doesn't get worse in any way and helps to mitigate the 50% chance to have a bad roll. A 1 will get you a subpar roll, while a 2 guarantees at least middle of the pack (6-15) and a 3-4 guarantees a high-end roll (11-20). This ability definitely requires more restrictions though, as I mentioned above in the Omen description.

A d5 is just a d10 mod 5, or half a d10 round up. I guess I could clarify that. But your suggestion for modifying it flies in the face of the purpose of the ability, which is a predictive tool, not a modifying one - in time-critical situations, this doesn't actually modify the statistics of your rolls at all, which is important to me.

I like this! No bonus to spot or listen, but they at least know when they should have seen something. Interesting.

They might not cast, but they certainly get access to most things someone with access to divination spells would get.

This has game-breaking potential, especially as early as 13th level. This is more powerful than some level-9 spells. Maybe it could only be used if their current reversal rate is below a certain %?

More powerful than Contact Other Plane, which came online four levels ago? It's comparable to using Contact Other Plane to get in touch with a greater deity, but asks fewer questions and avoids the risk of going insane, and is more prone to giving incorrect answers with divination protection in play.

Does this mean they get to reroll a d20 instead of modifying it? Needs to be more clear (especially since it's not clear in the original description of omens whether they are allowed to be activated at will or not).

Again, I'll clarify in the original text.

What action were they before? Saying "reduce the base increase to reversal rate" is confusing since there's a "base reversal rate" stat. Instead just say "reduce the increase to reversal rate" to be more clear.

They were a standard action, as noted in the original description. I'll tweak that wording.

[Glimbur]

Looks like the only classes not to have a PEACH yet are the Troubador and the Flow Walker. I can't very well PEACH my own, so I'll take a look at the Troubador.

Entry is very Bard, with the Truenaming feat and also mounted combat for... we'll see what that does, the rest seems to hang together well.

Skill list looks a lot like Bard, you are missing the relevant ability for Disguise (picky detail). 4+ skill points is less than bard, which I would guess is because they are working harder at truenaming.

d8 hit die is bigger than truenamer or bard. Not a big deal, but unusual.

1/2 BAB and only good Will save says wizard. Or truenamer.

Your utterances start out 5 levels behind a pure truenamer, but by the end you are using higher level utterances in Evolving Mind and Perfected Map and an equal level truenamer. Not sure if that is a balance problem, but it is interesting.

Knowing your personal Truename is a nice perk.

The TrueNamed Mount is probably why you need mounted combat. It's a little fuzzy though; how many hit dice does it have? What does the Water Walk feat do? What action is it to summon or unsummon? Can the gryphon fly? Do a little more reading on the Paladin Mount, as that seems to be a similar ability.

Truename Research is a useful feat, but all you get that level is a limited feat and another utterance. Not quite dead, but limited.

Zone of Divulgence has some nice knowledge/divination powers, but it requires learning the True Name of a location, which I don't see rules for in Tome of Magic or in this class. Also, we are two levels in with no bard-type abilities yet.

Sekhen's Left Hand is powerful but limited and specific to targeting Truenamers (and the occasional other Truename user). Is this intended to grant only knowledge of personal truenames the target knows, or do you also learn all of their utterances? Learning their utterances would be like a sorcerer stealing spells known from someone, which is significantly stronger than the Truenamer.

Song of Distant Steps is useful, but I expected it to consume a bardic music use. As it stands it seems to be unlimited in uses/day.

See the Named is limited scrying, but it offers no save which is powerful. Probably fine.

Song of Restored Health should be more explicit about the DC on the Truespeak check; I assume it is the same as targeting yourself normally.

Song of Perfected Movement is fine balance-wise.

Song of the Thunder Drake is very powerful. You get it at 8th level, meaning 13th character level, so it does 13*2 or 26d6 (average 91) sonic damage in a 20' cone at a very high DC (10+8+~5+13, or 36ish). At this same level, a wizard gets Prismatic Spray, which is a 60' cone that offers a save of (10+7+~6, or 23ish) and does 20, 40, or 80 damage in a more commonly resisted element. It also has several SoD's and the potential for two effects, but it is random. And it costs a 7th level spell slot, while Song of the Thunder Drake is at-will.

Alter Personal Truename is a powerful defensive ability against truenamers, and seems to be against all of the fluff of true naming. If this is possible, why have powerful outsiders not done it?

