Relationship Woes and Advice 24: In which the heroine gets the hero, or vice versa.

[celtois]

Welcome to the Relationship Woes and Advice thread, home of any questions you may have: romantic or familial or friendship, we'll answer (or try to answer) them all. Five years old and growing. This isn't a trade economy- feel free to ask if you have a question, even if you haven't ever given advice and don't intend to start. We won't stone you or ignore you or anything. All we ask is to know how a situation ends up, either in this thread or through a PM.

Here are the basics.

The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.


Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

#5- Don't be desperate. You don't need to be in a relationship and the healthiest mindset is one where you are happy as you are, even if you do not have a significant other. Don't stay in a relationship that isn't good if you aren't happy, just because you want someone. This is detrimental to both parties in the long (and sometimes short) run.

#6- Be a couple. Set aside some time every week to be together. Just an hour, if nothing else, where it's JUST you two. No computer, no others. Just the couple.

#6.5- Maintain the relationship. Ask your partner every now and then how they are feeling, if they feel like the relationship is still going in a good direction, etc. Also, make sure you don't hide it if you have an issue with your partner or a relationship. The only way it can change is if you talk about it.

#7- Let your boundaries be known. This goes for everything from intimacy to what you consider cheating to any other thing you can think of. Pretty much if it's something that would possibly upset you or your partner, let them know BEFORE a problem arises. An example would be letting your partner know you consider kissing cheating. They very well might think only intercourse is cheating. Having that known before anything potentially happens is a good thing.

#8- Know the signs of an abusive relationship. Both men and women can be abusers, and if you recognize the signs early on you are more likely to be able to get out of a bad situation before it gets out of hand. It's never easy, but if you know the general red flags, it can help you to avoid the situation.

A list (http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects .htm)- courtesy of Pheehelm

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

-We are not allowed to dispense advice that should be handled by a professional, including psychological or medical advice.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

So please - play nice, and if you're not comfortable talking about things over the open board, PM one of the regulars (too many to mention), and I'm sure they'll be willing to lend an ear - or if you're not sure who to PM, post asking for someone to PM you, and you'll soon get a response

-Syka

Previous thread: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239955)

We have a sister thread in Personal Woes and Advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239960), which is suited for any woes you may have with things unrelated to relationships.

[The Rose Dragon]

((From last thread, where it got lost in between posts about who would start the next.))

I feel like I could use some advice, even though at this point I know what I should do, and just need to be talked into actually doing it, and maybe some help on how to.

There are two girls. One of them, let's call her Tea, I met last March, and I've had a crush on her since around late April the same year. Unfortunately, by the time I realized this (when I briefly dated this other girl, actually) and decided to do something about it, she started sending some very mixed signals. I am fairly certain she is single, but I don't know how she feels about me, and I'm kind of a coward. While we talk on the phone, I haven't had a chance to meet her privately since December, as we've both been busy with grad school, and I don't want to confess or do anything of the sort without meeting her. We agreed to meet after my finals are over, but I am still afraid I will chicken out once I do meet her because of some mixed signal she will send.

The other girl, let's call her Coffee, I met last Halloween, but we didn't really start interacting before February. She's cute, she's fun, she is interesting, we get along great... and she's taken. In fact, I knew her boyfriend well before I met her (it is possible they started dating after I met him). Unfortunately, my brain does not seem to register this, and I have difficulty moving on, or being comfortable around them (separately or together, doesn't seem to matter). I don't know if they or any common friends we have realized this or not, but I'm sincerely hoping they didn't, because I have no idea how any of them would react to learning this.

So I've got two girls, with no idea what to do next. Any help you can give would be appreciated.

[noparlpf]

How are we doing the handoff these days anyway?

Dunno. I don't like starting new iterations of ongoing threads, and anyway I'm not really a regular here. I just like reading these.

[Rolling Thunder]

I feel like I could use some advice, even though at this point I know what I should do, and just need to be talked into actually doing it, and maybe some help on how to.

There are two girls. One of them, let's call her Tea, I met last March, ...We agreed to meet after my finals are over, but I am still afraid I will chicken out once I do meet her because of some mixed signal she will send.

The other girl, let's call her Coffee, ...

So I've got two girls, with no idea what to do next. Any help you can give would be appreciated.

I am fairly new to this forum, but this kind of sounds like my final school year before university. I got to know a girl one year older I would have described just like you described Coffee (Except the boyfriend situation, but bear with me). We met through mutual friends, got to know each other, had lots of (in no way love related) fun as friends and I developed feelings. Then she talked to me about her new boyfriend (first punch to the groin). And how she will spend the year after school (aka my final year) working at the same gardening show as him (second punch to the heart). I met her several times during this year (without ever meeting her boyfriend) which did not make it easer.

But then I got to know another girl and we chatted some time (Let's call her Tea, shall we?). First nerdy stuff, than crazy stuff, than fairy tales with me becoming a knight in white armour and she the damsell in distress (I'll never understand how that sneaked in) - and than we fell for another. And we became a pair. And this was eight years ago and we are still going strong and will marry some day.

And now comes the twist:
We met Coffee and her boyfriend (which was a nice guy, it seemed). And I still got *** feelings for her (Punch to the head - Stop thinking in there!). And I thought about her on a non-platonic level everytime we met. But it never distracted me from the fun we could have as friends. Years later we met her again and learned that her boyfriend cheated on her and she dumped him (Not so nice after all). And *bing* the feelings were there ("Now's a good time to ask her out, isn't it?" - I look to my girlfriend sitting next to me: "No Brain, now is not a good time").

But I have to say: I am happy in my relationship and I would not risk this for a teenage romance gone by. But that is live: Sometimes it hurts and sometimes you have to tell your brain what it is allowed to think and what it isn't!

Offtopic: I think you can feel the hurt just by looking at the size of this Wall of Texttm

My Advice:
Talk to Tea. Keep the contact and see if the signals she sends become less confused. Do not force a decision now. Maybe try to meet her sooner, maybe to talk about your mutual school stress? This a challenging times (for both of you) so do not make them more stressful or complicated for her. If you then still get confused by mixed signals there is but one thing to do: Ask her (See Rule #1). Talk about your relationship. How she sees it and what she thinks it could become - If she can't handle an honest question, she can't handle a serious love-relationship with you. But: Do not force a definit answer. Maybe she is just as confused as you are (I would bet on this), so a maybe could be a reasonable answer.

As to Coffee: I would never step consciously into a existing partnership. But this is me. This I could not advice you on. But as I told you: Romantic feelings between humans exist, and the are not rational. And even if they never go away, you could still be friends! But it is a challenge ("Make a Will Save, DC25!"). If you have common friends you could talk to in privat (and who can keep a secret for you) ask them for advice.

I hope I could help you and I also hope I did not step on anyones toes here with giving advice and still being fairly new to this forum!

[The Rose Dragon]

It sort of helps, thank you. I still welcome other perspectives, though.

[Lazy Genius]

So I'm in a bit of a stalemate with myself on what to do.

If you haven't been keeping up, I started ranting on page 49 last thread.

So on the return trip I took an exit earlier to catch a meeting of my student society, it was about 10pm by that time. The meeting lasted until around 3am, and I told her of the meeting, so being a cordial friend she asked if I had fun with it until late in the night. The following conversation took place on facebook over the course of last weekend through Monday. I told her I had to explain where I was, because they'd started two hours earlier without me, and I said that I was out to a movie with two beautiful women (the meeting of the student society was of a group that's all men). She said that she found the fact that I went to bible study far more important than the movie, completely disregarding my subtle compliment. I then mentioned that I'd said that, I just thought it more important to mention that I told them she was beautiful. She then said that she found it more important how I think about the bible than how I think about her, and I didn't quite know how to respond to that.

When I did respond (on Tuesday), I mentioned that I could understand that (lie), and that I found it important for her to know how I think about her (truth), and that I'm even contemplating taking a bible with me to a 10-week backpacking/mountainclimbing/-biking camp-type thing for some reading (truth). I had also made a post in the group facebook chat (with the other volunteers), that I would like to organise a new event, I suggested a gamenight at my parents' place, mostly because my parents have a lot of board-/cardgames, and I mentioned in the private message that I'd like for her to respond.

On Thursday, she broke my heart. In the group chat she mentioned that neither her nor Sascha have the need for another event, and that they had fun in the week we were together, and some more stuff in the same league meant as closing/goodbye statements (at least I interpret it that way), she finished with saying that the movie and bibleclass were fun for once, but that once was enough. In a private message, she then said that she thinks it's best that we keep contact minimal between the two of us, and that she doesn't appreciate the way I react to her as a person (???). She then went on to give me advice on how to get to know the bible without involving her, because it would be a waste if I do it the wrong way and end up stranded.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I just want to say something the day before I leave for 10 weeks, with at least the first 5 weeks no internet of any kind (I'm leaving Wednesday). I'm not quite sure on what to say.
Options:
A goodbye-ish message, thanking her for good times and the advice. (Too defeated)
A message saying that it's too bad she feels that way, and that I had hoped I left a better impression. (Too open-ended)
A message that tries to mitigate whatever harm I've done to her, and mention that I will follow her advice. (Too weak)
Ignore the request and say it's too bad we weren't able to plan anything before I leave, and mention that I hope to resume contact after the summer. (Too hostile)
Mention that I'm curious as to why she says that and that I'll be eager to read her explanation when I come back in 10 weeks (Too forward)

The only possible, somewhat positive, option I can think of is a combination of the above, taking the best parts of each (like a compromise would do), but that seems way too difficult, so I'm asking if anyone can think of a Good option... :smallfrown::smalleek::smallredface:

[Lissou]

I'm sure happy news are welcome here.
As you may know, I've been in a long distance relationship (France for me, California for him) for close to 3 years.
I just made it back into the US again and so we're together again right now. It just reinforces how much it's worth it to hang in there when we're apart, because being back together is just right.

Here is to being able to stay together in the same country for longer than a few months at a time :) I'll keep you informed about that.

[Chen]

@The Rose Dragon: I answered in last thread, ask the Tea out on a date. If you're interested in a romantic relationship its the best way to start. As for Coffee, I'd suggest trying to ignore your feelings. Waiting for a relationship to end so you can have a shot is a BAD idea. Sometimes you just need to let things go.

@Lazy Genius: The girl in question has pretty clearly stated she isn't interested. Its ****ty, but there's not much else you can (or should do). In all honesty, if you've already acknowledged that you've seen her message, I don't think saying anything is necessary or worthwhile. You're not going to change her mind and asking for an explanation or whatever is just awkward for both parties. As unfortunate as it may be, I think the best advice here is to just let it go. She asked for minimal future contact (a nice way of saying I don't think we should talk anymore) so frankly just leaving it at that is pretty reasonable.

[Glass Mouse]

@Lazy Genius: The girl in question has pretty clearly stated she isn't interested. Its ****ty, but there's not much else you can (or should do). In all honesty, if you've already acknowledged that you've seen her message, I don't think saying anything is necessary or worthwhile. You're not going to change her mind and asking for an explanation or whatever is just awkward for both parties. As unfortunate as it may be, I think the best advice here is to just let it go. She asked for minimal future contact (a nice way of saying I don't think we should talk anymore) so frankly just leaving it at that is pretty reasonable.

This. If you absolutely must send a message, send no. 1. It's not a defeated message, it's one that shows respect for her (and, more importantly, your) boundaries. You do not want to chase a girl who gives you a no, much less when the no is as clear-cut as here. Trust me. It hurts, but consider yourself lucky you got a clear answer, and dial the Wishful Thinking Translater back a bit, ok? :smallsmile:



In other, unrelated news, I recently had a very useful epiphany regarding my interpersonal relationships, courtesy of my mum who is the people-smartest person I know and who knows me much better than I do. Note to self: I don't need to be needed to be liked. Simple and useful.
My mum is awesome.

[Serpentine]

LazyGenius: You went in too hard, too fast and too strong. We can trace that right back to when you effectively said you fell in love with her at first sight, and became interested in a religion you don't believe in specifically to please her. That set off alarm bells for me, and I'm not even there or getting her side of it.
My advice for next time:
- Dial it back. Personally, I don't believe in love at first sight. I believe in attraction at first sight, lust, sure, but not love. And I certainly don't think it's a good idea to go around acting like it's happened before you've gotten at least extremely strong signs of reciprocation, much less when you' e only spoken 2 or 3 times in a professional context. Finally, I don't think you did, but if you ever actually revealed your belief that you were in love with her at that point that could well have made her incredibly uncomfortable - I know I would be.
- Don't compromise yourself. If you are genuinely interested in something about someone, such as their religion, by all means look into it. But never throw yourself into something specifically because you think it will please the other person. This applies triply to things as important as converting to a religion - frankly, your approach in that regard kinda horrified me. Again, if she detected that you were going to Bible study etc just to impress her, that could well have made her uncomfortable - maybe even actively insulted, since you were effectively using her beliefs to get close to her.

If you must send her a response this time, I recommend that thank you if you want, an apology, and maybe a really, really carefully worded non-accusatory undemanding tentative request for a run-down of what exactly you did wrong so you can avoid doing it again in the future if that's alright with her and she has the time, MAYBE.

[Coidzor]

Note to self: I don't need to be needed to be liked. Simple and useful.

Isn't that usually considered a bad thing anyway, being *needed* by one's lover?

[Glass Mouse]

Isn't that usually considered a bad thing anyway, being *needed* by one's lover?

Ding, ding, collect your prize at the nearest checkout :smallwink:

I've known it intellectually for a long time, and it was one of the main reasons my relationship ended. I just hadn't realized that it was a general pattern for me to try to "fix" people. Sometimes there's frustratingly far from knowledge to wisdom :smalltongue:

[The Succubus]

I don't need to be needed to be liked. Simple and useful.

That...is something I really need to learn. I'm working on it though.

[Arutema]

So a disastrous LDR, followed by several bad dates seems to have left me unable to trust women or emotionally invest in them. Months have gone by, and I'm not healing. How do I fix myself?

[noparlpf]

So a disastrous LDR, followed by several bad dates seems to have left me unable to trust women or emotionally invest in them. Months have gone by, and I'm not healing. How do I fix myself?

Take a break from dating. Be yourself by yourself and for yourself. Get a new hobby. Meet new platonic friends.

[Coidzor]

Ding, ding, collect your prize at the nearest checkout :smallwink:

I've known it intellectually for a long time, and it was one of the main reasons my relationship ended. I just hadn't realized that it was a general pattern for me to try to "fix" people. Sometimes there's frustratingly far from knowledge to wisdom :smalltongue:

Ahh. Yeah, that can be pretty rough. I think one of my friends is in a similar place where he knows it intellectually but doesn't quite realize it applies to himself and that he needs to get rid of that baggage and specter before he can really proceed.

Glad you've made some progress with it. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

Right peoples. I want some advice - and/or to share something kinda amusing with you.

Hokay, so, backgroundwise: I think most of you are aware that I'm on OKCupid. A while ago I got a message from a guy from my city, and we conversed a bit. Was pretty interesting - guy's a puppeteer which I think is pretty cool.
Then he disappeared. Just deleted his account one day. I admit, I was a little bit

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3549347072/h41A5A1DA/

but eh, people come and go from that site all the time, and he was a bit old for me anyway :smalltongue:

So a little while ago I was talking one of my housemates. She mentioned that she's going to be "singing with a puppet" next week. Curious, I asked a bit... and, of course, it's the same guy XD More, he's coming over to my house next week.
So, what should I do? Well, I mean, I guess I know what I should do, the mature route... Introduce myself, tell him I'm that girl from OKCupid, laugh about it or whatever... but that's also boring, dagnabbit :smalltongue: So let me change my question: What could I do? :smallamused:
I'm thinking of not mentioning it, and just dropping the occasional bit of information from our conversation that I probably wouldn't have known otherwise (not, like, really personal stuff or anything - more like his bands or a puppet he was getting made). The trick is in straddling the line between creepy and amusing...
Alternatively (though it'd be on the wrong side of the line), I answer the door with my Yoshi and the pose from my profile picture :smallamused:

To be clear, I'm not angry or anything, I don't want to make him feel bad or actually creeped out (well, maybe a little bit, but only to the point of momentary amusement). I just find it funny, and wouldn't mind milking the humour a bit :smallbiggrin:
edit: Also, actual, like, Relationships have nothing to do with this, btw. I wasn't expecting anything to happen when I was talking to him before, and I certainly don't expect anything to happen now. The most I'm hoping for is to maybe establish a new friendship/friendly acquaintance. The most I'm realistically expecting is to be amused.

[Philemonite]

Right peoples. I want some advice - and/or to share something kinda amusing with you.

Hokay, so, backgroundwise: I think most of you are aware that I'm on OKCupid. A while ago I got a message from a guy from my city, and we conversed a bit. Was pretty interesting - guy's a puppeteer which I think is pretty cool.
Then he disappeared. Just deleted his account one day. I admit, I was a little bit

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3549347072/h41A5A1DA/

but eh, people come and go from that site all the time, and he was a bit old for me anyway :smalltongue:

So a little while ago I was talking one of my housemates. She mentioned that she's going to be "singing with a puppet" next week. Curious, I asked a bit... and, of course, it's the same guy XD More, he's coming over to my house next week.
So, what should I do? Well, I mean, I guess I know what I should do, the mature route... Introduce myself, tell him I'm that girl from OKCupid, laugh about it or whatever... but that's also boring, dagnabbit :smalltongue: So let me change my question: What could I do? :smallamused:
I'm thinking of not mentioning it, and just dropping the occasional bit of information from our conversation that I probably wouldn't have known otherwise (not, like, really personal stuff or anything - more like his bands or a puppet he was getting made). The trick is in straddling the line between creepy and amusing...
Alternatively (though it'd be on the wrong side of the line), I answer the door with my Yoshi and the pose from my profile picture :smallamused:

To be clear, I'm not angry or anything, I don't want to make him feel bad or actually creeped out (well, maybe a little bit, but only to the point of momentary amusement). I just find it funny, and wouldn't mind milking the humour a bit :smallbiggrin:

You could just say something like "You look kinda familiar", or something like that and see how he reacts.
Just pretend you don't remember him.
That should be fun.:smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

You could just say something like "You look kinda familiar", or something like that and see how he reacts.
Just pretend you don't remember him.
That should be fun.:smalltongue:Ooo, the aloof method, ignore him and make him remember me, nice.
Bit vulnerable to backfiring, though... What if he doesn't remember me at all? :smalleek:

[Philemonite]

Ooo, the aloof method, ignore him and make him remember me, nice.
Bit vulnerable to backfiring, though... What if he doesn't remember me at all? :smalleek:

You don't lose anything if he doesn't remember you.
And you can try to subtly slip some details into the conversation that might make him remember.

[prufock]

There are two girls. One of them, let's call her Tea, I met last March, and I've had a crush on her since around late April the same year. Unfortunately, by the time I realized this (when I briefly dated this other girl, actually) and decided to do something about it, she started sending some very mixed signals. I am fairly certain she is single, but I don't know how she feels about me, and I'm kind of a coward. While we talk on the phone, I haven't had a chance to meet her privately since December, as we've both been busy with grad school, and I don't want to confess or do anything of the sort without meeting her. We agreed to meet after my finals are over, but I am still afraid I will chicken out once I do meet her because of some mixed signal she will send.
No guts, no glory, pal. If you're into her, let her know you're into her. Face to face is best. Mixed signals be damned, don't try to be coy or overly clever.

You want to NOT chicken out? Do 2 things.
1. Listen to some "get pumped" music before you head out. High energy Def Leppard, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, AC/DC, etc work for me. Nothing sappy, think more "Pour Some Sugar on Me" than "Two Steps Behind."
2. Get a little post-it note and write "NO GUTS NO GLORY" on it and carry it in your pocket. When you start to chicken out just put your hand in your pocket and touch it.
IT WORKS.


The other girl, let's call her Coffee, I met last Halloween, but we didn't really start interacting before February. She's cute, she's fun, she is interesting, we get along great... and she's taken. In fact, I knew her boyfriend well before I met her (it is possible they started dating after I met him). Unfortunately, my brain does not seem to register this, and I have difficulty moving on, or being comfortable around them (separately or together, doesn't seem to matter). I don't know if they or any common friends we have realized this or not, but I'm sincerely hoping they didn't, because I have no idea how any of them would react to learning this.
Normally I would say being "taken" is not in itself a deal-breaker. An obstacle, yes, but not insurmountable. However, it sounds like this guy is a friend of sorts. It isn't clear how close you are with him, but decide: are you willing to shuffle up your social circle for this lady? If yes, again I say "no guts, no glory." If no, back off.

[Chen]

Ooo, the aloof method, ignore him and make him remember me, nice.
Bit vulnerable to backfiring, though... What if he doesn't remember me at all? :smalleek:

Isn't one of the biggest reasons for removing your dating site profile the fact that you found someone to be in a relationship with and you're not looking to date anymore? It's not unreasonable for someone not to remember every single person they spoke with while online dating. Of course this assumes only a couple of conversations. I mean if you were conversing for a significant amount of time and the like it'd be different of course.

[Serpentine]

...yes, that is entirely possible, and no, I never said it was unreasonable. What's your point?

edit: Putting another qualifier in my original post on the subject, to make it clear.

[Chen]

...yes, that is entirely possible, and no, I never said it was unreasonable. What's your point?

edit: Putting another qualifier in my original post on the subject, to make it clear.

The only point was I took the emoticon after the "what if he doesn't remember me at all" to imply this was more concerning than apparently it is. I'd think him not remembering at all is a more likely scenario (again though depending on the length and amount of conversation).

[Serpentine]

Eh, more that that'd be potentially kinda embarrassing, and not much fun.

[Chen]

Eh, more that that'd be potentially kinda embarrassing, and not much fun.

Gotcha. Though, personally, if I were in either side's situation I would find bringing it up somewhat awkward and possibly embarrassing. That might just be me though.

[Serpentine]

Honestly, I'm a bit of a coward, so I'll most likely be saying something like "So did you ever get that puppet you ordered?" in the first few minutes.
I like to dream, though, so people should still give me ideas :smalltongue:

[Lilac_Shade]

Hey, folks. I have a relationship problem that I'm not sure is entirely board appropriate. Could someone PM me?

[Coidzor]

Now to figure out how to read being asked by my neighbour if I'd like to walk her dog with her. :smallconfused:

[Ursus the Grim]

Now to figure out how to read being asked by my neighbour if I'd like to walk her dog with her. :smallconfused:

Well, do you have a dog?

[Coidzor]

Well, do you have a dog?

No, no I do not. I miss my dog, but sadly he went with my roomie when we parted ways.

[Ursus the Grim]

No, no I do not. I miss my dog, but sadly he went with my roomie when we parted ways.

Sorry to hear that.

On the plus side, this definitely suggests she enjoys your company, rather than just looking for a contact with a fellow dog trainer.

[Coidzor]

Sorry to hear that.

On the plus side, this definitely suggests she enjoys your company, rather than just looking for a contact with a fellow dog trainer.

Well, he did pay the lion's share of the adoption fee, and we did agree to it beforehand so there's no bad-blood or anything. Mostly just want to get to the point where I can really take care of a dog and train it on my own.

I suppose it helps put to rest the fear that I was just annoying her when I was helping her out when she was pregnant when she moved in and this past winter.

[The Rose Dragon]

So I'm meeting Tea on Friday (probably, at least), and I'm thinking of doing my best to tell her what I feel, especially since our last two conversations gave me hope that she also likes me. I'll just have to read her body language carefully when I meet her, and have twenty seconds of insane courage to go through with it.

[Coidzor]

So I'm meeting Tea on Friday (probably, at least), and I'm thinking of doing my best to tell her what I feel, especially since our last two conversations gave me hope that she also likes me. I'll just have to read her body language carefully when I meet her, and have twenty seconds of insane courage to go through with it.

You can do it. :smallsmile:

[Jon_Dahl]

A long post, over 1,000 words. You've been warned.

I'm a European man who has a long-distance relationship with a Brazilian woman. We started dating 5½ years though the Internet. It has been a bumpy ride, ever since the beginning.

It didn't take long before I noticed that she has mood swings. Sometimes she was like a loaded gun, and sometimes like a reasonable and sweet person. She always told me that she's just like this because she didn't have me close to her.

Then I went to visit her in Brazil. It was an awful experience. Her mother was guarding us all the time, even though we were 27 and 29 years old. My girlfriend proved to be even moodier than I had imagined. She hit me twice and complained about everything. I complained back, but didn't hit her. She did all kinds of crazy stuff. For instance, I told her that I didn't want to go to those pay-per-weight restaurants anymore - I wanted a real restaurant with fixed meals. So she walked around the city with me for two hours and then she just started to cry. My expectation was that she would have been nice to me and treated me well, and we would have had harmony. Instead, I got a very stressed-out girl, who was under a constant supervision like a 10-year-old child. I felt that no matter what I said or tried, things went wrong.

Nearing the end of my visit, she said that it would be wrong to break up with her after I've returned back to Europe. On the second last day of my stay, I broke up with her after a long fight. IIRC, the pretended to faint because I was being so hard to her. She begged me to take her back, and I did.

After my return, things have been difficult. She wants my attention all the time and every evening. She spends most of the time talking about past events, mainly about the summer that I spent there. Her most frequent topics are the things I have said or done to hurt her and we talk about them every week, several times. It's impossible to talk normally, as myself, because she starts loads of drama if I say things that don't please her. I have told her that we need to talk things straight and then leave them be, but it never happens. Sometimes we talk about some three-year-old conversation that she didn't like, and we repeat that conversation dozens of times. I have said that I'm sorry, but she doesn't accept that. She has told me that she will never forgive me. I have asked her what can we do together to make things better, but she just cries. I have told her that I'm willing to do anything to have a happy relationship with her, but she gives me vague terms like "be a better man", and no matter what I do or say, she will not accept anything.

I'm extremely tired because I have spent the past 2½ years working during the weekdays and listening to her whining and complaining in Skype most of the evenings. She says that I have treated her so badly that I deserve everything and I have no right to complain. The amount of love and caring between us has been minuscule during this time, and the focus has been on her hurt feelings and how bad I've been to her. I spend the evenings just trying to manage with her in any which way I can. Sometimes I get upset and tell her to go to hell, but then she will just talk about my harshness and impoliteness for weeks. If I tell her to talk about something else, or if I try to change the subject and talk about casual everyday things - like how was my day - she gets unresponsive or angry.

Managing my hobbies is a real struggle. She doesn't prevent me from doing things (that much, at least), but she complains all the time that I don't tell her things. The thing is that I do tell her about my plans, but she says that her health is so fragile that she's unable to remember more than 5% of them. I tried to set up a Google Document where I record my schedules, but she said that she won't read it because it doesn't please her.

Our conversations have nothing to do with real life or real issues. I feel that I'm living in a normal life, I earn my own money and I have responsibilities. She's 30, and has never worked in her whole life. She's an academic woman from a wealthy family, and her parents have always provided everything for her. She talks about having a family and how she would like to spend evenings with me, but she has no idea and no clear plan how could we be together. She doesn't apply for jobs or anything. She has been sitting at home for the past 5½ years and done nothing. She hasn't earned a single dime.

She always talks about how I have promised her things and she is absolutely determined to see that I fulfil all my promises, such as having a family with her. I made these promises before I visited Brazil, and the idea was that we work together to have a family etc. Now she just sits and says "You promised me these things and now you must keep your word".

What to do?
In her opinion, we cannot break up until we have lived together. She says that she is too weak to travel to Europe, because her health is so fragile. It will take me years before I can move to Brazil, and fighting with her is very tiring. Also, the thing is that living in Brazil is my dream. I would love it and just thinking about it makes me smile. I think I could go there, listen her constant whining, enjoy my favorite country in the world, then divorce her and return back to Europe. I guess this is the only option, because she refuses to leave me alone.

And I have already tried to get rid of her.

About two months ago, I broke up with her because she wished my cat to die. Then everyone contacted me: Her mom, her uncles, her friends, and they all demanded that I get back with her at once. They told me that she had stopped eating and lost 5 kg in just one week. I told her that I'm willing to return if things get better, but they haven't. It's the same constant bickering as before. But the thing here is that if I break up with her, she will become self-destructive (by not eating and maybe worse), and her family (which I adore) get worried about her and just bombard me with messages.

She has told me that she's old-fashioned woman, a lady of old times. I have to be a real gentleman to her all the time, and that's fine, but the problem is that I must constantly please her and I'm unable to be myself with my own opinions. Anything that doesn't please her easily gets her irritated and then it's my fault if she gets upset. For instance, I love telling jokes and posting funny animated gifs, but she hates them and gets aggressive if I tell a joke that she doesn't like (99% of them).

Mindreading is also a problem. This is best shown with an example:
She had fever (she's constantly sick). I asked her about her fever and all, but I didn't get that much out of her. Then I started to sit quietly. She got upset and said "Why haven't you asked what I have done today?!" I told her that it would have been ignorant, because people who have fever can't do much. They should rest. She just got upset and cried the whole evening, and the next day we just fought.

Well, just writing about all this made me feel much better...

[Serpentine]

You, sir, are in a loveless, abusive relationship - and apparently her whole family is in on it for some reason. You have absolutely no reason to be still with her as far as I can see - it sounds like you don't even like her.
Her health and mental well-being is not your responsibility. It is... just plain wrong for her family to put all the onus on you to make her happy and all of that. And it's not healthy for her to be in a sick relationship.
Break up with her. Cut yourself off from her. If her family harasses you about it, find contact information on mental health services in Brazil (SMEE might be able to help you with that), send that to them, and then cut them off as well.
It's pretty straightforward: you're no good for her, and she's DEFINITELY no good for you. End it. Properly. And don't let her or her family guilt, blackmail, manipulate or otherwise try to force you into perpetuating a bad thing.

[Rolling Thunder]

You, sir, are in a loveless, abusive relationship - and apparently her whole family is in on it for some reason. You have absolutely no reason to be still with her as far as I can see - it sounds like you don't even like her.
Her health and mental well-being is not your responsibility. It is... just plain wrong for her family to put all the onus on you to make her happy and all of that. And it's not healthy for her to be in a sick relationship.
Break up with her. Cut yourself off from her. If her family harasses you about it, find contact information on mental health services in Brazil (SMEE might be able to help you with that), send that to them, and then cut them off as well.
It's pretty straightforward: you're no good for her, and she's DEFINITELY no good for you. End it. Properly. And don't let her or her family guilt, blackmail, manipulate or otherwise try to force you into perpetuating a bad thing.

This is so well said Serpentine! I also read from the post, that this is one sick, abusive realtionship you are having. It is far easier said than done but: This braziliean women and her family have absolutly no right to treat you this way. You tried dating her in Brazil and it did not work out. Let's face it: She does not make you happy and I doubt she ever will. The dreams you shared before your meeting* should now be a thing of the past. The whole relationship should be a thing of the past for you!
I understand that you invested much time and emotions into this dream but now is the time to cut your loses before you get hurt a lot more.
Neither her nor her relatives have any right to pressure you into maintaining a relationship you do not want. A realtionship should be uplifting and not demanding without a reward.

I hope I did not formulate this too harsh, but your whole story made me quite angry towards these people, trying to pin the blame for their problems on you.

One Annotation:
* You might have made "promises" to her, but all those were under the condition that live with her would work out in Brazil. Well, it did not! Do not feel any obligation towards her! She does not respect you and keeping the contact for more than 5 years gave her enough time to change if she truly wanted. And it proves your worth and kindness above all I would be able to endure!

