[PF] Dodge Prereq Feats

[BTB]

To make things brief, I am a melee bard who has been coerced into being the party tank (And thus taking dodge) by the rest of the party. I don't mind this, and can make a decent build for it, but Dodge just feels so useless on it's own, I was wondering what some of the better feats I could use it for a prerequisite were.

[Eldonauran]

If you must take Dodge, take one of the other feats that take the place of Dodge.

Midnight Dodge (Magic of the Incarnum): Gives you a essentia point and allows you to invest it into the feat to get a dodge bonus (that you can increase with more essentia points as you get higher level). This feat explicitly says that you can use this feat in place of Dodge as a prerequisite.

There are other feats, but I am less familiar with them than Midnight Dodge. I am sure someone else can locate it.

[nyjastul69]

Out of curiosity, why are you compelled to take dodge?

[Eldonauran]

Ahah, found them:

Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/expeditious-dodge--990/), Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/magic-of-incarnum--74/midnight-dodge--1940/), and Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/desert-wind-dodge--589/).

EDIT: Bonus! A link to the Dodge (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/dodge--681/) feat. Contains links to other feats that require dodge as a prerequisite.

[Occasional Sage]

Ahah, found them:

Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/expeditious-dodge--990/), Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/magic-of-incarnum--74/midnight-dodge--1940/), and Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/desert-wind-dodge--589/).

EDIT: Bonus! A link to the Dodge (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/dodge--681/) feat. Contains links to other feats that require dodge as a prerequisite.

You're assuming 3.5 material is allowed; I wouldn't be too confident of that though, given the (PF) tag rather than (3.P) or such.

[Eldonauran]

You're assuming 3.5 material is allowed; I wouldn't be too confident of that though, given the (PF) tag rather than (3.P) or such.

But ... *facepalm* ...

How did I miss the [PF] tag!?!?

Seriously need a face-palm smilie.

[BTB]

Out of curiosity, why are you compelled to take dodge?

Because it's quite likely I will be the only character in melee, and while I could just play a fighter, I'd rather be trying to make a Bard good for it. So far I'm using a Dervish of dawn who makes heavy use of the spell Allegro.

[Callin]

Are you allowed to use any of the 3rd Party stuff on the SRD?

[BTB]

With my GM, likely no, but I also have quite a bit of pull with him (I help him GM some other games), and in our games pretty much every character is allowed one silly ability as long as it's based on something pre-existing. So i may be able to argue for something.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You don't like a +1 touch AC then?

Actually I wouldn't say this is the best persay but take Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike (stop laughing!) and then Crane Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style) and Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat).

Cast Compel Hostility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/compel-hostility), full defense, and the first attack to get through you just ignore with Crane Wing.

[Callin]

I was wondering because there are quite a few Dodge type feats that are 3rd Party. Some of em are actually decent but it takes quite a bit of searching through the crap to find em.

[BTB]

Soras, I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing. Though that would be pretty good, especially if I went Duelist later on.

Callin. Know any off hand, or must I start digging?

[Callin]

Agile Defense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/tripod-machine/combat-feats---3rd-party---tripod-machine/agile-defense-combat) I love this feat.

or maybe that was the only one... :smallannoyed: I just looked through em to sorta help out and I couldnt find what I was remembering. Maybe you can find some but that one feat is not half bad.

[BTB]

Well, I'll only be lightly armored, so I can definitely do worse than that scaling AC. Thanks.

[Callin]

No Probs. Wish I could of helped more.

[BTB]

Honestly, I've looked pretty thoroughly, not sure how much more there IS to do with dodge. But, it's necessary for my role, and at least I can still have fun being one of my beloved Bards.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Soras, I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing. Though that would be pretty good, especially if I went Duelist later on.

Callin. Know any off hand, or must I start digging?

Crane Wing is good, and if you're going the 1-handed fighting route anyway, why not take the best melee/tank bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) and get free Dervish Dance feat right from level 1, along with doubled self-only inspire courage?

I'd suggest never taking Duelist, it's a terrible prestige class and is basically just nerfing yourself. DD Bard 20 (or dipping a level in Unarmed Fighter or Master of Many Styles Monk to help get Crane Wing faster) is quite solid, though.