Seken's Right Hand is spelled differently than Sekhen's Left Hand. Also it just seems spiteful, and against fluff. Their spirit should already be at an afterlife, and the body is only related to it through resurrection type magic. Again, this really inconveniences Truenamers and is otherwise pointless.

All in all, this class feels disjointed. You get a mount and then no other features that relate to it, and despite the bardic entry none of the class features really feel bard-y. Some of them are called 'song', but they don't take bardic music uses and some of them (distant steps and perfected movement) do not feel bard-y at all. There are several class features which are really only effective against true namers, which does not seem to be reflected in the class flavor text. And Song of the Thunder Drake is just too good.

When I heard bard/truenamer hybrid PrC, I was expecting using bard song to spread beneficial utterances to more allies than normal and maybe spending bard music uses to get bonuses to truenaming.

[Ra_Va]

Looks like the only classes not to have a PEACH yet are the Troubador and the Flow Walker. I can't very well PEACH my own, so I'll take a look at the Troubador.

Entry is very Bard, with the Truenaming feat and also mounted combat for... we'll see what that does, the rest seems to hang together well.

Skill list looks a lot like Bard, you are missing the relevant ability for Disguise (picky detail).

Gah! always something I miss.

4+ skill points is less than bard, which I would guess is because they are working harder at truenaming.

That was indeed the intention.

d8 hit die is bigger than truenamer or bard. Not a big deal, but unusual.

I figured going up a single HD wouldn't hurt anything, Acolyte of the Ego Prestige class also is d8.

1/2 BAB and only good Will save says wizard. Or truenamer.

Trying to combine flavors is always interesting when it comes to doing appropriate saves, Figured being closer to a truenamer was more important in the saves.

Your utterances start out 5 levels behind a pure truenamer, but by the end you are using higher level utterances in Evolving Mind and Perfected Map and an equal level truenamer. Not sure if that is a balance problem, but it is interesting.

I'm honestly not sure about the balance issue either, but I figured as a truenaming prestige class with 10 levels coming from a class with no truename experience, someone would have to do a decent amount of catching up to a pure truenamer so I hoped giving them slight increase in maximum utterances would not be an issue.

Knowing your personal Truename is a nice perk.

The Ability seemed to be a standard among any truenaming class

The TrueNamed Mount is probably why you need mounted combat. It's a little fuzzy though; how many hit dice does it have? What does the Water Walk feat do? What action is it to summon or unsummon? Can the gryphon fly? Do a little more reading on the Paladin Mount, as that seems to be a similar ability.


Did as you said, edited summoning to a fullround action and dismissal as a free action.
The gryphon can fly but I am not sure how to put that into words other then saying its a gryphon
Fixed the hit die a bit
Water Walk is a racial feat that allows one to walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across liquid as if it were normal ground, works like a permanent 'Water Walk' Cleric spell.


Truename Research is a useful feat, but all you get that level is a limited feat and another utterance. Not quite dead, but limited.

Its honestly there more to go with fluff.

Zone of Divulgence has some nice knowledge/divination powers, but it requires learning the True Name of a location, which I don't see rules for in Tome of Magic or in this class. Also, we are two levels in with no bard-type abilities yet.

There really does not seem to be any rules on truenames in general that I've seen, and this is honestly why I added the Sekhen's Left Hand ability.

Sekhen's Left Hand is powerful but limited and specific to targeting Truenamers (and the occasional other Truename user). Is this intended to grant only knowledge of personal truenames the target knows, or do you also learn all of their utterances? Learning their utterances would be like a sorcerer stealing spells known from someone, which is significantly stronger than the Truenamer.

Again this was probably an ability to go along with fluff, the intention was to only grant the knowledge of truenames, is there a way I could re-write it to make that more obvious? Honestly I went back and forth in my want for utterances too but figured as a level 4 ability that was kind of much even for a prestige class.

Song of Distant Steps is useful, but I expected it to consume a bardic music use. As it stands it seems to be unlimited in uses/day.

Actually a really good idea. I hope I can change that well enough.

See the Named is limited scrying, but it offers no save which is powerful. Probably fine.

I figured that was the case with this ability, if nothing else I figured this would really go well with the mount, probably more useful with the gryphon then the others.