[The Succubus]

You, sir, are in a loveless, abusive relationship - and apparently her whole family is in on it for some reason. You have absolutely no reason to be still with her as far as I can see - it sounds like you don't even like her.
Her health and mental well-being is not your responsibility. It is... just plain wrong for her family to put all the onus on you to make her happy and all of that. And it's not healthy for her to be in a sick relationship.
Break up with her. Cut yourself off from her. If her family harasses you about it, find contact information on mental health services in Brazil (SMEE might be able to help you with that), send that to them, and then cut them off as well.
It's pretty straightforward: you're no good for her, and she's DEFINITELY no good for you. End it. Properly. And don't let her or her family guilt, blackmail, manipulate or otherwise try to force you into perpetuating a bad thing.

This. A thousand, thousand times this. As I was reading through it, I could practically see the red flashing lights and alert sirens.

Wanting to help someone you care for is one thing, being emotionally blackmailed into being someone's mental health worker is another. You most definitely fall in the latter category.

As Serpentine said, if they will not agree to leave you alone, cut them off. Block her and her family on Skype, change your email and phone number if you have to. Above all, do not let them coerce you into spending the rest of your life with someone you do not love because if you do not leave her, this is exactly what will happen.


#8- Know the signs of an abusive relationship. Both men and women can be abusers, and if you recognize the signs early on you are more likely to be able to get out of a bad situation before it gets out of hand. It's never easy, but if you know the general red flags, it can help you to avoid the situation.

A list (http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects .htm)- courtesy of Pheehelm

Taken from the OP.

[Philemonite]

A long post, over 1,000 words. You've been warned.

I'm a European man who has a long-distance relationship with a Brazilian woman. We started dating 5½ years though the Internet. It has been a bumpy ride, ever since the beginning.

It didn't take long before I noticed that she has mood swings. Sometimes she was like a loaded gun, and sometimes like a reasonable and sweet person. She always told me that she's just like this because she didn't have me close to her.

Then I went to visit her in Brazil. It was an awful experience. Her mother was guarding us all the time, even though we were 27 and 29 years old. My girlfriend proved to be even moodier than I had imagined. She hit me twice and complained about everything. I complained back, but didn't hit her. She did all kinds of crazy stuff. For instance, I told her that I didn't want to go to those pay-per-weight restaurants anymore - I wanted a real restaurant with fixed meals. So she walked around the city with me for two hours and then she just started to cry. My expectation was that she would have been nice to me and treated me well, and we would have had harmony. Instead, I got a very stressed-out girl, who was under a constant supervision like a 10-year-old child. I felt that no matter what I said or tried, things went wrong.

Nearing the end of my visit, she said that it would be wrong to break up with her after I've returned back to Europe. On the second last day of my stay, I broke up with her after a long fight. IIRC, the pretended to faint because I was being so hard to her. She begged me to take her back, and I did.

After my return, things have been difficult. She wants my attention all the time and every evening. She spends most of the time talking about past events, mainly about the summer that I spent there. Her most frequent topics are the things I have said or done to hurt her and we talk about them every week, several times. It's impossible to talk normally, as myself, because she starts loads of drama if I say things that don't please her. I have told her that we need to talk things straight and then leave them be, but it never happens. Sometimes we talk about some three-year-old conversation that she didn't like, and we repeat that conversation dozens of times. I have said that I'm sorry, but she doesn't accept that. She has told me that she will never forgive me. I have asked her what can we do together to make things better, but she just cries. I have told her that I'm willing to do anything to have a happy relationship with her, but she gives me vague terms like "be a better man", and no matter what I do or say, she will not accept anything.

I'm extremely tired because I have spent the past 2½ years working during the weekdays and listening to her whining and complaining in Skype most of the evenings. She says that I have treated her so badly that I deserve everything and I have no right to complain. The amount of love and caring between us has been minuscule during this time, and the focus has been on her hurt feelings and how bad I've been to her. I spend the evenings just trying to manage with her in any which way I can. Sometimes I get upset and tell her to go to hell, but then she will just talk about my harshness and impoliteness for weeks. If I tell her to talk about something else, or if I try to change the subject and talk about casual everyday things - like how was my day - she gets unresponsive or angry.

Managing my hobbies is a real struggle. She doesn't prevent me from doing things (that much, at least), but she complains all the time that I don't tell her things. The thing is that I do tell her about my plans, but she says that her health is so fragile that she's unable to remember more than 5% of them. I tried to set up a Google Document where I record my schedules, but she said that she won't read it because it doesn't please her.

Our conversations have nothing to do with real life or real issues. I feel that I'm living in a normal life, I earn my own money and I have responsibilities. She's 30, and has never worked in her whole life. She's an academic woman from a wealthy family, and her parents have always provided everything for her. She talks about having a family and how she would like to spend evenings with me, but she has no idea and no clear plan how could we be together. She doesn't apply for jobs or anything. She has been sitting at home for the past 5½ years and done nothing. She hasn't earned a single dime.

She always talks about how I have promised her things and she is absolutely determined to see that I fulfil all my promises, such as having a family with her. I made these promises before I visited Brazil, and the idea was that we work together to have a family etc. Now she just sits and says "You promised me these things and now you must keep your word".

What to do?
In her opinion, we cannot break up until we have lived together. She says that she is too weak to travel to Europe, because her health is so fragile. It will take me years before I can move to Brazil, and fighting with her is very tiring. Also, the thing is that living in Brazil is my dream. I would love it and just thinking about it makes me smile. I think I could go there, listen her constant whining, enjoy my favorite country in the world, then divorce her and return back to Europe. I guess this is the only option, because she refuses to leave me alone.

And I have already tried to get rid of her.

About two months ago, I broke up with her because she wished my cat to die. Then everyone contacted me: Her mom, her uncles, her friends, and they all demanded that I get back with her at once. They told me that she had stopped eating and lost 5 kg in just one week. I told her that I'm willing to return if things get better, but they haven't. It's the same constant bickering as before. But the thing here is that if I break up with her, she will become self-destructive (by not eating and maybe worse), and her family (which I adore) get worried about her and just bombard me with messages.

She has told me that she's old-fashioned woman, a lady of old times. I have to be a real gentleman to her all the time, and that's fine, but the problem is that I must constantly please her and I'm unable to be myself with my own opinions. Anything that doesn't please her easily gets her irritated and then it's my fault if she gets upset. For instance, I love telling jokes and posting funny animated gifs, but she hates them and gets aggressive if I tell a joke that she doesn't like (99% of them).

Mindreading is also a problem. This is best shown with an example:
She had fever (she's constantly sick). I asked her about her fever and all, but I didn't get that much out of her. Then I started to sit quietly. She got upset and said "Why haven't you asked what I have done today?!" I told her that it would have been ignorant, because people who have fever can't do much. They should rest. She just got upset and cried the whole evening, and the next day we just fought.

Well, just writing about all this made me feel much better...

Reading this made me feel so sad.
You are such a good person, but she does NOT have the right to control your life.
Others are right, you need to end this RIGHT NOW.
The worse thing is that you do not even mention that you like her(not love, just like).

[Coidzor]

Jon Dahl I don't need to read anything other than this paragraph to know that this needs to end.


I'm extremely tired because I have spent the past 2½ years working during the weekdays and listening to her whining and complaining in Skype most of the evenings. She says that I have treated her so badly that I deserve everything and I have no right to complain. The amount of love and caring between us has been minuscule during this time, and the focus has been on her hurt feelings and how bad I've been to her. I spend the evenings just trying to manage with her in any which way I can. Sometimes I get upset and tell her to go to hell, but then she will just talk about my harshness and impoliteness for weeks. If I tell her to talk about something else, or if I try to change the subject and talk about casual everyday things - like how was my day - she gets unresponsive or angry.

Hell, just the bolded lines shout "Dump that Lilim!"

[noparlpf]

Jon Dahl I don't need to read anything other than this paragraph to know that this needs to end.

Hell, just the bolded lines shout "Dump that Lilim!"

I agree. What about this "relationship" is keeping you there? If your answer is "yelly people halfway across the world harass me if I try to break up" then just get a new phone number and email address and ignore them. This is seriously unhealthy.

[rogueboy]

Well, I just finished an 8-day drive across the country (which would have been more fun if I didn't have an apartment stuffed into the back of my Accord), since I decided to leave my graduate program in PA and move back to the Seattle area. In the process, I've redone my OKC profile (http://www.okcupid.com/profile/soccer_dan) a few times, and could use some critiques. Currently I don't know what I'm going to be doing for a job, so I've tried to subtly avoid talking about work in anything but the vaguest ways. I also just finished the drive yesterday, so the whole "normal routine" thing doesn't exist yet. I've got a few possible pictures from the trip, and I'll decide if any are worthwhile once I get a chance to thin the pictures that were taken.

As to Jon's post, add one more voice to the long list that's already saying "END IT!". Also:


I agree. What about this "relationship" is keeping you there? If your answer is "yelly people halfway across the world harass me if I try to break up" then just get a new phone number and email address and ignore them. This is seriously unhealthy.

Or just block their numbers. Pretty easy to do on most phones. And you can set up email filters to just delete their messages automatically. No need to inconvenience yourself so much as changing your phone number and email.

[AtlanteanTroll]

My friend, and I do mean my friend, is in serious romantic turmoil. I know some people here help people with their OKC accounts, so I thought I would post his (http://www.okcupid.com/profile/silverrida)here.

As for me, it's been like four months or so into my first relationship. While I initially felt we were too touchy and weren't making enough of an emotional connection, that's fear has gone away. I am kind of worried about me going on vacation though. I'm going to be gone for a little over two weeks in a little over two weeks. My girlfriend has some serious fears when it comes to distance, and she's worried what's going to happen. I keep telling her that it's just vacation and I'll be back before she knows it, but she still seems kind of upset. IDK. I think everything's fine. The two of us are going down to Florida (with her parents and her best friend and her best friend's BF) for a week at the end of July, so hopefully that'll makes things up to her.

[Coidzor]

Does she think you'll cheat? That she'll cheat? That you'll find someone else and leave her while you're away? That she's projecting her fears about college distance onto the shorter term vacation distance?

[AtlanteanTroll]

Does she think you'll cheat? That she'll cheat? That you'll find someone else and leave her while you're away? That she's projecting her fears about college distance onto the shorter term vacation distance?

Story time!

We're pretty sure about college. She's going to Wooster and I'm going to Oberlin (just over an hours drive from one another) and we will both have car access. While we wont be seeing each other just about every day as we do now and we understand we need to make friends at our respective schools, we plan on seeing each other as frequently as is reasonable.

I think she's worried she's going to do something stupid when I go away. Her previous boyfriend, who she dated two years, was going to move to Illinois for a semester this year. She ended the relationship because she didn't think she could handle the distance. So yeah. I won't be gone nearly as long, but I'll be farther away. She and I are closer than she and her ex ever were anyway.

[Jon_Dahl]

Thank you all for support. At the moment things are subzero between us. I will to see what I can do without hurting too many people (in the short term and long run).

[The Succubus]

Please keep in touch with us and let us know how things work out. We might be able to offer more advice, or at the very least a little moral support. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

I was going to say "bandaid it" - rip it off in one quick move, get the pain over and done with. But this is beyond bandaids. This has gone gangrenous. It's poisonous, and you'll be lucky if it doesn't go all sorts of bad. Forget bandaids. Pull out the axe, lop it off, and do it hard and fast before it poisons the both of you. No buggering about.
Remember: the sooner you get this over and done with, the sooner both of you can start to heal.

[Reverent-One]

So quick question. What are peoples' feelings about being asked out through Facebook or similar impersonal means (especially for posters of the female variety)? There's this girl I'm friendly with that I know mostly from a group context that I would like to ask out, hang out with on a 1 to 1 basis and get to know better, but I am lacking in opportunities to privately ask her in person.

[Castaras]

I've been asked out on facebook quite a few times because it was easier to arrange meeting up through bookface. I'm personally fine with such things, assuming quite a few other girls are similar.

[Chen]

So quick question. What are peoples' feelings about being asked out through Facebook or similar impersonal means (especially for posters of the female variety)? There's this girl I'm friendly with that I know mostly from a group context that I would like to ask out, hang out with on a 1 to 1 basis and get to know better, but I am lacking in opportunities to privately ask her in person.

Asynchronous communication for something like that can be an issue. If you're IMing with someone back and forth and ask, that's one thing. But sending an email and then just waiting for the response is difference. I think that is what tends to make these things far more impersonal. Now that said, this type of communication is becoming more commonplace. Depending on the age and personality of the person, they may find it perfectly acceptable. It does tend to put people less on the spot than if you do it in a real time conversation. On the other hand some people may feel its a cowardly way of doing it which may be a negative mark towards you.

If the person is someone who is constantly using facebook, texting, IMing etc you're probably safe to do it that way. If they are less prone to those things I'd suggest a phone call or doing it in person.

[Arcanist]

TL;DR:My best friend of 2 years just asked me out this Sunday and I'm nervous as hell as to actually approach this because I actually really like her. What should I do?

Background
I first met this girl in High School when we were both new kids in the middle of the semester. She was really, really quiet and I wanted to get her out of her shell and the such so I did what any reasonable person would do; Talked to her about My Little Pony. Her initial reaction was laughter and thinking that this was my "one strike, your out" type thing I turned away and talked to a guy I recently made friends with about MtG. She kept looking at me expecting me to do something stupid for the rest of the class period and after class she told me her name (thinking back, I probably should have asked for her name first...), told me her backstory and the such. Told me about her abusive boyfriend and junk. She gave me her phone number and we texted each other in class all day.

For a while we steadily proceeded to just be friends and perfectly okay with that, until I got the brilliant idea that I liked her a little more than just as a friend. I'm a coward when it comes to relationships and talking about my feelings and feel way more comfortable typing my feelings out so I wrote her an anonymous love letter and slipped it into her locker. It took her until the end of the school year to actually notice it was there mind you, but lets ignore that for a minute. Through out the year we steadily flirted with each other as friends and one time I even pushed her up against the wall and threatened to kiss her before wussing out and leaving (It wouldn't be until a few weeks later that I realized she would have kissed me back...).

When she found the letter she told me about it, but didn't know I actually wrote it and I wasn't about to just tell her that it was me who wrote it. I painted myself with the image of a nerdy little guy who would never be with a girl like this. She is a really brash girl (in a cute way) that always speaks her mind, we talk philosophy, politics, religion, whatever is on our mind and I'm just an e-jerk with an intellectual superiority complex so I just never felt confident enough to tell her that I wrote it. Even though her initial reaction to it was positive, I felt like I could never be good enough for her.

I was afraid that if I tried to be something more than just her friend, it wouldn't work out so I've just been so scared to actually even make a move. Eventually she moved out to Nevada and we continued being friends, but at a distance. Since then she dated some guys and I dated a girl, we talked about our feelings for each other, and she found out about the letter. Fast-forward to about an hour ago where she tells me that she is coming back to live out here again and wants to hang out with me using the specific words "Do you want to go out on a date?"

I've never actually been so emotionally conflicted. I'm happy and excited to see her, scared of how it will go, and feel like crying at the thought of it turning into a failure. I don't like talking about my feelings to people over the internet, but if I discuss this with my friends they'll most likely give me biased commentary.

[Grinner]

*snip*

So in short, you feel reasonably and justifiably nervous because a girl you've liked since high school is moving back to town and has asked you out, just like any other person in your shoes would?

Since you've already agreed to the date, you've got little to do but show up and talk about My Little Pony. Since you two seem to like each other well enough as is, all you need to do is be yourself, minus the anxiety.

[Serpentine]

So a girl you really like has asked you out on a date, and...

What exactly is the advice you need, here? :smallconfused: C'mon, you're a clever boy, you know the answer to this one.

[noparlpf]

I have another question about your species' confusing mating rituals. Supposedly it's possible to fall for somebody whom one does not want to fall for? Is that a thing real humans do and not just imaginary humans?

[Serpentine]

Well... It's at least possible to have strong feelings for someone whom, for whatever reason, you're not likely to ever get into a relationship with - you're taken, they're taken, you know your feelings won't develop beyond infatuation so getting into a relationship won't go anywhere, you're about to be separated by a large distance and are not willing or able to enter into a long-distance relationship, the feelings are unrequited, etc etc so on and so forth.

[Coidzor]

I have another question about your species' confusing mating rituals. Supposedly it's possible to fall for somebody whom one does not want to fall for? Is that a thing real humans do and not just imaginary humans?

My understanding is that this covers somewhere between a significant minority and a plurality of times people fall for someone they only know online.

I more often run into the phenomenon where I've still fallen for someone I don't want to pursue anymore. Generally because one or more of us has become part of an item since the attraction started.

[theangelJean]

Feeling scared that things might not work out is perfectly reasonable. It's a realistic assessment of how things might go - it might end up being the best thing that ever happened to the both of you, or it might not. And now, you have a chance to find out which way it will go. If you're not sure if you want to give it a chance, well then you'd never know. I felt the same type of fear and nervousness when a person I'd been friends with for two years asked me out, but none of my fears actually came true. We're married now.

As for feeling like you could never be good enough for her, I wonder if that's a personality thing. I definitely went through that - still do sometimes - but I have a generalised anxiety disorder and have been through depression, and my husband has been able to see past that and still love who I am. I think the most important thing is not to let feelings like that get in your way. If things don't work out then they don't, it may not even be your fault if that happens, because relationships depend on the approach of both people. But she's obviously seen something in you if she's asked you out, and this is your chance to show her the whole depth of your personality and inner being (and find out hers) and see if you two can make something good of it. And if it doesn't work out, you might still have learned something about yourself. Anyway, being open to good things happening is much more useful than borrowing worry about bad things that might never happen.

[Coidzor]

theangelJean: Being paralyzed by fear when she's all but naked and beckoning him to bed with her, on the other hand, is far from perfectly reasonable. It's practically the definition of an irrational fear, and something that I'd take as a good sign that someone was not ready for a mature relationship.

So it depends on where you are, Arcanist. The obvious answer as what to do is right in front of you. Hell, as long as you don't welch on the date you've already started down that path. Be yourself. The man she apparently fell in love with. Go on that date. Etc. Etc.

That said, it does sound like you should consider some measure of professional help going by your reported self-perception and self-worth.

[Ytaker]

I have another question about your species' confusing mating rituals. Supposedly it's possible to fall for somebody whom one does not want to fall for? Is that a thing real humans do and not just imaginary humans?

This happens a lot to people in monogamous relationships. Someone outside appears sexy and you know you shouldn't cheat.

It's common in friendships too. You can fall in love with your best friend even though you know that they aren't attracted to you. Or even if they are attracted to you but you don't want to ruin your relationship.

Alcohol and drugs can bias your reasoning and make you fall for people you wouldn't fall for in an altered state of mind.

A lot of people fall for someone who they know is off limits due to their sexuality. There's a collegehumor video you can see called "Gay Men Will Marry Your Girlfriends" about how hypothetically gay people are super attractive and can seduce their opposites which represents truth among some. The same thing happens for gay people with straight friends.

There're similar "shouldn't fall for x but I did cause they're hot" things for most other attributes.

[Arcanist]

So it depends on where you are, Arcanist. The obvious answer as what to do is right in front of you. Hell, as long as you don't welch on the date you've already started down that path. Be yourself. The man she apparently fell in love with. Go on that date. Etc. Etc.

We're just going to hang out at my place, watch some movies and catch up. Does that constitute a date actually? I'm starting to think she just used that word to screw with me. I'm mostly worried because this is the first time I get to talk to her in person when she actually knows how I feel about her.


That said, it does sound like you should consider some measure of professional help going by your reported self-perception and self-worth.

I sincerely do not know how to respond to this. Am I supposed to agree with you and seek a psychiatric professional? Or disagree and actually argue all of the self-worth I have? I honestly don't know how to describe myself in a fair light because in all my 19 years of life, I'm no closer to knowing who I am than I was when I started this journey.

[Worira]

> Arcanist: Kiss the girl. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Met7ge5p-jM)

[Castaras]

I have another question about your species' confusing mating rituals. Supposedly it's possible to fall for somebody whom one does not want to fall for? Is that a thing real humans do and not just imaginary humans?

Been there, done that.


I had strong feelings towards a guy in my school who was a complete and utter douchebag. It was irritating and annoying, and I just had to do my damndest to ignore it before they vanished. Especially irritating considering when I fall for someone I normally have feelings for them for ages.

Had lesser irritating crushes and falling heads over heels. Those were with friends that I didn't want to see that way and knew they didn't want to see that way, either because they were in a relationship or chasing someone else.

[Ytaker]

We're just going to hang out at my place, watch some movies and catch up. Does that constitute a date actually? I'm starting to think she just used that word to screw with me. I'm mostly worried because this is the first time I get to talk to her in person when she actually knows how I feel about her.

A movie can be something a friend does, or something someone more interested does. But she called it a date so it probably is a date.

She may like you a lot or like you a little. Depending on your performance on the date and how sexy she feels you are she may go further or just watch the movie with you.

I asked a girl. She said she would never use the word date if she didn't mean it. Not all are the same, but it is my experience most are careful of using this word.

[Glass Mouse]

I asked a girl. She said she would never use the word date if she didn't mean it. Not all are the same, but it is my experience most are careful of using this word.

I think you're right, if only because most girls have experienced a misunderstanding of sorts, and it's really awkward and worth avoiding. That said, I have heard people use it in a teasing/ironic way, but mostly between people who have a clear "no attraction" relation.

[Jon_Dahl]

Let me ask you a very silly question... It's an old thing that I never forgot.

I was waiting outside a bus station. Suddenly a nice-looking girl came to me, pointed at a bus in front of us, and with a smile on her face asked me where the bus was going. I looked at the bus and it had a sign that it was going to City X. The sign was quite large and very clear. From her angle and mine it was clearly visible and it was obvious where the bus was going. The sign was even illuminated.

My bus was late so I didn't look at her and I felt upset about the whole situation so I just bluntly pointed out where the bus going, and paid no attention to her. She thanked me and left.

So my question is that which one was more likely: That she went to the bus station without being able to see more than vague shapes that were presumably buildings and buses, OR that she was trying to flirt with me? If latter, then I have to say that it's an amazing tactic.

If I was a blind person, I'd ask the driver about the destination (the bus was right there) and if I was nearly blind, I'd get a bit closer to the bus - the sign was really that easy to see.

P.S. I don't have much experience about the visually impaired, so if I'm being ignorant, please don't get worked up. I'm just speculating.

[Philemonite]

Let me ask you a very silly question... It's an old thing that I never forgot.

I was waiting outside a bus station. Suddenly a nice-looking girl came to me, pointed at a bus in front of us, and with a smile on her face asked me where the bus was going. I looked at the bus and it had a sign that it was going to City X. The sign was quiet large and very clear. From her angle and mine it was clearly visible and it was obvious where the bus was going. The sign was even illuminated.

My bus was late so I didn't look at her and I felt upset about the whole situation so I just bluntly pointed out where the bus going, and paid no attention to her. She thanked me and left.

So my question is that which one was more likely: That she went to the bus station without being able to see more than vague shapes that were presumably buildings and buses, OR that she was trying to flirt with me? If latter, then I have to say that it's an amazing tactic.

If I was a blind person, I'd ask the driver about the destination (the bus was right there) and if I was nearly blind, I'd get a bit closer to the bus - the sign was really that easy to see.

P.S. I don't have much experience about the visually impaired, so if I'm being ignorant, please don't get worked up. I'm just speculating.

I'm 99,9% sure she was flirting with you.

In my experience a girl doesn't smile at you without a reason.:smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

We're just going to hang out at my place, watch some movies and catch up. Does that constitute a date actually? I'm starting to think she just used that word to screw with me.

If you're actually interacting rather than ignoring one another in favor of staring at the movie, sure. Mostly it's that it's a date if it's believed to be a date and agreed to be a date by both parties.

That said, movies generally aren't the best of dates, but you do what you can do.


I'm mostly worried because this is the first time I get to talk to her in person when she actually knows how I feel about her.

So, what, do you think you'll do something worse than putting your foot in your mouth by going on about My Little Pony without even a proper introduction and then ignoring her to talk to your friend? :smallconfused:

Because she gave you her name and bloody phone number when you did that as your first impression.

The fact that she even still wants to see you again after finding out about all that suggests that you're in pretty damn stable territory, and then she wants to try things out on top of that?

As I alluded to earlier, there's only a few ways she could be any more positive and most of them involve tearing off of clothing, propositioning, and literal silver platters rather than figurative ones.

Though, as Ytaker points out, rest on your laurels and you'll probably get burned or at least left unsatisfied.


I sincerely do not know how to respond to this. Am I supposed to agree with you and seek a psychiatric professional? Or disagree and actually argue all of the self-worth I have? I honestly don't know how to describe myself in a fair light because in all my 19 years of life, I'm no closer to knowing who I am than I was when I started this journey.

Food for thought, I suppose.


It's common in friendships too. You can fall in love with your best friend even though you know that they aren't attracted to you. Or even if they are attracted to you but you don't want to ruin your relationship.

I'm always amazed at just how ubiquitous the thought is that two people falling in love with one another would ruin their relationship.


Had lesser irritating crushes and falling heads over heels. Those were with friends that I didn't want to see that way and knew they didn't want to see that way, either because they were in a relationship or chasing someone else.

Funny thing that you've reminded me of is that I've actually had my most satisfying relationships when my attention has been grabbed away from chasing a girl and held by another girl.

Granted, sometimes it does feel a little bit frustrating when I look back and see just how futile the act of deciding to pursue has been, but I imagine that's more about my own personal failings and lack of redeeming qualities than anything else. :smalltongue:


Let me ask you a very silly question... It's an old thing that I never forgot.

I was waiting outside a bus station. Suddenly a nice-looking girl came to me, pointed at a bus in front of us, and with a smile on her face asked me where the bus was going. I looked at the bus and it had a sign that it was going to City X. The sign was quite large and very clear. From her angle and mine it was clearly visible and it was obvious where the bus was going. The sign was even illuminated.

My bus was late so I didn't look at her and I felt upset about the whole situation so I just bluntly pointed out where the bus going, and paid no attention to her. She thanked me and left.

So my question is that which one was more likely: That she went to the bus station without being able to see more than vague shapes that were presumably buildings and buses, OR that she was trying to flirt with me? If latter, then I have to say that it's an amazing tactic.

If I was a blind person, I'd ask the driver about the destination (the bus was right there) and if I was nearly blind, I'd get a bit closer to the bus - the sign was really that easy to see.

P.S. I don't have much experience about the visually impaired, so if I'm being ignorant, please don't get worked up. I'm just speculating.

Impossible to say at this point what the story was, but between the two, I suppose flirting is more likely given what little we have to go on. My general knowledge and gut feeling is that a visual impairment would have come up as part of the request or been obvious if you paid her enough attention to see that she was smiling in the first place. But that could be woefully inaccurate or just plain wrong.

Also, my first thought was something to do with dyslexia or some form of functional illiteracy rather than something like being legally blind or having lost contacts/glasses.

[Grinner]

I'm always amazed at just how ubiquitous the thought is that two people falling in love with one another would ruin their relationship.

I don't think it's so much the relationship as it is the seemingly inevitable implosion of the relationship. Can you really go back to being "just friends" after that?

[BWR]

I have friends who've had this sort of relationship.
Knew each other for 13 years or so, she was rather interested in him, he's oblivious, they live half a country apart but are still friends.
They get together, find out it didn't work and stayed friends.

I don't know how common that sort of thing is, but it is at least possible.

[theangelJean]

I'm always amazed at just how ubiquitous the thought is that two people falling in love with one another would ruin their relationship.



I don't think it's so much the relationship as it is the seemingly inevitable implosion of the relationship. Can you really go back to being "just friends" after that?

I would call that 'jumping to conclusions' or even a future-projected form of 'catastrophising' - assuming that the worst will happen. It will only ruin the relationship if 1) you're not compatible AND 2) you end up treating each other in a way that is worse than where you started. Neither of these is necessarily true, in that 1) good romantic relationships can be created from previously existing friendships, and even if this doesn't happen, 2) people do break up amicably, you're just less likely to read about it in the paper :P That said, catastrophising is quite common, although it is also a symptom of anxiety disorders and depression.

TL;DR: the "implosion of the relationship" is NOT "inevitable". But people often worry about it anyway.

[Grinner]

TL;DR: the "implosion of the relationship" is NOT "inevitable". But people often worry about it anyway.

Hmmm...You're right. I probably should have tossed "the fear of" somewhere in there.

[Arcanist]

If you're actually interacting rather than ignoring one another in favor of staring at the movie, sure. Mostly it's that it's a date if it's believed to be a date and agreed to be a date by both parties.

I really should become aware that I can just ask this girl anything and she'll answer back honestly. I asked her if she considered this a date and she said that she thought it was so apparently it is.


So, what, do you think you'll do something worse than putting your foot in your mouth by going on about My Little Pony without even a proper introduction and then ignoring her to talk to your friend? :smallconfused:

Because she gave you her name and bloody phone number when you did that as your first impression.

I was a really weird kid in High School :smallconfused: I guess I must be doing something right considering that she still likes talking to me despite everything I've done. Maybe if I was a little bit more confident I wouldn't actually need to ask this sort of question and would have just told her how I feel about her earlier.

Why am I nervous again?


The fact that she even still wants to see you again after finding out about all that suggests that you're in pretty damn stable territory, and then she wants to try things out on top of that?

As I alluded to earlier, there's only a few ways she could be any more positive and most of them involve tearing off of clothing, propositioning, and literal silver platters rather than figurative ones.

Though, as Ytaker points out, rest on your laurels and you'll probably get burned or at least left unsatisfied.

Thank you Coidzor. This has actually been rather eye opening. It seems that she likes me just as much as I like her... What was about tearing off clothing? We've talked about it and thought about it... It would be a hell of a hint though :smallamused:

[Rawhide]

*peeks in*

Arcanist:

"Do you want to go out on a date?"

Based on what you said, there's only one correct answer to this:
FRACK YEAH


*leaves quietly*

[Ytaker]

I was a really weird kid in High School :smallconfused: I guess I must be doing something right considering that she still likes talking to me despite everything I've done. Maybe if I was a little bit more confident I wouldn't actually need to ask this sort of question and would have just told her how I feel about her earlier.:

Some people just seem really sexy to other people, due to their smell or looks or behaviour.

It might be that while you were being a weird kid in high school she was fantasizing about you and talking to her friends about whether she should ask you out.

[Sajiri]

I have a problem..

Alright, I'm married, I know I'm not perfect but I feel I try pretty hard for my husband and do a lot for him without even being asked, and I am happy to. He, on the other hand...well, I'm lucky if I can even get 5 minutes of his time without him going back to check his computer for other people talking to him. Whats really bothering me is he doesnt listen to me until someone else brings up the same thing. We moved into a new house earlier this year and I've been asking him to take care of the yard for months. I can't do it myself, because I have allergies with the seeds on the longer grass. Yes, I am allergic to grass. He did nothing until the rental agency called him and asked us to handle the yard, he looked at lawn mowing services and didnt go any further. Just today, we got threatened with an eviction notice if it's not handled in a week.

It took an eviction notice to get him to do anything about it. This is pretty usual, I'll ask him to do something, he wont until someone else says the same thing. I dunno...what do I do to get him to stop ignoring me?

[Coidzor]

Sajiri, it seems that the problem is severe enough that you'll be needing the services of a marriage counselor and possibly a mental health professional.