[JusticeZero]

I don't really see a Bard being a great tank? At what point are you learning about this need to be a tank? is this from level 1? And what on earth is the rest of the party made of if YOU are the best option for a tank? Also, exactly how are you and the party defining "tank"? Does a battlefield controller with Stand Still and a lot of reach count?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Does a battlefield controller with Stand Still and a lot of reach count?

Stand Still doesn't work like that. ("adjacent" not "threatened" squares)

It requires you add Combat Patrol though since that specifies you can move. Not much use for Reach there though.

Combat Patrol is in general an interesting option and is Dodge Mobility.

[BTB]

Crane Wing is good, and if you're going the 1-handed fighting route anyway, why not take the best melee/tank bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) and get free Dervish Dance feat right from level 1, along with doubled self-only inspire courage?

I'd suggest never taking Duelist, it's a terrible prestige class and is basically just nerfing yourself. DD Bard 20 (or dipping a level in Unarmed Fighter or Master of Many Styles Monk to help get Crane Wing faster) is quite solid, though.

I already did, it's the crux of the build. We're level 5, pretty much everyone else is range, so I took Dodge and intend to abuse Battle Dance and Allegro (Self only haste, duration of performance) to kill enemies quickly. I was going to take Piranha Strike, but light weapons only.

First turn, start battle dance, cast Allegro, and use Quick Runner's Shirt (1 extra move action per day, wsh I had two or three) to move in, second turn, full attack for two attacks of around +12 to hit for 1d6+11 each (Haven't done the exact math, give or take one or two on each). 15-20 crit range (Thank you craft magic arms)

50 hp and 21 AC with Dodge. Best I could build for being in melee.

Getting Crane Wing faster is appealing if I go for that, so I might look into unarmed fighter.

[JusticeZero]

You'll likely need some support to pull it off. What's the rest of the party exactly? What resources do you have to call on to make you shine?

[JadePhoenix]

Consider being an aasimar for their bonus to bardic performance

[Kudaku]

Crane Wing is good, and if you're going the 1-handed fighting route anyway, why not take the best melee/tank bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) and get free Dervish Dance feat right from level 1, along with doubled self-only inspire courage?

He's already stated that he is using that very archetype earlier in the thread :smallconfused:

BTB, one option is to turn your lemons into lemonade, ie make the best of the Dodge feat. if you don't mind doing a quick dip then 1 level in master of many styles monk would get you improved unarmed strike, +2 on all saves, and one free style feat. A possible option would be:

5. Bard - Dodge
6. Bard
7. MoMS - IUS, crane style (with your regular feat slot), crane wing (with the MoMS bonus feat)
8+ Bard

Crane Wing is better the earlier you pick it up, so if there's any chance you can retroactively change some of your build then that'd be great, but this is still entirely playable. Since MoMS lets you ignore prereqs for style feats, this seems the minimum investment to pick up the feat chain and it'll greatly improve your defense. With Dervish of Dawn your attack bonus will likely be excellent, so the penalty for fighting defensively is not particularly limiting.

Finally, I agree with Stream in that duelist might not be the best fit for a bard, since you lose out on spellcasting progression (which is big for bards). It'd also force you to take one bad feat (mobility) and one very bad feat (weapon finesse, since you already have DD from your archetype). Finally, duelists benefit from high intelligence, which is normally not high on a dervish bard build. That last bit is guesswork though, since I don't actually know what your stat spread is :smallsmile:

[BTB]

My support is spotty, at best. We have a Zen Archer, who I believe took a level in one spellcasting class or another, but gained no real magical abilitied from it. (I forgot which one exactly, I know it was useful to him for some reason). He's decent at range, pretty good actually, though is rather short on other abilities.

We do have a sorc, who I could beg for some buff spells, though he's chosen to specialize in "Anything and Everything dealing with visual effects". I believe he's an illusionist primarily. He's an RP guy, which I respect, but it'll be hard to convince him to take spells unless they fit thematically. He's said he'll likely be useless in combat.

The last one, I don't even remember his class, but he's basically more ranged DPR. I'm not sure I've ever seen him play anything else. I'm unable to provide more info on him.

EDIT: Yes Kudaku, my attack is excellent. I'm definitely going to be looking into this, especially if I can convince my DM to use fractional BAB.