Song of Restored Health should be more explicit about the DC on the Truespeak check; I assume it is the same as targeting yourself normally.

True I will edit that in

Song of Perfected Movement is fine balance-wise.

Glad to hear it.

Song of the Thunder Drake is very powerful. You get it at 8th level, meaning 13th character level, so it does 13*2 or 26d6 (average 91) sonic damage in a 20' cone at a very high DC (10+8+~5+13, or 36ish). At this same level, a wizard gets Prismatic Spray, which is a 60' cone that offers a save of (10+7+~6, or 23ish) and does 20, 40, or 80 damage in a more commonly resisted element. It also has several SoD's and the potential for two effects, but it is random. And it costs a 7th level spell slot, while Song of the Thunder Drake is at-will.

Either going to make this a 3/day ability or give it an utterance or bardic music cost

Alter Personal Truename is a powerful defensive ability against truenamers, and seems to be against all of the fluff of true naming. If this is possible, why have powerful outsiders not done it?

Stole this from the 7th level ability of Acolyte of the Ego, at 9th level the ability goes to a minus -8 on the Acolyte so I hopes putting the 7th level ability as a level 9 balanced it out some.

Seken's Right Hand is spelled differently than Sekhen's Left Hand. Also it just seems spiteful, and against fluff. Their spirit should already be at an afterlife, and the body is only related to it through resurrection type magic. Again, this really inconveniences Truenamers and is otherwise pointless.


Thank you for telling me about the misspelling
This ability is modeled after the Bereft's 'Word of Unmaking' though I admit it is far less useful
The ability was meant to be used within minuets of the corpse dieing and was honestly unaware if a soul enters the afterlife the moment it dies or if it lingers
I worried about it only inconveniencing truenamers, but was hoping the fact it was a severe inconvience to balance it out. Any ideas in how this would be effective to more then just truenamers?


All in all, this class feels disjointed.

Understandable

You get a mount and then no other features that relate to it,

As I said above 'See the named' is somewhat connected to mounts, but honestly its more of I always put Mounts or familiars in my classes for some reason.

and despite the bardic entry none of the class features really feel bard-y. Some of them are called 'song', but they don't take bardic music uses and some of them (distant steps and perfected movement) do not feel bard-y at all.

I probably rushed the bard-y feeling more then I should have, and Perfected movement was more for the image of a guy singing softly to himself while walking up a wall Brandon Lee-Style.

There are several class features which are really only effective against true namers, which does not seem to be reflected in the class flavor text.

I tried to get across that these guys would regularly most likely go up against others that know true-name magic, so I can only blame myself for that

And Song of the Thunder Drake is just too good.

As said above I am going to make this cost a Bardic Music Usage or limit to to 3/day.

When I heard bard/truenamer hybrid PrC, I was expecting using bard song to spread beneficial utterances to more allies than normal and maybe spending bard music uses to get bonuses to truenaming.

I will probably make a 1rst level ability that causes utterance to effect all within 30 Feet away from troubadour. any tips?




Thank you for peaching me :D I would help you but as you can see I'm lucky if I know what I am doing.

[Vaynor]

Oooh, more fuzzy stone fruit!

I guess I just must have missed where it said it's a standard action. I read it at least 3-4 times and couldn't find that. Good that you clarified it though, if I had trouble other people are bound to (or I really am that dense).

I didn't mean they were bugs so much as issues with the ability working well. There were mostly some things that were confusing or contradictory about the description. Using it on every roll you ever make is a little too strong, in my opinion. But the drawbacks are pretty heavy, since a 1-10 roll sucks in most cases.

How does Greater Omen make it a predictive tool? Do you roll all of the d2s/d4s ahead of time, thus knowing the order your rolls will either be good or suck? This is not clear in the original description. However, if this is the case, I like the ability a lot more and it becomes a lot less powerful and more just a solid boost with a lot of good flavor.

I might have overreacted on the power of High Auspice, and if the reversal rate only decreases every hour an auspice hasn't been used, then it's not that bad. It's definitely penalizing enough that it can't be spammed, which is good. With the other changes to Auspice, this ability seems fine and very nice.

[Fortuna]

Omen, Greater Omen and Perfect Omen all involve essentially 'pre-rolling' some randomness, giving you progressively better hints as to your future luck. All the d2/d4/d20 rolls are made ahead of time. I'm not sure how better to word it to make that clear - any advice?