I would also recommend looking into the signs of abuse (http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects .htm), especially emotional abuse.

[Sajiri]

Sajiri, it seems that the problem is severe enough that you'll be needing the services of a marriage counselor and possibly a mental health professional.

I would also recommend looking into the signs of abuse (http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects .htm), especially emotional abuse.

Actually, I have suggested counselling before to him, he said 'okay' but nothing came of it. He's convinced I need counselling on my own for...whatever he seems to think, but thats it.

It's not an abusive marriage just..neglectful I guess.

Edit: Actually skimming over the signs in that link, maybe I need to rethink that last statement

It goes more than just, ignoring when I ask to do something I guess. He does have anger issues, I always take that more as arrogance though. He seems to think that everyone is just out to get in his way, and he is always right. Someone steps in front of him in the grocery store? Purposely getting in his way to make him angry. Bank wont bend rules when he needs to do something and doesnt have all the info? They're being asses trying to make things hard for him. He does freak out and get angry at me over things he makes up in his head sometimes. If we go out in the car, I might be tired because I woke up early, or didn't sleep well. He'll ask why I'm being mopey, I just explain Im tired is all, but that's not good enough for him. He'll keep pressuring me to tell him 'what's wrong' and ignoring the answer I give until he completely flips out screaming at me over it.

Actually, the last big argument we had started exactly that way. He knows I have some really bad anxiety and depression issues, and even though I'm proud of how far I've come in the last few years, he told me last time I just 'make it up for sympathy/convenience' and told me that if I'm so depressed then to go ahead and kill myself.

Thing is, despite that he's incredibly rude, lazy and arrogant, when he's in a good mood, he's all 'I love you' 'I dont want to be without you' 'I'll always protect you'...I know that's pretty typical of when you hear about abusive partners but when I hear it now I just start to get annoyed because I'm so tired of hearing him say stuff like that, then contradicting it the next time he's angry. But I'm so tired of feeling like I talk to a brick wall I don't even bother trying to bring it up to him anymore because he twists everything to make him innocent and responds with things that have no relevance to what I want to discuss.

Ahh...I think I just depressed myself =_=

[The Succubus]

<snip>

*hugs Sajiri*

Reading through it, it certainly does seem as though he's taking you for granted. There's a world of difference between saying "I love you" to someone and wanting to hug them, hold them and kiss them. Have you thought about spending some time apart from him so you can both gain a little perspective?

[Philemonite]

Actually, I have suggested counselling before to him, he said 'okay' but nothing came of it. He's convinced I need counselling on my own for...whatever he seems to think, but thats it.

It's not an abusive marriage just..neglectful I guess.

Edit: Actually skimming over the signs in that link, maybe I need to rethink that last statement

It goes more than just, ignoring when I ask to do something I guess. He does have anger issues, I always take that more as arrogance though. He seems to think that everyone is just out to get in his way, and he is always right. Someone steps in front of him in the grocery store? Purposely getting in his way to make him angry. Bank wont bend rules when he needs to do something and doesnt have all the info? They're being asses trying to make things hard for him. He does freak out and get angry at me over things he makes up in his head sometimes. If we go out in the car, I might be tired because I woke up early, or didn't sleep well. He'll ask why I'm being mopey, I just explain Im tired is all, but that's not good enough for him. He'll keep pressuring me to tell him 'what's wrong' and ignoring the answer I give until he completely flips out screaming at me over it.

Actually, the last big argument we had started exactly that way. He knows I have some really bad anxiety and depression issues, and even though I'm proud of how far I've come in the last few years, he told me last time I just 'make it up for sympathy/convenience' and told me that if I'm so depressed then to go ahead and kill myself.

Thing is, despite that he's incredibly rude, lazy and arrogant, when he's in a good mood, he's all 'I love you' 'I dont want to be without you' 'I'll always protect you'...I know that's pretty typical of when you hear about abusive partners but when I hear it now I just start to get annoyed because I'm so tired of hearing him say stuff like that, then contradicting it the next time he's angry. But I'm so tired of feeling like I talk to a brick wall I don't even bother trying to bring it up to him anymore because he twists everything to make him innocent and responds with things that have no relevance to what I want to discuss.

Ahh...I think I just depressed myself =_=

Don't get depressive, get active. Easier said than done, I know, but you have to do something. Bring up marriage counseling again, and this time set a date. Make him listen to you, don't back down. I know confrontation can be frightening, but it's better than the alternative.

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm probably wrong, but I'd check what is going on in his internet life that is so interesting for him. Of course It's possible that his friends are just chatting with him, but every 5 minutes? Maybe he will not let you in, but it might be worth a shot to see what he actually does online. I'm not saying that you have to spy on him or access his accounts or e-mails without his permission, but just trying get involved so that you know what's going on there.

[Sajiri]

I'm probably wrong, but I'd check up what is going on in his internet life that is so interesting for him. Of course It's possible that his friends are just chatting with him, but every 5 minutes? Maybe he will not let you in, but it might be worth a shot to see what he actually does online. I'm not saying that you have to spy on him or access his accounts or e-mails without his permission, but just trying get involved so that you know what's going on there.

I have checked in the past, when I've walked by and seen rather..suspect things on his screen. For the most part, at least now, he's just talking to friends, because apparently they are more interesting/important than talking to his wife, but there's been other stuff in the past. I just gave up with that when I discovered the 2000+ photos/videos of naked women after he opened a folder in front of me and I saw them all right there (thats not including the many more drawn/animated ones) in which his defence was 'every guy looks at that' and when I tried to explain it made me feel unnattractive and upset, he got angry and told me he's going to do whatever he feels and look at whatever he wants on his computer.

Meanwhile he was angry at me for putting a lock on my computer because he was religously sneaking on it to look at my msn convos with all my friends and getting angry at me if I said anything even remotely negative about him because it made him look bad, and even changing my password to some things like mmo accounts on occassion until I 'stopped freaking out' aka being upset with how he was treating me.

[noparlpf]

Yeah, that is an abusive relationship.

[Philemonite]

Yeah, that is an abusive relationship.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with this.

[Sajiri]

We actually met years ago through an MMO. I was very hesitant to get into an online relationship with someone on the other side of the world, but we gave it a try and things went well. He came to visit me in person, went even better. I ended up moving to the US for a while to live with him to see how we'd go for a long period together in person. We did have some disagreements and arguments then but he was always willing to listen to me and we could work anything out without issue. He would take me places he thought I'd enjoy, do things like surprise me with flowers, cook dinner if I was tired, and try to spoil me with shopping trips or whatever even though I had more money and told him he didnt have to do it. We got engaged while I was there, I came back here when my visa was up, we were planning that I would move there permanently but life changes happened and he ended up moving here instead.

It seems as soon as he moved here everything changed, I just took it as he was adjusting to a new country because its difficult when you dont know anybody, and my parents were being horrible to him as well. I bought him his car, helped him find work, paid for everything with the wedding, and when we found a place together I was paying for all the bills and groceries, yet somehow I still had more money than him (he was spending it all on games, meals for himself, porn, and paying mmo subs for his trans friend). Suddenly everything revolves around his mood, whether or not he wants to do something, what he wants, etc. It worked when we were in america because I wasn't able to work then, I was perfectly happy playing housewife there while he was at work. Now we're here, I also have a full time job like him, and yet it still seems like everything is about how his day went, he's tired from work, it doesnt matter about how I feel, despite I'm usually home later than him, and I'm always up earlier than him to make his lunch since he would never do it himself.

Ok, so, maybe I'm rambling and complaining here. I don't really have any kind of a support group since my family are...well lets not get into my family, I'll just say they're the sort of people who would deprive their child of food 1-2 days at a time regularly and would physically push them out the door and lock it so they couldnt come back in until night and leave it at that to give an idea of that. My friends don't live near me anymore and I rarely get to see or talk to them these days so aside from my husband and my psychotic coworker and work clients, I don't really talk to anyone :s Although saying all this here is making me realise =_= maybe I really do have to enforce the counselling thing some more.

[Philemonite]

We actually met years ago through an MMO. I was very hesitant to get into an online relationship with someone on the other side of the world, but we gave it a try and things went well. He came to visit me in person, went even better. I ended up moving to the US for a while to live with him to see how we'd go for a long period together in person. We did have some disagreements and arguments then but he was always willing to listen to me and we could work anything out without issue. He would take me places he thought I'd enjoy, do things like surprise me with flowers, cook dinner if I was tired, and try to spoil me with shopping trips or whatever even though I had more money and told him he didnt have to do it. We got engaged while I was there, I came back here when my visa was up, we were planning that I would move there permanently but life changes happened and he ended up moving here instead.

It seems as soon as he moved here everything changed, I just took it as he was adjusting to a new country because its difficult when you dont know anybody, and my parents were being horrible to him as well. I bought him his car, helped him find work, paid for everything with the wedding, and when we found a place together I was paying for all the bills and groceries, yet somehow I still had more money than him (he was spending it all on games, meals for himself, porn, and paying mmo subs for his trans friend). Suddenly everything revolves around his mood, whether or not he wants to do something, what he wants, etc. It worked when we were in america because I wasn't able to work then, I was perfectly happy playing housewife there while he was at work. Now we're here, I also have a full time job like him, and yet it still seems like everything is about how his day went, he's tired from work, it doesnt matter about how I feel, despite I'm usually home later than him, and I'm always up earlier than him to make his lunch since he would never do it himself.

Ok, so, maybe I'm rambling and complaining here. I don't really have any kind of a support group since my family are...well lets not get into my family, I'll just say they're the sort of people who would deprive their child of food 1-2 days at a time regularly and would physically push them out the door and lock it so they couldnt come back in until night and leave it at that to give an idea of that. My friends don't live near me anymore and I rarely get to see or talk to them these days so aside from my husband and my psychotic coworker and work clients, I don't really talk to anyone :s Although saying all this here is making me realise =_= maybe I really do have to enforce the counselling thing some more.



As far as support goes, you came to the right place, playgrounder are very supportive. I don't really believe in ultimatums, but you should make him realize that this issues are not going to go away, and that you both have to work on it if it is going to work. And do not take his ****.

[Sajiri]

As far as support goes, you came to the right place, playgrounder are very supportive. I don't really believe in ultimatums, but you should make him realize that this issues are not going to go away, and that you both have to work on it if it is going to work. And do not take his ****.

Yeah..I kind of just have this thing though, I can't really even explain why (I'm not sure) any kind of confrontation where I have to talk to someone, before I even start talking I feel physically exhausted and mentally numb. It was something that was brought up when I had counselling for a different matter long before I even met him, but with that, I try to talk to him, and as soon as he starts cutting me off, or ignoring it saying 'things are fine, dont worry' I just lose any will to talk.

Funnily enough, he just called me from work, asking me if things are okay and saying I know I can talk to him right? He does say this from time to time, and I really want to believe him, but whenver I try to talk..it will go one of three ways. If he's in a bad mood, it leads to an argument..and argument being him yelling and insulting me while I just sit there. If he's calm it will either be the 'everything's fine' thing again, or he will start saying 'what have I done wrong? I think I've been a good husband lately' he'll then list off a few small things he's done recently, which I do all the time anyway like taking the trash out or cooking the rare meal, and then lead into him yelling and imagining I'm saying all these things back to him when Im not saying a thing.

I suppose after work tonight I should try to talk seriously again :/ and hopefully he will listen for a change.

[Philemonite]

Yeah..I kind of just have this thing though, I can't really even explain why (I'm not sure) any kind of confrontation where I have to talk to someone, before I even start talking I feel physically exhausted and mentally numb. It was something that was brought up when I had counselling for a different matter long before I even met him, but with that, I try to talk to him, and as soon as he starts cutting me off, or ignoring it saying 'things are fine, dont worry' I just lose any will to talk.

Funnily enough, he just called me from work, asking me if things are okay and saying I know I can talk to him right? He does say this from time to time, and I really want to believe him, but whenver I try to talk..it will go one of three ways. If he's in a bad mood, it leads to an argument..and argument being him yelling and insulting me while I just sit there. If he's calm it will either be the 'everything's fine' thing again, or he will start saying 'what have I done wrong? I think I've been a good husband lately' he'll then list off a few small things he's done recently, which I do all the time anyway like taking the trash out or cooking the rare meal, and then lead into him yelling and imagining I'm saying all these things back to him when Im not saying a thing.

I suppose after work tonight I should try to talk seriously again :/ and hopefully he will listen for a change.

I know what you mean, I have the same problem, but one thing you have to remember is that if things stay the same you won't be happy, and he won't be happy, so something must be done. Deep breaths always help me calm down.

[Grinner]

Good luck, Sajiri.

[The Rose Dragon]

So I'm a coward, and I'm looking into alternate sources of courage (other than liquid). Possible examples include carrying a written note (either to read from or to hand over), listening to Manowar beforehand or getting someone else to do it for me.

Terrible ideas, I know, but I don't know what to do at this point. Every time I'm about to do it, she asks a pointed question that just drains all my nerve, and I'm back to square one.

[Coidzor]

So I'm a coward, and I'm looking into alternate sources of courage (other than liquid). Possible examples include carrying a written note (either to read from or to hand over), listening to Manowar beforehand or getting someone else to do it for me.

Terrible ideas, I know, but I don't know what to do at this point. Every time I'm about to do it, she asks a pointed question that just drains all my nerve, and I'm back to square one.

If you need a reminder, I'd recommend designating an object you would not normally carry with you and which will be conspicuous as a sort of talisman until you do the thing you intend to do.

The old Scouting standby of carrying a coin or medallion in one's pocket and then surreptitiously switching which pocket it is in upon doing a good deed for the day is the most subtle form that I can recall at the moment, but I'm sure that other methods can be thought of.

[Castaras]

Having some sort of charm / item to give confidence I find to be ridiculously useful, and I can vouch for its effectiveness with me (cute butterfly necklace given to me by a certain awesome snakey australian lady), although for me it was extra confidence to fight against anxiety.

Sajiri: I can't offer anything more than what has already been said.

I would have said marriage counselling, but I think you need to see someone by yourself to help you get out of there. Abusive relationships are very hard to get out, and having some sort of support to talk to and get advice from will be a huge help.

[Serpentine]

Having some sort of charm / item to give confidence I find to be ridiculously useful, and I can vouch for its effectiveness with me (cute butterfly necklace given to me by a certain awesome snakey australian lady), although for me it was extra confidence to fight against anxiety.Awwww! I'm glad it's more than just a pretty thing for you! ^_^

Sajiri: Yeeeaaah. I admit I was pretty leery at Coids' leap straightfor the abusive r'ship list, but after that extra information I'm definitely leaning that way. Expecting more respect for privacy than he's willing to offer is a particularly bignone for me. I second the motion for pushing hard for counseling for the both of you, and for yourself as well. And please be safe - we don't know that it will, but if it does escalate please get out of there. Where in Australia are you? You might have a potential real-world support network right here.

[Feytalist]

So I'm a coward, and I'm looking into alternate sources of courage (other than liquid). Possible examples include carrying a written note (either to read from or to hand over), listening to Manowar beforehand or getting someone else to do it for me.

Terrible ideas, I know, but I don't know what to do at this point. Every time I'm about to do it, she asks a pointed question that just drains all my nerve, and I'm back to square one.

So this works for me; it might work for you too:

I guess it's similar to the idea of a wingman. Have a solid friend with you, someone who knows what you're up to, someone who fully supports you. You know, someone who will give you a pat on the shoulder and say "go for it buddy, you're gonna be awesome". And then wait for you around the corner or whatever while you do your thing. It sounds trite, but I find just having "backup" (for lack of a better word) does wonders for your confidence. Also it puts a bit of necessary pressure on you (having someone sort of watching over your shoulder helps a lot).

Hope this helps.

[Silverrida]

So is this where I post to express feelings that I am going to be alone forever?

[rogueboy]

So is this where I post to express feelings that I am going to be alone forever?

Only if you're prepared to elaborate on the why! Then we generally say things back at you to try to get you to break out of that mindset. Hopefully that's what you're hoping for (well, and commiseration, we do that too).

[Coidzor]

So is this where I post to express feelings that I am going to be alone forever?

That would be a woe, aye.

What's up?

[Aedilred]

So this is a slightly/really awkward situation I've found myself in. A few years ago (three years almost to the day) the love of my life to date left me and, while I (now) don't want her back, I'm still not really "over" that. I'm actually relatively happy with being single right now. So that's that.

In the meantime, however, I've acquired a housemate who obviously has a thing for me. While I had suspected for a while, this was later confirmed at a party a few months ago and then confirmed again by another friend better at judging these things in the last couple of weeks (precise words: "you do realise she's in love with you, right?"). The thing is that, notwithstanding the above, while she's fine as a friend/housemate I really have no interest in her as a potential partner, and I worry she's mistaken friendship/politeness for chemistry. There are lots of other reasons why a relationship between us would be a really bad idea, but "I don't like her in that way" is good enough for me.

Until now I had been trusting to the "ignore it and hope it goes away" principle, on the basis that if I took no action to further our relationship then it wouldn't be an issue, especially since she had previously suggested she was far too passively-minded ever to ask anyone out.

However, after a night out tonight with a friend of mine she managed to pluck up the courage actually to ask me out. I demurred on the basis I had had too much to drink (enough to be plausible, not so much as to affect fundamentally my judgment) but it seems I'm going to have to do something sooner or later. I like having her as a housemate but really don't see a future for us as anything more than that... but I don't want to hurt her feelings, etc.. Any advice welcome!

[Jallorn]

Well, I can say from personal experience that the anticipation of waiting sucks, so I wouldn't recommend waiting too long. Also, there is no way I know of for no one to get hurt, so the only thing to do is to be direct and simply minimize the pain. Like ripping a band aid off. Bad analogy?

[noparlpf]

So this is a slightly/really awkward situation I've found myself in. A few years ago (three years almost to the day) the love of my life to date left me and I'm still not really over that. While I don't want her back, I' still not terribly happy with what happened and can't in good conscience say I'm "over" that. On the other hand, I don't really want her back, and I'm relatively happy with being single right now. So that's that.

In the meantime, however, I've acquired a housemate who obviously has a thing for me. While I had suspected for a while, this was later confirmed at a party and then confirmed again by another friend better at judging these things (precise words: "you do realise she's in love with you, right?"). The thing is that, notwithstanding the above, while she's fine as a friend/housemate I really have no interest in her as a potential partner, and I worry she's mistaken friendship/politeness for chemistry. There are lots of other reasons why a relationship between us would be a really bad idea, but "I don't like her in that way" is good enough for me.

Until now I had been trusting to the "ignore it and hope it goes away" principle, on the basis that if I took no action to further our relationship then it wouldn't be an issue, especially since she had previously suggested she was far too passively-minded ever to ask anyone out.

However, after a night out tonight with a friend of mine she managed to pluck up the courage actually to ask me out. I demurred on the basis I had had too much to drink (enough to be plausible, not so much as to affect fundamentally my judgment) but it seems I'm going to have to do something sooner or later. I like having her as a housemate but really don't see a future for us as anything more than that... but I don't want to hurt her feelings, etc.. Any advice welcome!

Try saying all of that to her. "I like you as a friend, but that's it. I don't see a relationship between us working out." She might be a bit sad for now, but it's much better than dragging it out.

[Coidzor]

Until now I had been trusting to the "ignore it and hope it goes away" principle, on the basis that if I took no action to further our relationship then it wouldn't be an issue, especially since she had previously suggested she was far too passively-minded ever to ask anyone out.

It's really a shame that I can't think of any language which would not violate one standard of decency or another to really communicate the necessary emphasis for just how bad of an idea and poor of a strategy such a course of action is.

Suffice to say that it is as close to being the exact wrong response to the belief that someone is misinterpreting your normal behavior as flirtation or interest that I can think of at the moment.


However, after a night out tonight with a friend of mine she managed to pluck up the courage actually to ask me out. I demurred on the basis I had had too much to drink (enough to be plausible, not so much as to affect fundamentally my judgment) but it seems I'm going to have to do something sooner or later. I like having her as a housemate but really don't see a future for us as anything more than that... but I don't want to hurt her feelings, etc.. Any advice welcome!

Don't demur. Demurring is generally bad and only something one does in response to threats one cannot deal with. Also, it works at cross purposes to your stated desire to not hurt her feelings.

Really, it's just a matter of how much you're going to tell her of why you're not interested when you tell her that you're not interested and word choice and body language.


Sajiri: Yeeeaaah. I admit I was pretty leery at Coids' leap straightfor the abusive r'ship list, but after that extra information I'm definitely leaning that way. Expecting more respect for privacy than he's willing to offer is a particularly bignone for me. I second the motion for pushing hard for counseling for the both of you, and for yourself as well. And please be safe - we don't know that it will, but if it does escalate please get out of there. Where in Australia are you? You might have a potential real-world support network right here.

Well, it was the first link I could find that even dealt with emotional stuff at all, and I couldn't find one on neglect.

I still don't really know what to say though.

[Castaras]

Aedilred: Don't delay this sort of thing. Delaying and making excuses to not give an answer just makes it worse. Being direct and getting it over with is better.

[Serpentine]

Try to be honest and conclusive, but kind and tactful.

[Glass Mouse]

Don't demur. Demurring is generally bad and only something one does in response to threats one cannot deal with. Also, it works at cross purposes to your stated desire to not hurt her feelings.

This, this, this. I can understand ignoring the whole thing if you're not sure and don't want to make assumptions, but if your goal was to minimize the hurt, you really should have adressed the issue when you got the confirmation.

Putting off an answer really does more harm than good. Wish-washing leaves the other person with a feeling of being stringed along and disrespected. A clear answer still hurts, but at least it shows some basic respect for the other person's emotions and lets them get closure.

Literally the next time you see her, give her a clear and nice answer.

[Aedilred]

Literally the next time you see her, give her a clear and nice answer.
Yeah, this is my intention. I had had rather a lot to drink last night and wasn't thinking entirely clearly, so it wasn't really a conversation I wanted to get into in that state.

[Silverrida]

Only if you're prepared to elaborate on the why! Then we generally say things back at you to try to get you to break out of that mindset. Hopefully that's what you're hoping for (well, and commiseration, we do that too).


That would be a woe, aye.

What's up?

Thank you for your concern.

I just...ugh. A relationship is practically all I want at this point. I'm so desperate for one. But it is impossible for me to get one.

I've never been in a relationship before. I've only ever been rejected. On two occasions, my desperation was distinctly interpreted and used so that I could be a sort of emotional crutch for the women in those cases, but that is all.

I'm 20, which is young still, but as more time goes on people want to be with someone with experience.

Like, would you get with someone who has the same amount of dating experience as an early high schooler? Those relationships tend to fall apart immediately. I don't expect that to happen to me, but it is a stigma that comes with inexperience, and it only gets harder as I get older.

And again, even though I'm young it seems that everyone I know IRL has at least been in a relationship. There's one person in the same situation as me that I know IRL and he acts practically asexual and isn't looking for anyone. I'm pretty sure if he were he'd succeed. Meanwhile, I've only ever failed.

This adds up, on top of other forms of rejection in my life (including my parents) and leads me to feel unlovable and forever alone. I don't feel like anyone would ever want to date me. I feel abhorrent, but I can't identify what about me is, other than physical appearance and the desperation itself.

[Philemonite]

Thank you for your concern.

I just...ugh. A relationship is practically all I want at this point. I'm so desperate for one. But it is impossible for me to get one.

I've never been in a relationship before. I've only ever been rejected. On two occasions, my desperation was distinctly interpreted and used so that I could be a sort of emotional crutch for the women in those cases, but that is all.

I'm 20, which is young still, but as more time goes on people want to be with someone with experience.

Like, would you get with someone who has the same amount of dating experience as an early high schooler? Those relationships tend to fall apart immediately. I don't expect that to happen to me, but it is a stigma that comes with inexperience, and it only gets harder as I get older.

And again, even though I'm young it seems that everyone I know IRL has at least been in a relationship. There's one person in the same situation as me that I know IRL and he acts practically asexual and isn't looking for anyone. I'm pretty sure if he were he'd succeed. Meanwhile, I've only ever failed.

This adds up, on top of other forms of rejection in my life (including my parents) and leads me to feel unlovable and forever alone. I don't feel like anyone would ever want to date me. I feel abhorrent, but I can't identify what about me is, other than physical appearance and the desperation itself.

First thing, in this thread, you are loved.
Second, there are probably plenty of girls that would date you, you just need to find them.
Third, ask yourself do you want to be in a relationship just because everyone else is, do you want it for yourself.

Best advice I can give you is be positive. You need to start to believe you will find a girlfriend. No, this will not magically conjure a girlfriend, but confidence does wonders when making an impression. The sooner you stop believing you are going to be alone forever, the greater chances to find that special girl.

[Silverrida]

First thing, in this thread, you are loved.
Second, there are probably plenty of girls that would date you, you just need to find them.
Third, ask yourself do you want to be in a relationship just because everyone else is, do you want it for yourself.

Best advice I can give you is be positive. You need to start to believe you will find a girlfriend. No, this will not magically conjure a girlfriend, but confidence does wonders when making an impression. The sooner you stop believing you are going to be alone forever, the greater chances to find that special girl.

That's good to hear :) Thank you.

I don't believe that.

And I definitely desire to be in a relationship. The reason I talk about other people so much is because that is part of the data set I use to deduce that I'm abnormal and unlovable.

I don't want a relationship because other people. I want a relationship, can't get one, and other people make me feel like I should be able to but I can't because I'm awful.

And yeah, I am aware of the confidence thing, but I find just having blind faith to be incredibly difficult.

Thank you for replying.

[Philemonite]

That's good to hear :) Thank you.

I don't believe that.

And I definitely desire to be in a relationship. The reason I talk about other people so much is because that is part of the data set I use to deduce that I'm abnormal and unlovable.

I don't want a relationship because other people. I want a relationship, can't get one, and other people make me feel like I should be able to but I can't because I'm awful.

And yeah, I am aware of the confidence thing, but I find just having blind faith to be incredibly difficult.

Thank you for replying.

Blind faith=Stupidity, I agree, but the confidence thing is real, and it helped me a lot.

You are not abnormal, you are different, but we are all different (we are all snowflakes and stuff).
You are not unlovable, you just haven't found the right person.

I have an idea that might help. Sit down, take a piece of paper (you can not do this on a computer) and write down all of your qualities and your flaws. Be honest, since this list is just for you. Then, take a good look at it and see witch one would be appealing to an ordinary girl. I think that should help.

[Aedilred]

I'm 20, which is young still, but as more time goes on people want to be with someone with experience.

Like, would you get with someone who has the same amount of dating experience as an early high schooler? Those relationships tend to fall apart immediately. I don't expect that to happen to me, but it is a stigma that comes with inexperience, and it only gets harder as I get older.
Seriously, I wouldn't worry about this. While the initial dating business can be a bit awkward if you don't know what you're doing, anyone who actually likes you for you won't give a flying fig about your inexperience, especially if you're honest, and people (your partner, your/their friends) are usually happy to help if you do genuinely get "stuck". At least, that's been my experience.

For reference, I was 21 when I began my first relationship (my girlfriend was a year younger than me with several previous bfs) and everything was fine for years.

The other advice I'd give is that people who are desperate for a relationship can often be quite obvious, and don't always appear an attractive prospect as a result - they can come across as needy or a bit sad, even if that's not actually the case. Rather than devote all your energies into trying to acquire "a relationship", I'd try to focus on your current situation and try to enjoy life as a single person, because that'll make you more attractive to potential partners.

Further, remember that relationships are about individuals, not a vague state of affairs. Everyone and every relationship is different. Rather than looking for a relationship with whoever will have you, go looking for someone you want - sometimes such people turn out to have been right in front of you the whole time.

...

I spoke to my housemate and she seemed to take it alright without any real further question or comment (which was what I was most concerned about), although she's now hiding in her room so I hope she's ok. At least it's dealt with now, and hopefully it won't affect the rest of our relationship as friends/housemates.

[Glass Mouse]

I was one of the early relationship-getters among my friends (got mine at 15), but my friend group is filled with people who started late. I know two girls who were 20-21 when they got their first boyfriends, another who still doesn't have one at 24, one guy who got his first at 23 (which lasted two months), my youngest brother just got his first at 20, my other brother (22) still hasn't got one. And that's in the "inner circle". Seriously, the romantically well-traveled are the minority among my friends.

It really all depends on the social circles in which you move. 20 doesn't seem late or strange to me at all. In other circles, it would be late, and in some it would even be early. So don't trust your data sample too much.

Also: I know society is pretty insistent that an "S.O. experience" trumphs a "single experience", but while you don't have a relationship, you have an entirely different skillset and experience set. Believe me when I say it's valuable - I'm newly single for the first time since I was 15, and I have NO idea how to handle things due to my lack of experience in that area. I know it's kind of a "grass is greener" thing; I'm just trying to say that there is a lot of value to your situation even though it might not feel like it :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

All right, so...

There's this guy. Who I like. Yeah. Now, I know you're looking at my gender and going "Ah, there may be a problem here." But no, that's not quite it. It's the fact that he doesn't really want me. In his own words (about me), "I like him, but I don't like like him." So I know how he feels about me. Or at least, assuming he hasn't changed over the last year or so.

But...

Whenever I look at him, My heart twinges slightly. I just feel so attached to him, even though I don't really know him too well. I have really strong feelings for him. Whenever I try to talk to him I just can't speak about my feelings. We make jokes about being gay and whatever, but ever that feels so awkward...

I know I may sound pathetic, but I keep thinking of him, I dream of him, I fantasize about him... and I can't talk to anyone else about it, because they won't talk about gay relationships. Yay.

Feeling really pathetic after all that. Ugh. Help?

[Glass Mouse]

I can't talk to anyone else about it, because they won't talk about gay relationships. Yay.

I know it doesn't fix the problem if you get the answer you expect, but it might be an idea to ask him out? If nothing else, it'll give you closure and quell the "what if"s that comes from not knowing (and sometimes people feel differently with time and circumstances changed).

Also, the quoted part stod out to me. If you have crappy, homophobic friends, it might be time to start branching out a little and go looking for new friends who care enough about you to talk about the things that matter to you.

[Jormengand]

I know it doesn't fix the problem if you get the answer you expect, but it might be an idea to ask him out? If nothing else, it'll give you closure and quell the "what if"s that comes from not knowing (and sometimes people feel differently with time and circumstances changed).

Also, the quoted part stod out to me. If you have crappy, homophobic friends, it might be time to start branching out a little and go looking for new friends who care enough about you to talk about the things that matter to you.

I would just feel even more terrible about myself if I couldn't kid myself that he still likes me. And I'm absolutely terrible at asking people out. How would I even go about it?

The thing is, they're not homophobic. They're accepting of me, and really nice about it. But they just clam up and make "Uh, well... um, I guess" noises if I start talking about my relationship difficulties. Normally, they'd make a few jokes about how someone's relationship was going, and I get the vibe that they're actually trying hard not to say anything that comes across as homophobic. But anyway, that's not really the issue.

[Philemonite]

There's this guy. Who I like. Yeah. Now, I know you're looking at my gender and going "Ah, there may be a problem here."

I didn't think that, but I know that already.:smallwink:

You basically have three options.
First, wait for it to pass, but I think you have been doing that and it is not working.
Second, keep it to your self, witch is not very healthy.
Third, try to ask him out, or at least get a confirmation that he is not interested. If he says no, you will no that there is no chance, and you can move on. If he says yes, well that's a cause for celebration.