[Kudaku]

@BTB I edited part of my post earlier, not sure if you caught the revisions.

I updated the suggested build order to level 7 and outlined some drawbacks with the Duelist class :smallsmile:

[JusticeZero]

Hey, don't knock the illusionist. Ask for a Blur or something of that sort. There's some good illusion spells for this.

[BTB]

Oh, sorry, I don't intend to knock him, he's rather useful. Those were based on his own comments about explicitly not building for combat.

[BTB]

@BTB I edited part of my post earlier, not sure if you caught the revisions.

I updated the suggested build order to level 7 and outlined some drawbacks with the Duelist class :smallsmile:

Oh, just noticed that. Yes, there are some interesting things there. I very much like it. I like having that path to take, Bard generally doesn't have much to do with it's feats, it's weird.

[Kudaku]

I'm playing a dervish of dawn bard myself (lvl 4 at the moment) and I ran into the same problem you did with feats - lingering performance etc are out, so there's nothing really exciting to take.

Extended spell, weapon focus: scimitar, arcane strike etc are good options, but nothing really stands out as "crucial" to the character.

Then again, not having your character be limited by his feat selection is pretty awesome :smallsmile:

[BTB]

I see it as like when someone asks you to name 5 well known brands or something. You know thousands, but suddenly none come to mind. I generally love Piranha Strrike for DEX based, but it requires a light weapon, so I'm like "Okay, arcane strike at level 1 and... well. I have no more ideas." This is a nice path to eat some feats rather than just taking the standard "Improved Initiative" and "Combat Casting". It's like, well, I have all these feats, and none are amazing. Just... good.

It's likely because pretty much all the Bard's abilities are class inherent, which is why I love the class. It's self scaling. You really do feel like every level is an improvement in an of itself.

[Korahir]

Not sure if i missed it, but what are your other group members? I'm asking because tanking can mean very different things within groups.

[BTB]

Two ranged builds and a sorceror. The former I don't see helping this issue much.

[Dissonance]

I going to assume that you will be Crane Wing eventually right? Since it has to be activated by fighting defensively you can also take Osyluth Guile. If you are even half a competent bard you should have a decent CHA, Which will turn the Fighting Defensively action into the "Just try to hit me" Action.

It also brings us back on topic, as the only prereqs for the feat is Dodge and 8 ranks in Bluff. Which means you can take it at 9 if you don't multiclass for bonus feats.

[JusticeZero]

Not sure if i missed it, but what are your other group members? I'm asking because tanking can mean very different things within groups.
He mentioned already - an illusion-focused Sorcerer, a Zen Archer, and someone very bland and non-memorable who stands back and goes *roll* *roll* "10 damage to the one over there."

[StreamOfTheSky]

For my DD Bard, I took Enforcer feat along with the Blade of Mercy trait so I could intimidate for free on every attack. (Not feat related, but I also took Blistering Invective to intimidate an area and the fire damage fit w/ worshipping the sun goddess).

Osyluth Guile feat, since you already have Dodge anyway, lets you add Cha bonus to AC against one opponent at a time. EDIT: Mentioned already, oops.

Also, at level 11, Discordant Voice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/discordant-voice) is pretty much a no-brainer pickup. Extra 1d6 sonic damage for yourself and all allies within 30 ft as long as you're using any kind of performance, even one only on yourself.

There is also Eldritch Heritage and its line. Arcane bloodline gets you a familiar w/ all your skill ranks. Marid if you can wait for level 11+ and Improved EH gives an unlimited use 60 ft line of untyped damage and reflex(!) negates blinding. Probably some other good options, too.

Lots of good potential feats for a DD bard to take.

Much later on, if you have a favorite buff spell of 1st or 2nd level, might even want to take Spell Perfection on it and Quicken Spell, though Spell Perfection is definitely more for the 9-level casters.

[Korahir]

Sorry for the repetition on group composure. I like streamoftheskys idead and just wanna add this in general: i'd focus on offensive mechanics. With this composition noone will heal you besides yourself and you won't get to the point where your AC is so high that you can assume your enemies will miss on a regular basis. why not go the opposite way and just go full attack on everyhting? Worked for a group i DMed.

[BTB]

I believe I have all the advice needed to tank effectively, thank you all