[Vaynor]

Omen, Greater Omen and Perfect Omen all involve essentially 'pre-rolling' some randomness, giving you progressively better hints as to your future luck. All the d2/d4/d20 rolls are made ahead of time. I'm not sure how better to word it to make that clear - any advice?

Add clarifications like "roll d2s immediately and use them for future rolls in the order they were rolled."

[Fortuna]

Add clarifications like "roll d2s immediately and use them for future rolls in the order they were rolled."

Tweaked it some. How is it now?

[Vaynor]

Much more clear! I understand the ability a bit more now. Also, just curious, would this ability apply to immediate actions?

[Fortuna]

It only applies to on-turn actions, so it won't affect immediate actions.

[Techwarrior]

This contest is over, now for Voting! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17027102)

Great work people. I'll get a contest up by Friday, but I'm currently aiming for Wednesday or Thursday. Any suggestions?

[Temotei]

This contest is over, now for Voting! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17027102)

Great work people. I'll get a contest up by Friday, but I'm currently aiming for Wednesday or Thursday. Any suggestions?

Um. September 6th? :smalltongue:

[Fortuna]

I presume you're asking for suggestions on theme. In which case... hm...

How about animals? Lots of interesting places you can go with that. Either animals in general or some specific animal.

[Techwarrior]

Um. September 6th? :smalltongue:

Hush now. :smalltongue:

Fixed.

[Vaynor]

Animals are good, or maybe a more general nature theme (or plants maybe).

[Adam1949]

I say animals, that sounds like fun!

[Zaydos]

I'd suggest: Dungeons.

It's a fairly broad theme, but... there are so many dragon-based things, but how much is there built for dungeons? The game has Dungeons in its name.

[Vaynor]

I like that! My vote is now dungeons or plants.

Also, I just realized I never removed a level of casting from the Befuddled Mage like I intended to. Oh well.

[malonkey1]

Weak But Skilled: Classes with not a lot of up-front power, but who are good at using what they have effectively.

[Grimsage Matt]

I have a Wild Cohort/familiar idea. But the thing is, the player is not the spell caster, the little pug is.


So, I vote animal. (and nobody steal my idea!)

[Temotei]

I vote dungeons.

[MoleMage]

I vote dungeons.

I vote dragons.

[malonkey1]

I vote dragons.

"A dragon, in a dungeon? Doesn't that seem a bit on the nose?"

[Zaydos]

Preliminary question: do insects count as animals, or only creatures with the animal type?

Is it bad that despite suggesting Dungeons I'm having trouble thinking of a satisfying PrC with that theme (current idea is the Ecologist who studies dungeon ecology!).

[malonkey1]

Preliminary question: do insects count as animals, or only creatures with the animal type?

Is it bad that despite suggesting Dungeons I'm having trouble thinking of a satisfying PrC with that theme (current idea is the Ecologist who studies dungeon ecology!).

Oh, a dungeon-digging monster class, to explain where all these dungeons come from!

A daring, Indiana-Jones-meets-Tomb-Raider looter of tombs!

A madman who has attuned himself to a specific dungeon, and gains powers while in it!

Feel free to use any of these if this is the theme.

[Zaydos]

Oh, a dungeon-digging monster class, to explain where all these dungeons come from!

A daring, Indiana-Jones-meets-Tomb-Raider looter of tombs!

A madman who has attuned himself to a specific dungeon, and gains powers while in it!

Feel free to use any of these if this is the theme.

Those two I dismissed immediately because every official dungeon PrC I can think of falls into one of these two. I might end up falling back onto one of the two*. The first one has more room for exploration but is about as serious as a class that explores how they maintain their ecosystems (which in older editions they actually were supposed to which is why you have carrion crawlers, otyughs, etc).

Exploring the idea of dungeons I might mess with something inspired by the maze spell and make a psychoportation based PrC that banishes foes to extradimensional dungeons. Or someone who gains powers based on certain organisms that are specifically adapted to dungeon ecosystems (Carrion Crawlers, Otyughs, Green Slime, etc). Or maybe a dungeon guard prc intended for orcs/goblins/gnolls.

*One could argue for Dwarven Defender and the ToB Dwarf PrC also being dungeon based classes as both are dedicated to fighting styles based around being in small cramped corridors underground.