Anyway, my PM box is opened if you need anything.

[Jormengand]

I didn't think that, but I know that already.:smallwink:

You basically have three options.
First, wait for it to pass, but I think you have been doing that and it is not working.
Second, keep it to your self, witch is not very healthy.
Third, try to ask him out, or at least get a confirmation that he is not interested. If he says no, you will no that there is no chance, and you can move on. If he says yes, well that's a cause for celebration.

Anyway, my PM box is opened if you need anything.Hmm.

First, yeah. Been feeling like this for a year and a half, almost.
Second, that's essentially the same thing.
Third, my answer to that still stands.

Thanks. It's good to know that there are still kind people here.

[celtois]

Hey Jormengand:

From the sounds of things you really have two options.
Option 1. Ask him out. Prepare for possible rejection (In which case move to option 2.). Also prepare for possible acceptance :smallwink:
Option 2. Accept that he won't be in a romantic relationship with you, and move on.

Neither option is easy, but those are the only two methods of productively moving forward.

I'm sure that for either option, there is a slew of good advice people here can give you. But fundamentally those are the two option.

[Coidzor]

I would just feel even more terrible about myself if I couldn't kid myself that he still likes me. And I'm absolutely terrible at asking people out. How would I even go about it?

The thing is, they're not homophobic. They're accepting of me, and really nice about it. But they just clam up and make "Uh, well... um, I guess" noises if I start talking about my relationship difficulties. Normally, they'd make a few jokes about how someone's relationship was going, and I get the vibe that they're actually trying hard not to say anything that comes across as homophobic. But anyway, that's not really the issue.

On the other hand, it'd help get you out of limbo even if that's actually how you would feel in the immediate short term.

Usually, "I'm interested in you and would like to pursue a romantic relationship, would you like to discuss this with me over coffee/tea/smoothies?" Though I'm sure others can supply something more witty.

Well that certainly sounds like *a* form of homophobia even if it's less violent and confrontational than traditional forms. Granted, if they're just scared of putting their feet in their mouths, you should be able to reassure them a bit if they're actually comfortable with you.


First, wait for it to pass, but I think you have been doing that and it is not working.

Since just waiting for it to pass hasn't been doing anything, I'd say that it's transmuted into go looking further afield for someone else to be interested in.


Also, the quoted part stood out to me. If you have crappy, homophobic friends, it might be time to start branching out a little and go looking for new friends who care enough about you to talk about the things that matter to you.

And meeting new people means you might run into eligible bachelors along the way. :smallamused:


I just...ugh. A relationship is practically all I want at this point. I'm so desperate for one. But it is impossible for me to get one.

I've never been in a relationship before. I've only ever been rejected. On two occasions, my desperation was distinctly interpreted and used so that I could be a sort of emotional crutch for the women in those cases, but that is all.

Nothing is impossible, but desperation will definitely be working against you here.

That's unfortunate that you became interested in women who would misuse you in such a way and that you were so misused. That does, however, bring up the very good point that even if you want to actively pursue finding a partner, desperation is the enemy and striking a balance outside of desperation is key.

I'm trying to remember the site, but it's been linked in the thread's history a few times, a geek/introvert site discussing love and dating... I recall it had a fairly good article about how to get back into balance when coming from a place of desperation.

I recall that one strategy is to actively cut off dating and put it on hold so that one isn't putting one's attention there until one has improved one's life in other areas so that one has a better platform and better relationship with one's self to come from in approaching dating and love.


I'm 20, which is young still, but as more time goes on people want to be with someone with experience.

Like, would you get with someone who has the same amount of dating experience as an early high schooler? Those relationships tend to fall apart immediately. I don't expect that to happen to me, but it is a stigma that comes with inexperience, and it only gets harder as I get older.

Up to a certain point, sure, but at your age it's mostly imaginary except amongst a subset of the population that you likely will not really be interacting with or desiring to date, and then it stops being as big of a deal again until it starts to become more anomalous again, but, really, if someone is actually interested in you, it's not going to be a barrier barring them being really neurotic.

And you don't need that for a formative relationship experience anyway.

So really, Don't Panic. Plenty of people haven't had a relationship in their early twenties. So it's not the end of the world that you're 20 and never been kissed, as long as you're not making it out to be a big deal, because if you make it a big deal, other people will cue in.


And again, even though I'm young it seems that everyone I know IRL has at least been in a relationship. There's one person in the same situation as me that I know IRL and he acts practically asexual and isn't looking for anyone. I'm pretty sure if he were he'd succeed. Meanwhile, I've only ever failed.

This adds up, on top of other forms of rejection in my life (including my parents) and leads me to feel unlovable and forever alone. I don't feel like anyone would ever want to date me. I feel abhorrent, but I can't identify what about me is, other than physical appearance and the desperation itself.

Meet new people then. Examine what's been going on when you've failed. Have you been pursuing people you're completely incompatible with because of their looks? Have you been sabotaging yourself in some way? Do you just need to sell yourself better? Or is it more that you need to change up where you're meeting people?

While their lives are, in general, harder for it, victims of child abuse and orphans can and do find love. As much as it sucks to have to deal with, especially with the amount of therapy/counseling that can be needed for closure or at least to get started moving on and coming to a better place, it is possible.

I would very much encourage you to investigate your options for help, especially if you're enrolled in university, as they generally have services they offer directly or an arrangement with local practitioners.


I don't believe that.

I don't want a relationship because other people. I want a relationship, can't get one, and other people make me feel like I should be able to but I can't because I'm awful.

And yeah, I am aware of the confidence thing, but I find just having blind faith to be incredibly difficult.

It's sort of like finding an introverted person who mostly keeps to themselves and the friends they already have. Or encountering a geeky girl and recognizing her as such if she's not in the sub-section of the population that is always in your face and out there with it in how she dresses and carries herself and one isn't at a Con. That said, there's always ways we can improve ourselves or work on our defects to make us more attractive and more comfortable in our skin and more in control of our destinies.

Well, that's good that you've determined why you want it. That it's not just peer pressure spurring you on is to your credit. Those people who set out to make you feel that way are not your friends though, and generally should not be listened to. They're best described with terms I cannot use here.

It's not so much blind faith as becoming comfortable with yourself in your own skin to have confidence in yourself. Though it definitely helps to filter out the nay-sayers and voices that want to break you down for their own profit and substitute in uplifting/edifying sources.

[Jormengand]

Usually, "I'm interested in you and would like to pursue a romantic relationship, would you like to discuss this with me over coffee/tea/smoothies?" Though I'm sure others can supply something more witty.Ugh... that just sounds so pretentious. Even if if it's not. I would just feel so weird even saying that.

Sorry, I took ranks in Complain. It scales off your charisma penalty.

[Coidzor]

Ugh... that just sounds so pretentious. Even if if it's not. I would just feel so weird even saying that.

Sorry, I took ranks in Complain. It scales off your charisma penalty.

Well it's no "I like your boobs, go to prom with me?" but hopefully you got the general idea. :smallwink:

Generally you have to know your audience fairly well before you can start reciting lyrics from Closer and have that fly though. :smalltongue:


Yeah, this is my intention. I had had rather a lot to drink last night and wasn't thinking entirely clearly, so it wasn't really a conversation I wanted to get into in that state.

Good luck. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

boobs

You realise we're talking about a guy, right?

[Coidzor]

You realise we're talking about a guy, right?

Yes, it was an example of being crass and rather the opposite of pretentious. And a reference that only a couple of you will probably get.

Substitute ass, chest, hips, bulging biceps, thighs, legs, handsome man-face, or impression of David Bowie in his role in Labyrinth as necessary if you want to actually use it, I suppose. :smalltongue: Don't... Don't actually use it... please...

[Jormengand]

Yes, it was an example of being crass and rather the opposite of pretentious. And a reference that only a couple of you will probably get.

I see. Well, not really, but hey.

Right, well, I'll ask him out (Like, when I actually see him). Seeing as that's what about 4 people are telling me to do. I'll just hold you all personally responsible when he says no. :smallwink:

[Silverrida]

Blind faith=Stupidity, I agree, but the confidence thing is real, and it helped me a lot.

You are not abnormal, you are different, but we are all different (we are all snowflakes and stuff).
You are not unlovable, you just haven't found the right person.

I have an idea that might help. Sit down, take a piece of paper (you can not do this on a computer) and write down all of your qualities and your flaws. Be honest, since this list is just for you. Then, take a good look at it and see witch one would be appealing to an ordinary girl. I think that should help.

I know confidence is real, but it's difficult to just conjure some up for me :(. I feel worthless a lot of the time.

I have no idea what is appealing to an ordinary girl.

My concept of women and what they think is actually extremely weird and ****ed up, and I"m not sure how it happened in all honesty. I am basically afraid all the time of being sexist or misogynistic in the way I carry myself and even my thoughts.


Seriously, I wouldn't worry about this. While the initial dating business can be a bit awkward if you don't know what you're doing, anyone who actually likes you for you won't give a flying fig about your inexperience, especially if you're honest, and people (your partner, your/their friends) are usually happy to help if you do genuinely get "stuck". At least, that's been my experience.

For reference, I was 21 when I began my first relationship (my girlfriend was a year younger than me with several previous bfs) and everything was fine for years.

The other advice I'd give is that people who are desperate for a relationship can often be quite obvious, and don't always appear an attractive prospect as a result - they can come across as needy or a bit sad, even if that's not actually the case. Rather than devote all your energies into trying to acquire "a relationship", I'd try to focus on your current situation and try to enjoy life as a single person, because that'll make you more attractive to potential partners.

Further, remember that relationships are about individuals, not a vague state of affairs. Everyone and every relationship is different. Rather than looking for a relationship with whoever will have you, go looking for someone you want - sometimes such people turn out to have been right in front of you the whole time.

...

I spoke to my housemate and she seemed to take it alright without any real further question or comment (which was what I was most concerned about), although she's now hiding in her room so I hope she's ok. At least it's dealt with now, and hopefully it won't affect the rest of our relationship as friends/housemates.

That's fair enough. I just spend a lot of time googling about these things and several people seem to express an unwillingness to date someone without experience, and it just scares me.

I am both needy and sad, the latter coming with depression in general. I feel like I hide it well, but my therapist says similar, primarily through pre-conscious communication.

The thing is, I don't really like life on my own. I'm building the path. It's there. I have a job, I am now going to a good, private institution starting this year, and I have a plan lain out in front of me. I'm going to get a B.S. in Psychology, go to graduate school, obtain a Ph.D. and get a career I enjoy.

But these things alone do not make me happy. I can often be suicidal, honestly. I don't think a relationship would fix that, nor do I expect it to, but I have a hard time coming off as content in life.

I'm glad she took the news in an okay way. I hope things end favorably.


I was one of the early relationship-getters among my friends (got mine at 15), but my friend group is filled with people who started late. I know two girls who were 20-21 when they got their first boyfriends, another who still doesn't have one at 24, one guy who got his first at 23 (which lasted two months), my youngest brother just got his first at 20, my other brother (22) still hasn't got one. And that's in the "inner circle". Seriously, the romantically well-traveled are the minority among my friends.

It really all depends on the social circles in which you move. 20 doesn't seem late or strange to me at all. In other circles, it would be late, and in some it would even be early. So don't trust your data sample too much.

Also: I know society is pretty insistent that an "S.O. experience" trumphs a "single experience", but while you don't have a relationship, you have an entirely different skillset and experience set. Believe me when I say it's valuable - I'm newly single for the first time since I was 15, and I have NO idea how to handle things due to my lack of experience in that area. I know it's kind of a "grass is greener" thing; I'm just trying to say that there is a lot of value to your situation even though it might not feel like it :smallsmile:

I went to a small high school (Graduating class of 86 people) and everyone around me that I knew of had dated, including the Seniors my Junior year, and the incoming Freshmen my Senior year (That I knew). The friends I have made in college have similar experience.

I know that this data set isn't consistent. I have several online friends in a similar position to me. I just worry about where I come from. It makes me feel weird and unwanted.

To be fair to me, I was in an untenable life situation that has been ongoing until recently, which may have effectively made me unavailable even when I desired otherwise.

And I hope you are right. It seems that we may be handling the same situation similarly despite my experience with it though :(.





Nothing is impossible, but desperation will definitely be working against you here.

That's unfortunate that you became interested in women who would misuse you in such a way and that you were so misused. That does, however, bring up the very good point that even if you want to actively pursue finding a partner, desperation is the enemy and striking a balance outside of desperation is key.

I'm trying to remember the site, but it's been linked in the thread's history a few times, a geek/introvert site discussing love and dating... I recall it had a fairly good article about how to get back into balance when coming from a place of desperation.

I recall that one strategy is to actively cut off dating and put it on hold so that one isn't putting one's attention there until one has improved one's life in other areas so that one has a better platform and better relationship with one's self to come from in approaching dating and love.



Up to a certain point, sure, but at your age it's mostly imaginary except amongst a subset of the population that you likely will not really be interacting with or desiring to date, and then it stops being as big of a deal again until it starts to become more anomalous again, but, really, if someone is actually interested in you, it's not going to be a barrier barring them being really neurotic.

And you don't need that for a formative relationship experience anyway.

So really, Don't Panic. Plenty of people haven't had a relationship in their early twenties. So it's not the end of the world that you're 20 and never been kissed, as long as you're not making it out to be a big deal, because if you make it a big deal, other people will cue in.



Meet new people then. Examine what's been going on when you've failed. Have you been pursuing people you're completely incompatible with because of their looks? Have you been sabotaging yourself in some way? Do you just need to sell yourself better? Or is it more that you need to change up where you're meeting people?

While their lives are, in general, harder for it, victims of child abuse and orphans can and do find love. As much as it sucks to have to deal with, especially with the amount of therapy/counseling that can be needed for closure or at least to get started moving on and coming to a better place, it is possible.

I would very much encourage you to investigate your options for help, especially if you're enrolled in university, as they generally have services they offer directly or an arrangement with local practitioners.



It's sort of like finding an introverted person who mostly keeps to themselves and the friends they already have. Or encountering a geeky girl and recognizing her as such if she's not in the sub-section of the population that is always in your face and out there with it in how she dresses and carries herself and one isn't at a Con. That said, there's always ways we can improve ourselves or work on our defects to make us more attractive and more comfortable in our skin and more in control of our destinies.

Well, that's good that you've determined why you want it. That it's not just peer pressure spurring you on is to your credit. Those people who set out to make you feel that way are not your friends though, and generally should not be listened to. They're best described with terms I cannot use here.

It's not so much blind faith as becoming comfortable with yourself in your own skin to have confidence in yourself. Though it definitely helps to filter out the nay-sayers and voices that want to break you down for their own profit and substitute in uplifting/edifying sources.

Desperation does not help, but I don't know how to quell it. Choosing to ignore the prospect of a relationship doesn't really feel like an option: It's basically the number one thing I want out of life, the other two being a career I enjoy and enough disposable income to keep up friendships properly, both of which I am making noticeable progress toward.

An introvert site may be able to help me. Though ironically I'm not really introverted.

As for the age thing, I just panic because of random googling. Probably seems akin to WebMD from an outside perspective I guess: I just feel like everything is working against me.

Meeting new people will happen in spades ina few months as I am going to be attending a new, private university. I have some hope for my romantic future there honestly.

As for selling myself, that's not something I really do nor do I know how to do it. Especially since I consider myself undesirable.

I have a therapist I see weekly.

Thank you all for your time and care.

[theangelJean]

I see. Well, not really, but hey.

Right, well, I'll ask him out (Like, when I actually see him). Seeing as that's what about 4 people are telling me to do. I'll just hold you all personally responsible when he says no. :smallwink:

I went to "answer" this before I saw the wink at the end, but I'll say it anyway, at the risk of coming across as way too serious:

Yes, it's quite possible he'll say no. It doesn't sound like you really want to take that risk. The thing is, if he does say no, it's not actually the end of the world.

Sure, you might feel like all your feelings have been for nothing. But your feelings aren't doing anything except bothering you right now, right? As for outright rejection, yes, that can be devastating, but I also get the impression that he can't be much harder on you than you already are on yourself. Remember, just because one person doesn't see you as a partner, doesn't actually mean you're a horrible awful person. It just means they don't think you're what they're looking for.

I have to run, so I won't write out my spiel on getting over someone who is out of reach (see end of last thread). But just remember, it might work out well - but if it doesn't, it's not actually the worst thing ever. If it happens, sure, you're entitled to feel sad, I can't tell you that you must feel a certain way. But if you want to move forward, some perspective might help.

[Aedilred]

I have no idea what is appealing to an ordinary girl.
This is probably where you start going wrong. I don't know much about you, obviously, but there are a number of fairly basic errors people make while searching for a partner to do with social skills, hygiene etc.. It might be you're making some of these and just not noticing, or not. Serpentine has a useful checklist which I can't presently find but someone will hopefully link to. While any of these changes that you can make are recommended (in general, not just for relationships) and would definitely make you more attractive... don't start trying to fabricate a personality or life for yourself based on what you think people will find attractive.

You'd be setting yourself up for failure, because anyone who falls for that person isn't falling for you. Eventually either your real self will reveal itself (they might stay with you, but in that case wouldn't it be better to be upfront about who you are?) or you'll live out the rest of the relationship pretending all the time to be someone you're not, which will be both exhausting and miserable.

(Of course, there is often a degree of deception and misdirection involved in the early stages of dating, because you're doing your best to present yourself at your best and hide your negative qualities. But even in that case the person you're presenting is just an optimised version of yourself, not someone different.)




That's fair enough. I just spend a lot of time googling about these things and several people seem to express an unwillingness to date someone without experience, and it just scares me.
Well, those people aren't for you. There are plenty out there who won't be in the least bit fazed, honestly.


I am both needy and sad, the latter coming with depression in general. I feel like I hide it well, but my therapist says similar, primarily through pre-conscious communication.

The thing is, I don't really like life on my own. I'm building the path. It's there. I have a job, I am now going to a good, private institution starting this year, and I have a plan lain out in front of me. I'm going to get a B.S. in Psychology, go to graduate school, obtain a Ph.D. and get a career I enjoy.

But these things alone do not make me happy. I can often be suicidal, honestly. I don't think a relationship would fix that, nor do I expect it to, but I have a hard time coming off as content in life...

...Desperation does not help, but I don't know how to quell it. Choosing to ignore the prospect of a relationship doesn't really feel like an option: It's basically the number one thing I want out of life, the other two being a career I enjoy and enough disposable income to keep up friendships properly, both of which I am making noticeable progress toward.
Even if you are needy, the trick is to do your best not to appear as such. Nobody enters a relationship thrilled at the prospect of fixing up someone else's life (well, some people do, but that's a different kettle of fish), so if that's the image you present, people are going to steer clear.

I'm a little concerned with some of the things you say, because while you're not enjoying single life you also don't have anything to compare it to, and you admit that you don't think a relationship would actually fix things. If you're depressed, having a relationship probably isn't going to make that go away (although a supportive relationship can work wonders for mental health). You are coming at the situation from a rather negative angle.

It sounds like you have a reasonable idea of what you're going to do in the future, and that's good (uncertainty about the future tends to be quite destructive) but perhaps you need to find other things in your life to give you a bit more pleasure and enjoyment: hobbies, sports, societies or what have you. These give you a reason to get out of bed in the morning, introduce you to new people, and are fun on their own - just find something, anything, that you're interested in. That also makes you much more romantically marketable. Maybe you already have some of these things, I don't know.


I'm glad she took the news in an okay way. I hope things end favorably.
Thanks :smallsmile:

[rogueboy]

I know confidence is real, but it's difficult to just conjure some up for me :(. I feel worthless a lot of the time.

You may not want to hear this, but: find some hobbies. And you mentioned depression, keep working on that. You need to be in a positive place before a relationship will have a chance.

I'm working on that myself. I just moved across the country, and am currently unemployed. While I *want* to be working on a relationship, I'm not feeling good enough about myself without a job to actually work on that. Hence, working on the problem rather than the relationship side of things (note: I'm currently 25, and without a relationship history, so you're not alone).


I have no idea what is appealing to an ordinary girl.

My concept of women and what they think is actually extremely weird and ****ed up, and I"m not sure how it happened in all honesty. I am basically afraid all the time of being sexist or misogynistic in the way I carry myself and even my thoughts.

This is also a problem. Not an insurmountable one, of course, but you need to see if you can figure out a way to get a more accurate/balanced view of women. Then you can try to have some female friends, which will help you get a more direct idea of what is appealing to an "ordinary" girl. In quotes because no two are the same, but you'll have an idea from someone who you actually like to be with, rather than the opinion of "that random girl over there."


That's fair enough. I just spend a lot of time googling about these things and several people seem to express an unwillingness to date someone without experience, and it just scares me.

The google is good for facts. Less good for opinions.


I am both needy and sad, the latter coming with depression in general. I feel like I hide it well, but my therapist says similar, primarily through pre-conscious communication.

See above about depression and getting into a better position for yourself.


The thing is, I don't really like life on my own. I'm building the path. It's there. I have a job, I am now going to a good, private institution starting this year, and I have a plan lain out in front of me. I'm going to get a B.S. in Psychology, go to graduate school, obtain a Ph.D. and get a career I enjoy.

But these things alone do not make me happy. I can often be suicidal, honestly. I don't think a relationship would fix that, nor do I expect it to, but I have a hard time coming off as content in life.

I wouldn't expect that having a plan is enough to make you happy. You need to have other things to keep you entertained while you're working towards your goal.

Side note PSA: Remember to reevaluate your goals and plans from time to time, and figure out what makes the most sense for where you want to end up. I went from the end of my freshman year of college until the end of year 2 of grad school (5 years) without questioning that I wanted to get a PhD and work in biotech. I have since (last 12 months, really) gone from wanting a PhD to wanting a MS to do the job I wanted, to actually questioning what I wanted, and leaving the program entirely. Not saying you'll take the same route, just think about your plans from time to time.

And Serpentine’s Brutally Honest Guide to Self Image that Aedilred mentioned is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3566241&postcount=483). Hurray for lots of questions to ask yourself!

[The Succubus]

Substitute ass, chest, hips, bulging biceps, thighs, legs, handsome man-face, or impression of David Bowie in his role in Labyrinth as necessary if you want to actually use it, I suppose. :smalltongue: Don't... Don't actually use it... please...

Jareth in Labyrith was frigging *hot*. :smallredface: They'd be lying through their teeth but I'd be incredibly flattered if someone used that to compliment me. Those deep smouldering eyes...<3

[Philemonite]

Sorry, I took ranks in Complain. It scales off your charisma penalty.

Can I steal this?

[Jormengand]

Can I steal this?

As in sig it? Sure. As in use it as your own? I'd rather you didn't.

[Philemonite]

As in sig it? Sure. As in use it as your own? I'd rather you didn't.

Jut for sig, I don't take credit for other people's work.:smalltongue:

[Jormengand]

Jut for sig, I don't take credit for other people's work.:smalltongue:

You should probably underline penalty, because in quote boxes everything is italic.

[Castaras]

I have no idea what is appealing to an ordinary girl.

What's appealing to people in general? General hygiene, vague attractiveness, someone interesting to talk to. The former is easy to deal with. The middle is often subjective, though you can look into making sure you're wearing clothing that flatters you, and have a haircut that suits your shape of face, and the ability to at least fake confidence in yourself.

The latter, it all depends on the person. Thus we get to the other point I was going to make - there is no such thing as an ordinary girl. No such thing as an ordinary person. The general three points of "Hygiene, attractiveness, interesting" mean different things to every person. Some girls are interested in a guy who can talk about their favourite sports. Others like to have a guy who can make intelligent suggestions regarding their current scientific research. Some just want a guy who can nod and go "yes, yes, terracotta" while they babble on about something or other.

Could continue, but my point is made (hopefully). Concentrate on yourself. Make sure you're clean, smell nice, look your best, and practise confidence. Make sure that you have things to talk about with regards yourself - even if it's just "I really like this computer game" or "This TV show is cool".

[Arcanist]

I'd actually forgotten that I commented my feelings about a girl here... I'd like to report that she is the kind of girl that uses the term date for any social gathering between two people (which my housemate couldn't actually take a hint on so it became a little crowded).

To make matters worse she went through my collection of dvds and found something I had long since thought was destroyed... She found my dvd copy of The Room... We laughed and laughed and questioned the plot and eventually came to the consensus that:

1) My housemate is a prick (She finds him entertaining).
2) And that if given the chance we would sooner lobotimize ourselves than watch that movie again. So she took it and presumably destroyed it.

That was my entire date with a girl that I liked and although I am a little frustrated and angry that it didn't turn out the way I wanted it too... Nope, yeah I'm still angry. Just venting my rage on the internet instead of letting it fester inside of me into a mental illness :smallsigh:

[Chen]

I'd actually forgotten that I commented my feelings about a girl here... I'd like to report that she is the kind of girl that uses the term date for any social gathering between two people (which my housemate couldn't actually take a hint on so it became a little crowded).

To make matters worse she went through my collection of dvds and found something I had long since thought was destroyed... She found my dvd copy of The Room... We laughed and laughed and questioned the plot and eventually came to the consensus that:

1) My housemate is a prick (She finds him entertaining).
2) And that if given the chance we would sooner lobotimize ourselves than watch that movie again. So she took it and presumably destroyed it.

That was my entire date with a girl that I liked and although I am a little frustrated and angry that it didn't turn out the way I wanted it too... Nope, yeah I'm still angry. Just venting my rage on the internet instead of letting it fester inside of me into a mental illness :smallsigh:

Take it upon yourself to ask her out then next time. Make it clear you're NOT just looking for friendship but rather a relationship (you can add romantic to that but it makes it sound a tad cheesy and the point will probably be made without it).

[Coidzor]

I'd actually forgotten that I commented my feelings about a girl here... I'd like to report that she is the kind of girl that uses the term date for any social gathering between two people (which my housemate couldn't actually take a hint on so it became a little crowded).

What, you knew about it before hand but didn't tell your housemate to clear out? :smallconfused: You don't use hints, you straight up tell your housemates/roommates the situation and then negotiate from there.

So... which person asked who out on a date?


That was my entire date with a girl that I liked and although I am a little frustrated and angry that it didn't turn out the way I wanted it too... Nope, yeah I'm still angry. Just venting my rage on the internet instead of letting it fester inside of me into a mental illness :smallsigh:

Clear communication is key, yeah. Presumably there's some way to at least try to salvage this with clarification, though, I must admit, anyone who is... naive enough to think that being asked out on a date by someone of the opposite sex is something innocent is a mental quantity that I have no hope of attempting to understand.


Jareth in Labyrith was frigging *hot*. :smallredface: They'd be lying through their teeth but I'd be incredibly flattered if someone used that to compliment me. Those deep smouldering eyes...<3

:smallamused:

[Arcanist]

What, you knew about it before hand but didn't tell your housemate to clear out? :smallconfused: You don't use hints, you straight up tell your housemates/roommates the situation and then negotiate from there.

I told him, but he refused to actually leave. I could have yelled at him to leave, but it would have been rude to her since she actually found the S.O.B. funny so I couldn't very well just tell him to gtfo (despite prior information that we would be together that day and would like to be alone SO he knew that she would be visiting.).


So... which person asked who out on a date?

She asked me the first time and I asked her out again; Ain't no way in HELL I'm stopping now.


Clear communication is key, yeah. Presumably there's some way to at least try to salvage this with clarification, though, I must admit, anyone who is... naive enough to think that being asked out on a date by someone of the opposite sex is something innocent is a mental quantity that I have no hope of attempting to understand.

I believe I made my intentions quite clear and she agreed to meet up sometime during the week without the a 3rd party. Huzzah :smallamused:

[Chessgeek]

I've been lurking for a while, figured I'd give it a go. It's a minor woe, especially compared to what precedes it in this thread, but...

Okay, so to lead off, I'm in high school. I went on a few dates with a girl in the grade above me from September to around April. There was little chemistry, eventually stagnating to the point where I couldn't think of anything interesting to talk about at all. I finally accepted that I was only in the relationship because I didn't want to be alone, we broke it off on decent terms, end of story.

Until recently she told me she still has feelings for me, and I'm not really sure what the best plan of action would be here. On the one hand, nothing has changed: I'm still not attracted to her, although I still don't want to be alone. But on the other hand... I feel bad about how I behaved during our brief relationship. I would cancel at the last minute to get out of having awkward conversations, eventually just isolating myself from the world so I wouldn't be confronted about it. Not to mention we're both involved in the school's color guard, so we'd be seeing each other ALL THE TIME.

I know a fake relationship isn't a good way to apologize for a poor one, but I can't think of any way to stop feeling guilty about it all.


Any advice on what to do and/or how to do it would be appreciated.

@Arcanist: Having a 3rd wheel on a date is incredibly annoying, but it does take some of the pressure off. Congrats on finding a way around your housemate though.

[Silverrida]

This is probably where you start going wrong. I don't know much about you, obviously, but there are a number of fairly basic errors people make while searching for a partner to do with social skills, hygiene etc.. It might be you're making some of these and just not noticing, or not. Serpentine has a useful checklist which I can't presently find but someone will hopefully link to. While any of these changes that you can make are recommended (in general, not just for relationships) and would definitely make you more attractive... don't start trying to fabricate a personality or life for yourself based on what you think people will find attractive.

You'd be setting yourself up for failure, because anyone who falls for that person isn't falling for you. Eventually either your real self will reveal itself (they might stay with you, but in that case wouldn't it be better to be upfront about who you are?) or you'll live out the rest of the relationship pretending all the time to be someone you're not, which will be both exhausting and miserable.

(Of course, there is often a degree of deception and misdirection involved in the early stages of dating, because you're doing your best to present yourself at your best and hide your negative qualities. But even in that case the person you're presenting is just an optimised version of yourself, not someone different.)




Well, those people aren't for you. There are plenty out there who won't be in the least bit fazed, honestly.


Even if you are needy, the trick is to do your best not to appear as such. Nobody enters a relationship thrilled at the prospect of fixing up someone else's life (well, some people do, but that's a different kettle of fish), so if that's the image you present, people are going to steer clear.

I'm a little concerned with some of the things you say, because while you're not enjoying single life you also don't have anything to compare it to, and you admit that you don't think a relationship would actually fix things. If you're depressed, having a relationship probably isn't going to make that go away (although a supportive relationship can work wonders for mental health). You are coming at the situation from a rather negative angle.

It sounds like you have a reasonable idea of what you're going to do in the future, and that's good (uncertainty about the future tends to be quite destructive) but perhaps you need to find other things in your life to give you a bit more pleasure and enjoyment: hobbies, sports, societies or what have you. These give you a reason to get out of bed in the morning, introduce you to new people, and are fun on their own - just find something, anything, that you're interested in. That also makes you much more romantically marketable. Maybe you already have some of these things, I don't know.


Thanks :smallsmile:

I'm surprised how often hygeine came up in responses. I wasn't aware it was that big an issue. After following that thread, I tend to do most of the hygiene related things in it. I shower normally once a day, usually before work or going out with friends, I always brush my teeth in the morning and after a shower, I wear deodorant before going out, I regularly wash my clothes, I do the best I can with my teeth and hair, etc.

I don't really work on acne with my acne products, but I don't get it particularly bad.

As for the deception bit, I am bad at that. In my past, when I show people the "best" of who I am and later show them the worse parts, they run and hide. I need to show just who I am up front so I don't get attached and abandoned like what is prone to be done to me.

I hope you are right about the experience thing.

I don't equivalate needy and broken life. Ironically, I feel like I HAVE fixed up my life quite a bit considering what I was given. Having a job, going to college, and having a social life seem three solid things, and working from those I get good grades, get decent hours, and have a large social circle. My life itself doesn't need fixing up.

My mind, on the other hand, needs serious work. But I wouldn't expect an SO to be able to fix it.

I feel like I'm coming at the situation at a realistic angle. What alternative angle is there to the one I suggested?

I don't particularly have social hobbies and am bad at starting ones that allow me to meet new people. All of my hobbies and interests are more individually based. Speedrunning, video games, MLP: FiM and Homestuck, music, poetry. IDK how to expand on these.


You may not want to hear this, but: find some hobbies. And you mentioned depression, keep working on that. You need to be in a positive place before a relationship will have a chance.

I'm working on that myself. I just moved across the country, and am currently unemployed. While I *want* to be working on a relationship, I'm not feeling good enough about myself without a job to actually work on that. Hence, working on the problem rather than the relationship side of things (note: I'm currently 25, and without a relationship history, so you're not alone).



This is also a problem. Not an insurmountable one, of course, but you need to see if you can figure out a way to get a more accurate/balanced view of women. Then you can try to have some female friends, which will help you get a more direct idea of what is appealing to an "ordinary" girl. In quotes because no two are the same, but you'll have an idea from someone who you actually like to be with, rather than the opinion of "that random girl over there."



The google is good for facts. Less good for opinions.



See above about depression and getting into a better position for yourself.



I wouldn't expect that having a plan is enough to make you happy. You need to have other things to keep you entertained while you're working towards your goal.

Side note PSA: Remember to reevaluate your goals and plans from time to time, and figure out what makes the most sense for where you want to end up. I went from the end of my freshman year of college until the end of year 2 of grad school (5 years) without questioning that I wanted to get a PhD and work in biotech. I have since (last 12 months, really) gone from wanting a PhD to wanting a MS to do the job I wanted, to actually questioning what I wanted, and leaving the program entirely. Not saying you'll take the same route, just think about your plans from time to time.

And Serpentine’s Brutally Honest Guide to Self Image that Aedilred mentioned is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3566241&postcount=483). Hurray for lots of questions to ask yourself!

I feel I have some hobbies, just not good ones? It's hard to get hobbies when you have a lack of interest in existing a decent amount of the time. I am doing my best with the depression. Unless people have suggestions for me to follow. The biggest struggle is working out. I loathe it, and do it inconsistently, but I'm trying.

It's good to know I"m not alone, fortunately. It makes me feel like not as much a lost cause.

My view of women is incredibly FUBAR when it comes to relationships. Ironically, it's in the opposite direction of misogynistic. I fear that everything i think and do and desire is sexist and I hate myself for all of it. I have no idea how women interact outside of friendship. I have some friends who are female, and we get along fine, but relationship prospects are a mystery to me.

Again, with concerning staying entertained, I find it awesome when I desire to live on certain days. Like, when my sadness of not having a relationship and feeling (being) unlovable aren't ruining my entire time, it is incredibly auspicious. It's hard to get past this state.


What's appealing to people in general? General hygiene, vague attractiveness, someone interesting to talk to. The former is easy to deal with. The middle is often subjective, though you can look into making sure you're wearing clothing that flatters you, and have a haircut that suits your shape of face, and the ability to at least fake confidence in yourself.

The latter, it all depends on the person. Thus we get to the other point I was going to make - there is no such thing as an ordinary girl. No such thing as an ordinary person. The general three points of "Hygiene, attractiveness, interesting" mean different things to every person. Some girls are interested in a guy who can talk about their favourite sports. Others like to have a guy who can make intelligent suggestions regarding their current scientific research. Some just want a guy who can nod and go "yes, yes, terracotta" while they babble on about something or other.

Could continue, but my point is made (hopefully). Concentrate on yourself. Make sure you're clean, smell nice, look your best, and practise confidence. Make sure that you have things to talk about with regards yourself - even if it's just "I really like this computer game" or "This TV show is cool".

Vague attractiveness is where I feel I lose. Always. I feel like one of the least attractive people I know.

I feel I can be interesting, fortunately? I am told recently that I am funny, which is cool because people struggle with that. I like it being confirmed in an unbiased manner.

I don't know how to practice confidence, and "looking my best" is still incredibly unattractive.

[Astrella]

I've been lurking for a while, figured I'd give it a go. It's a minor woe, especially compared to what precedes it in this thread, but...

Okay, so to lead off, I'm in high school. I went on a few dates with a girl in the grade above me from September to around April. There was little chemistry, eventually stagnating to the point where I couldn't think of anything interesting to talk about at all. I finally accepted that I was only in the relationship because I didn't want to be alone, we broke it off on decent terms, end of story.

Until recently she told me she still has feelings for me, and I'm not really sure what the best plan of action would be here. On the one hand, nothing has changed: I'm still not attracted to her, although I still don't want to be alone. But on the other hand... I feel bad about how I behaved during our brief relationship. I would cancel at the last minute to get out of having awkward conversations, eventually just isolating myself from the world so I wouldn't be confronted about it. Not to mention we're both involved in the school's color guard, so we'd be seeing each other ALL THE TIME.

I know a fake relationship isn't a good way to apologize for a poor one, but I can't think of any way to stop feeling guilty about it all.


Any advice on what to do and/or how to do it would be appreciated.

@Arcanist: Having a 3rd wheel on a date is incredibly annoying, but it does take some of the pressure off. Congrats on finding a way around your housemate though.

Don't enter a relationship you don't want to be in, that isn't fair to her or to you. And if you feel guilty about your behaviour about the last time you dated maybe consider apologizing for it? I think that's a better idea than revisiting your relationship when you don't really want to be in a relationship with her specifically.

[Coidzor]

I've been lurking for a while, figured I'd give it a go. It's a minor woe, especially compared to what precedes it in this thread, but...

Okay, so to lead off, I'm in high school. I went on a few dates with a girl in the grade above me from September to around April. There was little chemistry, eventually stagnating to the point where I couldn't think of anything interesting to talk about at all. I finally accepted that I was only in the relationship because I didn't want to be alone, we broke it off on decent terms, end of story.

Until recently she told me she still has feelings for me, and I'm not really sure what the best plan of action would be here. On the one hand, nothing has changed: I'm still not attracted to her, although I still don't want to be alone. But on the other hand... I feel bad about how I behaved during our brief relationship. I would cancel at the last minute to get out of having awkward conversations, eventually just isolating myself from the world so I wouldn't be confronted about it. Not to mention we're both involved in the school's color guard, so we'd be seeing each other ALL THE TIME.

I know a fake relationship isn't a good way to apologize for a poor one, but I can't think of any way to stop feeling guilty about it all.


Any advice on what to do and/or how to do it would be appreciated.

Telling her the truth seems like the thing to do in this situation. You're just not that into her.

Running from it then just made you miserable and non-functional, why continue to deny it?

[rogueboy]

I don't particularly have social hobbies and am bad at starting ones that allow me to meet new people. All of my hobbies and interests are more individually based. Speedrunning, video games, MLP: FiM and Homestuck, music, poetry. IDK how to expand on these.

I'm going to be making a few assumptions here, so feel free to correct me if I'm making a false assumption. From one of your earlier posts, I take it you're in college, which means various clubs on campus, which should be free to participate in. And given the 2 colleges I've spend time at (one mid-size, one large), there should be a large number of clubs around to choose from. The goal here is to participate in things you already enjoy, but in a social setting (very few things can't be done with other people).

Video games and speedrunning - I'd guess there's a video game club (or 6) of some sort. Some may be devoted to a particular game or type of game, but you can probably find a group that plays video games that you enjoy, even if it's narrower than your typical selection.

MLP and Homestuck - watching TV and reading webcomics aren't exactly what I would call hobbies. On the other hand, there are likely clubs for at least one of these that you can check out and try. MLP is rather popular, from what I've seen/heard the last few years.

Music and poetry - these are easy. Depending on the type of music you like, you can go to concerts or join a band (off the top of my head; check out a club list for more ideas). Poetry readings are an option, which may or may not be run by a poetry club.

Start with those, and you may get ideas from people you meet in the clubs, or you may see something that looks interesting when you look at the list of clubs that exist.

Side note: don't go into these clubs expecting (or even hoping, really) to find a SO - your goal is socializing and improving your self-image. Going in with an expectation of finding a SO may make people uncomfortable around you, which defeats the entire purpose.

[Jormengand]

Ugh. Was going to ask guy out. Didn't get opportunity. Felt stupid. Drank, fortunately in moderation. Felt more stupid.

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!

[Philemonite]

Ugh. Was going to ask guy out. Didn't get opportunity. Felt stupid. Drank, fortunately in moderation. Felt more stupid.

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!

There's always tomorrow.

[Coidzor]

There's always tomorrow.

Indeed, beating yourself up about it now is just going to drain your energy that you'll need for tomorrow.

[Jormengand]

Indeed, beating yourself up about it now is just going to drain your energy that you'll need for tomorrow.

If I even see him tomorrow. Urgh.

[Coidzor]

If I even see him tomorrow. Urgh.

Well, call him up or shoot him a text, ask him to rendezvous with you real quick tomorrow when you're both free if you're that worried.

[Chessgeek]

@Astrella: I've apologized enough to fill a small novel. I still feel guilty about it. But thank you, and thank you to Coidzor as well.

[Coidzor]

@Astrella: I've apologized enough to fill a small novel. I still feel guilty about it. But thank you, and thank you to Coidzor as well.

At some point you've done all you can towards the other party and have to examine why it is that you're continuing to be your own accuser.

You can't turn back time, but you can, and really should, move forward. So if this presents an obstacle to doing so when you try, then you might need to examine why you're holding it against yourself.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Good seeing you around, Silverrida.

Anyway... I have a more, let's say, intimate issue. Not sure I'm actually comfortable posting it, but I have one and help. Please.

[Philemonite]

Good seeing you around, Silverrida.

Anyway... I have a more, let's say, intimate issue. Not sure I'm actually comfortable posting it, but I have one and help. Please.

You can PM me, I will try to help.

[Serpentine]

I'm open to PMs, too.

[Glass Mouse]

Me, too. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

Well, call him up or shoot him a text, ask him to rendezvous with you real quick tomorrow when you're both free if you're that worried.

That would be possible... if I had his number. Which I don't.

[Philemonite]

So, there is this guy I met a few months ago. We kinda lost contact (he thought I wasn't interested, I thought he wasn't interested.). We started corresponding a few weeks ago, and it was going well. We decided to meet a week ago, and we had fun. The thing is, the day after we met I started to feel a little strange. I wasn't depressed, but I wasn't really happy. I like this guy, and we have a lot of things in common. I just feel that something is missing.

This is where my ex comes in. We broke up about 4 months ago. There was a lot of drama, and we agreed to be friends. Since he is working in another country (but right at the border, so we are still relatively close) we are using a dating site for communication (the same one we used when we met). I wasn't online for a few days, and when I got back he asked me what happened, and it seamed like he was worried about me. I told him I just wasn't online. The thing is our brackup was a mess. And he told me before we started to date if we brackup that is it, never again. Now, we started talking about last summer, when we were camping together. We have been flirting and stuff, so I am so confused. I know he still has feelings for me, but I am 99% sure he will never act on it. On the other hand we are friends now, and I don't want to ruin that.

I don't really know what I'm asking, but any advice will be appreciated.

[Glass Mouse]

So, there is this guy I met a few months ago. We kinda lost contact (he thought I wasn't interested, I thought he wasn't interested.). We started corresponding a few weeks ago, and it was going well. We decided to meet a week ago, and we had fun. The thing is, the day after we met I started to feel a little strange. I wasn't depressed, but I wasn't really happy. I like this guy, and we have a lot of things in common. I just feel that something is missing.

This is where my ex comes in. We broke up about 4 months ago. There was a lot of drama, and we agreed to be friends. Since he is working in another country (but right at the border, so we are still relatively close) we are using a dating site for communication (the same one we used when we met). I wasn't online for a few days, and when I got back he asked me what happened, and it seamed like he was worried about me. I told him I just wasn't online. The thing is our brackup was a mess. And he told me before we started to date if we brackup that is it, never again. Now, we started talking about last summer, when we were camping together. We have been flirting and stuff, so I am so confused. I know he still has feelings for me, but I am 99% sure he will never act on it. On the other hand we are friends now, and I don't want to ruin that.

I don't really know what I'm asking, but any advice will be appreciated.

Regarding Guy #1. It's okay to not be sure, as long as you see the potential for something developing. Just be clear about your feelings and emotions, if you continue dating.
It's also totally okay to stop dating someone because "something is missing". You don't need some grand reason. Or, rather, "I don't feel it" IS all the reason you need. If that's the case, just apologize, thank him for the good times, and move on. I don't know if you're inclined to do such, but you really shouldn't try to convince yourself in either direction before you're ready.
Gotta say, to me, kinda-depression the day after meeting a date is a bad sign, and one I would take seriously. But only you can know that.

Regarding Guy #2. This is a slightly more complicated situation. But there are some important questions here: 1) Do YOU want to get back together? If yes, is he worth the potential drama? Ultimately, it doesn't matter what he wants, because you can't know nor control that. You can only act on your own emotions. If they tell you "yes!", try to go for it, and if they tell you "no go!", problem solved. Except possibly; 2) Does the flirting make you uncomfortable, or do you enjoy it? You can keep flirting if you enjoy it and are emotionally put-together enough to separate flirting from love declarations (some people incorporate flirting into their everyday interactions). But if it confuses the heck out of you, you might have to talk to the guy. If he's your friend, you should be able to have that conversation about, "listen, I'm feeling a bit confused about where we stand - I understand the situation such and such, is that correct?", or if necessary, "hey, cut that out, it's frustrating!"
Just remember to stop speculating about his emotions and motives. You can do that, and it's hard to stop entirely, but it's only helpful once you're sure of your own stance.

You had no clear questions, so this is also kinda meandering. But I hope it can inspire some new thoughts or something. Good luck :smallsmile:

[Philemonite]

Regarding Guy #1. It's okay to not be sure, as long as you see the potential for something developing. Just be clear about your feelings and emotions, if you continue dating.
It's also totally okay to stop dating someone because "something is missing". You don't need some grand reason. Or, rather, "I don't feel it" IS all the reason you need. If that's the case, just apologize, thank him for the good times, and move on. I don't know if you're inclined to do such, but you really shouldn't try to convince yourself in either direction before you're ready.
Gotta say, to me, kinda-depression the day after meeting a date is a bad sign, and one I would take seriously. But only you can know that.

There is definitely potential here.:smallbiggrin:
It's not really depression, and it was probably caused by my dad(and that's a whole other story).


Regarding Guy #2. This is a slightly more complicated situation. But there are some important questions here: 1) Do YOU want to get back together? If yes, is he worth the potential drama? Ultimately, it doesn't matter what he wants, because you can't know nor control that. You can only act on your own emotions. If they tell you "yes!", try to go for it, and if they tell you "no go!", problem solved. Except possibly; 2) Does the flirting make you uncomfortable, or do you enjoy it? You can keep flirting if you enjoy it and are emotionally put-together enough to separate flirting from love declarations (some people incorporate flirting into their everyday interactions). But if it confuses the heck out of you, you might have to talk to the guy. If he's your friend, you should be able to have that conversation about, "listen, I'm feeling a bit confused about where we stand - I understand the situation such and such, is that correct?", or if necessary, "hey, cut that out, it's frustrating!"
Just remember to stop speculating about his emotions and motives. You can do that, and it's hard to stop entirely, but it's only helpful once you're sure of your own stance.

You had no clear questions, so this is also kinda meandering. But I hope it can inspire some new thoughts or something. Good luck :smallsmile:

1) I would get back with him, but I think that door is closed (actually triple locked), so that is not an option.
2) I enjoy the flirting, the problem is it reminds me of our time together, and that gets me depressed. He's the only guy I have ever really loved, and I made a mess out of it.

I'm probably just venting, but it helps to hear what other people think.

[Lentrax]

Betrayal by ice cream.



That is all.

[Jormengand]

Betrayal by ice cream.



That is all.

Do what with the what now?

[Coidzor]

Do what with the what now?

I mean, it automatically kind of betrays me by going straight to my thighs.

[Lentrax]

See, here's the thing.


Everytime it is suggested we get ice cream, I have to be in bed in ten minutes.

And by we, I mean the wife says, "I want ice cream." I always say yes, and then ask to please ask me before two thirty, because there is a second person I this house who wants so e Dairy Queen. A second person who has not a frozen treat since he first came home from Afghanistan five years ago. A second person who is willing to brave another desolate wasteland to get himself a mother effin' Oreo Blizzard.

But can't because he is not thought of until he points it said facts.

Again.

Twice a week.

For three weeks.

If I didn't have to watch over the three kids while the wife napped, it would t be a big deal. But I do., and my son has autism, which just complicates things even more.

My wife is betraying me with ice cream.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Jormengand]

See, here's the thing.


Everytime it is suggested we get ice cream, I have to be in bed in ten minutes.

And by we, I mean the wife says, "I want ice cream." I always say yes, and then ask to please ask me before two thirty, because there is a second person I this house who wants so e Dairy Queen. A second person who has not a frozen treat since he first came home from Afghanistan five years ago. A second person who is willing to brave another desolate wasteland to get himself a mother effin' Oreo Blizzard.

But can't because he is not thought of until he points it said facts.

Again.

Twice a week.

For three weeks.

If I didn't have to watch over the three kids while the wife napped, it would t be a big deal. But I do., and my son has autism, which just complicates things even more.

My wife is betraying me with ice cream.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay......... .....

[Blaknic]

Lentrax, I am not sure I understand what you are telling us.
Every time your wife tells you that she wants ice cream, you go to DQ and get some.
But somebody else (yourself, I am guessing) also wants ice cream, but forget to pick some up?

Maybe next time you go to the grocery store, pick up a gallon of ice cream. Twice a week sounds like a lot of ice cream, this would be more economical.

Or if this occurs at night, maybe you put the kids to bed or put the oldest in charge, and take your wife to get the ice cream together! That way, she could realize the inconvenience she is putting on you, and you could make it a date.

[Silverrida]

Why the **** do guys who act like women are objects get relationships and one night stands? Why can people so easily say "which one do you want?" in reference to women and still get relationships? Why do people get to be so vulgar and overly sexual and exude misogynistic tendencies and still get relationships, regardless of whether or not that's how they are deep down?


I'm going to be making a few assumptions here, so feel free to correct me if I'm making a false assumption. From one of your earlier posts, I take it you're in college, which means various clubs on campus, which should be free to participate in. And given the 2 colleges I've spend time at (one mid-size, one large), there should be a large number of clubs around to choose from. The goal here is to participate in things you already enjoy, but in a social setting (very few things can't be done with other people).

Video games and speedrunning - I'd guess there's a video game club (or 6) of some sort. Some may be devoted to a particular game or type of game, but you can probably find a group that plays video games that you enjoy, even if it's narrower than your typical selection.

MLP and Homestuck - watching TV and reading webcomics aren't exactly what I would call hobbies. On the other hand, there are likely clubs for at least one of these that you can check out and try. MLP is rather popular, from what I've seen/heard the last few years.

Music and poetry - these are easy. Depending on the type of music you like, you can go to concerts or join a band (off the top of my head; check out a club list for more ideas). Poetry readings are an option, which may or may not be run by a poetry club.

Start with those, and you may get ideas from people you meet in the clubs, or you may see something that looks interesting when you look at the list of clubs that exist.

Side note: don't go into these clubs expecting (or even hoping, really) to find a SO - your goal is socializing and improving your self-image. Going in with an expectation of finding a SO may make people uncomfortable around you, which defeats the entire purpose.

I'm not on campus at the moment. I'm a few months away before I get to go to campus. But I agree that it seems the best bet for me.

I do plan on joining clubs when I get there, though.

And it's difficult not to go places hoping for an SO. It doesn't really turn off.

[ArlEammon]

I feel like crap crap crap crappity crap crap.

PM? :(

[Jallorn]

Why the **** do guys who act like women are objects get relationships and one night stands? Why can people so easily say "which one do you want?" in reference to women and still get relationships? Why do people get to be so vulgar and overly sexual and exude misogynistic tendencies and still get relationships, regardless of whether or not that's how they are deep down?

Hoo boy, that's an old question. Still valid, but...

Near as I can tell, it's a combination of factors made up of one primary factor, and one equally relevant category. The first is, of course, density: People who see the opposite sex as an object to attain, have fewer (and different) emotions on the line, and so it takes less courage/energy/whatever to ask them out, resulting in more prospective partners. The category is personality interlays: many people in our society, male, female, and other, internalize a sense of inferiority to those around them, and that makes them perfect prey for such people. (Note: I am making sweeping generalizations that apply to large statistics, not individuals) There are, of course, other kinds of people who are attracted to such insensitive types for a variety of reasons, some of them are even noble.

So really it's: there are people out there who are susceptible to that personality, and by sheer volume, those people find them.


And it's difficult not to go places hoping for an SO. It doesn't really turn off.

Yup. Course, on my part it's more that I don't go places much not having money I want to spend and all.

[Lentrax]

Lentrax, I am not sure I understand what you are telling us.
Every time your wife tells you that she wants ice cream, you go to DQ and get some.
But somebody else (yourself, I am guessing) also wants ice cream, but forget to pick some up?

Maybe next time you go to the grocery store, pick up a gallon of ice cream. Twice a week sounds like a lot of ice cream, this would be more economical.

Or if this occurs at night, maybe you put the kids to bed or put the oldest in charge, and take your wife to get the ice cream together! That way, she could realize the inconvenience she is putting on you, and you could make it a date.

Can't leave my autistic son alone.

But no, she goes at three in the afternoon. Or at two. And never ever asks me if I want something.

[Blaknic]

Hmm.... take my advice with a grain or dozen of salt- I have no wife, nor kids.
Talk to her about it, though. Don't be dramatic or reactionary, but next time she goes out for ice cream, ask her for some, or offer to get the ice cream that she wants while she watches the kids.
I think that this is something that can be settled with conversation, just let her know that you are hurt. She loves you, and doesn't want to hurt you, and I am sure the two of you can work something out to mutual satisfaction.

[rogueboy]

I'm not on campus at the moment. I'm a few months away before I get to go to campus. But I agree that it seems the best bet for me.

I do plan on joining clubs when I get there, though.

And it's difficult not to go places hoping for an SO. It doesn't really turn off.

Alright, well, that's a start. Sucks in the meantime, however (but you already knew that). I'd recommend trying to find 1 of those activities/clubs that you can avoid SO hopes at. It may not be much, but if you join 3 clubs and one of them doesn't have SO attachments (even if the other 2 still do, at whatever level), then you'll still be accomplishing what I was recommending (making friends rather than looking for an SO). Then you gain skills to focus on making friends, and the SO part may (or may not, depends on a lot of things) become less of a constant.

[Mattarias, King.]

Uhm, hey.. Any advice for someone who just ended an 8-year (or so) relationship a bit ago?

I won't bore you with the details if you don't want them, but essentially, I'm torn between "I AM FREE!" and "Oh geez, what do I do now?!" Like... How do you move on, I guess is what I'm asking? Or even go back to like... Dating?

Geez, this is weird...

[Serpentine]

Why the **** do guys who act like women are objects get relationships and one night stands? Why can people so easily say "which one do you want?" in reference to women and still get relationships? Why do people get to be so vulgar and overly sexual and exude misogynistic tendencies and still get relationships, regardless of whether or not that's how they are deep down?Ahhh, the sweet refreshing scent of "why do girls date jerks?"! It's been a while.
Two sources about that:
The short version. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18804_the-6-wrong-questions-men-love-to-ask-about-women.html)
The long version. (http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/03/women-like-*******s/all/1/)
A Playgrounder's version from another time it came up, which I endorsed:

Thoughts on the whole "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" thing.

1. Don't be "nice". Be good. There is a difference between a "Nice Guy" and a good man. A good man will do the right thing, regardless of whether it comes across as "nice". The nice guy (and in this post I'll use the term to refer to the kind of guy who would actually say "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" out loud) is so invested in everyone thinking of him as nice, that he does bad things out of peer pressure or - more often - does nothing when he should do something, because someone might not like it.

2. Being nice does not mean anyone owes you anything. A "nice guy" will often have a sense of entitlement, and not even realize it. "I shouldn't have to work at getting a girlfriend. Look how nice I am! Why doesn't [girl I like] see it?" So instead of confidently asking her out, he'll do "nice" things for her so she'll see how nice he is and fall for him. This becomes frustrating because, if she's not already a friend, it can come off as stalkerish. If she is a friend, well, he's just doing what friends do. The whole time, the "nice guy" will be thinking, "Why doesn't she see/appreciate everything I'm doing for her? I'm so nice!" This brings us to the next point...

3. If you're a friend, be a friend. A friend-zoned nice guy often (but not always) becomes the go-to guy for the object of his affections to talk about her relationship problems. Because he's non-threatening, she feels she can open up to him. So he hears about the problems she's having with her SO, and this adds to his frustration because why is she still with this guy if he's such a jerk? There's a perfect guy right in front of her, and he'd never do those mean things to her!

If you truly do care about her, respect that she's with someone else. If she becomes available, then ask her out. But don't mope and pity yourself because she's not with you.

4. The guy she's dating is probably not a jerk. Just gonna throw that right out there. Some women do repeatedly, tragically, date and marry guys who treat them like crap, but I tend to think that happens less often than "nice guys" think. The nice guy is usually projecting. He sees the other guy as a jerk because he's a rival. If I think a girl should belong to with me, obviously any other guy she's with is not good enough for her, right? And there's a more primal reason - a rival male is threatening. Males fight over females all over the animal kingdom.

This may be compounded by the issue discussed in point 3 - he may only hear about it when her boyfriend does something mean or insensitive, so he never really gets to know who the boyfriend really is.

5. Be confident. The quality that gets mistaken for "jerkiness," I am convinced, is confidence. Confidence is attractive. Jerks usually have it (after all, you have to have a certain amount of confidence to treat others like crap and not care), but not everyone who has it is a jerk. The "nice guy" usually doesn't have it, and he's jealous of those who do, even if he doesn't realize it himself. He hopes the girl he likes will see how nice he is, but he doesn't ask her out because he's afraid of rejection. Protip: Confident guys are afraid of rejection too. It takes courage to ask a girl out, especially if you care what she thinks of you. But the difference is, a confident guy goes into it assuming she'll say yes. And when she says no, if he respects her he'll accept that even if he doesn't like it.

EDIT: Another aspect of confidence is having opinions of your own. Don't be so caught up in impressing her that you agree with everything she says. It usually comes across as insincere. If you're confident in yourself, you can be yourself without worrying if she'll like you. (Thanks to Ceric's article below for reminding me of this one)

Another point Serpie brings up: Arrogance and confidence go hand in hand, and it can be hard to tell the difference between the two. Confidence is sexy; arrogance is not. It's a fine line, but it's all about respect. If you respect yourself, you'll be confident. If you respect others, you can be humble as well. Humility does not mean thinking badly of yourself - it means thinking accurately of yourself.

Where the "nice guy" sees arrogance, the "girl-who-dates-jerks" might see confidence. Either or both of them might be right. Keep it in perspective, and remember that right or wrong, it's her decision to make.
/EDIT


I say all this from the perspective of one who considered himself a "nice guy" for years, and never got dates. So most of that stuff above, I did. It wasn't until later that I looked back and saw that a lot of the things about me that I thought made me a nice guy actually came across as kind of creepy. It didn't change until I was helping an attractive friend of a friend move into her new apartment. A week later, she asked me out. I had no ulterior motive, and no romantic intentions toward her - and that made the difference. I helped her with no expectation of reward, and she saw that. It was a turning point, because not only did I get a confidence boost, it made me objectively reexamine the reasons for my previous lack of a love life. If I really was attractive enough for a more-or-less stranger to ask me out, what had I been doing wrong before?

And one final disclaimer: "Nice," as I use it in this post, is different from "kind". Kindness is always a good thing, and I encourage everyone to show kindness to everyone they meet. What I rail against is the kind of entitled "nice guy" who thinks he's being kind, but is really being a doormat and/or being nice in hopes of a sexual reward. I heartily subscribe to the maxim, "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness."
The important bits:
- Perspective bias
- What girls, as a generalisation, actually like is not jerks, but confidence, assertiveness, lack of doormattedness, independence, and so on.
- Some girls may mistake jerkiness for confidence etc. Conversely, it is just as easy for guys to mistake confidence etc. for jerkiness when seen in someone they perceive as a rival.
- Pretty much anyone can get a one night stand if they really want to. If you want one, go out and get one. If you don't, why are you comparing yourself to those people who are doing something you don't want to do in the first place?

And it's difficult not to go places hoping for an SO. It doesn't really turn off.I can get that. The thing is, then, to shift its priority. Go there for entertainment and self-improvement and general socialisation first, and to pick up second.

Uhm, hey.. Any advice for someone who just ended an 8-year (or so) relationship a bit ago?

I won't bore you with the details if you don't want them, but essentially, I'm torn between "I AM FREE!" and "Oh geez, what do I do now?!" Like... How do you move on, I guess is what I'm asking? Or even go back to like... Dating?

Geez, this is weird...Ouch :smallfrown:
Well... How long is a bit ago, and just for reference, how old are you? Oh, and what sort of a break-up was it?
First and foremost, look after yourself. Be self-aware, acknowledge your feelings and that it's okay to have them. Do things that make you happy, and spend lots of time with other people.
Getting back into dating... I dunno. I recommend not seeking out a new relationship yet (depending on how long ago the break up happened and what sort it was and so on), but casual dating could be good for you. In which case, it's the usual stuff: go out and meet people, get your friends to introduce you to new people, do social activities, be open, etc.

[ArlEammon]

crap crap crap crappity crap crap crap

[Serpentine]

What's up?

[Glass Mouse]

Uhm, hey.. Any advice for someone who just ended an 8-year (or so) relationship a bit ago?

I won't bore you with the details if you don't want them, but essentially, I'm torn between "I AM FREE!" and "Oh geez, what do I do now?!" Like... How do you move on, I guess is what I'm asking? Or even go back to like... Dating?

Geez, this is weird...

Many virtual hugs. I ended a 8-ish relationship six months ago, and I'm still not over it. But trust me that it gets way better and less confusing with time.

Some things that have helped me over the past months (spoilered for ungodly length):
The "I AM FREE!" feeling stays for a while, and being single will seem like the most important thing to your identity while you sort through the emotions and go, "Oh my gosh, I can do THIS, and THAT!". But after some time, that will fade and your mood and general emotion level will be back to normal. I went through a ton of self-improvement and partying and stuff just after my relationship ended, but I'm mostly back to status quo now, just much calmer and more content. I've heard this is normal, and eventhough the "drop" might feel scary (it did to me, in the "oh my god, life didn't completely change like I thought it would, I MADE THE WRONG DECISION!" way), it doesn't mean anything. It's just how it goes.

Friends, friends, friends. This is when you'll learn who are good, true friends and who aren't. The friends who support you and pull you out of your funk, hang onto them. They're great. Don't be afraid to ask for company or support. I know it feels strange to reevaluate friendships like that (especially if you've spent a lot of time and energy on your failing relationship and neglected your friends recently), but good friends will want to help.