[Just to Browse]

I vote Dungeons.

[Techwarrior]

Dungeons it is, and I'll save Creature Feature for another (possibly next) contest.

I'll go post that now.

[Vaynor]

I've posted my PrC, the Root Walker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17129068#post17129068). Any thoughts?

[The Dragon]

I've an idea, actually. It involves the insectoid template from SS.

I need to think more.

[Techwarrior]

Legend tells of a legendary contest, whose competing skills were the stuff of legends!

This contest has been lost to history, but several keepers of secrets have managed to unearth it, and the winners of this contest.

In this quest for forbidden lore, it became quite obvious that the amazing beardliness of the Befuddled Mage (Vaynor) was without compare, and it won over an astonishing amount of votes from our fellow scholars (bearded or otherwise) gathered here tonight.

Not many could keep their secrets guarded from the Secret Thief (Zaydos) though, not even those judging. It used these tidbits of knowledge to launch itself into second place, earning quite the honor. Whether honor is accepted currency amongst the thieves is still an unknown to this speaker.

The noble art of divination gave our third place winner it's seat in the house tonight, the Augur (Random_Person). I personally had an Augur roll up my fortune for this week, and I seem to have been cursed by the Work-Fairy. Figures.

Good job to all who participated, it was wonderful seeing the turnout, and everyone try and drum up interest in the next contest!

-Techwarrior

[Vaynor]

Thanks for the votes guys! It was a good contest.

Looking towards the current contest, does anyone want to get some PEACHes going? I'd happy trade a fruit for a fruit.

[Techwarrior]

Due to the forums going off for a while, I'm going to extend the Contest through to the end of this weekend. It will close on the morning of Monday, April 7th

[Techwarrior]

Voting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340051-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLVI-Kick-in-the-Door!&p=17270105) is up. Go vote for our three contestants!

Let's discuss the next contest. I'd like to think of something big and exciting to get a lot more people drawn back in.

[Vaynor]

It's a little late, but I updated the table for my entry so it should be showing as it should instead of a garbled mess. Hopefully that's ok to do after the deadline.

[Techwarrior]

I'll allow table fixes, but no other edits.

[Lord_Gareth]

Voting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340051-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLVI-Kick-in-the-Door!&p=17270105) is up. Go vote for our three contestants!

Let's discuss the next contest. I'd like to think of something big and exciting to get a lot more people drawn back in.

Easter is coming up, isn't it? The great festival of Spring, still happily holding onto its roots even as it's been reinvented into a modern holiday. Rather more importantly, it (and other signs) point to spring being here - new year, new life, new chances.

Why not do the contest on rebirth?

[Seerow]

If you're looking for more attention, it might help to ask for mod permission to get a new discussion thread going. Alternatively get ErrantX to be active and update the OP again. The OP has had the "It's Cold Outside" listed as the current ongoing contest for the last 4 months, and not many people are going to want to dig through a 25 page thread to get an idea of what's going on. (And even when I scanned through the thread, at first I thought the Dungeon theme was the vote for the next contest, not the current one, until the link for the voting thread went up).

[dragonjek]

Have the PrC Contests been shut down and no one told me? It's been months... I don't normally engage in thread necromancy, but maybe it can be thread resurrection instead?

Hopefully, this post gets the contest-people's attention. Please don't make me be the one to start the next contest. It will end horribly and be very traumatic for everyone involved (but mostly for me).

[The Witch-King]

Have the PrC Contests been shut down and no one told me? It's been months... I don't normally engage in thread necromancy, but maybe it can be thread resurrection instead?

Hopefully, this post gets the contest-people's attention. Please don't make me be the one to start the next contest. It will end horribly and be very traumatic for everyone involved (but mostly for me).

Well -- I hope someone will start them up again. I was curious to see what the latest topic was and had to dig just to find the chat thread. Surely someone will take up the torch -- don't let the PrC Contest die!

[Techwarrior]

I will request mod permission to start a new thread. Apologies. It'd been so long since I'd seen a post that I kind of gave up on it, and then an ENTIRE contest went by with not even a single submission and I had all of the sads. :smallfrown:

[Vaynor]

Go ahead and start a new thread, it's no issue at all. I'll just lock this one now, and link to the new one when you start it.