Even if you're the one who ended it (which I assume from your wording), it's totally okay to feel sad and miss the good times and everything. You're not the villain, and you're not expected to be immediately happy. Society's scripts about dumper and dumpee are mostly BS. Let yourself feel sad if you need to.

I don't remember where I heard it, but: "The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else." While crude, I think there's some truth to this. You don't need to go crazy but for me, tipping my toe in the dating pool helped a lot. It was only after imploding a FWB attempt that I realized where I stand in regards to romance and stuff (note: don't implode things). And my ex seems much calmer now that he's started going on dates.
DON'T go for a longterm relationship right away. It will be a rebound and unfair to the other person. The point is to teach yourself that there are alternatives out there, not to actually find an alternative yet.

You will miss your S.O. That's okay. All the good things about your ex will seem SO much better, and the bad things will seem insignificant. That is a lie your brain is telling you. Remember why you broke up. If you haven't already, write it down and revisit that text when you're feeling particularly sad or missing your ex. There's a reason you broke up, and while you might patch things together again if you both grow as persons before trying again, you should NOT get back together just because your sorrow-brain has bad memory.
I was really surprised by how much I missed my own ex, considering how much I wanted out of the relationship in the past few months. Just... it might surprise you. But it doesn't mean you made a mistake.
Also, it might be helpful to you to separate "missing the person" from "missing parts of the person/relationship". There's a huge difference.

How to get back to dating? Online dating is a nicely low-pressure way with a bad succes rate, though not a terrible one. Remember to have trusted friends go through your profile and help you put your best face forward. Otherwise, what Serp said. You're probably rusty, so don't expect succes right away. Just start slow, and see what happens.

Also, while I would recommend light dating, it should not be your priority. No. 1 is building yourself up and learning how to stand on your own. Be careful that you don't turn dating into a crutch or another way to define yourself. There is an identity hole leftover from your relationship, and depending on your age you might not know how to fill it (god knows I don't). So, make sure to focus on yourself. Pick up a hobby you always wanted, hang out with friends, read books, whatever. Just focus on yourself and what you want to do.

I'll stop the awful rambling here. Much sympathy, and I hope you figure things out. :smallsmile:

[Silverrida]

Serpentine, you addressed my question with a very generic set of answers while ignoring the question itself.

I did not ask why women date jerks. I asked how guys who treat women like objects, are misogynistic, and claim ownership over women get girlfriends.

Very similar questions, but whereas the first can be attributed to "why don't they date ME?" in its generic questioning, the second is much more specific and was failed to be addressed.

I am aware that women like confidence and oftentimes being an ******* comes off as confident. I am not aware as to why women like to be referred to as objects.

And I mention one night stands because I don't see how jerks can get them, but you generally are a jerk to trick someone into a one night stand so it doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry I keep editing this, and sorry for coming off as vitriolic, but your response seemed to lump me in with a set group of people that I am not a part of. I do not assume that people should go out with me because I am nice. In fact, I feel abhorrent and if someone were to go out with me it'd be doing me a favor. I don't not ask girls out. I ask and am always rejected. I am aware of my lack of confidence.

The response you gave was generic and it feels like you're painting me in this negative light and making it seem like my inability to date is all my fault using assumptions that you couldn't possibly know about me. And those articles that you reference do the same, but they address a wide range of people whereas you posted those directly to me.

I DO think that my inability to date is intrinsic and my fault, but not because of the reasons you posted because not all of them apply to me.

I am aware you are trying to help, and I do appreciate it, but please don't assume things about me. I will answer any questions you have to help the process.

I will respond to the rest of you guys too, I'm just sorta breaking down at the moment.

[ArlEammon]

What's up?

Eh. . .
Thanks I"m talking about it already. :D

[Mattarias, King.]

Ouch :smallfrown:
Well... How long is a bit ago, and just for reference, how old are you? Oh, and what sort of a break-up was it?
First and foremost, look after yourself. Be self-aware, acknowledge your feelings and that it's okay to have them. Do things that make you happy, and spend lots of time with other people.
Getting back into dating... I dunno. I recommend not seeking out a new relationship yet (depending on how long ago the break up happened and what sort it was and so on), but casual dating could be good for you. In which case, it's the usual stuff: go out and meet people, get your friends to introduce you to new people, do social activities, be open, etc.

Just the other week. And I'm 22. It was... A sad one, I guess. "She" (Blahblahblah long story, no longer a she anymore, nor the person I used to love, I couldn't deal with it, just killed me inside. Had to end it.) still loves me, but decided it was best to "let me go".

:smallsigh: Yeah... Anyways, thanks... Mostly I've been drowning myself in games, since I don't really have much access to physical human interaction.


Many virtual hugs. I ended a 8-ish relationship six months ago, and I'm still not over it. But trust me that it gets way better and less confusing with time.

Some things that have helped me over the past months (spoilered for ungodly length):

-snip-

I'll stop the awful rambling here. Much sympathy, and I hope you figure things out. :smallsmile:

Thank you kindly. Helps to hear from someone in the same boat.

I actually tried to breakup things much earlier, but I fell for my brain's tricks like you mentioned and came crawling back. :\ Doesn't help that I hate making people cry. Everyone tells me I'm just too dang NICE...

Anyways, again, thanks. Focusing on myself sounds good. No idea if or HOW I should jump into the dating scene though. :\ I just kinda was friends with my old SO and it evolved from there.

Well, good luck with your voyages on this boat, Glass Mouse. :) Though you're ahead of me, it looks like. Ahah..

[rogueboy]

Serpentine, you addressed my question with a very generic set of answers while ignoring the question itself.

I did not ask why women date jerks. I asked how guys who treat women like objects, are misogynistic, and claim ownership over women get girlfriends.

Very similar questions, but whereas the first can be attributed to "why don't they date ME?" in its generic questioning, the second is much more specific and was failed to be addressed.

I am aware that women like confidence and oftentimes being an ******* comes off as confident. I am not aware as to why women like to be referred to as objects.


What distinction are you making between "jerks" and "guys who treat women like objects, are misogynistic, and claim ownership over women"? To me, the latter is simply a specific type of jerkiness.


And I mention one night stands because I don't see how jerks can get them, but you generally are a jerk to trick someone into a one night stand so it doesn't make sense to me.

Unless you have direct evidence that they're tricking girls into one night stands, there's no reason to believe that's actually the case. It may well be that they're going after a one night stand openly, and just having success at finding girls who want the same (whether that's because they have really good success records, or that you just aren't noticing the failed attempts - which would be natural human behavior, nothing about you specifically).


Sorry I keep editing this, and sorry for coming off as vitriolic, but your response seemed to lump me in with a set group of people that I am not a part of. I do not assume that people should go out with me because I am nice. In fact, I feel abhorrent and if someone were to go out with me it'd be doing me a favor. I don't not ask girls out. I ask and am always rejected. I am aware of my lack of confidence.

Then you start by working on building and then displaying that confidence (I'm in the second category - I'm self-confident, but don't always display that if I'm not completely comfortable in the situation).

I bolded the part that sticks out to me. The way you phrased it makes it seem like you don't actually want someone to say yes (first sentence), but you ask them out and are complaining when they say no (last 2)... Something seems off here. Either you phrased something in a way that lost your meaning, or there's a cognitive disconnect going on here.


The response you gave was generic and it feels like you're painting me in this negative light and making it seem like my inability to date is all my fault using assumptions that you couldn't possibly know about me. And those articles that you reference do the same, but they address a wide range of people whereas you posted those directly to me.

I DO think that my inability to date is intrinsic and my fault, but not because of the reasons you posted because not all of them apply to me.

I am aware you are trying to help, and I do appreciate it, but please don't assume things about me. I will answer any questions you have to help the process.

I will respond to the rest of you guys too, I'm just sorta breaking down at the moment.

(speaking for someone else here, so I may be wrong): Serp posted those as useful things to keep in mind when analyzing your behavior and the responses of everyone around you. Even if they don't directly apply to you, they may give you an insight into how other people think, and how you can use that in order to accomplish what you want to.

If your inability to date is something about you, then your focus should be on fixing that. For me, at least, I can't be confident in looking for an SO if there's something about me that makes me feel unattractive (like my current lack of employment) - not necessarily a deal-breaker for most (or even many), but it makes me feel less confident, and so I know that I can't present myself well until I have that under control. Only when I feel like I'm a dateable person can I attempt to pursue a SO.

[Silverrida]

What distinction are you making between "jerks" and "guys who treat women like objects, are misogynistic, and claim ownership over women"? To me, the latter is simply a specific type of jerkiness.



Unless you have direct evidence that they're tricking girls into one night stands, there's no reason to believe that's actually the case. It may well be that they're going after a one night stand openly, and just having success at finding girls who want the same (whether that's because they have really good success records, or that you just aren't noticing the failed attempts - which would be natural human behavior, nothing about you specifically).



Then you start by working on building and then displaying that confidence (I'm in the second category - I'm self-confident, but don't always display that if I'm not completely comfortable in the situation).

I bolded the part that sticks out to me. The way you phrased it makes it seem like you don't actually want someone to say yes (first sentence), but you ask them out and are complaining when they say no (last 2)... Something seems off here. Either you phrased something in a way that lost your meaning, or there's a cognitive disconnect going on here.



(speaking for someone else here, so I may be wrong): Serp posted those as useful things to keep in mind when analyzing your behavior and the responses of everyone around you. Even if they don't directly apply to you, they may give you an insight into how other people think, and how you can use that in order to accomplish what you want to.

If your inability to date is something about you, then your focus should be on fixing that. For me, at least, I can't be confident in looking for an SO if there's something about me that makes me feel unattractive (like my current lack of employment) - not necessarily a deal-breaker for most (or even many), but it makes me feel less confident, and so I know that I can't present myself well until I have that under control. Only when I feel like I'm a dateable person can I attempt to pursue a SO.

The latter IS a specific type of jerkiness. The issue is when "nice" guys talk about girls dating "jerks" it can be assumed that there's this nebulous trait of being a jerk that may or may not actually exist. And then I seem like one of the guys all that advice was addressing. Someone who thinks that they have a right to date people and doesn't acknowledge or interpret correctly what is actually going on.

I have at least two female friends who were tricked into one night stands, at least from their perspective, and it hurt them quite a bit.

I have no confidence. There is none to display.

And I don't understand where the dissonance comes into play. Why would assuming that someone saying yes would be doing me a favor mean that I don't want them to say yes? I just think it's unlikely for someone to like me romantically. I would still like to be given a chance.

And I know Serp was trying to be helpful, but there has been a recent trend is seems where all this advice feels like it's blaming the single person for being single because they are putting up this sort of fake front with the assumption that that front entitles them to things. This is hurtful when I'm accused of such things because I personally do not think this is what is happening. I think something else is happening, but the advice assumes things about me that are unfair I think.

And I definitely have no confidence, but I have no idea how to work on that. I also think I am intrinsically unlovable and I don't know how to work on that.

Advice from my therapist actually echoes that in this thread which is I need to be more social. That will help. The issue is, I'm not anti or asocial, I jut am social with people I know. I have few venues to meet new people, so college seems to be my best bet.

[Aedilred]

And I don't understand where the dissonance comes into play. Why would assuming that someone saying yes would be doing me a favor mean that I don't want them to say yes? I just think it's unlikely for someone to like me romantically. I would still like to be given a chance.
I don't know whether it's what was intended, but there can sometimes be a sense that when someone purports to want something too much, in fact the idea of getting it frightens them, and whether deliberately or not, they sabotage their own attempts. I see it often in people who are unemployed, especially for long periods - they claim they want a job and may even believe that, but they're not actually putting in the effort, research, changes in lifestyle or whatever that might make that state of affairs possible. Likewise, I've seen single people who appear or claim to want a relationship desperately, but are actually terrified of the prospect of what that would entail.

It's common in such scenarios for the person to refer to themselves as "unemployable" or "undateable" and talk about how someone taking them on would be a huge favour and so forth - because by doing so they're casting the blame back on intrinsic flaws that they can't help, rather than their own failures to pursue opportunities.

It's a cousin of the "why do girls only date jerks, not nice guys like me" conundrum - it's displacing responsibility, albeit inwardly rather than outwardly.

And I know Serp was trying to be helpful, but there has been a recent trend is seems where all this advice feels like it's blaming the single person for being single because they are putting up this sort of fake front with the assumption that that front entitles them to things. This is hurtful when I'm accused of such things because I personally do not think this is what is happening. I think something else is happening, but the advice assumes things about me that are unfair I think.
Well, being blunt, a lot of the responsibility for continued singledom does rest on the shoulders of the individual. There are people out there, but it takes effort and sacrifice to find them; it's not the responsibility of the world to find you a partner. Sometimes you'll get lucky and chance will throw you into the path of someone, or a friend will play matchmaker, but there's no compulsion for them to do so or guarantee that will happen. It's all on the individual.

Now, the precise reasons behind the failure to find a relationship vary from person to person. However, the "girls only date jerks!" complaint is a common one often seen from people who have trouble finding girlfriends, and whether it's voiced or not, the implication is "...whereas I respect them and am nice and stuff". This issue has been thrashed over many times on the thread and there are people who can explain it better than me. But the way you talk about things there is definitely a hint of that sort of thinking, which is what's leading people in that direction.


And I definitely have no confidence, but I have no idea how to work on that. I also think I am intrinsically unlovable and I don't know how to work on that.
See my comment earlier about "intrinsic" flaws. Are you actually unlovable, or is it just easier to claim/believe that you are to justify your situation and reaction to it? The latter seems far more credible. If the former is actually true, then fixing it is a far more pressing problem than your relationship status. Have you brought that up with your therapist? It's beyond my competence to advise on really, but I'm as sure as I can be that your actually being intrinsically unlovable is not the case.

As for the confidence thing, that's often something that takes a bit of work. Identify good points in your character, appearance, skills, etc. and take pride in them. Confidence will follow. Again, this is something I'd hope your therapist could help you with.

[rogueboy]

The latter IS a specific type of jerkiness. The issue is when "nice" guys talk about girls dating "jerks" it can be assumed that there's this nebulous trait of being a jerk that may or may not actually exist. And then I seem like one of the guys all that advice was addressing. Someone who thinks that they have a right to date people and doesn't acknowledge or interpret correctly what is actually going on.

The way this sounds (at least to me) is this: 'I see guys being jerks and getting a GF/ONS. Women shouldn't like jerks. Therefore this shouldn't happen.' While this doesn't have the Nice Guy element of "I'm nice, so they should date me instead" (at least on the surface - I can't speak to your subconscious, though as has been suggested, it may be there, even if you aren't consciously realizing it), it's exactly the same thought process that Nice Guys start with, just without the final step not being vocalized. I expect this is why people are cuing into the typical responses for Nice Guy-type comments.


I have at least two female friends who were tricked into one night stands, at least from their perspective, and it hurt them quite a bit.

That means that it's happened twice. Not that it's always happening. Please don't mistake "I saw/heard about it once!" for "It's what always happens."


I have no confidence. There is none to display.

Please re-read my earlier post. I didn't say you had to display non-existent confidence. I said that you needed to develop that confidence, and then display it. Obviously, you can't do step 2 without step 1 (well, you can, but that's a separate issue, in the "fake it 'til you make it" camp), and step 1 without step 2 isn't enough - you need both.


And I don't understand where the dissonance comes into play. Why would assuming that someone saying yes would be doing me a favor mean that I don't want them to say yes? I just think it's unlikely for someone to like me romantically. I would still like to be given a chance.

The dissonance came from how you phrased it. Allow me to try to explain how I saw your earlier post again:
* I feel "abhorrent".
* If someone were to date me, it would only be out of pity.
* I ask girls out.
* I get turned down.
Now, look at the second bullet point. That says that if the girl said yes to your advance, you'd feel it was out of pity. Since someone dating you only out of pity would suck (based on my own beliefs and your implication), you can't win at the 4th point. Either you get turned down (current state of affairs) and are frustrated by that, or they say yes (your stated desire) out of pity (your implication) and will get frustrated by that. Your setting yourself up for failure here, unless there's something that you haven't gotten across.


And I know Serp was trying to be helpful, but there has been a recent trend is seems where all this advice feels like it's blaming the single person for being single because they are putting up this sort of fake front with the assumption that that front entitles them to things. This is hurtful when I'm accused of such things because I personally do not think this is what is happening. I think something else is happening, but the advice assumes things about me that are unfair I think.

I'm going to have to agree with Aedilred. While the blame may not lie 100% with the single person, a lot of the reasons they are single does lie within the single person. In addition, you can't change how other people act/react (and neither can we), so there isn't a whole lot of benefit to focusing on the other side. All we can do is give you suggestions for how to correct where you might be going wrong, or start you thinking about how to take our ideas and run with them.


And I definitely have no confidence, but I have no idea how to work on that. I also think I am intrinsically unlovable and I don't know how to work on that.

The former will help with the latter. Focus on the former first. Once that's settled, then you can work on the latter (or discover that it may well have worked itself out). I'll also echo Aedilred here again: "Are you actually unlovable, or is it just easier to claim/believe that you are to justify your situation and reaction to it? The latter seems far more credible. If the former is actually true, then fixing it is a far more pressing problem than your relationship status. Have you brought that up with your therapist? It's beyond my competence to advise on really, but I'm as sure as I can be that your actually being intrinsically unlovable is not the case." I'll add this: remember that your therapist can only really help you if you're completely honest with them, and work hard to change yourself.


Advice from my therapist actually echoes that in this thread which is I need to be more social. That will help. The issue is, I'm not anti or asocial, I jut am social with people I know. I have few venues to meet new people, so college seems to be my best bet.

You don't have to be anti-social or asocial to not be getting out much. You can also have times where you don't feel like doing things with other people without being anti-social. Try to find 1 thing that you enjoy doing (that can be done with others), and do that. Talk with the people your doing that activity with. If they mention they're going somewhere afterwards, join them whenever you can. Make yourself talk to 1 new person each time you go. As time goes on, you'll notice that the things you had to force yourself to do at first (go at all, go regularly, talk to people, hang out outside of the main activity) become habitual and natural. Then push yourself to do a bit more. Whether it's within the same activity or a new one, expand your social circle. Just remember not to abandon the first one entirely if you start a new one :smallwink:

[theangelJean]

Why the **** do guys who act like women are objects get relationships and one night stands? Why can people so easily say "which one do you want?" in reference to women and still get relationships? Why do people get to be so vulgar and overly sexual and exude misogynistic tendencies and still get relationships, regardless of whether or not that's how they are deep down?



I have at least two female friends who were tricked into one night stands, at least from their perspective, and it hurt them quite a bit.

I have no confidence. There is none to display.

And I don't understand where the dissonance comes into play. Why would assuming that someone saying yes would be doing me a favor mean that I don't want them to say yes? I just think it's unlikely for someone to like me romantically. I would still like to be given a chance.

And I know Serp was trying to be helpful, but there has been a recent trend is seems where all this advice feels like it's blaming the single person for being single because they are putting up this sort of fake front with the assumption that that front entitles them to things. This is hurtful when I'm accused of such things because I personally do not think this is what is happening. I think something else is happening, but the advice assumes things about me that are unfair I think.

And I definitely have no confidence, but I have no idea how to work on that. I also think I am intrinsically unlovable and I don't know how to work on that.

Advice from my therapist actually echoes that in this thread which is I need to be more social. That will help. The issue is, I'm not anti or asocial, I jut am social with people I know. I have few venues to meet new people, so college seems to be my best bet.

Okay, so having established that you are not expressing any feelings of entitlement to getting a date, and that you are not in fact asking why you can't get a date, but purely wondering why some other person(s) who you think of as having negative qualities can get a date/into a relationship, I'm going to attempt to answer the actual question. However, the answer may not be of any actual use to you at all.

Why might this answer not be useful to you? Because the answer is "it depends very heavily on the two people who decided to get together and the situation in which it happens" - and neither of those people is you. Right?

(You mentioned that two of your female friends were hurt by situations like this recently. Sure, they might be asking themselves "why did this happen?" and "how can I avoid this in future?" Keep in mind that even if I could tell you why it happened - and I give a few examples below - I still wouldn't advise telling them "It was because of this, and you should do this in future to avoid it". It doesn't usually come off well. You might be able to ask them questions, see if they've thought of certain ideas, see what they manage to think of themselves - the Socratic questioning method. You don't have to. You're not their therapist. I would only suggest "listening to what they have to say" as a good friend thing to do.)

So the almost completely useless answer to your question is... (wall of text follows)

... that people - all people - are multifaceted beings, who can never completely know the mind, soul and innermost thoughts of another person. And when two people agree to go on a date, it's usually because each of them wants something, and they think that the other person might be able to fulfil their desires - but they might be wrong. I'm pretty sure those are some of the only universal things you can say about people going on dates - there is an exception to pretty much any other generalisation you can think of.

As to the reason why it happens that people go on dates with other people who are jerks, it's because of exceptions to things that you might think would be (or maybe you think they should be) always true. For example:

1) A person doesn't always know about all the negative aspects of the person they are dating. Personal example: in high school, I dated a guy who I eventually decided was a jerk (and subsequently broke up with him). When we started going out, I simply did not know that he would display aggressive behaviour towards other people on public transport when irritated. It just wasn't something that came up until about eight months into our relationship. It took me another three to break it off (we were long-distance) so we were "together" nearly a year. End result: I was in a relationship with a person who actually wasn't really what I wanted, for nearly a year. It happens. Anyway, it's quite common for people to present their best aspects when starting out a relationship, and it's also common for people to act differently around their partner/potential partners than around other people.

2) The two people in a relationship/going on a date don't always want the same thing out of it. And they don't always do a good job of expressing what they want, either. If your two friends didn't want a one-night stand but the people they went out with did, it could be that something got lost in communication, it didn't get discussed in the first place, or someone outright lied. All of these things can and do happen, but just assuming that both people want the same thing can lead to a lot of heartache.

3) Even if people know about their partner's behaviour or beliefs, they won't always find it to be a deal-breaker, or even a turn-off. After all, there are all kinds of different things that people want out of relationships, and a person who holds or expresses misogynist views can (and usually does) have other aspects to their personality, behaviour and life. If people feel their needs are being fulfilled, then they can sometimes excuse all manner of other things. For example, they might think their partner doesn't really mean the things they say, especially if they like the way their partner acts towards them.

4) People don't always recognise misogynist attitudes when they see them. This should be obvious from the fact that whenever the topic of misogyny comes up on the internet and in public discourse, there are at least some people arguing both sides, and not all the people saying "there's nothing wrong with that attitude/behaviour" are male. There are some sexist and gender-essentialist beliefs that have become ingrained into some societies, not the least of which is "women should be beautiful and their looks can be judged", and you will find people both male and female who subscribe to any and all of them, to some extent. Sad but true. So yes, you will see women who go out with men who treat them as objects, and no matter how much you think "this shouldn't happen" it just does.

5) People don't always know what they actually want when they start a relationship/go on a date. Especially in highschool or in their first ever relationship. (I think you mentioned you're not yet in college? Is the same true of your friends?) This is my excuse for why I was in a relationship with that person I no longer think of fondly: I was enamoured of the bright, shiny and new idea of being in love, and didn't actually stop to think about what I wanted from the relationship. It took me a while to realise that I didn't want to be with a person who was rude to my friends and who talked only about himself.

6) People who start out wanting one thing won't always continue to feel that way. In the case of your two friends, you can see the possibilities I listed in 2) above, but another one is that the guy simply changed their mind after that one night. It happens. Hey, it might even happen to you - remember that you, too, are entitled to change your mind about a relationship. Of course, there are several different possible courses of action from there ...


Now, there are two reasons I'm writing all this. One is to remind you that you cannot change any of these things to how you might think they "should" be, because that involves changing other people's behaviour. Sure, you can inform people of your opinions. Sometimes, someone who listens to you might even change their mind. But that's up to them, not you. I know you don't think of yourself as perfect, but remember that nobody else is perfect either! If you go about thinking "this shouldn't happen" ... that can easily lead to anxiety and depression, because you can't make other people different to what they are. (I speak from experience here: I know that path well.) You can change yourself, learn something from your mistakes and those you see others make, and be a better person than you were yesterday, discuss things with other people, and hope that other people might consider a different way of doing things. (I personally subscribe to the belief that it is pointless to feel like you're a better person than other people, but "being a better person than I was in the past" is a worthwhile goal. Not that it's as easy as it sounds...)

The other reason I write this is to remind you that some of these things can actually work to your advantage. Specifically number 3: a person's flaws do not necessarily make them unloveable and completely unworthy of a relationship. Nobody's perfect. There are people out there with many different wants and needs, and they all put different priorities on each of these wants and needs because they realise that they don't need to be with someone who is perfect. In finding someone they really like, they might be prepared to either accept or overlook some of their partner's flaws or hope that those things might change (especially if the partner is actually prepared to work on those aspects of themselves). Or they might not even think that those aspects are flaws. Not everyone will feel that way about you, but there are a lot of people out there, and someone might. Have hope.

[Silverrida]

I don't know whether it's what was intended, but there can sometimes be a sense that when someone purports to want something too much, in fact the idea of getting it frightens them, and whether deliberately or not, they sabotage their own attempts. I see it often in people who are unemployed, especially for long periods - they claim they want a job and may even believe that, but they're not actually putting in the effort, research, changes in lifestyle or whatever that might make that state of affairs possible. Likewise, I've seen single people who appear or claim to want a relationship desperately, but are actually terrified of the prospect of what that would entail.

It's common in such scenarios for the person to refer to themselves as "unemployable" or "undateable" and talk about how someone taking them on would be a huge favour and so forth - because by doing so they're casting the blame back on intrinsic flaws that they can't help, rather than their own failures to pursue opportunities.

It's a cousin of the "why do girls only date jerks, not nice guys like me" conundrum - it's displacing responsibility, albeit inwardly rather than outwardly.

Okay, I can understand this line of thinking occurring, but then I would need help identifying what it is that I am actually doing incorrectly? I am definitely not choosing to not pursue venues. Again, I'm not single because I haven't asked anyone out. I'm single because I've only ever been told no.

So I would need to know the specific shortcomings to work on, basically, and they aren't addressed in the wall of advice that was given earlier because I don't have all the problems issued there, though as I have said repeatedly I do have no confidence.


Well, being blunt, a lot of the responsibility for continued singledom does rest on the shoulders of the individual. There are people out there, but it takes effort and sacrifice to find them; it's not the responsibility of the world to find you a partner. Sometimes you'll get lucky and chance will throw you into the path of someone, or a friend will play matchmaker, but there's no compulsion for them to do so or guarantee that will happen. It's all on the individual.

I never said it didn't. However, as you pointed out above, I do blame intrinsic things because...well, I do think it's intrinsic. But I'm not just doing nothing. Last time I was at a venue where I met new people, specifically females, was about a week ago, and none of the new people seemed to be remotely interested in associating with me, guy and girl alike.


Now, the precise reasons behind the failure to find a relationship vary from person to person. However, the "girls only date jerks!" complaint is a common one often seen from people who have trouble finding girlfriends, and whether it's voiced or not, the implication is "...whereas I respect them and am nice and stuff". This issue has been thrashed over many times on the thread and there are people who can explain it better than me. But the way you talk about things there is definitely a hint of that sort of thinking, which is what's leading people in that direction.

That is, I feel, an unfair assumption. My attitude in this is, I guess, more like "They're *******s and can get relationships, so why can't I despite being broken?" It's not an "I'm better than them" thing, it's an "I'm also bad, but in different ways yet I still fail" thing.



See my comment earlier about "intrinsic" flaws. Are you actually unlovable, or is it just easier to claim/believe that you are to justify your situation and reaction to it? The latter seems far more credible. If the former is actually true, then fixing it is a far more pressing problem than your relationship status. Have you brought that up with your therapist? It's beyond my competence to advise on really, but I'm as sure as I can be that your actually being intrinsically unlovable is not the case.

As for the confidence thing, that's often something that takes a bit of work. Identify good points in your character, appearance, skills, etc. and take pride in them. Confidence will follow. Again, this is something I'd hope your therapist could help you with.

Uh, well I definitely believe I'm unlovable, so I don't know if I "actually" am or not (Though my therapist echoes my claim of others back at me saying that lovability isn't up for debate but is intrinsic). I have brought this up to my therapist, and his conclusion is actually separate from both yours and mine. It's not that I have massive life changes I need to make and it's not that I am intrinsically unlovable: It is that I am unlucky.

He has actually said, since I have brought up having to make life changes, that if I needed to make huge life changes to make things better we would be focusing on that instead of him helping me find a relationship.


The way this sounds (at least to me) is this: 'I see guys being jerks and getting a GF/ONS. Women shouldn't like jerks. Therefore this shouldn't happen.' While this doesn't have the Nice Guy element of "I'm nice, so they should date me instead" (at least on the surface - I can't speak to your subconscious, though as has been suggested, it may be there, even if you aren't consciously realizing it), it's exactly the same thought process that Nice Guys start with, just without the final step not being vocalized. I expect this is why people are cuing into the typical responses for Nice Guy-type comments.

Yes, it is the thought process Nice Guys start with. No, that does not make it the same thing. People can cue in with typical advice, that is fine, but this advice seems accusatory in nature. I've seen this advice given in ways that don't make it seem like I'm being affronted by everyone.


That means that it's happened twice. Not that it's always happening. Please don't mistake "I saw/heard about it once!" for "It's what always happens."

It isn't what always happens. It doesn't need to always happen to make my being upset justified. It needs to be able to happen to make what I said true, and it has.


Please re-read my earlier post. I didn't say you had to display non-existent confidence. I said that you needed to develop that confidence, and then display it. Obviously, you can't do step 2 without step 1 (well, you can, but that's a separate issue, in the "fake it 'til you make it" camp), and step 1 without step 2 isn't enough - you need both.

I do not know how to develop my confidence. I greatly dislike me. Though not as much as I used to. Humorously, if I did as much as I used to I wouldn't be defending myself to the extent that I am.


The dissonance came from how you phrased it. Allow me to try to explain how I saw your earlier post again:
* I feel "abhorrent".
* If someone were to date me, it would only be out of pity.
* I ask girls out.
* I get turned down.
Now, look at the second bullet point. That says that if the girl said yes to your advance, you'd feel it was out of pity. Since someone dating you only out of pity would suck (based on my own beliefs and your implication), you can't win at the 4th point. Either you get turned down (current state of affairs) and are frustrated by that, or they say yes (your stated desire) out of pity (your implication) and will get frustrated by that. Your setting yourself up for failure here, unless there's something that you haven't gotten across.

Something I haven't gotten across. My fault. Someone giving me a chance would be out of pity. Hopefully at the point I could convince them that I'm worth it before we got into a relationship.


I'm going to have to agree with Aedilred. While the blame may not lie 100% with the single person, a lot of the reasons they are single does lie within the single person. In addition, you can't change how other people act/react (and neither can we), so there isn't a whole lot of benefit to focusing on the other side. All we can do is give you suggestions for how to correct where you might be going wrong, or start you thinking about how to take our ideas and run with them.

My therapist actually doesn't believe there is blame. That was a big thing we had to work on for a while, by the way. There isn't always blame for a situation. As said above, he thinks I'm getting unlucky. Certainly the confidence thing is detrimental, and he acknowledges it, as do I, but he does not believe that would stop all chance of relationships on its own.


The former will help with the latter. Focus on the former first. Once that's settled, then you can work on the latter (or discover that it may well have worked itself out). I'll also echo Aedilred here again: "Are you actually unlovable, or is it just easier to claim/believe that you are to justify your situation and reaction to it? The latter seems far more credible. If the former is actually true, then fixing it is a far more pressing problem than your relationship status. Have you brought that up with your therapist? It's beyond my competence to advise on really, but I'm as sure as I can be that your actually being intrinsically unlovable is not the case." I'll add this: remember that your therapist can only really help you if you're completely honest with them, and work hard to change yourself.

I am honest with my therapist and I have made progress that has been noticed by peers and my therapist. I am trying.


You don't have to be anti-social or asocial to not be getting out much. You can also have times where you don't feel like doing things with other people without being anti-social. Try to find 1 thing that you enjoy doing (that can be done with others), and do that. Talk with the people your doing that activity with. If they mention they're going somewhere afterwards, join them whenever you can. Make yourself talk to 1 new person each time you go. As time goes on, you'll notice that the things you had to force yourself to do at first (go at all, go regularly, talk to people, hang out outside of the main activity) become habitual and natural. Then push yourself to do a bit more. Whether it's within the same activity or a new one, expand your social circle. Just remember not to abandon the first one entirely if you start a new one :smallwink:


There are not that many activities available that I know of. I've been trying to talk to people when I go to the gym, I suppose, but I don't go to clubs or things. Again, college seems to be the best bet here.


Edit: theangel, I'll address your post too, but these can take a while and I don't want emotions to overwhelm responses.

[rogueboy]

So I would need to know the specific shortcomings to work on, basically, and they aren't addressed in the wall of advice that was given earlier because I don't have all the problems issued there, though as I have said repeatedly I do have no confidence.

I believe what most of us are saying is that your lack of confidence IS the specific (or at least A specific) shortcoming. Whether it's just being unlucky (as your therapist has suggested) or not, confidence is going to improve your results.

On a side note, my brother's (college) graduation speaker spoke about luck, and made some interesting points. Boiling out all the speech parts of it (largely because I don't remember much beyond it involving developing strains of wheat), her point was this: luck doesn't just happen. You make your own luck. If an opportunity presents itself and you take it (proactive), you can either get lucky (it worked) or not (it didn't). If you don't take it (passive), you can either get unlucky (it turned out great) or not (it didn't). The point being, you won't get lucky if you aren't trying to do better than the default state (which, for relationships, is doing exactly what you've always done).


I never said it didn't. However, as you pointed out above, I do blame intrinsic things because...well, I do think it's intrinsic. But I'm not just doing nothing. Last time I was at a venue where I met new people, specifically females, was about a week ago, and none of the new people seemed to be remotely interested in associating with me, guy and girl alike.

Question for you to think about (answer or don't, up to you): what is it about you that would make people (guy or girl) want to spend time with you? Be honest with yourself, and don't go with something simple like "I go to the gym." Lots of people do that, what makes you different from them? Remember that everyone has several interesting things about themselves (interesting can be good or bad, depending on your view), you need something to help you stand out.


That is, I feel, an unfair assumption. My attitude in this is, I guess, more like "They're *******s and can get relationships, so why can't I despite being broken?" It's not an "I'm better than them" thing, it's an "I'm also bad, but in different ways yet I still fail" thing.

The difference is that they aren't seeing themselves as broken. In their mind (at least), they aren't bad. So while you're thinking "I'm broken, but have redeeming qualities," they're thinking "I'm awesome!" Everything else being equal, would you want someone who opens with "I'm broken, but..." or "I'm awesome!"? To me, that's an easy choice.

Story time! I was diagnosed with high functioning Asperger's (high functioning autism) in late high school. For several years, I had the mental association of "I have Asperger's," which makes it a part of my identity. Making something a part of your identity makes it *really* hard for it not to start defining your identity. After a few years and working with a therapist, I shifted my mental association to "I'm a person with some aspects of Asperger's." The distinction being that my identity no longer included those Asperger's traits I didn't like about myself. When I told people I had been diagnosed with Asperger's, the general response was something along the lines of "I wouldn't have guessed, but I can see elements of it." With that (and continued work with a therapist), I was able to change my behaviors enough that when I recently told a friend that I was diagnosed with Asperger's, her response was "Really?!? I can't believe that!" Made my night, to be honest with you.

Point being: simple mental changes in how you think about aspects of yourself can allow you to make changes to those aspects you don't like.

Rather than thinking "I'm broken, but have redeeming qualities," try shifting it to "I'm awesome, even though I have flaws!" Once that becomes your default (it will take time), you'll find it easier to fix those flaws. (of course, then you'll find other flaws that you want to fix, but those won't be as significant. and so on and so forth until you're perfectly awesome)


Yes, it is the thought process Nice Guys start with. No, that does not make it the same thing. People can cue in with typical advice, that is fine, but this advice seems accusatory in nature. I've seen this advice given in ways that don't make it seem like I'm being affronted by everyone.

I suspect that part of why people wind up saying it in what comes across as an accusatory way is that, while it hasn't come up recently (that I can recall, anyway), there have been times where Nice Guys and why they *should* be successful has been the major topic for the better part of a month (from different people, always reigniting things that had kind of just been left alone since people were getting snippy). So it feels like a bit of a sore spot around here.


It isn't what always happens. It doesn't need to always happen to make my being upset justified. It needs to be able to happen to make what I said true, and it has.

And I mention one night stands because I don't see how jerks can get them, but you generally are a jerk to trick someone into a one night stand so it doesn't make sense to me.

The second quote is your original comment on ONS.

Yes, I will agree that anecdotal evidence means that it has happened. Although, as has been mentioned, intent and perceived intent do not always (or even often) match up. So while one party may see something as a betrayal, the other may not (semantic distinction in some cases, crucial distinction if you're going to make it personal dogma).

As an outside observer, here's what I see (from what you've said):
* Your friends went home with a guy at a bar, for what wound up being a ONS.
* Your friends didn't go into it as an ONS, and were hurt.
We have no indication that the guys they went home with were intending anything else (communication is a b**** when you're drunk), and thus no indication of whether it was an intentional deception, or a miscommunication, or simply changing one's mind.

Turning that into a blanket statement of "jerks lie to get ONS" is a dangerous road to go down.

** In rereading your posts just now, I'm not entirely sure this is what you intended to say, but it's how I (and, quite possibly, some others here) read it.


I do not know how to develop my confidence. I greatly dislike me. Though not as much as I used to. Humorously, if I did as much as I used to I wouldn't be defending myself to the extent that I am.

Confidence comes from being happy with yourself, despite the flaws that exist. Whether that's because you're able to avoid those flaws being an issue, or because you're working on them (whether actively or more generally) is dependent on the person and flaw.

Less tactfully: This is something that has been said multiple times by multiple people. Please make sure you're reading (and understanding) the entire sentence/paragraph where we say you need to develop confidence, and not just noticing that we're mentioning it and reacting to that.


Something I haven't gotten across. My fault. Someone giving me a chance would be out of pity. Hopefully at the point I could convince them that I'm worth it before we got into a relationship.

I can see the distinction you're trying to make, but it still seems shaky to me. Regardless, this is one of those examples of miscommunication - not out of intent, but out of a single piece of (important) information.


My therapist actually doesn't believe there is blame. That was a big thing we had to work on for a while, by the way. There isn't always blame for a situation. As said above, he thinks I'm getting unlucky. Certainly the confidence thing is detrimental, and he acknowledges it, as do I, but he does not believe that would stop all chance of relationships on its own.

Blame probably wasn't the best word to use, given its implications. Regardless, self-improvement is always a way to improve your luck (if you want to call it that) and confidence.


I am honest with my therapist and I have made progress that has been noticed by peers and my therapist. I am trying.

I didn't state it explicitly, but that's just my standard disclaimer regarding therapists. I didn't mean to imply you weren't, just reminding you to be sure you were.


There are not that many activities available that I know of. I've been trying to talk to people when I go to the gym, I suppose, but I don't go to clubs or things. Again, college seems to be the best bet here.

I can't speak to your interests and goals, but for me, the gym is not a place I'd want to be trying to connect with people, particularly. If there's a store that focuses on something you tend to like (board games, video games, books, etc), stop by at some point and ask them about events coming up (either that they're hosting or that they know of nearby). You probably know this, but things aren't going to just fall into your lap. If you let people know what you're looking for (networking!), people will start mentioning things as they hear of them. May not be instant, but it'll happen. Then you just need to hope it's something you actually want to do.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Wait a minute, you have no confidence, Silverrida? I know you aren't the most confident person, but what about when you're with me and the guys? Obviously we can't be with you all the time, but I'm sure if you wanted to try something out and needed a wingman-like assistant we could be of help. And what about when you're playing the clarinet? Everyone thinks you're amazing, even you have said you're pretty good. Perhaps you could find a way to use that to your advantage.

It should be noted I know Silverrida in person and am a pretty good friend. I am also on my iPhone, so please excuse any typos.

[Rawhide]

Rather than arguing about what specific people/questions meant, allow me to propose some generic questions that many people seem to ask about, without the negative connotations - perhaps we could create our own FAQ to answer questions like these for everyone visiting this thread. I'm going to phrase these questions as first person, male seeking female, as that makes things easier to understand than including every variation at every point - replace gender as applicable.

1) There are many guys out there that seem to act like "jerks", mistreating the women around them, sleeping around while in a seemingly committed relationship, treating women like objects, and/or only interested in getting in their pants/manipulating them to do so, while still having incredible luck in attracting women. What is it about these men that enables them to do so?

2) Without becoming a jerk myself, or doing any of the things I see as wrong with their behaviour, what can I do to emulate this success to attract someone I am interested in? What key elements from their success can I learn from?

3) After attracting a woman, what can I do to keep her interested, while still being respectful to her and without falling into any previously mentioned "jerky" traits?

4) I've been dating a woman for a while, or there is this woman who seems to be trying to ask me out, but I'm just not feeling it. I know that she's still really into me, what are the best ways to end it without hurting her feelings?

Etc.

[theangelJean]

Edit: theangel, I'll address your post too, but these can take a while and I don't want emotions to overwhelm responses.

I definitely understand that these things can take a while! But I'm sorry if I've stirred up negative emotions for you. I try hard to be matter-of-fact (because I'm used to being challenged) but this may not be the best approach when I'm challenging other people's beliefs.

[Serpentine]

Unrelated to the above, which I may get around to responding to eventually...

Asked a guy out at the start of the year. Got a friendly no due to "emotional complications". Found out later that he sort-of maybe not-quite had something going on with someone else, which I gather was the source of the "emotional complications". Just asked him how that was going, got a non-committal but fairly pessimistic answer - she's too busy, it seems.
Casually mention that my original invitation is still open y/n?
Disclaimer: I'm a coward so it'll probably be n regardless. Curious about everyone else's stances, though.

[Glass Mouse]

Unrelated to the above, which I may get around to responding to eventually...

Asked a guy out at the start of the year. Got a friendly no due to "emotional complications". Found out later that he sort-of maybe not-quite had something going on with someone else, which I gather was the source of the "emotional complications". Just asked him how that was going, got a non-committal but fairly pessimistic answer - she's too busy, it seems.
Casually mention that my original invitation is still open y/n?
Disclaimer: I'm a coward so it'll probably be n regardless. Curious about everyone else's stances, though.

Y. It's worth a try, even if the most likely answer is no :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

I'd say, Yes. But I'd have been a Bad Ideas Bear on your shoulder whispering to you to tell him that you're not busy when he mentioned that things had fallen through because she was too busy.

I'm still going to be a bad ideas bear and tell you to work that into letting him know you're interested. :smalltongue:

[Taffimai]

Unrelated to the above, which I may get around to responding to eventually...

Asked a guy out at the start of the year. Got a friendly no due to "emotional complications". Found out later that he sort-of maybe not-quite had something going on with someone else, which I gather was the source of the "emotional complications". Just asked him how that was going, got a non-committal but fairly pessimistic answer - she's too busy, it seems.
Casually mention that my original invitation is still open y/n?
Disclaimer: I'm a coward so it'll probably be n regardless. Curious about everyone else's stances, though.

I'm a no. If I were in his shoes, I'd be very put off by someone who keeps pushing, even though I've made it clear that my mind is otherwise occupied. Wait until he's put it behind him.

[Serpentine]

If I did, it's be very much a very casual in passing "well, my original offer still stands if you want it. And now, moving on..." sorta thing (and the original offer itself was a "once-off no strings attached date for funsies", so already al low-pressure as I could make it). But yeah, that was a concern of mine.

[Coidzor]

It's also been about 6 months too, right? So if it wasn't really pressed since then, it seems like there's a bit more leeway as well so long as Serpentine doesn't do anything that would seem out of character for her to do anyway. Maybe? :smallconfused:

Don't really seem like you'll do something stupid and panic and shove your foot into your mouth while backpedaling away from the overture, for instance. Or be overbearing about it.

[Glass Mouse]

It's also been about 6 months too, right? So if it wasn't really pressed since then, it seems like there's a bit more leeway as well so long as Serpentine doesn't do anything that would seem out of character for her to do anyway. Maybe? :smallconfused:

This was my reasoning, too. If he had just said "No, I don't like you like that/won't ruin the friendship/whatever", I would advise against asking him out again (possible exceptions made if he has recently started flirting heavily or the like).

But he did say "No, not right now because Reasons". While that is usually code for "No, not ever", it is certainly not unreasonable to take him on his word. Waiting until Reasons are gone does show respect for his situation, and as long as it's done in the spirit of "hey, just to let you know," instead of "Reasons are gone, NOW will you date me?!", I don't see the problem.

[The Succubus]

I'm not very good at these "Relationship" dealies, so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

I'd go with a "maybe" for my answer. If life offers you the chance for a little happiness or fun, then it's generally a good idea to act on it, provided it adheres to your own moral standards. With your friend, I'd give it just a teensy while longer before giving him a nudge. It sounds as though things aren't completely wrapped with regards to the girl he's been seeing thus far. If he finishes it completely and then you put forward your offer, you'll both enjoy what follows a lot more because it won't have any doubts or guilts attached with it. :smallsmile:

[Jon_Dahl]

I would say that wait a few more months. Six months is probably not enough for a person to overcome emotional complications. These things take more time. You have waited 6 months; you can wait at least three months more. Use this time to evaluate the situation.

[Aedilred]

I would say that wait a few more months. Six months is probably not enough for a person to overcome emotional complications. These things take more time. You have waited 6 months; you can wait at least three months more. Use this time to evaluate the situation.That's very much an individual thing, though. With some people, six months - even one month - is more than enough time; with others, it can be years. I know I have missed opportunities in the past by waiting what seems to me to be a reasonable amount of time for people to recover from emotional complications/distress/whatever, only for them to be snapped up by someone else long before I would have assumed it appropriate to take any action.

Judging the appropriate period to wait is probably something Serp has to do herself.

In answer to the original situation, I'm a hesitant y; I almost certainly wouldn't say anything myself, but I'd regret not doing so and am a coward, etc.. I don't think any harm can come of it in this situation. Obviously, if he says no again, then leave it alone forever.

[BeethroBudkin07]

After some thinking, here's some stuff that came out of my brain and may be causing me anguish...

So basically, my friend used to be in the same situation I was: getting rejected by all the girls he had a crush on. But recently he got a girlfriend. And it wasn't even someone he initially had a crush on; in fact it was she who had an eye on him. But after being convinced to give her a chance, he did, and they've been happily together ever since. Now, this has led me to believe that I'll only end up having a girlfriend when I find out that someone has feelings for me, since I don't seem to be able to get anybody else to reciprocate feelings I may have for them, nor do I even begin to grasp how that could happen. It doesn't help that I may be so desperate that I might end up wanting to be with someone who loves me, which could make me overlook any flaws they may have... this is obviously not a very good thing.

At the moment of speaking, I'm in my school's comic drawing club, and there's no shortage of girls there, so I'm hoping one day I'll find someone in there who makes for a good match. However, I don't exactly have much of a presence. My friend who is much more outgoing and has a tendency to speak his mind and not really think twice, whereas I am more timid, and while I do say a few things, for the most part they are reactions to key-words I hear and making stupid references which mostly fall on deaf ears. Otherwise, I remain in my little corner, just watching others talk. That's not exactly the most effective way to get noticed by potential mates...

Oh yeah, I'm also diagnosed with high-functioning autism, so while I do tend to be remarkably smart and creative, I have a hard time investing myself into interests that aren't strictly related to one I may have. So for me to be able to really get invested into a conversation, it would probably have to be something I really care about. Sadly, right now that seems to be limited to internet videos, games, movies and music. For the latter two, I'm much more open in terms of taste, so I might be able to talk about movies or songs or artists I don't know. However, when people talk about a subject I have no clue about, I usually clock out. This happens often when my friends start blabbing about LoL, for example, which happens fairly often.

There's also this thing about me where I feel like if I don't contribute anything to something, then I don't matter. This used to not be a problem, since I wrote stories for most of my high school groups and gained much admiration from my peers through them. But now I feel like I'm "all washed up", as the cop movie cliché goes. I don't write stories anymore, and my webcomic is steadily not getting worked on due to general incompetence and procrastination. I've tried writing stories about the comic book club I'm in, but I haven't really found the motivation to get much work done on those. Instead, I'm wasting whole days on the Internet, going through the same few sites over and over as if that somehow accomplished something.

The above mostly contributes to a feeling of being uninteresting. After all, who would want a guy who does nothing but... well, nothing? If I may be self-depreciative for a second, I'm pretty much a quiet shy kid who spends most of his free time doing jack squat and can't get anything done, and who also has a hard time caring about interests exclusive to his... What a catch, amirite? :v

I also don't think I have any ability to be spontaneous whatsoever. This is mostly because I can't tell how someone would react to something, so I'd have to always ask "Do you mind if I do this?" and whatnot, and I would have a hard time trying to find something the other person likes for sure unless they specifically expressed interest in it beforehand. And due to my constant doubtful nature, I'd have a hard time making a statement like "I will be forever with you" since I couldn't know for sure if that were true or not. Yes, it does make the other person really happy, but I'd be afraid of just making an empty statement and later breaking it. Yeah, I'm such a romantic! :smalltongue:

Well, I guess what I'm asking for is some thoughts on what you think of this pile of words. Is there something wrong in the way I perceive things? And is there a way to make any changes for the better here? Or am I doomed to never have any company but that of annoying fruit flies whenever I step outside?
There's much more that troubles my mind pertaining to this situation, but I don't want to make this post any larger than it is already.

Thanks in advance!
-BeethroBudkin07

[Sajiri]

After some thinking, here's some stuff that came out of my brain and may be causing me anguish...

So basically, my friend used to be in the same situation I was: getting rejected by all the girls he had a crush on. But recently he got a girlfriend. And it wasn't even someone he initially had a crush on; in fact it was she who had an eye on him. But after being convinced to give her a chance, he did, and they've been happily together ever since. Now, this has led me to believe that I'll only end up having a girlfriend when I find out that someone has feelings for me, since I don't seem to be able to get anybody else to reciprocate feelings I may have for them, nor do I even begin to grasp how that could happen. It doesn't help that I may be so desperate that I might end up wanting to be with someone who loves me, which could make me overlook any flaws they may have... this is obviously not a very good thing.

At the moment of speaking, I'm in my school's comic drawing club, and there's no shortage of girls there, so I'm hoping one day I'll find someone in there who makes for a good match. However, I don't exactly have much of a presence. My friend who is much more outgoing and has a tendency to speak his mind and not really think twice, whereas I am more timid, and while I do say a few things, for the most part they are reactions to key-words I hear and making stupid references which mostly fall on deaf ears. Otherwise, I remain in my little corner, just watching others talk. That's not exactly the most effective way to get noticed by potential mates...

Oh yeah, I'm also diagnosed with high-functioning autism, so while I do tend to be remarkably smart and creative, I have a hard time investing myself into interests that aren't strictly related to one I may have. So for me to be able to really get invested into a conversation, it would probably have to be something I really care about. Sadly, right now that seems to be limited to internet videos, games, movies and music. For the latter two, I'm much more open in terms of taste, so I might be able to talk about movies or songs or artists I don't know. However, when people talk about a subject I have no clue about, I usually clock out. This happens often when my friends start blabbing about LoL, for example, which happens fairly often.

There's also this thing about me where I feel like if I don't contribute anything to something, then I don't matter. This used to not be a problem, since I wrote stories for most of my high school groups and gained much admiration from my peers through them. But now I feel like I'm "all washed up", as the cop movie cliché goes. I don't write stories anymore, and my webcomic is steadily not getting worked on due to general incompetence and procrastination. I've tried writing stories about the comic book club I'm in, but I haven't really found the motivation to get much work done on those. Instead, I'm wasting whole days on the Internet, going through the same few sites over and over as if that somehow accomplished something.

The above mostly contributes to a feeling of being uninteresting. After all, who would want a guy who does nothing but... well, nothing? If I may be self-depreciative for a second, I'm pretty much a quiet shy kid who spends most of his free time doing jack squat and can't get anything done, and who also has a hard time caring about interests exclusive to his... What a catch, amirite? :v

I also don't think I have any ability to be spontaneous whatsoever. This is mostly because I can't tell how someone would react to something, so I'd have to always ask "Do you mind if I do this?" and whatnot, and I would have a hard time trying to find something the other person likes for sure unless they specifically expressed interest in it beforehand. And due to my constant doubtful nature, I'd have a hard time making a statement like "I will be forever with you" since I couldn't know for sure if that were true or not. Yes, it does make the other person really happy, but I'd be afraid of just making an empty statement and later breaking it. Yeah, I'm such a romantic! :smalltongue:

Well, I guess what I'm asking for is some thoughts on what you think of this pile of words. Is there something wrong in the way I perceive things? And is there a way to make any changes for the better here? Or am I doomed to never have any company but that of annoying fruit flies whenever I step outside?
There's much more that troubles my mind pertaining to this situation, but I don't want to make this post any larger than it is already.

Thanks in advance!
-BeethroBudkin07

Alright, I'm finally going to try to contribute to this thread.

I think you should stop focusing so much on your perceived flaws. I can relate to some things you say, like the washed up feeling with your stories and webcomic. If you let yourself feel that way, you'll get stuck in that mindset. Forgetting about things like that for a while and letting it just come to you when you're ready helps a lot I think.

Likewise, if you tell yourself 'Im not much of a catch' well..you can't expect someone to just come along and tell you to give them a chance if you don't even see the good in you. Desperation doesn't help much either. I don't know how you might approach girls, but if you come across that you are desperate or just 'want a girlfriend' rather than 'want this girl in particular to be your girlfriend' well, its not a particularly attractive option.

I am sure that someone could give a better response than me, but my advice is to not think so negative about yourself to start with. Make a list of all your good qualities and add to it as you get more confident.

Now offtopic to this, I felt a little guilty after getting a message in my inbox today by a certain someone checking in on me since I guess I disappeared after talking about my marriage issues a few pages back. Well, to give an update...

I've been gradually trying to work up the courage to talk to my husband more and put my foot down on the way he's talked to me. We've..managed to talk about some things, and just last night he even said he'd like for us to discuss more over the next few nights (so I don't get so overwhelmed/stressed trying to work out everything at once). I've done a lot of thinking on how we came to this point, and Im having trouble bringing up certain things to him that I just keep to myself, but I might address that and ask for advice later. I'd rather give Beethro's post more time to be addressed by others first.

[Philemonite]

Sajiri, I am glad you things are getting better.

Beethro, you might want to read last few pages. I think Silverrida has similar problems, so most of the advice given to him can apply to you.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I am a pathetic sack of ****.

So, I watched The Place Beyond The Pines today. Long story short, it made me depressed. I was also feeling nostalgic at the end of the movie, due to events easier that day. Usually I enjoy nostalgia, but coupled with the mild depression, it was awful. I texted my girlfriend the second I got home because I needed someone to talk to. I ended up spilling my guts, and went over all the awful moments in my Senior year.

One of these moments was right before we started going out and she made out with this guy right in front of me when she knew I liked her. We have never talked about that event, as it's sort of awkward and we would rather both fleet it, but it was really eating at me, and telling her about it made me feel better.

However, it made her feel awful, and she became somewhat worried I was going to break up with her. Something I have no plan of doing. Thankfully I was able to communicate I have no intention in doing that, but she is still really upset I brought it up. Apparently she feels awful about it herself, and while that's comforting, I feel awful that I brought it up.

Also, her birthday is July 4th and I won't be with her because of vacation. She handles distance horribly. I also have no clue what to get her. :smallsigh:

As I said, I am a pathetic sack of ****.

[Coidzor]

Write her a poem about how you feel, preferably full of purple prose (though how you're supposed to get prose into poetry I can never remember), and send it to her via text message, one line at a time?

[Hattish Thing]

Aaah. Ah. Ha... Ow. I... Um. Okay. I am kinda in need to talk to someone about advice on how to deal win a breakup after a long relationship. I really would like company and advice. Is there anyone willing to talk to me? Please? Please.

[Coidzor]

Aaah. Ah. Ha... Ow. I... Um. Okay. I am kinda in need to talk to someone about advice on how to deal win a breakup after a long relationship. I really would like company and advice. Is there anyone willing to talk to me? Please? Please.

Company is definitely a good start. Investing more heavily into your hobbies and other things you love is a good move too, or at least, in my case, ending my last engagement basically killed writing for me as a hobby and I'm still trying to get into it again.

[Arcanist]

I figured I matter as well tell how my is going thus far story, otherwise it'll just keep bothering me.


Anyway, so a couple of days ago I was heading over to my friends place to hang out with her. SO! I asked my brother to drop me off since he needed the car for the rest of the day and I could spend the entire day at her place, alone (very subtle). While driving there we get into a crash because my brother was going down a hill too fast and swerved out of control so we did a head on collision at about 40mph.

Luckily me, my brother and everyone else involved in the crash was perfectly fine. Nothing more painful than a few scraps, bruises, a few sleepless nights and some days where I just won't stop thinking about my life and all that crap (but I did get painkillers despite feeling perfectly fine so win, right?). ANYWAY! So she offers to come to my place the day after, but has to cancel and this continues for the next couple days until today. It feels like she slowly creeped away from me in just a span of days and I really don't know what to even do anymore. Every time I tell her I'm coming over she calls me up and yells at me to not come over. So I'm kind of at a crossroad.

I've nobody in real life to talk to about my feelings and the people that claim they'll listen don't really give a damn. Maybe I'm being melodramatic about this whole thing and jumping to conclusions, but lately everything just feels so god damn empty.

[Jon_Dahl]

A few days is much too short time to draw any conclusions. Give it a bit more time. Maybe she's just busy with her life.
Be patient and stay in contact with her. After a while you could ask her to have a serious conversation with you. Then tell her about your feelings and ask her how she feels.

I'm happy to hear that you didn't get injured. That sounded like a very serious collision.

[Aedilred]

Aaah. Ah. Ha... Ow. I... Um. Okay. I am kinda in need to talk to someone about advice on how to deal win a breakup after a long relationship. I really would like company and advice. Is there anyone willing to talk to me? Please? Please.
This is something of which I have experience, but I don't think I dealt with it terribly well, so I don't know how much useful advice I can offer. If that doesn't put you off you're welcome to PM me... you have my greatest sympathies in any case.

[WarKitty]

So this is going to be a long thought-dump, not sure how much I'm asking for advice and how much I'm just whining about society.

I finally have it - the sort of relationship I really want. At least one of them. And I know it can't last. Why? Not because there's anything wrong with either of us, but because we're not romantic partners. I'm not his girlfriend; he's not my boyfriend. He wants a wife and kids someday. What'll happen to our cuddles and hugs and nights curled up talking then? I'm just an old roommate after all, and he's a guy and I'm a girl.

It frustrates me. It frustrates me knowing that most people won't be able to see our relationship as it is. He's a guy, I'm a girl, the relationship must be sexual. It frustrates me knowing that people assume we're a romantic couple every time we go somewhere. It frustrates both of us because it looks like we're "cheating" if we want to talk to a potential romantic target. It frustrates me because it slaps the "heterosexual" label on me. And ittathfrustrates me most of all there really is just no way to keep a relationship I value so dearly without my being a threat to any potential partner.

It's a deep, intimate, valuable relationship - but one that lacks any social standing or respect. One that we can't really talk about without people nodding and winking because the reality of it is just too hard to believe. And one that time and distance are probably going to tear apart, because "just good friends" isn't a real status in our society.

[Taet]

Tolkien called it a fellowship.

[noparlpf]

So this is going to be a long thought-dump, not sure how much I'm asking for advice and how much I'm just whining about society.

I finally have it - the sort of relationship I really want. At least one of them. And I know it can't last. Why? Not because there's anything wrong with either of us, but because we're not romantic partners. I'm not his girlfriend; he's not my boyfriend. He wants a wife and kids someday. What'll happen to our cuddles and hugs and nights curled up talking then? I'm just an old roommate after all, and he's a guy and I'm a girl.

It frustrates me. It frustrates me knowing that most people won't be able to see our relationship as it is. He's a guy, I'm a girl, the relationship must be sexual. It frustrates me knowing that people assume we're a romantic couple every time we go somewhere. It frustrates both of us because it looks like we're "cheating" if we want to talk to a potential romantic target. It frustrates me because it slaps the "heterosexual" label on me. And ittathfrustrates me most of all there really is just no way to keep a relationship I value so dearly without my being a threat to any potential partner.

It's a deep, intimate, valuable relationship - but one that lacks any social standing or respect. One that we can't really talk about without people nodding and winking because the reality of it is just too hard to believe. And one that time and distance are probably going to tear apart, because "just good friends" isn't a real status in our society.

It might be different where you are, but I'm only in university and it's already understood (at least by anybody I might be interested in talking to) that people can have opposite-sex non-romantic/sexual friendships. Some of my closest friends are girls. Just don't bother with whichever people think that you must be sleeping together or whatever. If somebody asks "is that your boyfriend" say "what? no, of course not" with the most shocked expression you can muster. That's what I do when people assume the only reason I'd drive three hours to visit a girl is because we're dating.

[Jallorn]

So this is going to be a long thought-dump, not sure how much I'm asking for advice and how much I'm just whining about society.

I finally have it - the sort of relationship I really want. At least one of them. And I know it can't last. Why? Not because there's anything wrong with either of us, but because we're not romantic partners. I'm not his girlfriend; he's not my boyfriend. He wants a wife and kids someday. What'll happen to our cuddles and hugs and nights curled up talking then? I'm just an old roommate after all, and he's a guy and I'm a girl.

It frustrates me. It frustrates me knowing that most people won't be able to see our relationship as it is. He's a guy, I'm a girl, the relationship must be sexual. It frustrates me knowing that people assume we're a romantic couple every time we go somewhere. It frustrates both of us because it looks like we're "cheating" if we want to talk to a potential romantic target. It frustrates me because it slaps the "heterosexual" label on me. And ittathfrustrates me most of all there really is just no way to keep a relationship I value so dearly without my being a threat to any potential partner.

It's a deep, intimate, valuable relationship - but one that lacks any social standing or respect. One that we can't really talk about without people nodding and winking because the reality of it is just too hard to believe. And one that time and distance are probably going to tear apart, because "just good friends" isn't a real status in our society.

There are people out there who understand such non-traditional relationships. I know, I've met a few. They don't generally broadcast it in public, but there are places, such as Fetlife, where you can find people who will understand, if that's something that you want to go looking for.

[The Succubus]

Heh. It's so strange, isn't it? People are absolutely fine with concepts like casual sex and f***buddies, pardon my crudeness but platonic cuddling, which sounds really delightful to me, seems to cause the brain equivalent of a divide by zero error.

[Coidzor]

There are people out there who understand such non-traditional relationships. I know, I've met a few. They don't generally broadcast it in public, but there are places, such as Fetlife, where you can find people who will understand, if that's something that you want to go looking for.

Well that's delightfully incongruous. Fetlife for something divorced from both sexuality and romance. hruh.


Heh. It's so strange, isn't it? People are absolutely fine with concepts like casual sex and f***buddies, pardon my crudeness but platonic cuddling, which sounds really delightful to me, seems to cause the brain equivalent of a divide by zero error.

I find the number of people who just straight up lie and use "platonic cuddling" as a ruse explains the inability to grok someone actually telling the truth to a certain extent, especially with younger people since there's that element of not knowing one's arse from one's elbow that so commonly crops up if one makes the mistake of prying into the personal lives of others.

Throw in people who aren't asexual doing things with one another that should arouse themselves even if they weren't especially into one another...

[Feytalist]

Well. I have a friend like that. One of my best friends We do all the usual relationship-stuff without actually being in a relationship (without the, you know, bedroom stuff). And she actually has a boyfriend, who seems to not mind about all that. I've never met the guy, though. Hmm. We live far apart, though, and only see each other about once a year if we're lucky.

When people see us together, they do tend to assume we're dating. I just ignore it, and she couldn't care less either way. Like the saying goes: a person may be smart; people are stupid.

So yeah, some people do understand. I guess it doesn't help you much, though. :/

[Jon_Dahl]

Life is so complicated sometimes.

I met a very nice African artist in a plane. We talked throughout the flight and he invited me to see his gallery, which is close to my city. He speaks my third language and I know a girl here in my city who loves this language and maybe she would like to see the gallery too. I was thinking that I could ask her to see the gallery with me and she could perhaps speak with the artist too.

The problem here is that I have a thing for this girl and I'm not in a happy relationship with my current girlfriend. My girlfriend is traveling right now. She just said "byebye" for one month and disappeared. After a long consideration, I can't contact this girl and go out with her if I have feelings for her and I'm still in a relationship with another woman. I don't know how this girl feels about me, but I'm unsure if she likes me non-platonic way.

This was a very tough call for me. I hope it was the right choice.

[Coidzor]

I'd have asked her to accompany you in a non-romantic sense unless doing so would have been too cumbersome and then I would have just told her about the meeting and the gallery and when I was planning to go in case she was interested in carpooling to check it out or just checking it out with someone else, potentially a small group if anyone else would be interested.

But I'd probably have the wrong instincts there. Granted, if the woman I was dating just said goodbye and then disappeared for over a month with no contact I'd assume that I'd just been dumped and send a formal declaration of my understanding of such given her conduct after about a week or two. So, given what I know of your situation, I'd say that you were most likely single, just never formally dumped, so as long as you formally recognize the split...

[Jon_Dahl]

Thank you for the advice Coidzor. Reading your message I see that I should clarify the situation a bit:
She has done this before (several times) and she writes me short messages with her cell phone. Maybe "disappeared" wasn't the best choice of words, but I meant that she went away, out of sight, and has minimal contact with me by sending short e-mails every now and then. She also demands that I write her every day and that I use words that she likes. For instance, if I use the word "you", she'll get sad. I'm allowed to write "you" in her own language, though, but not in English. It's a bit difficult to write anything to anyone without using the word "you" at all...

Other than writing e-mails every day, I'm enjoying my life here at the moment. She'll be back soon, as always.

[Form]

If two people act the way most people act when they're in a relationship then I don't think it's strange for most folks to assume they're dating, because most of the time that is actually the case. If you don't want to conform to traditional relationship standards then that's fine and I suppose you shouldn't be judged for it, but don't fault people simply for making a perfectly reasonable assumption that is usually true.

[WarKitty]

If two people act the way most people act when they're in a relationship then I don't think it's strange for most folks to assume they're dating, because most of the time that is actually the case. If you don't want to conform to traditional relationship standards then that's fine and I suppose you shouldn't be judged for it, but don't fault people simply for making a perfectly reasonable assumption that is usually true.

I don't mind too much if we're out together that people assume we're together - although it bugs me when contrasted with if I were out with my preferred romantic partner, knowing that people would NOT assume we were a dating couple. That's not what really bothers me. What bothers more is that it seems this assumption persists beyond anything we might say - no amount of "we're not in a romantic relationship" seems to change people's assumption that we're in a romantic relationship. And that's what really worries me, because I know neither of us would want to look like we're cheating. And I understand that most potential romantic partners would be extremely uncomfortable with our relationship.

It also bugs me saying that we're "just friends", you know? Not that we aren't friends, but the idea that it's "just" a friendship. That being a friendship is seen as a lesser relationship than a romantic relationship would be, and that if one of us were to seek a romantic relationship the automatic assumption would be that the friendship would have to change. That's what I meant by the relationship not being supported - when dealing with people who do believe us that it's a friendship and not a romantic relationship, there's the automatic assumption that makes the relationship less important or less worthy of preservation.

[Jallorn]

Well that's delightfully incongruous. Fetlife for something divorced from both sexuality and romance. hruh.

Not so much as you might think. In most cases, understanding the absence of a thing is as important as understanding its presence, and when you deal in non-traditionality, you either develop a deeper and broader understanding than most people, or you end up pretty jaded and lonely.

I also wouldn't call it divorced of sexuality and romance, more negative sexuality and romance. It's "the traditional, minus," as opposed to Fetlife's more common, "traditional, plus," or, "just straight up nontraditional." It's a deviation, which, ultimately, is what Fetlife is about, deviation from the norm. At least as i see it.

[Coidzor]

Thank you for the advice Coidzor. Reading your message I see that I should clarify the situation a bit:
She has done this before (several times) and she writes me short messages with her cell phone. Maybe "disappeared" wasn't the best choice of words, but I meant that she went away, out of sight, and has minimal contact with me by sending short e-mails every now and then. She also demands that I write her every day and that I use words that she likes. For instance, if I use the word "you", she'll get sad. I'm allowed to write "you" in her own language, though, but not in English. It's a bit difficult to write anything to anyone without using the word "you" at all...

Other than writing e-mails every day, I'm enjoying my life here at the moment. She'll be back soon, as always.

Huh. Sounds like an abusive expletive. :smallconfused:

[Admiral Squish]

So, I was just wondering, relationship thread, have any of you tried Soulgeek? If so, is it any good, as a service?

[Coidzor]

It's kind of impressive how quickly one can go from thinking that one is OK to realizing just how messed up one really is.

What a piece of work is a man...

Also, it's interesting to envy asexuals and aromantics for not having any of the desires I do, since I appear to have come to regard love, sexual interest, and romantic interest as decidedly negative things that only lead to further frustration and self-loathing for having felt them. Or wanted to.

I hate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EddX9hnhDS4)myself for not being able to get over her, especially because there's never been a voice, even inside myself really, that doesn't unanimously cry out that liking her is wrong. That simply harboring the feelings that I do has poisoned our relationship due to a stready tide of negativity flowing from me because I wanted more than my due. I hate myself even more for not being able to bring myself to end it, to say words that I don't mean and are unforgivable just to end it without having to tell the truth. Or worse, to tell the truth and say words that are even more unforgivable.

I hate myself for having come to a place where I view things that should be positive, uplifting things that used to be what made life worth living now cause me to cringe at the suggestion that I might be on the path to feeling them. That seeing love between others first makes me cringe, nauseated and then fills me with regret which only serves to lead to rage at feeling regret and being broken.

I hate that I have no one else to blame but myself, even as I want to blame the people whom the specters of the past are based upon for haunting my thoughts and force myself not to in order to at least avoid that form of delusion.


After some thinking, here's some stuff that came out of my brain and may be causing me anguish...

So basically, my friend used to be in the same situation I was: getting rejected by all the girls he had a crush on. But recently he got a girlfriend. And it wasn't even someone he initially had a crush on; in fact it was she who had an eye on him. But after being convinced to give her a chance, he did, and they've been happily together ever since. Now, this has led me to believe that I'll only end up having a girlfriend when I find out that someone has feelings for me, since I don't seem to be able to get anybody else to reciprocate feelings I may have for them, nor do I even begin to grasp how that could happen. It doesn't help that I may be so desperate that I might end up wanting to be with someone who loves me, which could make me overlook any flaws they may have... this is obviously not a very good thing.

At the moment of speaking, I'm in my school's comic drawing club, and there's no shortage of girls there, so I'm hoping one day I'll find someone in there who makes for a good match. However, I don't exactly have much of a presence. My friend who is much more outgoing and has a tendency to speak his mind and not really think twice, whereas I am more timid, and while I do say a few things, for the most part they are reactions to key-words I hear and making stupid references which mostly fall on deaf ears. Otherwise, I remain in my little corner, just watching others talk. That's not exactly the most effective way to get noticed by potential mates...

Oh yeah, I'm also diagnosed with high-functioning autism, so while I do tend to be remarkably smart and creative, I have a hard time investing myself into interests that aren't strictly related to one I may have. So for me to be able to really get invested into a conversation, it would probably have to be something I really care about. Sadly, right now that seems to be limited to internet videos, games, movies and music. For the latter two, I'm much more open in terms of taste, so I might be able to talk about movies or songs or artists I don't know. However, when people talk about a subject I have no clue about, I usually clock out. This happens often when my friends start blabbing about LoL, for example, which happens fairly often.

There's also this thing about me where I feel like if I don't contribute anything to something, then I don't matter. This used to not be a problem, since I wrote stories for most of my high school groups and gained much admiration from my peers through them. But now I feel like I'm "all washed up", as the cop movie cliché goes. I don't write stories anymore, and my webcomic is steadily not getting worked on due to general incompetence and procrastination. I've tried writing stories about the comic book club I'm in, but I haven't really found the motivation to get much work done on those. Instead, I'm wasting whole days on the Internet, going through the same few sites over and over as if that somehow accomplished something.

The above mostly contributes to a feeling of being uninteresting. After all, who would want a guy who does nothing but... well, nothing? If I may be self-depreciative for a second, I'm pretty much a quiet shy kid who spends most of his free time doing jack squat and can't get anything done, and who also has a hard time caring about interests exclusive to his... What a catch, amirite? :v

I also don't think I have any ability to be spontaneous whatsoever. This is mostly because I can't tell how someone would react to something, so I'd have to always ask "Do you mind if I do this?" and whatnot, and I would have a hard time trying to find something the other person likes for sure unless they specifically expressed interest in it beforehand. And due to my constant doubtful nature, I'd have a hard time making a statement like "I will be forever with you" since I couldn't know for sure if that were true or not. Yes, it does make the other person really happy, but I'd be afraid of just making an empty statement and later breaking it. Yeah, I'm such a romantic! :smalltongue:

Well, I guess what I'm asking for is some thoughts on what you think of this pile of words. Is there something wrong in the way I perceive things? And is there a way to make any changes for the better here? Or am I doomed to never have any company but that of annoying fruit flies whenever I step outside?
There's much more that troubles my mind pertaining to this situation, but I don't want to make this post any larger than it is already.

Thanks in advance!
-BeethroBudkin07

I'll let ya'll know when I find a good strategy for forming positive habits and breaking negative ones. IIRC, how to win friends and influence people is one of those books on the subject of conversation and interpersonal communication which is actually pretty useful, though there are other worthwhile materials, and interpersonal communication is a learned skill and one that most people can set out to learn and make progress with even if they didn't pick it all up as children. It's been fairly widely recommended, including in earlier incarnations of this thread by people who knew their kit, though I've never actually gotten around to dusting it off yet.

If you can't do a bit of internet detox and start setting up new habits and structure that fosters focusing on your hobbies and interests, then you may need to avail yourself of other resources, your school may have some aid they can provide or point you toward, for instance. But, at the end of the day, you've got to be happy with yourself to be happy with a partner.


I figured I matter as well tell how my is going thus far story, otherwise it'll just keep bothering me.


Anyway, so a couple of days ago I was heading over to my friends place to hang out with her. SO! I asked my brother to drop me off since he needed the car for the rest of the day and I could spend the entire day at her place, alone (very subtle). While driving there we get into a crash because my brother was going down a hill too fast and swerved out of control so we did a head on collision at about 40mph.

Luckily me, my brother and everyone else involved in the crash was perfectly fine. Nothing more painful than a few scraps, bruises, a few sleepless nights and some days where I just won't stop thinking about my life and all that crap (but I did get painkillers despite feeling perfectly fine so win, right?). ANYWAY! So she offers to come to my place the day after, but has to cancel and this continues for the next couple days until today. It feels like she slowly creeped away from me in just a span of days and I really don't know what to even do anymore. Every time I tell her I'm coming over she calls me up and yells at me to not come over. So I'm kind of at a crossroad.

I've nobody in real life to talk to about my feelings and the people that claim they'll listen don't really give a damn. Maybe I'm being melodramatic about this whole thing and jumping to conclusions, but lately everything just feels so god damn empty.

I'd give her a couple more days and probably ask if everything was alright first before deciding she wanted shut of me, I must admit. Actually probably would have asked if everything was alright after the second time in a short period that she made plans with me and then bailed.


So, I was just wondering, relationship thread, have any of you tried Soulgeek? If so, is it any good, as a service?

No help here, sorry.


Not so much as you might think. In most cases, understanding the absence of a thing is as important as understanding its presence, and when you deal in non-traditionality, you either develop a deeper and broader understanding than most people, or you end up pretty jaded and lonely.

I also wouldn't call it divorced of sexuality and romance, more negative sexuality and romance. It's "the traditional, minus," as opposed to Fetlife's more common, "traditional, plus," or, "just straight up nontraditional." It's a deviation, which, ultimately, is what Fetlife is about, deviation from the norm. At least as i see it.

I can't fathom it in the first place granted, so I suppose it's at least plausible that this deficiency on my part precludes me from seeing how that's anything other than a semantic difference between divorced from and traditional, minus.

What do I know though? Nothing. And my name isn't even Jon Snow. :smallsigh:

[Chen]

It also bugs me saying that we're "just friends", you know? Not that we aren't friends, but the idea that it's "just" a friendship. That being a friendship is seen as a lesser relationship than a romantic relationship would be, and that if one of us were to seek a romantic relationship the automatic assumption would be that the friendship would have to change. That's what I meant by the relationship not being supported - when dealing with people who do believe us that it's a friendship and not a romantic relationship, there's the automatic assumption that makes the relationship less important or less worthy of preservation.

Individuals value things differently. The main problem here is that the vast majority of people DO value a romantic relationship more than a platonic one. Presumably if you wanted to maintain the current friendship along with a romantic one you'd want someone who is open to that type of thing. Jealousy is a difficult emotion to deal with, which is what I presume is the biggest problem most romantic partners would have with the friendship you have going.

[WarKitty]

Individuals value things differently. The main problem here is that the vast majority of people DO value a romantic relationship more than a platonic one. Presumably if you wanted to maintain the current friendship along with a romantic one you'd want someone who is open to that type of thing. Jealousy is a difficult emotion to deal with, which is what I presume is the biggest problem most romantic partners would have with the friendship you have going.

Yeah. I guess that's sort of my original thing - I feel like we're trapped in the idea that a guy and a girl can't be "just friends", or if they are it can't be a serious important relationship. So obviously if we're close we must be sleeping together, or want to sleep together, or want to sleep together and are in denial about it, or something. Which means our relationship is a threat to any romantic partner. Right.

Sometimes I wish we could just fake some records, you know? Tell people we're cousins or something. No one objects then.

[Coidzor]

Yeah. I guess that's sort of my original thing - I feel like we're trapped in the idea that a guy and a girl can't be "just friends", or if they are it can't be a serious important relationship. So obviously if we're close we must be sleeping together, or want to sleep together, or want to sleep together and are in denial about it, or something. Which means our relationship is a threat to any romantic partner. Right.

Sometimes I wish we could just fake some records, you know? Tell people we're cousins or something. No one objects then.

Well, there's the angle of time investment too. You almost made it sound like you guys spend so much time together that he couldn't maintain a romantic relationship, get married, and raise a family even if a hypothetical spouse would be cool with him continuing to associate with you in your earlier statements. :smallconfused:
tangent:
There's a reason bromances are called that, and it's not just as a homoerotic joke. For many people the underlying relationship under a proper romance and a bromance are the same, it's just the surface trappings that are different, like fistbumping instead of snogging and the like, though with the way that sex and romance are bound up together, it's hard to say whether snogging is sexual, romantic, or both. So having a bromance between people of opposite sexes just leads to the question of why they feel that way about one another but aren't interested in one another since we live in a society that doesn't accept that men and women can be friends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DgDmUHVto). It's changingg, sure, but it's still years away from reaching sea change levels or whatever the actual term is.

Stereotypes may work against you on cousins, actually. Hell, there's some places where they can even get married in the U.S.

[noparlpf]

Yeah. I guess that's sort of my original thing - I feel like we're trapped in the idea that a guy and a girl can't be "just friends", or if they are it can't be a serious important relationship. So obviously if we're close we must be sleeping together, or want to sleep together, or want to sleep together and are in denial about it, or something. Which means our relationship is a threat to any romantic partner. Right.

Sometimes I wish we could just fake some records, you know? Tell people we're cousins or something. No one objects then.

Hm. I'm in a similar spot, in that lots of people either think a friend and I are dating (despite everything we say, including that we're both on the asexual spectrum) or keep saying we should, but it doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you. I'm not really sure what to suggest. I'd tend to just say "ignore them, people are dumb" and "if somebody is bothered by your friendship then they're not right for a romantic relationship anyway", but that might be hard for you.
You could just tell people you're cousins. That's actually a brilliant idea. Why would you need fake records? If somebody doesn't believe that either, then clearly they won't believe anything you say, and you should just ignore them.

[Aedilred]

Stereotypes may work against you on cousins, actually. Hell, there's some places where they can even get married in the U.S.
I think being able to marry cousins is the rule globally, rather than the exception.

[WarKitty]

Hm. I'm in a similar spot, in that lots of people either think a friend and I are dating (despite everything we say, including that we're both on the asexual spectrum) or keep saying we should, but it doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you. I'm not really sure what to suggest. I'd tend to just say "ignore them, people are dumb" and "if somebody is bothered by your friendship then they're not right for a romantic relationship anyway", but that might be hard for you.
You could just tell people you're cousins. That's actually a brilliant idea. Why would you need fake records? If somebody doesn't believe that either, then clearly they won't believe anything you say, and you should just ignore them.

I think...the thing is we both have family and communities that would look down on that, you know? Him more than me - we've had to do some sneaking because part of his family wouldn't believe that he wasn't a romantic partner and he didn't think he could deal with it. Even if we could find partners, neither of us would want to go around being thought of as a "cheater" for our relationship.

[noparlpf]

I think...the thing is we both have family and communities that would look down on that, you know? Him more than me - we've had to do some sneaking because part of his family wouldn't believe that he wasn't a romantic partner and he didn't think he could deal with it. Even if we could find partners, neither of us would want to go around being thought of as a "cheater" for our relationship.

Isn't them having an issue with something that's not even real more their problem? The only problem I can see for you is that you're worried about what other people think.

[WarKitty]

Isn't them having an issue with something that's not even real more their problem? The only problem I can see for you is that you're worried about what other people think.

Technically, yes. Practically, no. Because I think for the most part these are good people that I'd love to get to know. But because these sorts of assumptions are so prevalent, it means there's an extra step of having to correct people's thoughts of how society works.

It's kind of like being gay is, actually. Technically, it's other people's problem that they don't like it. Practically, it's still something you gotta deal with, because that's the society you live in. And it's a pain having to correct people all the time.

[Grinner]

@Warkitty: I'm going to echo Coidzor and point out that your relationship cannot last regardless of social conventions. People only have so much time, and as responsibilities mount, they have to prioritize. Between working a job, keeping the wife happy, picking the kids up from daycare, and taking a few hours for "me" time, when will he have time for you?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I think being able to marry cousins is the rule globally, rather than the exception.

That's why they call it bunking cousins.

[Lissou]

So this is going to be a long thought-dump, not sure how much I'm asking for advice and how much I'm just whining about society.

I finally have it - the sort of relationship I really want. At least one of them. And I know it can't last. Why? Not because there's anything wrong with either of us, but because we're not romantic partners. I'm not his girlfriend; he's not my boyfriend. He wants a wife and kids someday. What'll happen to our cuddles and hugs and nights curled up talking then? I'm just an old roommate after all, and he's a guy and I'm a girl.

It frustrates me. It frustrates me knowing that most people won't be able to see our relationship as it is. He's a guy, I'm a girl, the relationship must be sexual. It frustrates me knowing that people assume we're a romantic couple every time we go somewhere. It frustrates both of us because it looks like we're "cheating" if we want to talk to a potential romantic target. It frustrates me because it slaps the "heterosexual" label on me. And ittathfrustrates me most of all there really is just no way to keep a relationship I value so dearly without my being a threat to any potential partner.

It's a deep, intimate, valuable relationship - but one that lacks any social standing or respect. One that we can't really talk about without people nodding and winking because the reality of it is just too hard to believe. And one that time and distance are probably going to tear apart, because "just good friends" isn't a real status in our society.

There is one form of bond between a male and a female that people don't assume is sexual, and that's family. Telling people it's like that should help them understand and stop winking. Tell people he's (like) your brother. Unless you find the idea repelling for some reason. Very close friends are a form of family, in a lot of people's minds, and adoptive families exist.
When either of you gets a partner, make sure to explain to that person that you have a sibling relationship and you care about it a lot. Any partner who can't respect that isn't a good match for you. When you start dating something, you don't expect them to stop hanging out with their family, at least not entirely. Sure, if either of you moves in with the partner, you can't really tag along as the roommate, you'd be a bit third wheel. But from the other side of things, I know people who moved in with their partner, and the partner had a roommate, and the roommate stayed, and they lived like that for a while, so it can happen too.

[WarKitty]

There is one form of bond between a male and a female that people don't assume is sexual, and that's family. Telling people it's like that should help them understand and stop winking. Tell people he's (like) your brother. Unless you find the idea repelling for some reason. Very close friends are a form of family, in a lot of people's minds, and adoptive families exist.
When either of you gets a partner, make sure to explain to that person that you have a sibling relationship and you care about it a lot. Any partner who can't respect that isn't a good match for you. When you start dating something, you don't expect them to stop hanging out with their family, at least not entirely. Sure, if either of you moves in with the partner, you can't really tag along as the roommate, you'd be a bit third wheel. But from the other side of things, I know people who moved in with their partner, and the partner had a roommate, and the roommate stayed, and they lived like that for a while, so it can happen too.

I don't find it repelling so much as I find the idea typically not believed. I guess in my area "like a brother" is just considered a synonym for that awful "friendzone" idea. Because of course any heterosexual male is interested in sex with any female they're close to.

The ideal for me would of course be to form a strong friendship with his partner as well. But that would depend on her.

[Form]

I'm not sure telling people you're family when the two of you are cuddling etc. is such a good idea. People might make other assumptions instead, but maybe I'm just being overly paranoid here.

And to be honest, I can understand if people still assume there's more between you and your close friend than mere friendship even if you tell them otherwise. People tend to play a lot of social games and I'd understand if others would assume that though there is no official relationship, there is something blooming. This is also something that seems to happen frequently.

[Glass Mouse]

Seconding that lying about family or otherwise is not a good idea. It might be effective in the short term, but the moment any prospective partner discovers the truth, they'll start wondering what else you're lying about. Never a good starting point.


Aaah. Ah. Ha... Ow. I... Um. Okay. I am kinda in need to talk to someone about advice on how to deal win a breakup after a long relationship. I really would like company and advice. Is there anyone willing to talk to me? Please? Please.

A little late, but I wrote a long post on the subject (from the dumper's perspetive) a few pages back: Might be something helpful there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15486909&postcount=175).

[Admiral Squish]

I suppose it'd probably be a good idea to vent this somewhere.

So, I had a weird thing goin' on with this girl from the internet. Many years ago, we were 'together' as much as one can be on the internet, but she went silent for multiple years. Then relatively recently (a few months back) she reappeared, and started talking again. We got caught up and things started to get involved once again. I was, initially, wary, because my experiences with online dating have been... rough, to say the least. But as time went on, we gt more and more intimate, eventually falling into old habits. Started discussing arranging a meeting of some sort, and such.

Now, she's kinda accident-prone, and when she went silent for a few weeks, I was nervous. then she came back and we had one conversation, she said she'd gotten T-boned in a car, and the hospital wasn't letting her use her cell, so she couldn't talk for a while. So, the next period of silence was a bit easier to take. It's a couple months till I hear from her again, and when I DO get in touch with her, she tells me she got a local boyfriend. Of course, I don't wanna be that guy who tries to push 'em apart. But the girl was a great friend, and I really wanted to keep talking to her, but now it's just incredibly awkward. Now when I try to say hi, she disappears.

[The Rose Dragon]

You know you've lived a pathetic life when your first reaction to realizing you are in love is "oh crap not again".

[Aedilred]

I suppose it'd probably be a good idea to vent this somewhere.

So, I had a weird thing goin' on with this girl from the internet. Many years ago, we were 'together' as much as one can be on the internet, but she went silent for multiple years. Then relatively recently (a few months back) she reappeared, and started talking again. We got caught up and things started to get involved once again. I was, initially, wary, because my experiences with online dating have been... rough, to say the least. But as time went on, we gt more and more intimate, eventually falling into old habits. Started discussing arranging a meeting of some sort, and such.

Now, she's kinda accident-prone, and when she went silent for a few weeks, I was nervous. then she came back and we had one conversation, she said she'd gotten T-boned in a car, and the hospital wasn't letting her use her cell, so she couldn't talk for a while. So, the next period of silence was a bit easier to take. It's a couple months till I hear from her again, and when I DO get in touch with her, she tells me she got a local boyfriend. Of course, I don't wanna be that guy who tries to push 'em apart. But the girl was a great friend, and I really wanted to keep talking to her, but now it's just incredibly awkward. Now when I try to say hi, she disappears.

This sort of thing can be difficult. Often friendships just... come to an end. Usually because one party doesn't have enough time to devote to maintaining it, or they realise they don't have anything/enough in common any more, or the parties just don't see or speak to each other for so long through no particular fault of anybody's that it would just be weird and awkward to meet up again. It happens to best buddies and to people who barely know each other, if life drives them apart. It's often a shame, but just the way it is.

Back in the day, ooh, let's say... 2006, we had a way of dealing with this situation which was the Christmas Card List. Every Christmas you sent off a card to all the people you were still technically friends with but hadn't spoken to in an increasingly long time to remind them you were still alive and had thought of them when you checked your list of people you knew, and they reciprocated. If you actually wanted to re-establish more contact you could include a letter (personalised, not one of the round-robins) which they could either respond to or not. All thoroughly satisfactory.

Now though we have the internet and social networking and I'm starting to think that what should in theory be an improvement is actually making things worse in this respect. It fosters an impression of constant availability which
simply may not be accurate, or at least sufficiently inaccurate as to lead to misunderstandings. It might be that she does have time for you in theory, but you've slipped down her list of priorities since she's got a boyfriend and in practice it's just difficult to fit you in. Trying to instigate chats with her (which is the medium where I assume she's disappearing) might appear like nagging, or just something that she knows is going to take more than five minutes and that's really all she has right now etc..

It's obviously complicated by your previous sort-of-relationship with her, since that has the potential to cause problems with her current partner. A lot of people are just uncomfortable about their partners having anything to do with their ex-partners, and an even equally large number of people are sufficiently aware to that possibility that they cut off contact anyway just to remove potential causes for concern. Her saying she has a boyfriend the last(?) time you spoke to her might have been an attempt to warn you off for that sort of reason.

The best advice I can give is to try to revert to the "Christmas card" approach which makes things a bit easier to handle at both ends. Give her a few weeks, or months even, and then send her a friendly old-style missive (email would be fine; it's the content that counts) - a greeting, regret at not having spoken, enquiry after her wellbeing and update on your situation, and so forth - then it allows her to respond in her own time on her own terms. If she does, you can start re-establishing your personal relationship with her. If she doesn't, then that's a shame, but there's nothing you can really do in that case anyway.

Exception: If she's one of those people who actually genuinely really does want to get back in contact but is so hopelessly disorganised that they never reply to emails, never answer their phone, get lost on the way to the front gate, etc. then I have no advice. There is no hope for such people. (I have a couple of friends like that, who I love dearly, and am arguably one such person myself, but all the same...)

[Jormengand]

Hrmm...

At next opportunity, I'm going to ask out the guy mentioned earlier. I would say "Wish me luck," but luck is for people who aren't good enough to do it anyway. Wish me skill instead.

Now, where'd my headband of alluring charisma +6 go?

[Philemonite]

Hrmm...

At next opportunity, I'm going to ask out the guy mentioned earlier. I would say "Wish me luck," but luck is for people who aren't good enough to do it anyway. Wish me skill instead.

Now, where'd my headband of alluring charisma +6 go?

Don't forget you get +2 from aid another action. You know I'm always there for you.:smallbiggrin:
Also, didn't wanna say this in LGBTAtiP thread, but major attitude improvement, keep up the good work.:smalltongue:

[Jormengand]

Don't forget you get +2 from aid another action. You know I'm always there for you.:smallbiggrin:
Also, didn't wanna say this in LGBTAtiP thread, but major attitude improvement, keep up the good work.:smalltongue:

Morale OP. Wizards plz nerf. :p

[Admiral Squish]

On a dating site, is it shallow to rule out a girl if her profile's full of spelling errors?

[The Rose Dragon]

On a dating site, is it shallow to rule out a girl if her profile's full of spelling errors?

Sort of, but I don't think anyone will hold it against you. It doesn't necessarily mean the girl is bad at spelling in general, just that she was not willing to put too much effort into the dating site profile. I know that when I post from a tablet, and I'm not too invested in what I'm posting, I make several spelling errors that I rarely bother to correct.

[noparlpf]

On a dating site, is it shallow to rule out a girl if her profile's full of spelling errors?

Nah, I'd consider that the obvious thing to do. I can tolerate one or two recurring errors ("boredum", ugh), but not illiteracy. Edit: That came off as kind of harsh. I'd say it depends on how bad her spelling is, whether it's likely to bother you in the future, and how interesting she seems otherwise. In my case, excessively poor spelling would bother me a lot in the future. (My mother is an English teacher and grammar- and spelling-sniping have kind of been ingrained in me.)

[Rawhide]

http://i.qkme.me/3u8a8k.jpg

[Verte]

On a dating site, is it shallow to rule out a girl if her profile's full of spelling errors?

Well, if you don't mind opinions from someone who doesn't post in this thread often and doesn't do online dating, I would say that it depends. I mean, what is the actual content of her profile like? Do the errors make it virtually unreadable? Or are they more occasional occurrences? Is it that she writes exclusively in text speak? I would also add that I try not to judge a person's intelligence, insight, and critical thinking abilities solely on spelling or grammar, if only because I've known some very interesting, insightful people who did not have perfect spelling. That is, if she seems like an interesting person, then maybe it is a little shallow. On the other hand, if it bothers you, I would say that it's perfectly acceptable to be a little shallow when it comes to dating. I mean, I'm shallow about certain things.

[Coidzor]

On a dating site, is it shallow to rule out a girl if her profile's full of spelling errors?

Only if you tell her that. Wait, no, that's just crass, sorry.